Why we need to lift the stigma around suicide and legalize it instead.

[RainAndSadness]

We all know committing suicide isn't a crime. But it certainly feels like a crime due to the stigma around this subject in basically every society around the world. If you just mention the words "I am suicidal" in the presence of a doctor or psychiatrist it can have serious consequences for your personal freedom for a long time, implying that this might result in an admission to a psych ward and probably even involuntary treatments. These are serious human rights violations and many of us that want to experience that because it's traumatic and the treatment of mentally ill people often is inhumane in these institutions. There are many studies that prove that these treatments aren't successful.

In my opinion, there are several reasons why suicide as a legalized process, also called assisted suicide, would benefit society and work in terms of harm reduction. let me explain:

1. Legalizing assisted suicide would imply that we respect someones autonomy and freedom to end their suffering. Relief from pain is a good thing. And if someones experienced suffering is so strong that they want to end life, they should have every right to do that. Nobody of us ever gave consent to life, so why do I need someones permission to end it? If we generally respect the autonomy and freedom of humans on a fundamental level, we also have to accept that some may use that [autonomy and freedom] to end their life. That's the consequence of free will and we have to accept that.

2. Legalizing assisted suicide would also imply that we respect their dignity and give them means to leave peacefully. I don't want people to hang or shoot themselves because it contains a serious risk for permanent damage and it's anything but peaceful -that's why I advocate for the normalization of methods free from pain and discomfort. I think we all can agree that hanging yourself in a closet in complete secrecy is also anything but a dignified exit, nobody of us wants to be found like that either. I think people deserve to leave with dignity and that's why I'll always advocate for a legal process that allows consenting adults to leave peacefully, with the best method: N and also officially. If we implement such process and kill the stigma around suicide, it also allows people to leave surrounded by loved ones. No suicides in forced secrecy anymore, spend your last moments with people you appreciate... they also wouldn't have to face legal consequences anymore just for being present in your departure. This forum proves how many of us leave alone and completely isolated from others - and that's rather sad in my opinion.

3. Legalizing assisted suicide would avoid gruesome and brutal deaths. Some people argue that assisted suicide wouldn't reduce the number of violent suicides, for example jumping in front of a train or from a building, because those suicides (apparently and according to them) happen on impulse but that's not true - not all people that chose such methods act impulsive. There are many long-term members in this forum, that express suicidality and consider the train, jumping or even the hanging method due to lack of methods. Nobody really wants to jump in front of a train but if there are no methods, and not all of us can obtain SN or N easily, they pick trains instead. They also pick trains if they're uninformed or uneducated about peaceful suicide methods because it's the most obvious and the fastest way to death. Legalizing suicide, and I can't stress this enough, would solve this issue and if that's not possible, we should at least inform people on peaceful methods to prevent brutal suicides. The truth is, you can't stop suicides and you shouldn't anyway if we accept the premise of my first point about autonomy. And let's face it, all the people that advocate for the ban of SN (Hi FT26) would rather see us all jump in front of a train just to satisfy their warfare against the right to die movement. This method is always gonna be accessible, no matter how much you try to prevent it... or do you want to ban trains next? So again, legalize assisted suicide and solve this issue once and for all.

4. Legalizing assisted suicide might prevent murder-suicides. Let me give you an example: there is a popular case about a German pilot that literally crashed his plane with +100 passengers into a mountain back in 2015 () and according to medical records he was struggling mentally. I have zero sympathy for this person and taking so many lives with you on your way out is selfish and cruel but this could have been prevented, if there is a peaceful way out for people that don't feel any desire to continue life anymore. If you're a pilot and your only method that seems accessible is a literal plane, you might actually consider using this method because it's all you have. And that's probably what happened in this case. It's very tragic but I'm sure this could have been prevented if there was no stigma around suicide. We need face suicidal people on an equal footing and show them the respect they deserve. But that's not happening right now - we, as a society, are looking down on struggling people that deal with suicide ideation and that's inhumane and wrong on many levels. This leads to desperation and eventually to desperate measures as displayed in this tragic suicide event.

So again. We should legalize assisted suicide. Giving people a peaceful way out isn't cruel or cold, it's an act of mercy and empathy. It's the least we can do as a society, grant a person their last wish for a peaceful and dignified way out. If that's not possible, then we should at least have the responsibility to inform consenting adults about their methods to prepare them as best as remotely possible and give them an actual choice. I'm in favor of giving people control over their own lives. We should show them options. Everyone deserves to make that personal and intimate decision for themselves. The right to die is a fundamental but often overlooked pillar when it comes to human rights.

