Will kill my self because of how I look

[anyoneshorizon]

I probably won't do it now.
Or very soon.
And I won't let it stop me from reaching my dream.

But when I do kill myself that would be the root of it.
The consequences of not liking how I look/ being ugly
I will never feel good enough, I will feel alone, I will feel ugly.

I try my best to ignore this insecurity and try to have good future but it does stop me from really enjoying life.

I hope this feeling changes.

P.s. this is not meant to be a poem. The way I spaced the sentences make it look like stanzas

 

[botch3d]

May I ask , are you female or male ? How old are you ? What don't you like specifically about your looks

 

[goodnighttime]

I am sorry that you don't like the way you look. I experience this as well and have many insecurities... have you tried to reach out to someone before to talk about it? Let me know if you want to talk.

 

[Someone123]

Trouble with looks can lead t so much abuse from others. I have seen people improve their looks so much by different haircuts, clothes, acne treatments, working out, and a big one that many peopel don't realize- chnaging their habitual facial expressions- this changes the muscles in a person's face and can completely chanage how they look. Some youtibe videos show how to improve looks through exercising the msucles in a person's face- there are about eighty of them. If you look up ":face exercises" on youtibe there are many videos on this. Some people with really big noses or other features people oftebn think of as less atractive can becomne so much more attractive with these types of exercises.

 

[Wisdom3_1-9]

I'm sorry you're going through this. I know that physical appearance can be the root cause of a myriad of issues for people.

I don't know much about your specific situation, so I apologize for my ignorance. (And please don't feel the need to share if you don't want to.) I'm aware that such issues can involve variations from norms that people consider unattractive as well as health conditions that cause drastic changes in appearance.

Are there options available to you to change your appearance? If it is something that is such a source of sadness for you, would altering it help to reverse or stem any of the negative results? I'm not one to tell people "Look better to feel better." I do think that we can celebrate all kinds of appearances. But if your appearance is affecting your wellbeing, it's certainly worth considering.

You may also consider therapy to help with matters of self-perception and self-image, though that often does not affect how *others* interact with you and treat you.

Again, I am new to your situation, so I do not know what you have already done to try to resolve your situation. I just want to state that if this is a problem to which there is a solution other than ctb, it might be worth pursuing. Life can be painful. But many who find a way to overcome the pain find joy. I would not want you to feel deprived of that opportunity if it was available to you.

 

[jodes2]

I'm sorry you want to CTB you know it's possible to find love even if you aren't that attractive, it just takes getting out there and meeting more people

 

[FuneralCry]

I guess that after all, there is simply nothing fair about this life and I imagine that what you go through must be hard to deal with, but I wish you the best.

 

[Nirrend]

I probably won't do it now.
Or very soon.
And I won't let it stop me from reaching my dream.

But when I do kill myself that would be the root of it.
The consequences of not liking how I look/ being ugly
I will never feel good enough, I will feel alone, I will feel ugly.

I try my best to ignore this insecurity and try to have good future but it does stop me from really enjoying life.

I hope this feeling changes.

P.s. this is not meant to be a poem. The way I spaced the sentences make it look like stanzas

Hi sweet @anyoneshorizon

I'm sorry you're suffering so much, no one deserves such things ❤

When it comes to the physical, it's terrible because deep down, there's not really much to do except have to live with it... it makes you feel like you're condemned for life, living an injustice, being bad and wanting to destroy this prison, body envelope, hurting yourself as well so you don't have to look like what you look like anymore...

Anyway, I imagine you feel all this and I'm sorry ❤ I've always found myself ugly and these feelings are deeply devastating...

I'll be honest and you know it, there is no magic bullet for physical appearance.

Except maybe for the quality of the skin, the hair, the muscles, which can indeed be worked on, but except for surgery, you can't change the physical appearance

I don't want to talk about trivialities, but I would like to talk to you about one thing

Physical appearance is really only a small factor in physical attraction.

1) First of all, you should know that studies have been done on young children (born a few days ago). The studies show that the baby's gaze is mainly focused on faces with common and mathematically predictable, normal proportions.

Simply put, they like prototypical human faces.

It implies that they like it when the nose is at a mathematically logical distance from the mouth and eyes, that the eyes are so many cm apart and so on...

This attraction is present in the neurological circuitry of infants to enable them to recognise a human conspecific very quickly in order to be quickly protected and cared for. These neural bases still function in adulthood.

What is important to understand here is that a statistically consistent, prototypical face does not mean that the face is beautiful. Neurons can become strongly activated in front of a mathematically prototypical face but without the person being beautiful or ugly. And yet, this prototypical face (beautiful or ugly) attracts attention and reassures.

2) physical appearance cannot be changed but the way we match our appearance with accessories can be

You can choose to wear styles that you like, to wear things that you can relate to. Even if you don't please everyone (because we will never please everyone) you will still please someone who recognises themselves in that style

3) If you don't like yourself, people won't like you

To put it simply, I'm sorry to speak ill of poor Ed Sheeran again, but subjectively, I find him very ugly, but he does please, doesn't he?

Why do you think so? Because he has a charisma, a sympathy, a sensitivity, a style of his own and because he is confident

In the neural bases, there are mirror neurons that are activated when we perform and also when we watch someone perform an action (gestuel, facial expressions...). These neurons are of great importance in empathy and the ability to mentally represent the mental states of others. In particular, to represent what someone says about themselves, the emotions they feel.

And this is the pattern that occurs: when we have a good self-esteem, we like ourselves and we can be proud of ourselves, attracted to ourselves

When someone likes himself, and someone looks at him, the mirror neurons are activated, we imagine the fact that the person likes himself, the pride felt, and we are attracted to him as much as he is attracted by himself.

Afterwards, there are also social explanations for this, we value people who are confident, who love themselves, so we will also be attracted to someone who loves himself for social reasons, but also for personal reasons (he evokes security, the beauty of the soul, a stable energy).

4) experiencing intimate moments, knowing someone, has a positive or negative effect on the perception of a person's beauty

By spending time with people (friends for example), we create intimate and unique moments, we see the flaws and strengths of the other.

If someone's personality is radiant, warm, fun, gentle. The initial perception of physical beauty can be reinforced and the person can be seen as even more beautiful than he or she was initially perceived to be

On the other hand, you can very well find someone beautiful because of his/her body and because the person is malicious, stupid, mean, dark... perceive them as uglier than initially

I'll stop, I'm talking too much

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Physical appearance matters, yes, I'd be lying to you if I said "no".

