J

JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
I've worked in several nursing homes. A couple examples about the people living there from the top of my head: There was this one old lady, +5 years bedridden, had a stroke or something so she was not all there anymore. Got fed through a PEG tube. For some reason this made her emit huge amounts of slime from the back of her throat, and she was constantly aspirating in that slime. Her days consisted of her staring at the ceiling of her room and constantly coughing up her own slime to the point of vomiting. This because her loving children didn't want to stop force feeding her. This other old lady had a severe dementia. Every night i went to her room she had her legs hanging from between the edges of her hospital bed. The floor was often wet, because she had cried so much. Most of the things she said didnt make any sense, and she was very slow to understand anything said to her. She was constantly fearful and confused. Every time i changed her diapers she shrieked from the top of her lungs and begged me not to do something. Seemed to me like she had some traumatic background and she thought she was being assaulted.

And you know what? I didn't really care about them. Not meaning i would do my job poorly, but i just did it, mostly without thinking or feeling anything for them. The impolite thing nobody really wants to say out loud, is that these can hardly be seen as people anymore at this point. Meaning, most are so out of their minds in one way or another that they are practically vegetables, you don't look at them and instantly see yourself, you have to focus and conceptualize. It's more like "To think that this dried up old poopmachine here was once a person like me. Absurd. I wonder what they were like"

I've worked with young people in my past too, people who've had permanent, severe physical injuries, for example from car accidents and violence, ive worked with people with birth defects, cerebral palsy etc. These people were mentally mostly here (although usually somewhat disordered), but their bodies were broken. Working with them made me feel awful. It was quite impossible for me to look at them and not see myself. I could not do that kind of work for a long time, my inability to help them in any way made me severely depressed.

With the old people it's nothing like this. I just don't see the connection most of the time, unless I concentrate and think about it. I'm not acutely, painfully aware of the fact that this here is a human being in pain and discomfort. There is usually nothing I can do for them, so it's not even worth trying to see it this way. I'm whistling and thinking about what to get for lunch while listening to them shrieking or gurgling on their own vomit. It's not lack of empathy, really, it's just that there is simply too much distance between us for my mirror neurons to activate.

If you know what's best for you then never let yourself get to this point. You will learn to know what it really is to be invisible. If you get dementia at some point it's better to kill yourself, no matter what anyone thinks of it. Your children, grandchildren, they don't know anything. The society and the people hardly give a fuck about the suffering of people they can still recognize as people, as their peers and mental equals. They care even less about those who they can't. There are no golden years, at best it's really uncomfortable towards the end, at worst it's hell beyond anything you can imagine. And every now and then, that hell takes a loooong time. Think 10 years lying in your bed staring at the ceiling, mentally slowly becoming one with the mattress.
 
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FuneralCry

FuneralCry

Just wanting some peace
Sep 24, 2020
37,128
Old age sounds beyond horrifying to me. It's certainly something to be avoided and I believe it to be irrational to want to get old and deteriorate and die a slow painful death. It scares me how the human body can torture people to such great extents. All of this makes the thought of non existence sound incredibly appealing.
 
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IntoTheLight

IntoTheLight

Member
Oct 11, 2022
46
It's ridiculous that we don't provide an easily accessible and dignified way out for old people. Until we have a cure for aging that's the least we could do.
 
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Suicidebydeath

Suicidebydeath

No chances to be happy - dead inside
Nov 25, 2021
3,559
I don't even want the cure for aging. I don't see why I should have to live in this cruel world longer than necessary. I dread getting old though.
 
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gomenasai

gomenasai

Student
Sep 30, 2022
168
Nobody cares about anybody even before reaching that old age.
 
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Suicidebydeath

Suicidebydeath

No chances to be happy - dead inside
Nov 25, 2021
3,559
Nobody cares about anybody even before reaching that old age.
Agree in general, age just makes it worse. People mostly only care when there's an ulterior motive. That's a large enough reason for ctb for me.
 
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Hirokami

Hirokami

Out of order
Feb 21, 2021
607
What scares me more than the physical ailments are the psychological ones. Yes, I definitely wouldn't want to be bedridden or have cerebral palsy. However, the thought of losing my mind even more than I already have sounds terrifying. I'd rather not risk having dementia and slowly forget everything around me, including who I am. Plus, I'd be aware of what's happening and would be helpless to stop it. Why isn't offering those with dementia, for example, an ethical way out more common? People don't deserve to suffer over something they can't help.
 