 

[Life_and_Death]

i agree but what about the ones that do have something to live for. that will get better. people that it really is an irrational thought. youre giving them this advantage as well.

 

[RainAndSadness]

i agree but what about the ones that do have something to live for. that will get better. people that it really is an irrational thought. youre giving them this advantage as well.

I'm also advocating for eliminating the causes that lead to suicide and in favor of creating a more compassionate, supportive society. You can go both ways. For example, I'm vocal when it comes to bullying, it's one of many reasons why young people become suicidal and I've went through years of bullying myself. Sadly, we're not doing enough to combat this systemic issue and posting the suicide hotline on social media (great 'suicide prevention' strategy) certainly isn't gonna fix this either.

 

[Life_and_Death]

I'm also advocating for eliminating the causes for suicide and in favor of creating a more compassionate, supportive society. You can go both ways.

i think people should have to try therapy or something before being given this option, however i dont think a lot of people are openminded to this option. if they believe they wont get better then they wont. so its a really difficult road to call

 

[Gnip]

i think people should have to try therapy or something before being given this option, however i don't think a lot of people are openminded to this option. if they believe they wont get better then they wont. so its a really difficult road to call

This is because 99.999% of all therapists SUCK! My own major depressive disorder is iatrogenic in origin, installed in me as an adolescent by completely incompetent and stupid school psychologists in their early 20's. A couple of them admitted to me that they picked an easy major so they could spend their college years fucking, drinking and doing drugs. Everybody who has ever been to a college or university knows that this is a favorite college major of topless airhead Girls Gone Wild floozies and dumb jock frat house boys.

Sewer workers, ditch diggers, housekeepers and fuel delivery folks are hard working people I can respect because they help make civilized life possible for the rest of us. As for "therapists," that line of "work" has no right to exist, and should have gone the way of the dodo bird over 50 years ago....:

 

[Life_and_Death]

This is because 99.999% of all therapists SUCK! My own major depressive disorder is iatrogenic in origin, installed in me as an adolescent by completely incompetent and stupid school psychologists in their early 20's. A couple of them admitted to me that they picked an easy major so they could spend their college years fucking, drinking and doing drugs. Everybody who has ever been to a college or university knows that this is a favorite college major of Girls Gone Wild floozies and dumb jock frat house boys.

Sewer workers, ditch diggers, housekeepers and fuel delivery folks are people I can respect because they help make civilized life possible for the rest of us. As for "therapists," that line of "work" has no right to exist, and should have gone the way of the dodo bird over 50 years ago....:

i would love to see your response to the fact that i dont have a therapist. i am my therapist. i am also the one that decided what medications i am going to take. this is your life not theirs, you shouldnt be completely putting your trust in them like that, thats not how it works. if you want it to work it needs to be 50/50. you and the therapist have to work together or else it will never work.
however i have read about all the bad interactions and have had one myself, by lifting the stigma of suicide the idea is to fix this. to give people a better understanding of everything, including eliminating what doesnt help.

 

[Kat!]

sure call the cops on me because I say I'm suicidal that oughta help my condition

 

[FuneralCry]

People shouldn't be forced to suffer. If someone has no quality of life they should get an peaceful way out. It's inevitable that people are going to cbt so there should be euthanasia to stop people having trauma from seeing dead bodies.

 

[Lefty]

I agree that assissted suicide should be legal.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I absolutely agree with most of what you said here and I wish there were more voices like yours because I think it's so important. Some comments:

• I think that even if we had consented to life, then we still shouldn't require permission to end it, so that argument is shaky in my opinion.
• You mentioned "free will" and this phrase has a typical definition but I'm not sure how you're using it here. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you're saying we're free, or at least should be free to choose. But the phrase "free will" usually refers to the contentious idea that we're the ultimate authors of our own thoughts/actions/desires. For this reason I would avoid the phrase, but obviously I'm just suggesting, you can do as you please.
• I could definitely be wrong, but I think it's well established that the vast majority of suicides aren't impulsive at all, most of them involve huge amounts of thinking and planning beforehand.

Fantastic post though and I would love for policy makers to read it and consider the points made.