But physical appearance is simply a reference point in terms of attraction around which many phenomena are played out. Physical appearance plays the biggest role in the first impression: "He's handsome, well dressed, looks like this and like that".

And then, many factors come into play to tip the balance on perception (which, as a reminder, has never been anything other than subjective, because even if there is a mathematical calculation to objectively define beauty, only subjectivity allows us to feel someone's beauty).

Imagine a gauge, with "ugly" on the left, "beautiful" on the right. The first impression subjectively places the physical appearance on the gauge (e.g. more towards ugly, or more towards beautiful) and then, the other factors (mentioned above) will strongly influence the new perception that you have of the person

Again, I'm sorry you're suffering so much sweet @anyoneshorizon ❤

But I think it was important to talk to you about all this so that you don't think: "you are ugly and that's it". No, "you think you're ugly and you think that's it" ❤

Your pain is legitimate, I respect it and I think I would have said the same thing to myself in your place, but these factors are important to understand ❤

Don't be too hard on yourself ❤

I hope all this can help you to relativize and suffer less ❤

I wish you that things will get better ❤

Love ❤

 

[Unlucked]

Hi sweet @anyoneshorizon

I'm sorry you're suffering so much, no one deserves such things ❤

When it comes to the physical, it's terrible because deep down, there's not really much to do except have to live with it... it makes you feel like you're condemned for life, living an injustice, being bad and wanting to destroy this prison, body envelope, hurting yourself as well so you don't have to look like what you look like anymore...

Anyway, I imagine you feel all this and I'm sorry ❤ I've always found myself ugly and these feelings are deeply devastating...

I'll be honest and you know it, there is no magic bullet for physical appearance.

Except maybe for the quality of the skin, the hair, the muscles, which can indeed be worked on, but except for surgery, you can't change the physical appearance

I don't want to talk about trivialities, but I would like to talk to you about one thing

Physical appearance is really only a small factor in physical attraction.

1) First of all, you should know that studies have been done on young children (born a few days ago). The studies show that the baby's gaze is mainly focused on faces with common and mathematically predictable, normal proportions.

Simply put, they like prototypical human faces.

It implies that they like it when the nose is at a mathematically logical distance from the mouth and eyes, that the eyes are so many cm apart and so on...

This attraction is present in the neurological circuitry of infants to enable them to recognise a human conspecific very quickly in order to be quickly protected and cared for. These neural bases still function in adulthood.

What is important to understand here is that a statistically consistent, prototypical face does not mean that the face is beautiful. Neurons can become strongly activated in front of a mathematically prototypical face but without the person being beautiful or ugly. And yet, this prototypical face (beautiful or ugly) attracts attention and reassures.

2) physical appearance cannot be changed but the way we match our appearance with accessories can be

You can choose to wear styles that you like, to wear things that you can relate to. Even if you don't please everyone (because we will never please everyone) you will still please someone who recognises themselves in that style

3) If you don't like yourself, people won't like you

To put it simply, I'm sorry to speak ill of poor Ed Sheeran again, but subjectively, I find him very ugly, but he does please, doesn't he?

Why do you think so? Because he has a charisma, a sympathy, a sensitivity, a style of his own and because he is confident

In the neural bases, there are mirror neurons that are activated when we perform and also when we watch someone perform an action (gestuel, facial expressions...). These neurons are of great importance in empathy and the ability to mentally represent the mental states of others. In particular, to represent what someone says about themselves, the emotions they feel.

And this is the pattern that occurs: when we have a good self-esteem, we like ourselves and we can be proud of ourselves, attracted to ourselves

When someone likes himself, and someone looks at him, the mirror neurons are activated, we imagine the fact that the person likes himself, the pride felt, and we are attracted to him as much as he is attracted by himself.

Afterwards, there are also social explanations for this, we value people who are confident, who love themselves, so we will also be attracted to someone who loves himself for social reasons, but also for personal reasons (he evokes security, the beauty of the soul, a stable energy).

4) experiencing intimate moments, knowing someone, has a positive or negative effect on the perception of a person's beauty

By spending time with people (friends for example), we create intimate and unique moments, we see the flaws and strengths of the other.

If someone's personality is radiant, warm, fun, gentle. The initial perception of physical beauty can be reinforced and the person can be seen as even more beautiful than he or she was initially perceived to be

On the other hand, you can very well find someone beautiful because of his/her body and because the person is malicious, stupid, mean, dark... perceive them as uglier than initially

I'll stop, I'm talking too much

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Physical appearance matters, yes, I'd be lying to you if I said "no".

But physical appearance is simply a reference point in terms of attraction around which many phenomena are played out. Physical appearance plays the biggest role in the first impression: "He's handsome, well dressed, looks like this and like that".

And then, many factors come into play to tip the balance on perception (which, as a reminder, has never been anything other than subjective, because even if there is a mathematical calculation to objectively define beauty, only subjectivity allows us to feel someone's beauty).

Imagine a gauge, with "ugly" on the left, "beautiful" on the right. The first impression subjectively places the physical appearance on the gauge (e.g. more towards ugly, or more towards beautiful) and then, the other factors (mentioned above) will strongly influence the new perception that you have of the person

Again, I'm sorry you're suffering so much sweet @anyoneshorizon ❤

But I think it was important to talk to you about all this so that you don't think: "you are ugly and that's it". No, "you think you're ugly and you think that's it" ❤

Your pain is legitimate, I respect it and I think I would have said the same thing to myself in your place, but these factors are important to understand ❤

Don't be too hard on yourself ❤

I hope all this can help you to relativize and suffer less ❤

I wish you that things will get better ❤

Love ❤

Barf.

Okay yeah no, if OP has any issues with his appearance he should (1) seek advice from a maxillofacial surgeon because usually negative facial aesthetics is due to structural disharmony/anomalies during growth and is a indicator of poor oral and occlusal development (malocclusion etc) he should make sure his midline matches, he doesn't have any occlusal canting, his jaw isn't severely lopsided or assymetric, that he doesn't have any pogranthism and that his bite is stable.

If anything is off he should get double jaw surgery and braces.

AFTER any midline issues/assymetry/bite problems/pogranthism/ are corrected by lefort and braces, then he can do that flowery stuff you are mentioning.

