Would a higher nitrogen flow rate cause unconsciousness to occur faster or does that not matter?

[Butterflyfree]

I accidentally deleted my post asking this where others replied. I didn't get the chance to see the replies.

 

[viniboi9]

I also was wondering this. But just in case IIRC a high flow rate can cause a burst lung which would be extremely painful

 

[Butterflyfree]

I also was wondering this. But just in case IIRC a high flow rate can cause a burst lung which would be extremely painful

I don't think you can get a burst lung from a nitrogen and exit bag? Where did you get this information from?

 

[Hyd999]

More flow means more noise and also means the tank will drain faster.

Even if you set the flow on max you wont die any faster. The extra flow will cause the gas to escape from the bag faster. It wont enter your body any faster.

 

[Itsallover123]

I don't think you can get a burst lung from a nitrogen and exit bag? Where did you get this information from?

I believe it's the case in mechanical ventilation, so as long as there isn't too much air pressure going directly into your lungs via a mask or something then it's probably fine. Although you wouldn't want the gas to finish too soon so a lower flow would be ideal

 

[Butterflyfree]

More flow means more noise and also means the tank will drain faster.

Even if you set the flow on max you wont die any faster. The extra flow will cause the gas to escape from the bag faster. It wont enter your body any faster.

Are you sure that higher flow wouldn't cause you to pass out quicker?

 

[Itsallover123]

Are you sure that higher flow wouldn't cause you to pass out quicker?

just saw your other post and I'm sorry that you're going through so much a higher flow would expel gases from the bag quicker but that would waste some nitrogen and might make the supply run out too soon.

 

[bennay]

I did some additional research on this, from what I read a flow rate of 15-20 liters is recommended to avoid accumulation of co2 in the bag which would/could cause uncomfortably if too high.

 

[Butterflyfree]

I did some additional research on this, from what I read a flow rate of 15-20 liters is recommended to avoid accumulation of co2 in the bag which would/could cause uncomfortably if too high.

@bennay a higher flow rate would flush out the CO2 that much better.

just saw your other post and I'm sorry that you're going through so much a higher flow would expel gases from the bag quicker but that would waste some nitrogen and might make the supply run out too soon.

@Itsallover123 thank you for your sentiments. Would the higher flow rate cause unconsciousness sooner?

More flow means more noise and also means the tank will drain faster.

Even if you set the flow on max you wont die any faster. The extra flow will cause the gas to escape from the bag faster. It wont enter your body any faster.

@Hyd999 Are you sure?

 

[bennay]

@bennay a higher flow rate would flush out the CO2 that much better.

I know, but I'm pointing out that's all it's for. It's not going to make you go unconscious any faster.

 

[FromGermany]

More remaining O2, also due to exhaled air, which has at least 14 % O2, makes unconsciousness slower. It's not only about CO2, it's also about removing O2 or at least diluting it. A quick low level of O2 makes one quick unconscious, and low flow rates have been the reason for failure, because people didn't go unconscious so fast they expected and then SI kicked in while they have been conscious. In addition, a low flow rate will not have that positive pressure to avoid that O2 will come in through the neck, where countless but no real specific advices are given to make the bag not too tight or 2-finger-tight or whatsoever. It's vague.

There is a reason, why EEBD systems are working with a very high flow.

The "crunch the bag out of air" is anything but to ensure, there is no O2 remaining in the bag. Of course, there is still some air into it. If you pull the with N2 filled bag down, it's impossible that not again some air will replace some N2. I personal would wait at least 10 more seconds before the first deep breath, so that the flow will reduce the percentage of O2 as most as possible.

CO2 is very important, but the whole system based on the lack of O2, and this includes the speed of unconscious. A higher flow will dilute or remove not only the CO2 from the exhaled air but also the 14 % O2 in the exhaled air.

 

[Butterflyfree]

I know, but I'm pointing out that's all it's for. It's not going to make you go unconscious any faster.

Should a larger tank be used then with more gas then the flow rate increased?
@Greenberg I know you posted a reply on a previous thread I made but I deleted the thread by accident before I could read the replies. Is a higher flow better for flushing 02 out and would it cause unconsciousness faster? Of course I know more gas would be needed. Would regular recommended flow work just as effective?