 

[Tintypographer]

The thing I fear with legalizing it is the concept of it becoming a "drive thru" option for people in momentary pain who haven't had the frame of reference to know things could get better. I'm not.using that argument at all with anyone who is in a battle of severe depression that has exhausted many options and therapy isn't working or someone with terminal.illness. what I am concerned about is the 21 year old failngntwo classes in college who.thinks their life is over just because of that or a teenage mom in the throes of postpartum or even a person undergoing bullying that needs help. I worry that a for profit machine would see that as an opportunity rather than screening to make sure they really have lost all hope and the pain is just too great. I do think it should be legal but the people consideitng the legislation are either completely anti suicide or could be too open to freedom of choice to understand that some people really do just need a little help.

 

[Superdeterminist]

i think people should have to try therapy or something before being given this option, however i dont think a lot of people are openminded to this option. if they believe they wont get better then they wont. so its a really difficult road to call

Why in your opinion should it be mandatory for people to try therapy before being allowed to ctb?

 

[FuneralCry]

They would never allow euthanasia for momentary pain. In other countries where it's legal now. I'm pretty sure people have to have an debilitating condition to do it.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Why in your opinion should it be mandatory for people to try therapy before being allowed to ctb?

because its like @FuneralCry said "momentary pain". you wont know unless you try.

 

[Gnip]

i would love to see your response to the fact that i don't have a therapist. i am my therapist. i am also the one that decided what medications i am going to take. this is your life not theirs, you shouldn't be completely putting your trust in them like that, that's not how it works. if you want it to work it needs to be 50/50. you and the therapist have to work together or else it will never work.
however i have read about all the bad interactions and have had one myself, by lifting the stigma of suicide the idea is to fix this. to give people a better understanding of everything, including eliminating what doesn't help.

What I have are prescribers, psychiatrists who can prescribe medications, authorize treatments like ECT (which I have already undergone) rTMS (which I have not attempted), overnight sleep studies and sleep equipment (which I have received), deep brain stimulation (which has been ruled out for me), along with other tests and procedures (like brain imaging). I hire people who are exclusively about the medicine ONLY, no psychoquackery, "feelings" or other bullshit.

I am thoroughly recorded as enthusiastic about undergoing biofeedback with a Biofeedback Certification International Alliance credentialed practitioner, a physician certified in the practice of Autogenic Training, receiving Clinical Hypnosis, and undergoing acupuncture (which my primary care physician actually does practice, and I've been encouraging her to consider adding Clinical Hypnoses to acupuncture for supplementing her skill set after we're vaccinated against this damned virus), but covered clinical training in these drug alternative modalities is simply not available where I live.

Because of my disastrous combination of life disabling attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (Hyperkinetic Reaction of Childhood in DSM-II) and severe congenital obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), I am completely unable to make use of my decades of massive research for myself (but you might be stunned at how radically my layperson self has single handedly changed the clinical literature on these conditions), but like yourself, I do indeed dictate the nature of my treatment to the extent of the modalities available in my isolated rural area. (Nathaniel Branden cautioned his readers in the field of psychology against allowing their clientele to dictate the nature of treatment, but that was long before the status of the talk therapist as an authority figure was demolished for all time by the advent of SSRIs. Branden, like Dave Burns, Gary Emery, Albert Ellis, Milton Erickson and Tim Beck, proved to be a unique individual talent beyond any methodology they devised.)

 

[Life_and_Death]

i cant talk to closedminded people

 

[Superdeterminist]

The thing I fear with legalizing it is the concept of it becoming a "drive thru" option for people in momentary pain who haven't had the frame of reference to know things could get better. I'm not.using that argument at all with anyone who is in a battle of severe depression that has exhausted many options and therapy isn't working or someone with terminal.illness. what I am concerned about is the 21 year old failngntwo classes in college who.thinks their life is over just because of that or a teenage mom in the throes of postpartum or even a person undergoing bullying that needs help. I worry that a for profit machine would see that as an opportunity rather than screening to make sure they really have lost all hope and the pain is just too great. I do think it should be legal but the people consideitng the legislation are either completely anti suicide or could be too open to freedom of choice to understand that some people really do just need a little help.

I take your point about the potential for businesses to go about it in a predatory way just for profit. However, I don't agree that suicide is necessarily to be avoided just because there may be a light at the end of the tunnel. I don't know what my future will be, regardless I still want to ctb.

They would never allow euthanasia for momentary pain. In other countries where it's legal now. I'm pretty sure people have to have an debilitating condition to do it.

Well, I do hope you're wrong. It may be a long way off, but never? Never is a big word.

because its like @FuneralCry said "momentary pain". you wont know unless you try.