And if you think I'm advocating for cosmetic surgery I'm really not, I think it's basic that people should have optimal occlusion so their face grows properly and their face muscles don't get screwed up, I think it's atrocious that in the west people just think having prognathic jaws and class 1- 3 bites/maloclussion is normal.

That is actually unhealthy. If you still don't like your appearance after functionally you are in top shape then you should seek cosmetic surgery but honestly all of the crap people hate about their face - too broad, too long, - deviated septum, screwed up orbitals can all be traced back to having malocclusion when you are young.

Society should mandate that children have braces+ proper dental + jaw growth guidance+ posture, then ugly people would be far less common.

Speaking from experience, I have an overbite which screws with my occlusal plane, I have a slight occlusal cant, my midline is off center due to my chin point being deviated to one side slightly, and my orbitals and septum are slightly deviated.

Could have been avoided with braces and having a proper bite from infancy.

Function is more important than beauty, but good function positively correlates with beauty that is just a fact.

I believe that people should strive to have functionally perfect oral and occlusal health or close to perfect occlusion and that their bite is ideal, because that naturally leads to an ideal face structure for that person's genetic potential. I really don't think there are people in this world who are ugly who also don't have bad functional aspects awry in their face/dental areas. And that's the real truth society needs to face, is that lookism and looks based discrimination is completely preventable. It is a human rights failure to let someone grow up with unstable bites/teeth, not only does that cause them negative outcomes aesthetically but some people develop severe issues in their entire skeleton like tmd etc., Once one thing goes off hilter the rest follows, like dominoes.

I'm honestly done believing in genetics as the prime indicator of beauty it's really just your teeth and bite and nasal breathing being perfect when you are young. That's literally it, cause the orbitals septum of your nose etc are all literally connected to ur mandible, and ur mandible which is responsible for ur face shape and face muscles are affected by ur bite.

Those rich parents that put their grade schoolers in braces know what's up. But sadly even that fails cos sometimes these orthodontics don't know what the f**** their doing.

 

[Nirrend]

Barf.

Okay yeah no, if OP has any issues with his appearance he should (1) seek advice from a maxillofacial surgeon because usually negative facial aesthetics is due to structural disharmony/anomalies during growth and is a indicator of poor oral and occlusal development (malocclusion etc) he should make sure his midline matches, he doesn't have any occlusal canting, his jaw isn't severely lopsided or assymetric, that he doesn't have any pogranthism and that his bite is stable.

If anything is off he should get double jaw surgery and braces.

AFTER any midline issues/assymetry/bite problems/pogranthism/ are corrected by lefort and braces, then he can do that flowery stuff you are mentioning.

And if you think I'm advocating for cosmetic surgery I'm really not, I think it's basic that people should have optimal occlusion so their face grows properly and their face muscles don't get screwed up, I think it's atrocious that in the west people just think having prognathic jaws and class 1- 3 bites/maloclussion is normal.

That is actually unhealthy. If you still don't like your appearance after functionally you are in top shape then you should seek cosmetic surgery but honestly all of the crap people hate about their face - too broad, too long, - deviated septum, screwed up orbitals can all be traced back to having malocclusion when you are young.

Society should mandate that children have braces+ proper dental + jaw growth guidance+ posture, then ugly people would be far less common.

Speaking from experience, I have an overbite which screws with my occlusal plane, I have a slight occlusal cant, my midline is off center due to my chin point being deviated to one side slightly, and my orbitals and septum are slightly deviated.

Could have been avoided with braces and having a proper bite from infancy.

Function is more important than beauty, but good function positively correlates with beauty that is just a fact.

I believe that people should strive to have functionally perfect oral and occlusal health or close to perfect occlusion and that their bite is ideal, because that naturally leads to an ideal face structure for that person's genetic potential. I really don't think there are people in this world who are ugly who also don't have bad functional aspects awry in their face/dental areas. And that's the real truth society needs to face, is that lookism and looks based discrimination is completely preventable. It is a human rights failure to let someone grow up with unstable bites/teeth, not only does that cause them negative outcomes aesthetically but some people develop severe issues in their entire skeleton like tmd etc., Once one thing goes off hilter the rest follows, like dominoes.

I'm honestly done believing in genetics as the prime indicator of beauty it's really just your teeth and bite and nasal breathing being perfect when you are young. That's literally it, cause the orbitals septum of your nose etc are all literally connected to ur mandible, and ur mandible which is responsible for ur face shape and face muscles are affected by ur bite.

Those rich parents that put their grade schoolers in braces know what's up. But sadly even that fails cos sometimes these orthodontics don't know what the f**** their doing.

Even normally developed people with no growth discrepancies can hate each other and end up alone for the rest of their lives. Even people who are victims of accidents or disfigurement can end up loving each other and being accepted as they are by others.

Maybe what you say is true about the development of the jaw, the bones, the alignment of the posture and the bone structure, but your case does not define a generalization.

It may have been true for you, so much the better.

But how can you know what the OP really needs?

Even if I said something, I never said to him "But no, you are beautiful". I can't lie to him, I've never seen him

He did say something about "feeling ugly" or hoping that "feeling will pass", didn't he?

He didn't give details of his real appearance and even though the bone structure might have a role, as you say, "the flowery stuffs" have a much bigger role than you might think.

But basically I don't care, think what you want, because only the OP knows what is true for him.

Just avoid empiricism, what you have experienced is not an international truth, just a truth for you, which of course can sometimes be true for others as well as not.

 

[Unlucked]

Even normally developed people with no growth discrepancies can hate each other and end up alone for the rest of their lives. Even people who are victims of accidents or disfigurement can end up loving each other and being accepted as they are by others.

Maybe what you say is true about the development of the jaw, the bones, the alignment of the posture and the bone structure, but your case does not define a generalization.

It may have been true for you, so much the better.

But how can you know what the OP really needs?

Even if I said something, I never said to him "But no, you are beautiful". I can't lie to him, I've never seen him

He did say something about "feeling ugly" or hoping that "feeling will pass", didn't he?

He didn't give details of his real appearance and even though the bone structure might have a role, as you say, "the flowery stuffs" have a much bigger role than you might think.

But basically I don't care, think what you want, because only the OP knows what is true for him.

Just avoid empiricism, what you have experienced is not an international truth, just a truth for you, which of course can sometimes be true for others as well as not.

Nah it is pretty much universal that aesthetic issues mostly start with oral posture/occlusion/and your mandible because those things literally make up your face and can even affect your nose shape and cheek shape, that's why they actually have to put a literal suture to keep your nose shape from changing when you get jaw surgery. Also it isn't really empiricism id reccomend QOVES on YouTube if you really want to learn about the science of aesthetics/beauty.