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IntoTheLight

IntoTheLight

Member
Oct 11, 2022
46
I don't even want the cure for aging. I don't see why I should have to live in this cruel world longer than necessary. I dread getting old though.
Dying of old age is one of the absolute worst ways to go. Decades of deterioration and suffering before you finally get a heart attack or organ failure or something. Curing aging doesn't mean you have to live longer, it just gives you more control and options to go when you want to and not when your body says so.
 
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Girl-shaped Wound

Girl-shaped Wound

In love with a person that doesn't exist
Feb 19, 2022
148
What scares me more than the physical ailments are the psychological ones. Yes, I definitely wouldn't want to be bedridden or have cerebral palsy. However, the thought of losing my mind even more than I already have sounds terrifying. I'd rather not risk having dementia and slowly forget everything around me, including who I am. Plus, I'd be aware of what's happening and would be helpless to stop it. Why isn't offering those with dementia, for example, an ethical way out more common? People don't deserve to suffer over something they can't help.
Yeah, always was horrified of dementia. Listening to Everywhere At The End of Time certainely didn't help.
I hope to die soon, even though ATM I'm in danger of early onset dementia at best.
 
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M

Molded foundation

Student
Sep 17, 2021
136
I volunteered at a nursing home for a day once and saw a 107 year old woman in a vegetative state with no leg (her leg died before she did so they had to amputate it). I've seen old men take baths and when they stood up, you could see the deep purple bruising all over their ass and lower back from sitting in a bed or wheelchair all day. I saw a lot of the patients talking to people who were not even there. The living situations later on in your life are not even to be considered living honestly. It's such an impoverished and sorrowful chapter in your life. Your body and mind has failed and given out on you that the only thing you can cherish anymore is faded memories and what family you have left that visits you every once in a while (if you can recognize their faces).

I suggest if people want to live into their elderly years, is to stay in top condition. They should not do hard drugs, don't smoke, don't drink, train your brain and keep learning, exercise, don't sleep too little or too much, and don't live a sedentary lifestyle. Genetics though is a big factor, you could do all that and still fall seriously ill and need constant care.

My grandfather told his family, "Once you reach age 70 you're just living on borrowed time."
 
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freedompass

freedompass

Warlock
Jan 27, 2021
768
I'm more horrified at the thought of being 'cared for' by OP in my old age than I am by old age itself. Wish I could say I was kidding.

That said, this is pretty much the main reason I'm here. Fuck being dependent on strangers for the most intimate personal care. Fuck the 'loving children' that selfishly keep their parents alive from some fucked inability to face their own mortality.

My own mother is 90 and doing very well, for now. Please god she never gets to the bedridden, helpless, incommunicado stage. She's always lived in the present, in denial of all the bad shit that could happen in the future. Some might think that admirable, but it had severe repercussions for her dependents.

When I tried to quiz her about end of life wishes she evaded the question and clearly had not even considered it.

How to have a dignified death. It's all relative isn't it? I mean, sure it's better to die vomiting and blue than be cared for in a home by the likes of OP. Still far from ideal.

Which is why it is indeed better never to have been born in the first place.
 
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IntoTheLight

IntoTheLight

Member
Oct 11, 2022
46
Which is why it is indeed better never to have been born in the first place.
In theory I agree that non-existence is preferable in all cases, however I'm not sure if it is possible for non-experience to exist. If consciousness is a monism then as long as there is some sophisticated lifeform in the universe there is something that can fill the contents of consciousness. So to eliminate all possibilities of yourself ("you" being consciousness) suffering you'd have to eliminate all life in the universe. However, at some point life will inevitably arise again and suffering begins all over. So really you'd have to eliminate the universe itself, or wait for its heat death to occur. But then the question is if there are multiple (infinite?) universes, or if one dying universe gives birth to another one. In that case there is no escaping the curse of consciousness.

Edit: To clarify, this isn't meant as an argument for efilism but against it - should've made that clearer.
 
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freedompass

freedompass

Warlock
Jan 27, 2021
768
In theory I agree that non-existence is preferable in all cases, however I'm not sure if it is possible for non-experience to exist. If consciousness is a monism then as long as there is some sophisticated lifeform in the universe there is something that can fill the contents of consciousness. So to eliminate all possibilities of yourself ("you" being consciousness) suffering you'd have to eliminate all life in the universe. However, at some point life will inevitably arise again and suffering begins all over. So really you'd have to eliminate the universe itself, or wait for its heat death to occur. But then the question is if there are multiple (infinite?) universes, or if one dying universe gives birth to another one. In that case there is no escaping the curse of consciousness.
We have an efilist in the house?

I don't want to rudely derail OP's thread so I'll just say this. Personally I can conceive of some form of consciousness without suffering, so I don't regard it as for me to make a life or death choice for all living things in the universe.
 
