S

summers

Visionary
Nov 4, 2020
2,495
Timeline - If you ctb in:
5 years - you won't really notice any change in population
10 years - things will probably start to seem crowded. Old infrastructure won't be able to keep up with the population in certain places.
20 years - the world will seem very different than it is today. Left unaltered, many places that don't seem crowded today will be like Mumbai.

The truth - the vast majority of humans (I would estimate 90%+) bring literally nothing to the table. They use more resources than they produce. They are uneducated, and only eat, mate, reproduce, and die. The problem is the dying is taking longer and longer, and more of there children are surviving.

What's going to happen. Truthfully, I don't know. But when the world reaches a population of 10-12 billion humans, with at least 8-10 billion of those beings useless drains on society's limited resources, something will have to happen. It would be interesting to see if the course of action is something subtle or radical.

What won't solve anything - War. Even if 1 billion people died, that would only be a drop in the bucket. Disease - again 1-2 billion deaths won't make a big difference. You would need to eliminate 5billion + people to have a measurable impact on the survivors quality of life for any appreciable amount of time.
 
E

Endeavour

Mage
Dec 13, 2020
566
Timeline - If you ctb in:
5 years - you won't really notice any change in population
10 years - things will probably start to seem crowded. Old infrastructure won't be able to keep up with the population in certain places.
20 years - the world will seem very different than it is today. Left unaltered, many places that don't seem crowded today will be like Mumbai.

The truth - the vast majority of humans (I would estimate 90%+) bring literally nothing to the table. They use more resources than they produce. They are uneducated, and only eat, mate, reproduce, and die. The problem is the dying is taking longer and longer, and more of there children are surviving.

What's going to happen. Truthfully, I don't know. But when the world reaches a population of 10-12 billion humans, with at least 8-10 billion of those beings useless drains on society's limited resources, something will have to happen. It would be interesting to see if the course of action is something subtle or radical.

What won't solve anything - War. Even if 1 billion people died, that would only be a drop in the bucket. Disease - again 1-2 billion deaths won't make a big difference. You would need to eliminate 5billion + people to have a measurable impact on the survivors quality of life for any appreciable amount of time.
Hence why everyone needs vaccinating - sterile, die of coronavirus over active immune response - 5 to 10 years - world population less than 1 billion.

Enjoy the ride, and thanks for all the fish.
 
S

summers

Visionary
Nov 4, 2020
2,495
Hence why everyone needs vaccinating - sterile, die of coronavirus over active immune response - 5 to 10 years - world population less than 1 billion.

Enjoy the ride, and thanks for all the fish.
I did my part - got a vasectomy at 20.
 
Imaginos

Imaginos

Full-time layabout
Apr 7, 2018
638
If the birth rate is significantly below replacement, it reduces the burden of child dependents, but the weight of the elderly eventually becomes crushing. There simply aren't enough healthcare workers in the next generation to take care of their elders.

Well, like I said, the decline in birth rate could've been managed more intelligently, so we could've avoided a situation like the kind that Japan, and most other first world nations, are now facing. That is, you have hordes of young people refusing to procreate on account of a significant lack of economic opportunities (indecent wages, ungainful employment, high cost of living, et cetera), and what was, by the way, otherwise available to previous generations. In fact, it can be argued that many of the elderly today are the ones directly responsible for the predicament they themselves are currently in. Boomers, infamous as they are, enthusiastically supported the conditions (epitomized by sorts like Ronald Reagan, whose polices essentially boiled down to "let's party hard now and fuck everyone else that comes after") which have now led to a steep decline in the birth rate and, with it, a lack of care for themselves in their old age, not to mention also creating a gaping hole that whatever future workers/taxpayers/consumers that exist won't be able to fill.

For what it's worth, I'm not saying we should all crash our populations overnight, but there does need to be a significant withdrawal from continuous growth, both in regards to our global population and our obscene consumption habits. There could've been a clear headed attempt made at accomplishing just something like this decades ago when people like Paul Erlich were loudly sounding the alarm on it, but were then quickly dismissed/ridiculed/silenced for the sake of keeping the good times rolling for past generations which are, of course, most of today's elderly. Instead of doing it the easy way, now it's going to happen the hard way. And part of that hard way is unfortunately going to include many sectors of society not having replacement level functionality, without relying on imperfect solutions like automation and immigration. The old made their bed, now they have to lay in it. I guess they should've thought of that sooner, before they sold out the future for their own bag of proverbial silver.

You can try to replace those care workers through immigration, but as mentioned previously, those immigrants typically have larger families, who begin to consume at 'western' standards. So it effectively counteracts the drop in the native birth rate, and reduces any positive environmental impact.