As for ops case, if he really hates his face so much it's because he probably can see a discrepancy or something undesirable, humans are not blind to their own flaws. Also "true for just me?" What are you referring to? Lmao do you actually know how many people I can see with proganthism, or prognathic jaws, or screwed up face midlines just from walking in a groccery store. Puh lease. Proper Jaw development is universally considered a indicator of a person's overall facial aesthetic. You can't even dispute that, it literally affects everything from their cheekbones, nose, and even their eyes.

Maybe he's functionally perfect (highly unlikely imo) but he doesn't like the fact that he has a big nose or something, or maybe it's about his skin acne or having deep set eyes. In that case (again highly unlikely) he should try the whole self love schpeel.

But honestly if you know something is wrong with you why leave it if it can and should be fixed?

Again, I don't think it's good to normalize poor growth outcomes for the face. People can and do suffer from looks based discrimination.

You can cry about beauty being in the eye of the beholder all you want, but it does impact people's livelihoods to a huge extent.

And also id like to add, if he is structurally perfect as you mentioned and he just hates a feature JUST BECAUSE, then why shouldn't he strive to improve it if he thinks it looks bad.

I really don't get why people find talking about beauty like it's so touchy or some mystical thing that can't be quantified and it's based on energy.

Just stop, it's based on symmetry, proportion, ratios, and harmony. Those are all quantifiable and that is not empirics.

And saying that looks don't matter because " people with no growth discrepancies " can have hate each other too is a really lazy false comparison and I'm not even going to get into that.

Just invalidate the lived experience of people who don't like their aesthics why don't ya. Because durrr good looking ppl suffer toooo so looks don't matter durrrr.

Also about disfigured people finding love, outliers don't erase the fact that looks based hierarchy exists.

Clap clap

Even normally developed people with no growth discrepancies can hate each other and end up alone for the rest of their lives. Even people who are victims of accidents or disfigurement can end up loving each other and being accepted as they are by others.

Maybe what you say is true about the development of the jaw, the bones, the alignment of the posture and the bone structure, but your case does not define a generalization.

It may have been true for you, so much the better.

But how can you know what the OP really needs?

Even if I said something, I never said to him "But no, you are beautiful". I can't lie to him, I've never seen him

He did say something about "feeling ugly" or hoping that "feeling will pass", didn't he?

He didn't give details of his real appearance and even though the bone structure might have a role, as you say, "the flowery stuffs" have a much bigger role than you might think.

But basically I don't care, think what you want, because only the OP knows what is true for him.

Just avoid empiricism, what you have experienced is not an international truth, just a truth for you, which of course can sometimes be true for others as well as not.

Also, what do you think op needs then? A freshened outlook on the unimportance of looks, by the body positive people? Do you think people haven't spouted that all over him already, do you think the body positive movement hasn't already been what he has been predominantly exposed to?

Clearly something isn't working for him, because beauty standards do exist and they do affect your life.

What I'm saying is practical, I didn't tell him to go ham on cosmetic surgery in fact , I simply told him he should make sure he fixes things based first and foremost on the functionality. Beauty is literally an added benefit.

Hating your appearance and wanting to kill yourself is one thing, hating your appearance and striving to fix it to the best that you can seems more healthy to me in the long run than just giving up and dying. What do you suggest op does anyways? Do you think if you say looks don't matter enough he will believe it? He's already suicidal over it?? So what alternative is there?

 

[Nirrend]

Nah it is pretty much universal that aesthetic issues mostly start with oral posture/occlusion/and your mandible because those things literally make up your face and can even affect your nose shape and cheek shape, that's why they actually have to put a literal suture to keep your nose shape from changing when you get jaw surgery. Also it isn't really empiricism id reccomend QOVES on YouTube if you really want to learn about the science of aesthetics/beauty.

As for ops case, if he really hates his face so much it's because he probably can see a discrepancy or something undesirable, humans are not blind to their own flaws. Also "true for just me?" What are you referring to? Lmao do you actually know how many people I can see with proganthism, or prognathic jaws, or screwed up face midlines just from walking in a groccery store. Puh lease. Proper Jaw development is universally considered a indicator of a person's overall facial aesthetic. You can't even dispute that, it literally affects everything from their cheekbones, nose, and even their eyes.

Maybe he's functionally perfect (highly unlikely imo) but he doesn't like the fact that he has a big nose or something, or maybe it's about his skin acne or having deep set eyes. In that case (again highly unlikely) he should try the whole self love schpeel.

But honestly if you know something is wrong with you why leave it if it can and should be fixed?

Again, I don't think it's good to normalize poor growth outcomes for the face. People can and do suffer from looks based discrimination.

You can cry about beauty being in the eye of the beholder all you want, but it does impact people's livelihoods to a huge extent.

And also id like to add, if he is structurally perfect as you mentioned and he just hates a feature JUST BECAUSE, then why shouldn't he strive to improve it if he thinks it looks bad.

I really don't get why people find talking about beauty like it's so touchy or some mystical thing that can't be quantified and it's based on energy.

Just stop, it's based on symmetry, proportion, ratios, and harmony. Those are all quantifiable and that is not empirics.

And saying that looks don't matter because " people with no growth discrepancies " can have hate each other too is a really lazy false comparison and I'm not even going to get into that.

Just invalidate the lived experience of people who don't like their aesthics why don't ya. Because durrr good looking ppl suffer toooo so looks don't matter durrrr.

Also about disfigured people finding love, outliers don't erase the fact that looks based hierarchy exists.

Clap clap

I don't "cry" and I think it's inappropriate to say that about the author. I don't really care, you don't know me and you can make estimates about me if you like

Then as I said, I'm not saying you're wrong about the development of the bone structure and the jaw, you're probably right, I know almost nothing about this subject and maybe yes it is responsible for deviations of the face, but also for ill-being.

But as I'm going to say again, since you said that everyone should have access to surgery for this kind of operation and also, from a young age

What if people don't care about that? Beauty is a global personal feeling. It's not just about bones.

I said that to perceive oneself as beautiful depends on the vision of others but also on the vision of oneself.