Okay. But if someone acknowledges that they're situation isn't necessarily 100% doomed, and they still want to forgo therapy and just ctb just because they feel like it, is that wrong?

 

[fly away]

The sad thing is that there are so many people who actually work in the mental health field who stigmatize mental illnesses. I have had this for 50 yrs. CPTSD, MDD, treatment resistant. Tried 30 yrs of different types of therapy. Had ECT. Lost my career. Had cancer. Tried Ketamine. Am trying to get into some clinical trials. Am in DBT. Am having trauma treatment. For me, this is not a temporary problem. I have radically accepted that my life is most likely not going to change at this point. When is it ever enough? Why can't I have control over the rest of my life? I'm actually willing to be the poster child for this. How did Roe v Wade begin?
Sorry for venting.

 

[Sensei]

• I could definitely be wrong, but I think it's well established that the vast majority of suicides aren't impulsive at all, most of them involve huge amounts of thinking and planning beforehand.

Not meaning to be a nitpick, but I wouldn't say that it's a vast majority. The studies I've seen suggest that everything from 26 % to 48 % of all suicides are impulsive.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Not meaning to be a nitpick, but I wouldn't say that it's a vast majority. The studies I have seen suggest that everything from 26 % to 48 % of all suicides are impulsive.

Sure you could definitely be right, I don't know the statistics, I just vaguely recall that from somewhere I don't even remember. I don't actually know what the reality is. It's also tricky because how do we define "impulsive" exactly?

 

[Life_and_Death]

It's also tricky because how do we define "impulsive" exactly?

this is exactly my point.

also to the other thing, im not saying its wrong. in a case like that it depends on the person and i think in that case they should have a lengthy conversation with an unbiased professional to get their thoughts out and fully understand everything before making the final desision.

 

[Superdeterminist]

this is exactly my point.

also to the other thing, im not saying its wrong. in a case like that it depends on the person and i think in that case they should have a lengthy conversation with an unbiased professional to get their thoughts out and fully understand everything before making the final desision.

Okay. But actually I just don't know how it follows that if something is impulsive, then it's necessarily 'bad'. Impulsivity seems to have negative connotations because it can and does lead to harmful outcomes in many cases in reality, but by no means universally. Intrinsically, I can't see that an action's being impulsive automatically makes it immoral or otherwise undesirable.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Okay. But actually I just don't know how it follows that if something is impulsive, then it's necessarily 'bad'. Impulsivity seems to have negative connotations because it can and does lead to harmful outcomes in many cases in reality, but by no means universally. Intrinsically, I can't see that an action's being impulsive automatically makes it immoral or otherwise undesirable.

i didnt say that. i dont think i did anyway and if i did i didnt mean to even infer it. if i do go through with suicide it will be a planned impulsivity.

 

[Superdeterminist]

i didnt say that. i dont think i did anyway and if i did i didnt mean to even infer it. if i do go through with suicide it will be a planned impulsivity.

Okay. And I want to say that I think personally, there's nothing wrong with advising suicidal people about potential treatments, that's only a good thing I think. I just think that forced treatment is immoral in any case where the disease is not obviously contagious (cancer, depression, genetic disorders, etc) and thus posing a threat to others.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Okay. And I want to say that I think personally, there's nothing wrong with advising suicidal people about potential treatments, that's only a good thing I think. I just think that forced treatment is immoral in any case where the disease is not obviously contagious (cancer, depression, genetic disorders, etc) and thus posing a threat to others.

im not talking forced treatment. forced isnt going to help anyone. im talking about people being openminded to trying it. sorry if i didnt make that clear.

 

[Gnip]

i cant talk to closedminded people

Okay. Now if a professional cannot talk to a person who is determined to CTB, then as far as I am concerned, that is an automatic green light for euthanasia or physician assisted suicide. That person's mind is already made up. End of story.

Unless professionals can succeed at opening the minds of closed minded CTB aspirants up, then it is indeed "Game over."

Medication can sometimes avert this (however temporarily), drugs for pain relief, central nervous system stimulants like modafinil can reinvigorate the chronically enervated, prescribed sleep aids can relieve insomnia, and antidepressant treatments (not necessarily drugs) can elevate and stabilize moods, thus reversing the desire to CTB (again, however temporarily).

Suicide is a permanent solution to a permanent problem. If professionals want to prevent this from happening, force them to have no option but to outcompete suicide. Prove to the suffering that life is a superior option by STOPPING their suffering. It really is that simple. Impossible? Then again, "Game over."