 

[Greenberg]

The only parameter to consider is the "dead space."

Dead space is the initial volume of air that needs to be displaced to create a wholly nitrogen-saturated environment. In the case of a bag, the dead space is large and would benefit from an initial "rush" of nitrogen to displace the air. In contrast, a small mask such as an oxygen mask would require very little nitrogen to flush out the initial pocket of air within, so a high flow rate is not required.

In terms of an ongoing flow rate during CBT, I believe 15 LPM would be sufficient. Any more, in my opinion, would be a waste and loss to the environment. Please bear in mind that the average person consumes no more than 7.5 liters of air per minute; as such, there is no question that a 15 LPM flow rate would recreate a positive pressure environment.

Having stated the above, I do respect @FromGermany remarks for a 20 LPM flow rate.

 

[Butterflyfree]

More remaining O2, also due to exhaled air, which has at least 14 % O2, makes unconsciousness slower. It's not only about CO2, it's also about removing O2 or at least diluting it. A quick low level of O2 makes one quick unconscious, and low flow rates have been the reason for failure, because people didn't go unconscious so fast they expected and then SI kicked in while they have been conscious. In addition, a low flow rate will not have that positive pressure to avoid that O2 will come in through the neck, where countless but no real specific advices are given to make the bag not too tight or 2-finger-tight or whatsoever. It's vague.

There is a reason, why EEBD systems are working with a very high flow.

The "crunch the bag out of air" is anything but to ensure, there is no O2 remaining in the bag. Of course, there is still some air into it. If you pull the with N2 filled bag down, it's impossible that not again some air will replace some N2. I personal would wait at least 10 more seconds before the first deep breath, so that the flow will reduce the percentage of O2 as most as possible.

CO2 is very important, but the whole system based on the lack of O2, and this includes the speed of unconscious. A higher flow will dilute or remove not only the CO2 from the exhaled air but also the 14 % O2 in the exhaled air.

The only parameter to consider is the "dead space."

Dead space is the initial volume of air that needs to be displaced to create a wholly nitrogen-saturated environment. In the case of a bag, the dead space is large and would benefit from an initial "rush" of nitrogen to displace the air. In contrast, a small mask such as an oxygen mask would require very little nitrogen to flush out the initial pocket of air within, so a high flow rate is not required.

In terms of an ongoing flow rate during CBT, I believe 15 LPM would be sufficient. Any more, in my opinion, would be a waste and loss to the environment. Please bear in mind that the average person consumes no more than 7.5 liters of air per minute; as such, there is no question that a 15 LPM flow rate would recreate a positive pressure environment.

Having stated the above, I do respect @FromGermany remarks for a 20 LPM flow rate.

@Greenberg I'm confused so would a higher flow be best to ensure that the 02 and c02 is flushed out and uncontiousness comes quicker? How can one know if they are leaving enough space open at bottom of bag or too much space? I have a 20 cu canister of nitrogen.
I have an argon regulator that will be set to 25 or 30 this will be sufficient?

 

[Greenberg]

@Greenberg I'm confused so would a higher flow be best to ensure that the 02 and c02 is flushed out and uncontiousness comes quicker? How can one know if they are leaving enough space open at bottom of bag or too much space? I have a 20 cu canister of nitrogen.
I have an argon regulator that will be set to 25 or 30 this will be sufficient?

As mentioned in my reply: For a bag setup, a higher flow rate would flush out the initial dead space gases quicker. Thereafter, you have the choice to reduce the nitrogen flow. If you have a larger canister (i.e., more than 20 cf) then just leaving it at the higher flow rate is fine.

The spacing for the gap would require some trials by you to determine if the outflow is adequate without over-pressurizing the bag causing discomfort. Please understand I do not have your setup and would not be able to provide you with a definitive answer. If were to guess, the gap would need to be slighter larger. By how much, it really depends on the size of the bag and your neck for a given flow rate. Again, trial and error is your best answer to your question.

For the proper flow rate through an argon regulator, you would have to perform the requisite calculation.

Beyond this post, I do not see how I can be of further assistance.

Best, G

 

[Butterflyfree]

@Greenberg Thank you for your replies. On a last note.. the required calculation for my regulator is 25-30. Is just scrunching the air all out of the bag before turning on the gas and pulling the bag down not enough to get rid of the dead space?