When I say that you say that "it's true for you", it's because you're being political about it. You think that society should mandate people or campaigns to raise awareness on this subject. You're basing it on your own experience and yours alone to justify the fact that we need to talk about it and that having a straight face can help

Even if it is important to understand the importance of our subjective feelings and to integrate this reality (maxillofacial bone structure, alignment) into these feelings, what is the point of raising awareness only on this subject and not on the globality of things that explain the perception of beauty?

But if you make all faces perfectly, statistically realigned, where is the uniqueness and singularity of people?

People will no longer be unique, natural

Then when people don't like each other, you have to talk about it, it's important

But you can't reduce the subject of beauty to bone structure and alignment. I talked about this with the history of neural bases and statistical alignment

Measurable objective beauty does not systematically match subjective feeling.

You want to make a model factory, standard. Great for you, but not everyone thinks so

And don't bother saying "clap clap" thinking your opinion is absolute when many people would certainly disagree with you

Just include all the variables that define beauty and stop perceiving only what you think is true. That's probably your worst bias.

Too bad you express yourself by denigrating and borderline mocking, it's just violent to read for the OP.

 

[Unlucked]

I don't "cry" and I think it's inappropriate to say that about the author. I don't really care, you don't know me and you can make estimates about me if you like

Then as I said, I'm not saying you're wrong about the development of the bone structure and the jaw, you're probably right, I know almost nothing about this subject and maybe yes it is responsible for deviations of the face, but also for ill-being.

But as I'm going to say again, since you said that everyone should have access to surgery for this kind of operation and also, from a young age

What if people don't care about that? Beauty is a global personal feeling. It's not just about bones.

I said that to perceive oneself as beautiful depends on the vision of others but also on the vision of oneself.

When I say that you say that "it's true for you", it's because you're being political about it. You think that society should mandate people or campaigns to raise awareness on this subject. You're basing it on your own experience and yours alone to justify the fact that we need to talk about it and that having a straight face can help

Even if it is important to understand the importance of our subjective feelings and to integrate this reality (maxillofacial bone structure, alignment) into these feelings, what is the point of raising awareness only on this subject and not on the globality of things that explain the perception of beauty?

But if you make all faces perfectly, statistically realigned, where is the uniqueness and singularity of people?

People will no longer be unique, natural

Then when people don't like each other, you have to talk about it, it's important

But you can't reduce the subject of beauty to bone structure and alignment. I talked about this with the history of neural bases and statistical alignment

Measurable objective beauty does not systematically match subjective feeling.

You want to make a model factory, standard. Great for you, but not everyone thinks so

And don't bother saying "clap clap" thinking your opinion is absolute when many people would certainly disagree with you

Just include all the variables that define beauty and stop perceiving only what you think is true. That's probably your worst bias.

Too bad you express yourself by denigrating and borderline mocking, it's just violent to read for the OP.

I didn't say kids should have the operation I literally said they should have braces to correct their bite. That's literally it.

And small deviations are fine imo, you will have those even with perfect occlusion, people will still look unique? You literally think having proper oral health will make people not look unique? Egad man. Also I never reduced the subject of beauty to bone structure and alignment, I said it's based on harmony, symmetry, proportion, etc. You can further expand on those subjects, even to non organic objects lol.

It's literally the most noninvasive thing ever to give kids braces to make sure they chew their food nicely and their muscles don't get lopsided. Gosh. You act like I'm advocating for eugenics or something.

Also for the last time, I am not basing the concept of beauty on my "own experiences" I'm basing it on universal parameters, that are even observed in nature. Stop saying I'm making this personal.

And your bones and muscles make up your face so yes they are based on your bones and muscles. If you are talking about the energy of someone being beautiful and it contributing to their beauty then yeah that can apply. The issue with that is if your first impression is bad alot of people don't get to exhibit those traits you are calling into question to even improve their perceived appearance.

I used to be in love with a 300 lb neckbeard so I can definitely agree that there are outliers but again, that's not what I'm saying, if we are talking strictly about physical beauty here then it's not really in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Nirrend]

Nah it is pretty much universal that aesthetic issues mostly start with oral posture/occlusion/and your mandible because those things literally make up your face and can even affect your nose shape and cheek shape, that's why they actually have to put a literal suture to keep your nose shape from changing when you get jaw surgery. Also it isn't really empiricism id reccomend QOVES on YouTube if you really want to learn about the science of aesthetics/beauty.

As for ops case, if he really hates his face so much it's because he probably can see a discrepancy or something undesirable, humans are not blind to their own flaws. Also "true for just me?" What are you referring to? Lmao do you actually know how many people I can see with proganthism, or prognathic jaws, or screwed up face midlines just from walking in a groccery store. Puh lease. Proper Jaw development is universally considered a indicator of a person's overall facial aesthetic. You can't even dispute that, it literally affects everything from their cheekbones, nose, and even their eyes.

Maybe he's functionally perfect (highly unlikely imo) but he doesn't like the fact that he has a big nose or something, or maybe it's about his skin acne or having deep set eyes. In that case (again highly unlikely) he should try the whole self love schpeel.

But honestly if you know something is wrong with you why leave it if it can and should be fixed?

Again, I don't think it's good to normalize poor growth outcomes for the face. People can and do suffer from looks based discrimination.

You can cry about beauty being in the eye of the beholder all you want, but it does impact people's livelihoods to a huge extent.

And also id like to add, if he is structurally perfect as you mentioned and he just hates a feature JUST BECAUSE, then why shouldn't he strive to improve it if he thinks it looks bad.

I really don't get why people find talking about beauty like it's so touchy or some mystical thing that can't be quantified and it's based on energy.

Just stop, it's based on symmetry, proportion, ratios, and harmony. Those are all quantifiable and that is not empirics.

And saying that looks don't matter because " people with no growth discrepancies " can have hate each other too is a really lazy false comparison and I'm not even going to get into that.

Just invalidate the lived experience of people who don't like their aesthics why don't ya. Because durrr good looking ppl suffer toooo so looks don't matter durrrr.

Also about disfigured people finding love, outliers don't erase the fact that looks based hierarchy exists.

Clap clap

Also, what do you think op needs then? A freshened outlook on the unimportance of looks, by the body positive people? Do you think people haven't spouted that all over him already, do you think the body positive movement hasn't already been what he has been predominantly exposed to?

Clearly something isn't working for him, because beauty standards do exist and they do affect your life.

What I'm saying is practical, I didn't tell him to go ham on cosmetic surgery in fact , I simply told him he should make sure he fixes things based first and foremost on the functionality. Beauty is literally an added benefit.