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IntoTheLight

IntoTheLight

Member
Oct 11, 2022
46
We have an efilist in the house?
I wouldn't describe myself as an efilist, my argument was more against efilism than for it, because I don't think that eliminating consciousness is possible. So the best we can do is improve the quality of life of conscious beings as much as possible.
 
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J

JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
I'm more horrified at the thought of being 'cared for' by OP in my old age than I am by old age itself. Wish I could say I was kidding.

That said, this is pretty much the main reason I'm here. Fuck being dependent on strangers for the most intimate personal care. Fuck the 'loving children' that selfishly keep their parents alive from some fucked inability to face their own mortality.

My own mother is 90 and doing very well, for now. Please god she never gets to the bedridden, helpless, incommunicado stage. She's always lived in the present, in denial of all the bad shit that could happen in the future. Some might think that admirable, but it had severe repercussions for her dependents.

When I tried to quiz her about end of life wishes she evaded the question and clearly had not even considered it.

How to have a dignified death. It's all relative isn't it? I mean, sure it's better to die vomiting and blue than be cared for in a home by the likes of OP. Still far from ideal.

Which is why it is indeed better never to have been born in the first place.
I'm going to cut you some slack because you clearly have no idea what you are talking about, but for the record, i do my job well, just because i chose to speak honestly about the issue that doesn't make me poor at my job.

You think i'm the only person who has problems with seeing severely demented people as my equals? In fact i take that back, i don't see them as my equals because they are not. They are like infant children, impossible to communicate with, you just herd them like sheep from place A to place B and clean up their mess. As a result, you end up having us much respect for them as you would have for an infant.

Except that they are not infants, they are not charming and innocent but old, and carry all the sins that come with old age with them. Most of them probably were decent people, a few of them could perhaps even have been considered nice, and a few of them terrible. Whatever it was it's impossible to say now, because now they are all the same.

As they no longer have distinct personalities, I'm compelled to feel as much love and compassion for them as i feel for humanity in general. Which is some, but not all that much.
 
freedompass

freedompass

Warlock
Jan 27, 2021
768
I've worked with old people myself. No need to cut me any slack. You can't understand an old lady shrieking because you are touching her in an intimate place to clean her? She may well be sexually traumatised from her past. That's not your fault but your complete lack of empathy towards your unfortunate charges, is.
 
J

JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
I've worked with old people myself. No need to cut me any slack. You can't understand an old lady shrieking because you are touching her in an intimate place to clean her? She may well be sexually traumatised from her past. That's not your fault but your complete lack of empathy towards your unfortunate charges, is.
When did i say i didn't understand why she was shrieking?

And I don't have a complete lack of empathy. So I'm going to continue cutting you some slack, because I guess you never came to know a person with a complete lack of empathy, and thus you clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
 
freedompass

freedompass

Warlock
Jan 27, 2021
768
By your own admission you don't see them as people anymore! You say you had empathy for the young disabled people you worked with, and that it upset you. I have no reason to disbelieve that.

Why choose to work with a group who you seem to feel, by committing the 'sin' of growing old, have forfeited all dignity? They are uncharming, uncute infants to you. You speculate as to what personality they might have had when they were younger. You lack the sensitivity to see they are still those same people.

I stand by everything I've said. I would hate to be helpless at the mercy of a 'carer' like you.
 
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J

JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
By your own admission you don't see them as people anymore! You say you had empathy for the young disabled people you worked with, and that it upset you. I have no reason to disbelieve that.

Why choose to work with a group who you seem to feel, by committing the 'sin' of growing old, have forfeited all dignity? They are uncharming, uncute infants to you. You speculate as to what personality they might have had when they were younger. You lack the sensitivity to see they are still people.
I very much see that they are still people, it's quite impossible not to see that. The question is, what do you think that should mean to me, and why? Do you love all people? Because these people are "all people". For me, a severely demented person is a nobody, and everybody, at the same time.

With "they can barely been seen as people" I meant that I can also see that they have lost all the qualities which normally would determine how i would relate to each of them, as individuals. It's not a question of empathy.

I choose to work with them because it's not mentally taxing for me.
 
freedompass

freedompass

Warlock
Jan 27, 2021
768
Is it 'mentally taxing' to exercise your imagination a little to put yourself in their shoes?

You seem to be backtracking a little from your original post.

A good care worker for the elderly is not someone who efficiently manages spills and cleans up messes. It's someone who can do those things with respect for that person's inherent dignity as a human.

Older people have a vulnerability that can be very endearing. I prefer them to 'cute' squalling infants because they survived a long, often interesting life. Why not look for the glimmers of personality and individuality that remain and encourage them to express more of that?