 

[Greenberg]

From recall, I thought the 15 LPM of nitrogen equivalent was 12.5 LPM on an argon flow meter. My recall might be wrong; you may wish to check this. There are calculations presented on my blog.

When you "wear" the bag, it will opens up, thereby drawing air from the environment. Unfortunately, the dead space does not go away.

 

[Butterflyfree]

From recall, I thought the 15 LPM of nitrogen equivalent was 12.5 LPM on an argon flow meter. My recall might be wrong; you may wish to check this. There are calculations presented on my blog.

When you "wear" the bag, it will opens up, thereby drawing air from the environment. Unfortunately, the dead space does not go away.

@Greenberg no it's between 25 to 30 for my regulator. If I'm understanding correctly you are saying the nitro flow doesn't flush out the CO2 buildup?

 

[FromGermany]

If one does not a research at all available sources and cases, studies, this will end up in a permanent brain damage like with the Scuba instruction guide, which is very dangerous and should be removed. The cheap ice mask is sealing nothing and the stage will be anything but airtight, put it in the mask with some piece of butter, what?!, and after unconsciousness the mouthpiece will flop out of the mouth and that's the way, brain damage work.

The nice person who has promoted the exit bag method for months and months as it is the Holy Grail with just an exit bag and gas, at then end, he did not use this method and was going to Swiss. It's one thing to say, how easy and fine everything is, so that other people shall use it, but if one is not ready to use the method for his own, then for me it's a signal to research more, what I have done, and so many things, which have been discussed on this forum as the real thing, can be debunked, because they are too risky.

I really don't understand, why people take this serious matter so easy. Just look at Humphry's insane old two helium tanks instructions video. If you are not over 70 or terminally ill without any power, the chances of failure are 80 % or even more with that "guide" and not because of any probably dilluted Helium.

There are probably many people with brain damage in the care homes, who failed with this method, like this is the case with hanging. It's not like SN or N. In this case you can not say later, oh well, if I did that or that, it would have been worked. It's too late then. This method was designed for people who are almost dead or so old, that there is not so much SI or physical resistance. It's not made for younger people. Younger people have to consider many more things and true knowlegde from all available world wide sources, this is the real thing to have a good chance, that it will work, the only one, if you are not 70+ or terminally ill without any power.

 

[Greenberg]

@Greenberg no it's between 25 to 30 for my regulator. If I'm understanding correctly you are saying the nitro flow doesn't flush out the CO2 buildup?

I am sorry that I am not more helpful. Best, G

 

[Butterflyfree]

If one does not a research at all available sources and cases, studies, this will end up in a permanent brain damage like with the Scuba instruction guide, which is very dangerous and should be removed. The cheap ice mask is sealing nothing and the stage will be anything but airtight, put it in the mask with some piece of butter, what?!, and after unconsciousness the mouthpiece will flop out of the mouth and that's the way, brain damage work.

The nice person who has promoted the exit bag method for months and months as it is the Holy Grail with just an exit bag and gas, at then end, he did not use this method and was going to Swiss. It's one thing to say, how easy and fine everything is, so that other people shall use it, but if one is not ready to use the method for his own, then for me it's a signal to research more, what I have done, and so many things, which have been discussed on this forum as the real thing, can be debunked, because they are too risky.

I really don't understand, why people take this serious matter so easy. Just look at Humphry's insane old two helium tanks instructions video. If you are not over 70 or terminally ill without any power, the chances of failure are 80 % or even more with that "guide" and not because of any probably dilluted Helium.

There are probably many people with brain damage in the care homes, who failed with this method, like this is the case with hanging. It's not like SN or N. In this case you can not say later, oh well, if I did that or that, it would have been worked. It's too late then. This method was designed for people who are almost dead or so old, that there is not so much SI or physical resistance. It's not made for younger people. Younger people have to consider many more things and true knowlegde from all available world wide sources, this is the real thing to have a good chance, that it will work, the only one, if you are not 70+ or terminally ill without any power.