Hating your appearance and wanting to kill yourself is one thing, hating your appearance and striving to fix it to the best that you can seems more healthy to me in the long run than just giving up and dying. What do you suggest op does anyways? Do you think if you say looks don't matter enough he will believe it? He's already suicidal over it?? So what alternative is there?

Ah, but I agree with you about the demands and changes in beauty these days.

I didn't tell him platitudes like "No, you're beautiful, I love you, go out with me". Or "you have to love you, that's the only secret".

I listed (without including yours, it's true, and you're right about that) a set of variables explaining the perception of beauty and I made it clear to him "I'm not trying to put you to sleep with nice words" or "Yes, physical appearance is what it is and it has to do with the perception of beauty for oneself"

I just don't understand why you denigrate anything other than physical material (bones, jaw..) beauty and I don't understand the mocking tone you take either.

Just what is the point? It's not a political campaign, you would have been better off respecting the realities I listed before (because they are scientific realities) and sharing yours by reminding him that what you describe also exists.

Things would have just ended well in fact

I didn't say kids should have the operation I literally said they should have braces to correct their bite. That's literally it.

And small deviations are fine imo, you will have those even with perfect occlusion, people will still look unique? You literally think having proper oral health will make people not look unique? Egad man. Also I never reduced the subject of beauty to bone structure and alignment, I said it's based on harmony, symmetry, proportion, etc. You can further expand on those subjects, even to non organic objects lol.

It's literally the most noninvasive thing ever to give kids braces to make sure they chew their food nicely and their muscles don't get lopsided. Gosh. You act like I'm advocating for eugenics or something.

I just blame you for taking a disparaging and superior tone when the physical, genetic consideration of beauty is only part of what the subject really is.

You might want to think about calming down, you're the only one who's escalated this on your own.

And whether you like it or not, philosophically, trying to systematically talk about the subject of statistical alignment can lead to being eternally dissatisfied from birth. That's a matter of opinion, but I just find it sad that people can constantly consider realigning and homogenising their faces. They can live happily with their imperfection in the first place.

But if it turns out that the suffering is too great, then why not consider such a thing.

I just don't understand this superior tone you're taking, that's all. I wasn't harsh with you at first

 

[Unlucked]

Ah, but I agree with you about the demands and changes in beauty these days.

I didn't tell him platitudes like "No, you're beautiful, I love you, go out with me". Or "you have to love you, that's the only secret".

I listed (without including yours, it's true, and you're right about that) a set of variables explaining the perception of beauty and I made it clear to him "I'm not trying to put you to sleep with nice words" or "Yes, physical appearance is what it is and it has to do with the perception of beauty for oneself"

I just don't understand why you denigrate anything other than physical material (bones, jaw..) beauty and I don't understand the mocking tone you take either.

Just what is the point? It's not a political campaign, you would have been better off respecting the realities I listed before (because they are scientific realities) and sharing yours by reminding him that what you describe also exists.

Things would have just ended well in fact


I just blame you for taking a disparaging and superior tone when the physical, genetic consideration of beauty is only part of what the subject really is.

You might want to think about calming down, you're the only one who's escalated this on your own.

And whether you like it or not, philosophically, trying to systematically talk about the subject of statistical alignment can lead to being eternally dissatisfied from birth. That's a matter of opinion, but I just find it sad that people can constantly consider realigning and homogenising their faces. They can live happily with their imperfection in the first place.

But if it turns out that the suffering is too great, then why not consider such a thing.

I just don't understand this superior tone you're taking, that's all. I wasn't harsh with you at first

You didn't list any scientific realities bud.

 

[makethepainstop]

May I ask , are you female or male ? How old are you ? What don't you like specifically about your looks

I too wish for some enlightenment as to your feelings of being ugly.
Perhaps you are too young to know that everyone starts looking a lot better when you have had a few drinks, and the bar, night club or lounge is going to close in another hour. Why it's an amazing transformation! A guy I would not even look at when the bar first opened starts looking pretty hot 1 hour before the bar closes and I have had several drinks, (As the Brits used to like to say just a tooth full!)

 

[Unlucked]

Ah, but I agree with you about the demands and changes in beauty these days.

I didn't tell him platitudes like "No, you're beautiful, I love you, go out with me". Or "you have to love you, that's the only secret".

I listed (without including yours, it's true, and you're right about that) a set of variables explaining the perception of beauty and I made it clear to him "I'm not trying to put you to sleep with nice words" or "Yes, physical appearance is what it is and it has to do with the perception of beauty for oneself"

I just don't understand why you denigrate anything other than physical material (bones, jaw..) beauty and I don't understand the mocking tone you take either.

Just what is the point? It's not a political campaign, you would have been better off respecting the realities I listed before (because they are scientific realities) and sharing yours by reminding him that what you describe also exists.

Things would have just ended well in fact


I just blame you for taking a disparaging and superior tone when the physical, genetic consideration of beauty is only part of what the subject really is.

You might want to think about calming down, you're the only one who's escalated this on your own.

And whether you like it or not, philosophically, trying to systematically talk about the subject of statistical alignment can lead to being eternally dissatisfied from birth. That's a matter of opinion, but I just find it sad that people can constantly consider realigning and homogenising their faces. They can live happily with their imperfection in the first place.

But if it turns out that the suffering is too great, then why not consider such a thing.

I just don't understand this superior tone you're taking, that's all. I wasn't harsh with you at first

I didn't dispute that some people can live happily with imperfections on their face. But honestly it is not ideal, just like being fat is not ideal. That's just it, it is not ideal. OPs suffering is stemming from the fact that he doesn't fit his ideal, hence he feels ugly.

Some people have such minor quirks in their appearance that it can even be endearing like a slightly crooked smile, but honestly I don't think that is the case here.

Maybe dogmatically saying that every child should have braces was a far reach but honestly I see alot of people suffering with self perception issues amongst my generation, even going and editing their photos jawlines everything, and I think all of this could be stopped at the root before it can become something that is going to be capitalized on anyways later in life by corporations when more invasive procedures need to be done to get that desired look. Maybe I am politicizing it but can you blame me? We live in a politicized society.

Don't you think everyone would rather fit the beauty standard if they could?

 

[Nirrend]

I didn't say kids should have the operation I literally said they should have braces to correct their bite. That's literally it.

And small deviations are fine imo, you will have those even with perfect occlusion, people will still look unique? You literally think having proper oral health will make people not look unique? Egad man. Also I never reduced the subject of beauty to bone structure and alignment, I said it's based on harmony, symmetry, proportion, etc. You can further expand on those subjects, even to non organic objects lol.