Lives HAVE to be placed before profits. Taking a vow of poverty is what all entrants into the field of counseling should accept, and that's why I recommend talking to confidential priests for spilling one's guts without fear of being reported or institutionalized. A priest has no option but to keep his mouth shut or be excommunicated.

At the extraordinary conclusion of "A Brief Guide to Brief Therapy," Brian Cade and Bill O'Hanlon make the most incredible inadvertent endorsement of an antagonist author and protocol I have ever read, when they warn their readers about "a somewhat dangerous therapist named Moshe Talmon. Most of us can make a decent living if we can cure our patients in three to five sessions, but if word gets out that much help can be obtained in just a single session, most of us will have to take up taxi cab driving or something else to supplement our income." Too fucking bad for the counseling racket, and bless Moshe Talmon, the greatest hero the mental health field has produced in the last 35 years. (Yes, I have Single Session Therapy and Single Session Solutions in my library.)

 

[Tintypographer]

Hidden Base: I don't think it is wrong at all. I was just commenting mostly from the perspective of legislation. Suicide and the emotions and decisions are complicated and laws around them will run into tons of things to sort out and tons of opposition and in some ways, problems with people who have bad reasons for wanting legislation passed. Maybe that would all be something that works it's way out after it passes. People always push the envelope. I do think it should be legal and that discussions like this should occur to facilitate the legislation. I just know that the loudest groups are often the most easily offended and they seem to get their way a lot which is definitely a problem for legislation around suicide and assisted suicide.

 

[Life_and_Death]

Unless professionals can succeed at opening the minds of closed minded

it is up to the individual NOT the professional. if one refuses to listen then that is their choice NOT the professionals

 

[Gnip]

The sad thing is that there are so many people who actually work in the mental health field who stigmatize mental illnesses. I have had this for 50 yrs. CPTSD, MDD, treatment resistant. Tried 30 yrs of different types of therapy. Had ECT. Lost my career. Had cancer. Tried Ketamine. Am trying to get into some clinical trials. Am in DBT. Am having trauma treatment. For me, this is not a temporary problem. I have radically accepted that my life is most likely not going to change at this point. When is it ever enough? Why can't I have control over the rest of my life? I'm actually willing to be the poster child for this. How did Roe v Wade begin?
Sorry for venting.

No need to apologize. Your experiences are a welcome and valued contribution to this thread. My former psychiatrist and her colleagues derisively referred to DBT as "Diabolical Behavioral Therapy," (and Topamax as "Dope-amax").

I received ketamine in a bid to boost the efficacy of my ECT. At a dose of 0.5 mg/kg, it left me feeling sick to my stomach, as if I had the mother of all hangovers. We had it reduced to a virtually homeopathic 0.25 mg/kg, but as the chief psychiatrist administering my ECT warned me when we met, it might be unlikely ECT could work for me with a major depressive disorder the duration of mine and yours. He was right (but also a damned good guy for his honest effort to help, and he knew how much I appreciated it).

Some psychiatrists are sufferers themselves, and they certainly do not stigmatize mental illnesses, but they are also blasted with demands for their services.

You and I do qualify for immediate psychiatrist administered euthanasia in Belgium and the Netherlands, but we would need to be citizens of those nations first. I think Oregon and California might be the first in the United States to follow that lead, although tiny Vermont might also be much closer to legalizing psychiatrist administered euthanasia than suspected.

it is up to the individual NOT the professional. if one refuses to listen then that is their choice NOT the professionals

Yes, and that also makes the decision to CTB the individual's choice as well. (As a practical matter, this is already the case. Katelyn Nicole Davis heroically hung herself on live.me four years ago at age 12. I agree with her decision and her assessment that her impoverished situation with a mental illness and drug addict lineage was hopeless and going to get worse. There is in fact word that her younger half siblings have been egregiously screwed since despite Katie's grand gesture, dropped through the cracks on their heads like she was, back in the clutches of their kiddy diddling father. Her situation is far from unique, but could not be swept under the rug as the authorities wanted because of how publicly she offed herself. She had already attempted to CTB and knew what she was doing. She'd also been the victim of an attempted rape and with a prostitute junkie mother and methamphetamine addicted aunt who would die just seven months later, she knew rape and getting pimped out by her mother was probably in her immediate future. She was a gifted person who belonged with a decent family, not the hellish existence she escaped from.)

 

[Amumu]

I love what you're writing @RainAndSadness but how could the law be passed in the next decade... it's nearly impossible.