@FromGermany I am very ill and weak but I'm 56 not 70 and I'm not terminally ill. Final exit have guides that use this method, they have witnessed many people who CTB and are there with the people who use this method. From what I have been told not all are old weak and terminal. Why do you think one has to be old and weak to use this method? (Final exit will be with me on the date I have chosen)

 

[bennay]

If one does not a research at all available sources and cases, studies, this will end up in a permanent brain damage like with the Scuba instruction guide, which is very dangerous and should be removed. The cheap ice mask is sealing nothing and the stage will be anything but airtight, put it in the mask with some piece of butter, what?!, and after unconsciousness the mouthpiece will flop out of the mouth and that's the way, brain damage work.

The nice person who has promoted the exit bag method for months and months as it is the Holy Grail with just an exit bag and gas, at then end, he did not use this method and was going to Swiss. It's one thing to say, how easy and fine everything is, so that other people shall use it, but if one is not ready to use the method for his own, then for me it's a signal to research more, what I have done, and so many things, which have been discussed on this forum as the real thing, can be debunked, because they are too risky.

I really don't understand, why people take this serious matter so easy. Just look at Humphry's insane old two helium tanks instructions video. If you are not over 70 or terminally ill without any power, the chances of failure are 80 % or even more with that "guide" and not because of any probably dilluted Helium.

There are probably many people with brain damage in the care homes, who failed with this method, like this is the case with hanging. It's not like SN or N. In this case you can not say later, oh well, if I did that or that, it would have been worked. It's too late then. This method was designed for people who are almost dead or so old, that there is not so much SI or physical resistance. It's not made for younger people. Younger people have to consider many more things and true knowlegde from all available world wide sources, this is the real thing to have a good chance, that it will work, the only one, if you are not 70+ or terminally ill without any power.

At any age or any health, you're depriving your body of oxygen in which it needs for survival and this method will be fatal unless mistakes are made. Too many think it's just putting together the set up and that's it.
For starters:
- helium needs to be off the table completely for this method as you can't be sure if purity anymore.
-Do NOT buy cheap scuba gear
-You are not supposed to leave the mouthpiece on the regulator
-The use of butter or lubricant is to help put the regulator in the mask AFTER the mouthpiece is removed.
- be sure you have enough gas to last up to 60 minutes
- Be aware of what could happen during unconsciousness
- I can't stress this enough… do your research!

This method REQUIRES attention to detail, careful planning, and full knowledge of how it works in order to be successful and should not be taken as a "quick & easy" backup method just because the supplies are easy to obtain.

 

[Butterflyfree]

At any age or any health, you're depriving your body of oxygen in which it needs for survival and this method will be fatal unless mistakes are made. Too many think it's just putting together the set up and that's it.
For starters:
- helium needs to be off the table completely for this method as you can't be sure if purity anymore.
-Do NOT buy cheap scuba gear
-You are not supposed to leave the mouthpiece on the regulator
-The use of butter or lubricant is to help put the regulator in the mask AFTER the mouthpiece is removed.
- be sure you have enough gas to last up to 60 minutes
- Be aware of what could happen during unconsciousness
- I can't stress this enough… do your research!

This method REQUIRES attention to detail, careful planning, and full knowledge of how it works in order to be successful and should not be taken as a "quick & easy" backup method just because the supplies are easy to obtain.

@bennay Final exit guides have never experienced a failure with this method. Using the tried and true nitrogen tank 20 cu and the exit bag. Everything is checked before hand to make sure is operating correctly and there are no leaks. But yet I'm still afraid of failure and I guess that's normal.

 

[bennay]

@bennay Final exit guides have never experienced a failure with this method. Using the tried and true nitrogen tank 20 cu and the exit bag. Everything is checked before hand to make sure is operating correctly and there are no leaks. But yet I'm still afraid of failure and I guess that's normal.

Hey, Im right there with ya. I think that the concern of failure is generally normal with any method.

 

[Butterflyfree]

Hey, Im right there with ya. I think that the concern of failure is generally normal with any method.

@bennay I think @FromGermany is is thinking that an older feeble weak person is less likely to struggle or suffer from SI then a younger stronger person. But I'm not sure of the research behind this.

 

[bennay]

@bennay I think @FromGermany is is thinking that an older feeble weak person is less likely to struggle or suffer from SI then a younger stronger person. But I'm not sure of the research behind this.