It's literally the most noninvasive thing ever to give kids braces to make sure they chew their food nicely and their muscles don't get lopsided. Gosh. You act like I'm advocating for eugenics or something.

Also for the last time, I am not basing the concept of beauty on my "own experiences" I'm basing it on universal parameters, that are even observed in nature. Stop saying I'm making this personal.

And your bones and muscles make up your face so yes they are based on your bones and muscles. If you are talking about the energy of someone being beautiful and it contributing to their beauty then yeah that can apply. The issue with that is if your first impression is bad alot of people don't get to exhibit those traits you are calling into question to even improve their perceived appearance.

I used to be in love with a 300 lb neckbeard so I can definitely agree that there are outliers but again, that's not what I'm saying, if we are talking strictly about physical beauty here then it's not really in the eye of the beholder.

On the point where you describe "that physical beauty is fundamental", I agree but mainly for the first impression at the beginning. I was talking about that in my initial post. Then other factors come into play.

I said you were making it personal because you were denigrating what I was saying and making my arguments "flowery".

But I know that on some aspects I agree with you.

It's a pity that it escalated like that. We were both talking about a chair (beauty), but we weren't talking about the same thing about the chair. Me foot and you the backrest or seat maybe, anyway.

Anyway, you get the metaphor, I just wonder why you reacted so violently. I wasn't trying to make a cheesy, utopian subject in the first place. I was just trying to give some hints as to what the op could do more quickly without going through the "physical interventions" (without necessarily talking about operations).

 

[Unlucked]

On the point where you describe "that physical beauty is fundamental", I agree but mainly for the first impression at the beginning. I was talking about that in my initial post. Then other factors come into play.

I said you were making it personal because you were denigrating what I was saying and making my arguments "flowery".

But I know that on some aspects I agree with you.

It's a pity that it escalated like that. We were both talking about a chair (beauty), but we weren't talking about the same thing about the chair. Me foot and you the backrest or seat maybe, anyway.

Anyway, you get the metaphor, I just wonder why you reacted so violently. I wasn't trying to make a cheesy, utopian subject in the first place. I was just trying to give some hints as to what the op could do more quickly without going through the "physical interventions" (without necessarily talking about operations).

I think it's good that you were giving some immediate advice without the invasive actions of undergoing procedures. I guess my thought process was that if someone was already at the ends of their ropes about their appearance that those other avenues would have already been explored.

This topic is a bit personal for me as well, which is why I reacted emotionally and dogmatically. I will put this to rest amicably if possible. This topic does hurt me quite a bit, as I have had experiences of people preaching to me some sort of self acceptance over my body but I have struggled with eating disorders and surgery goals throughout my life, and dealt with alot of bullying over my looks even until the beggining of college which led me to make drastic changes. But I understand the perspective you are placing here and honestly I wish we lived in a world where looks were based on the energy and vibe/ personality and were negligible on how you were treated, that just hasnt been my experience. I'm sure that for some it is like that though.

I just think if op is at the ends of his rope he should do drastic things to get better since it's already at that point where he feels it impacts his life so negatively. Just as it did for me. Although for me it wasn't really aesthetic but more relating to my femininity.

 

[Nirrend]

I didn't dispute that some people can live happily with imperfections on their face. But honestly it is not ideal, just like being fat is not ideal. That's just it, it is not ideal. OPs suffering is stemming from the fact that he doesn't fit his ideal, hence he feels ugly.

Some people have such minor quirks in their appearance that it can even be endearing like a slightly crooked smile, but honestly I don't think that is the case here.

Maybe dogmatically saying that every child should have braces was a far reach but honestly I see alot of people suffering with self perception issues amongst my generation, even going and editing their photos jawlines everything, and I think all of this could be stopped at the root before it can become something that is going to be capitalized on anyways later in life by corporations when more invasive procedures need to be done to get that desired look. Maybe I am politicizing it but can you blame me? We live in a politicized society.

Don't you think everyone would rather fit the beauty standard if they could?

I wasn't blaming you for politicising precisely, but for associating deep questioning with a superior air

I understand if you want this topic to be important and maybe in your eyes you find that many bypass the substance by making a honeyed propaganda about "love yourself to be loved" or something like "Life is great don't you think? So smile to be loved".

I just wanted to deconstruct a cheesy utopia that we're being fed to try and show that there is some truth to it (loving yourself to be found beautiful)

But of course I would never deny the realities you refer to and I don't blame you for raising awareness of the fact that, for many people no doubt, fitting into social standards of beauty is important. Because obviously, in a utopia, everyone is beautiful and loves each other

To answer you honestly, even if I understand that you want to, I confess that beauty standards disgust me so much that I absolutely don't want to fit into them. I want to keep my unique aspect which, with time, has ended up satisfying me. Because for me, these standards give me an aftertaste of... I don't know, maybe superficiality. But I respect that others dream of that

*To answer your previous post: I did not quote the authors but everything I said is scientifically valid

 

[Unlucked]

I wasn't blaming you for politicising precisely, but for associating deep questioning with a superior air

I understand if you want this topic to be important and maybe in your eyes you find that many bypass the substance by making a honeyed propaganda about "love yourself to be loved" or something like "Life is great don't you think? So smile to be loved".

I just wanted to deconstruct a cheesy utopia that we're being fed to try and show that there is some truth to it (loving yourself to be found beautiful)

But of course I would never deny the realities you refer to and I don't blame you for raising awareness of the fact that, for many people no doubt, fitting into social standards of beauty is important. Because obviously, in a utopia, everyone is beautiful and loves each other

To answer you honestly, even if I understand that you want to, I confess that beauty standards disgust me so much that I absolutely don't want to fit into them. I want to keep my unique aspect which, with time, has ended up satisfying me. Because for me, these standards give me an aftertaste of... I don't know, maybe superficiality. But I respect that others dream of that

*To answer your previous post: I did not quote the authors but everything I said is scientifically valid

I appreciate your perspective on this matter, personally for me I feel the beauty standards disgust me as well, for me it's a begruding sort of acceptance of them being a biological and social reality that impacts many people's lives on the day to day.