You have already given up on them. You see them as pooping machines. Don't think they lack the ability to sense this. I have no doubt they probably know more about you than you do about them.
 
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IntoTheLight

IntoTheLight

Member
Oct 11, 2022
46
I very much see that they are still people, it's quite impossible not to see that. The question is, what do you think that should mean to me, and why? Do you love all people? Because these people are "all people". For me, a severely demented person is a nobody, and everybody, at the same time.

With "they can barely been seen as people" I meant that I can also see that they have lost all the qualities which normally would determine how i would relate to each of them, as individuals. It's not a question of empathy.

I choose to work with them because it's not mentally taxing for me.
Old people are conscious beings just as much as anybody else and deserve compassion just as much as any other conscious being. Their physical and mental states are the results of illness. Just because someone is severely sick doesn't make them less of a person.
 
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J

JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
Is it 'mentally taxing' to exercise your imagination a little to put yourself in their shoes?
Yeah it in fact is taxing.
You seem to be backtracking a little from your original post.
I don't really see it. The point i've been trying to make this whole time, has been that what i feel/dont feel working with these people is not a question of empathy, because you wouldn't emphatize (have pro-social feelings), or not-emphatize (have anti-social feelings), with a non-entity. They are no longer all here, there are no complicated intentions, thoughts, emotions anymore, and once i leave the room they will forget that i exist, so there is no point in having much any feelings towards them.
A good care worker for the elderly is not someone who efficiently manages spills and cleans up messes. It's someone who can do those things with respect for that person's inherent dignity as a human.

Older people have a vulnerability that can be very endearing. I prefer them to 'cute' squalling infants because they survived a long, often interesting life. Why not look for the glimmers of personality and individuality that remain and encourage them to express more of that?

You have already given up on them. You see them as pooping machines. Don't think they lack the ability to sense this. I have no doubt they probably know more about you than you do about them.
I understand where you are coming from with this. But I don't think most of these people know much anything at this point.

I see that vulnerability a bit differently too. I see that these people have lost their minds, and on top of that are usually also suffering from various other health problems that worsen their quality of life substantially, and i can't help but to blame them for it a bit:

They didn't see it coming back when they still had their health. They didn't see it because they refused to look, unlike I did, and i know this for a fact because if they had looked, if they had faced the facts about what it is to die of old age, then they would have chosen the other alternative. Personally, there is no way i'm not going to off myself before ending up in their place. I would never trust myself in anyone's care.

There is nothing i can do for them now, not really, anything that i can do is a momentarily drop of relief to an ocean of pain. Still, I like to think I'm not the one who is going to look away.
 
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freedompass

freedompass

Warlock
Jan 27, 2021
768
They didn't see it coming back when they still had their health. They didn't see it because they refused to look, unlike I did, and i know this for a fact because if they had looked, if they had faced the facts about what it is to die of old age, then they would have chosen the other alternative. Personally, there is no way i'm not going to off myself before ending up in their place. I would never trust myself in anyone's care.
I sort of hear this. I shared about my own 90 year old mother and how she doesn't ever seem to think ahead. At 90, to not consider how you want to die? If you want to be artificially kept alive, in the worst case scenario?

Then again. Look how many of us there are on this very website, wrestling with the dreaded survival instinct? We who have spent any length of time contemplating realise that going through with ctb is anything but 'the easy way out'.

For all you know you may have several residents who have battled suicidal thoughts themselves. It has certainly occurred to me that I may never have what it takes to voluntarily put an end to my life. It's certainly not a foregone conclusion.

Perhaps they simply soldiered on from day to day, alive by default, until their bodies and minds started to break down. This is where compassion should enter the equation. If we find the courage, if the SN/whatever works then we are the lucky ones. If our time on SS teaches us anything it's 'never underestimate SI'.
 
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J

JustSwingingTheD

Experienced
Jan 31, 2022
204
I sort of hear this. I shared about my own 90 year old mother and how she doesn't ever seem to think ahead. At 90, to not consider how you want to die? If you want to be artificially kept alive, in the worst case scenario?
It's completely irrational of me to blame these people for their state, but partially it feels like im carrying all this shit because of them. Not because of them, strictly speaking, but because of them and all other people just like them, people who just refuse to see things the way they are all their lives. I have to think about this horrible shit, think about it extra hard, carry it all alone, because they wont. This is because i do empathize, and i do want to understand.

It's not just a question of occupation either. You can be right next as this shit is going down, and still never take a proper look. Or you can be drawn to it, like to a magnet, as i always have.

In the end, the jokes on you, you fuckers. In the end, at least i have my N ready for me, what do you got?
 

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