I think @FromGermany is right, an older/terminally ill person would be less likely to struggle or experience heightened SI. Thats not to say that a younger/healthy person couldn't die from this method at all. Again, research and proper planning is imperative. I, myself, am apart of the younger generation so I feel entitled to say that most in my generation do the simplest of searching, take information at face value and run with it, and in a situation like this, that type of mentality is what will cause failure with severe consequences.

 

[Butterflyfree]

I think @FromGermany is right, an older/terminally ill person would be less likely to struggle or experience heightened SI. Thats not to say that a younger/healthy person couldn't die from this method at all. Again, research and proper planning is imperative. I, myself, am apart of the younger generation so I feel entitled to say that most in my generation do the simplest of searching, take information at face value and run with it, and in a situation like this, that type of mentality is what will cause failure with severe consequences.

@bennay ahhh I see. I am 56 and in very bad health and illnesses. I am weak, but not that weak.

 

[FromGermany]

"Final exit guides have never experienced a failure with this method."

No, they have never reported a failure with this method. This is the difference. It's impossible, that there are no failures with this method, because no method is 100 % failsafe. And I am very confident, that guides have to sign some kind of secrecy agreements due to legal reasons.

I will use this method for myself, but after reasearching everything, I believe, I have a pretty good view on all that things and will not go that way without considering everything.

There is a reason, why they don't talk about massive convulsvions, which can ruin the whole set. They not even admit, they have seen them. And why they remind repeatedly the benefit of gas for an autopsy? They also suggest to remove the materials.

The moment after I have seen Humphry's old insane Helium video, which is so venturesome, I knew, that only the half story will be told.

The convulsions are a massive problem with this method. If they would not be there, without convulsions then the fairy tale video from Humphy or the 0 % failure narrative become true.

A study from RAF Institute of Aviation Medicine has proven, that on most occasions inhaling Nitrogen is accompanied by a generalized convulsion. In all that written books no word about that, how to handle this. Not a single word!

On top life threatening things like the cheap Scuba Ice Mask guide are published on the internet, translated from German to English, which will not work in almost all cases, but will leave all people with brain damage.

Younger people with good health will not only face the convulsions but also a huge SI.

I also don't like the truth, that it's not so easy to ensure, everything will work fine in all cases. It doesn't matter to me, if it works in 60 % or 80 % of all cases. For me the set must have a chance of 95 %. 100 % is not possible. Who says that, is a liar.

But I will not risk my health and a failure due to hearsay instructions, half truths, life threatening instructions or whatsoever.

Keep that in mind. An independent study without any benefit of the outcome of the study. This is the real thing and not a book from an organisation only.

Convulsions are the problem here and this problem must be fixed.

Of course, if they say to you, you have to fix your upper body, you would ask "Why? I thought it is always so easy as falling asleep?"

It is, but it's also very easy, that convulsions can destroy the set, and then one has brain damage.

 

[mlha]

@FromGermany

How can convulsions ruin the set, if you'll have a full face scuba mask with 5 straps and you'll be laying on the floor so nothing can't be knocked down? And if there's a problem with arms moving around, wouldn't putting them through a noose behind your back be enough?

And what about SI, why should it be strong? Shouldn't this method be similar to fainting?

 

[FromGermany]

The most reported failures of this method in this forum are due to SI. After unconsciousness SI is still able to act partial as if you are consciousness. In many cases people woke up, holding the bag in their hands or just ripped it off.

I am also considering an expensive Scuba set. The only concern I have is, that after unconsciousness the seal is no longer airtight due to the change of face muscles, and the demand valve must be very sensitive. The last thing one can test, the first not.

With Scuba you can lay down on the contrary to the bag, correct. This is a huge advantage, because I believe, being in a total peaceful mood with CTB is one way to reduce SI or to practise it again and again e.g. with pressured air and breath with it to make the use normal for the mind.

The hose from the mask to the tank is not that long. In the famous Scuba case his upper body was taped to the bed. His arms have been free, and if you look at the picture, he was a little bit lucky, that his right arm did not touched the hose.

I personal would not fix my arms behind my back, because my opinion on that is, it could trigger SI more. A more soft version can be to fix the hands at the belt loops at the front of the trouser.

The airtightness is my concern. It must hold for at least 10 minutes, and the demand valve must be very sensitive for shallow breating.