I wish they didn't exist at all, I appreciate women and men who can go against the beauty standard and not conform to it for reasons of it being superficial although, I had a phase where I wanted to do that as well, but I realized it was futile because humans have always discriminated and idealized beauty in that capacity and I don't think such a strong construct can be dissipated even with people doing all they can with body positivity and normalizing unconventional body types / faces. I still feel like the drive will always be there

 

[Nirrend]

I think it's good that you were giving some immediate advice without the invasive actions of undergoing procedures. I guess my thought process was that if someone was already at the ends of their ropes about their appearance that those other avenues would have already been explored.

This topic is a bit personal for me as well, which is why I reacted emotionally and dogmatically. I will put this to rest amicably if possible. This topic does hurt me quite a bit, as I have had experiences of people preaching to me some sort of self acceptance over my body but I have struggled with eating disorders and surgery goals throughout my life, and dealt with alot of bullying over my looks even until the beggining of college which led me to make drastic changes. But I understand the perspective you are placing here and honestly I wish we lived in a world where looks were based on the energy and vibe/ personality and were negligible on how you were treated, that just hasnt been my experience. I'm sure that for some it is like that though.

I just think if op is at the ends of his rope he should do drastic things to get better since it's already at that point where he feels it impacts his life so negatively. Just as it did for me. Although for me it wasn't really aesthetic but more relating to my femininity.

I understand about your story and I'm sorry, I had understood during our exchanges that I had touched you in some way.

I also reacted strongly because I felt denigrated haha

But after all, that's the debate sometimes

Personally, I don't blame you and I understand why on this subject you have your opinion

I respect, and sorry if I was harsh ❤

I appreciate your perspective on this matter, personally for me I feel the beauty standards disgust me as well, for me it's a begruding sort of acceptance of them being a biological and social reality that impacts many people's lives on the day to day.

I wish they didn't exist at all, I appreciate women and men who can go against the beauty standard and not conform to it for reasons of it being superficial although, I had a phase where I wanted to do that as well, but I realized it was futile because humans have always discriminated and idealized beauty in that capacity and I don't think such a strong construct can be dissipated even with people doing all they can with body positivity and normalizing unconventional body types / faces. I still feel like the drive will always be there

Yes, I agree with you

Since these subjects make you feel powerless, it is true that it is deeply complicated to find really effective solutions to stop suffering and depending on them

I also wish a lot of things that make up our society were simpler you know haha

It would prevent other communities like ours from ending up because of suffering. Because in a cheesy utopia, I would have preferred that this forum was only dedicated to the future, to happiness

But the world is cold and it would be denial to lie about it

I appreciate your perspective on this matter, personally for me I feel the beauty standards disgust me as well, for me it's a begruding sort of acceptance of them being a biological and social reality that impacts many people's lives on the day to day.

I wish they didn't exist at all, I appreciate women and men who can go against the beauty standard and not conform to it for reasons of it being superficial although, I had a phase where I wanted to do that as well, but I realized it was futile because humans have always discriminated and idealized beauty in that capacity and I don't think such a strong construct can be dissipated even with people doing all they can with body positivity and normalizing unconventional body types / faces. I still feel like the drive will always be there

I understand and I'm sorry that even today these themes have an impact on you ❤

Basically, even though the exchange started off hectic, I think it turned out to be important because, to be honest, it makes me think about several perspectives in life and beauty

But I also feel that it can let a sense of injustice (you felt) and misunderstanding that people have had towards your situation, come out into the open

I think it's much better this way, because it's a relief

I'm sorry, I'm way too hungry, I'll have to go eat but I'll keep a good memory of this exchange!

I wish you the best sweet @Unlucked

Just like you sweet @anyoneshorizon, We allowed ourselves this discussion on your thread, sorry for your notifications

I wish you both the best ❤

The main thing in all this, follow what you think is right for you

Love ❤

 

[Unlucked]

I understand about your story and I'm sorry, I had understood during our exchanges that I had touched you in some way.

I also reacted strongly because I felt denigrated haha

But after all, that's the debate sometimes

Personally, I don't blame you and I understand why on this subject you have your opinion

I respect, and sorry if I was harsh ❤


Yes, I agree with you

Since these subjects make you feel powerless, it is true that it is deeply complicated to find really effective solutions to stop suffering and depending on them

I also wish a lot of things that make up our society were simpler you know haha

It would prevent other communities like ours from ending up because of suffering. Because in a cheesy utopia, I would have preferred that this forum was only dedicated to the future, to happiness

But the world is cold and it would be denial to lie about it


I understand and I'm sorry that even today these themes have an impact on you ❤

Basically, even though the exchange started off hectic, I think it turned out to be important because, to be honest, it makes me think about several perspectives in life and beauty

But I also feel that it can let a sense of injustice and misunderstanding that people have had towards your situation, come out into the open

I think it's much better this way, because it's a relief

I'm sorry, I'm way too hungry, I'll have to go eat but I'll keep a good memory of this exchange!

I wish you the best sweet @Unlucked

Just like you sweet @anyoneshorizon, who we crashed at to talk about several things in the end

I wish you both the best ❤

The main thing in all this, follow what you think is right for you

Love ❤

Thanks, you are honestly a really sweet person. I appreciate the genuine care and also the fact that you tried to understand my perspective. <3 you remind me of my mom a bit with the way you talk haha.

Sweet dreams, It is 2:20 am where I live so I must sleep. Thank you for your kind words and loving energy.

I usually hate that stuff but it made me feel better today, even just a little bit.

 

[Nirrend]

Thanks, you are honestly a really sweet person. I appreciate the genuine care and also the fact that you tried to understand my perspective. <3 you remind me of my mom a bit with the way you talk haha.

Sweet dreams, It is 2:20 am where I live so I must sleep. Thank you for your kind words and loving energy.

I usually hate that stuff but it made me feel better today, even just a little bit.

❤❤❤

 

[Superdeterminist]

I probably won't do it now.
Or very soon.
And I won't let it stop me from reaching my dream.

But when I do kill myself that would be the root of it.
The consequences of not liking how I look/ being ugly
I will never feel good enough, I will feel alone, I will feel ugly.

I try my best to ignore this insecurity and try to have good future but it does stop me from really enjoying life.

I hope this feeling changes.

P.s. this is not meant to be a poem. The way I spaced the sentences make it look like stanzas

Me too, I can't stand the fact that I'm average at best. There is no good reason to tolerate that disgusting indignity. There are people in the world who receive so much positive attention and so many wonderful opportunities, all due to their fortunate appearance. Why put up with living in their shadow, enjoying scraps while they feast?