Part of the withdrawal from neverending growth, would also include the withdrawal from consumption as a means to measure each nation's "success". Consumerism as a concept is something that has been force fed to the rest of the world through mass marketing and advertising for decades. The standard set by the West for the last 70 years in this regard, has simply got to be dismantled. Whether it's immigrants or domestic citizens, neither can afford to consume at such reckless levels any longer. Whether you encourage more births, or open the flood gates on immigrants, this is still one of the primary bullet wounds that is not only killing any hope for a decent future, but also this planet's very ability to sustain us at all.

But I can't really blame the Japanese for wanting to preserve their distinctive culture, or for refusing mass immigration.

Japan is a sovereign nation and, of course, if it wants to hang itself on account of its own xenophobic traditions, it can freely go ahead and do so. If you ask me, this is simply their usual self-defeating stubbornness coming through. The Japanese have always loved/preferred to shoot themselves in the foot to save face, so if they're hellbent on doing it once again, then they can have at it. As an aside, it's funny how the Ainu and Ryukyu peoples were always discriminated against as "not being truly Japanese" by the Yamato majority, but now in the modern era with the threat of having to rely on all those nasty gaijin, suddenly the Ainu and Ryukyu are regarded as brothers in arms in the fight to keep Japan "pure".

1IeRZTY

A fitting and appropriate pic I feel, at least when it comes to describing Japan's less than wise stance here.

You may as well just encourage more native births, and you'd get the same result with less social tension.

Without a deescalation on growth, it'll make no difference. You can't have infinite growth on a finite planet. This is something that goes beyond matters of localized populations and whatever their replacement levels are. Gauging our societies based on growth, is like gauging the health of a malignant tumor at the expense of the host body, the presence of which will inevitably lead to the death of both. Having said that, the birth rate will continue to go down nonstop, so long as there remains zero room for the young to start meaningful lives of their own. Just like the now infamous painting of Jupiter eating his own son, the old devoured the young and stole from the future so they could live high off the hog. Japan and some parts of Europe are certainly a little less guilty of this than those in the USA are, but, like it or not, the trend of grotesque unsustainability was still there and the effects of it still resound out to this day. If Japan wants more Yamato births, here's a start. Maybe don't create cultural norms where it's not unusual for people to constantly work themselves to death (karoshi), or create an entire underclass of temp workers that have no benefits and dirt level wages (freeters), and then, surprise surprise, have enormous amounts of people who recoil from the soul crushing horror of it all and drop out of everything altogether (hikikomori).

What won't solve anything - War. Even if 1 billion people died, that would only be a drop in the bucket. Disease - again 1-2 billion deaths won't make a big difference. You would need to eliminate 5billion + people to have a measurable impact on the survivors quality of life for any appreciable amount of time.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the "four horsemen", as it were, haven't even gotten started yet. War, famine, disease, and death, will stampede across much of the human species. I'm annoyed by when my mother will sometimes say that a war, or a disease will help to curb the global population, mostly because, as you said, the total casualties are often only a drop in the bucket. However, with the advent of climate chaos and mass swathes of the planet swiftly becoming uninhabitable (such as low sea level countries like Bangladesh, or heat stroke likely zones which constitute much of North Africa), it's safe to say that there will be billions dead following the wake of such seismic changes. Lack of food, lack of living space, refugees movements that will number in the hundreds of millions. New devastating wars are coming, new plagues are coming, new famines are coming, new mass genocides are coming. Regardless of whether you believe they'll change anything or not, their happening is still a certainty.

By the way, I highly doubt the global population will ever reach 10-12 billion people. We're going to crash and wipe ourselves out long before that happens. It'll honestly be nothing short of a miracle if organized society is even still around 10 years from now.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Endeavour
E

Endeavour

Mage
Dec 13, 2020
566
@Imaginos - I was going to disagree with you for a minute saying 10 billion people is only 20 to 30 years in the future, but then you added the line that you doubt we'll be in anything other than chaos within in 10 years.

So I have to agree with you.

If people could just do the basic maths of population growth at different (even very low level) percentage growth, you can see we haven't long left, and if you add in the acceleration of extinction of species, rising food and oil prices, and etc - then it's clear we're only heading in one direction, and whatever the outcome it won't be pretty.

And it will be very soon we'll start to see it happening.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Imaginos
S

summers

Visionary
Nov 4, 2020
2,495
@Endeavour the funny thing is, if shit really started getting bad, I probably wouldn't want to ctb. I would want to see how long I could survive, and how many people I could take with me :wink:
 
  • Like
Reactions: signifying nothing
kane

kane

Student
Jun 26, 2020
171
In fact, it can be argued that many of the elderly today are the ones directly responsible for the predicament they themselves are currently in. Boomers, infamous as they are, enthusiastically supported the conditions (epitomized by sorts like Ronald Reagan, whose polices essentially boiled down to "let's party hard now and fuck everyone else that comes after") which have now led to a steep decline in the birth rate and, with it, a lack of care for themselves in their old age, not to mention also creating a gaping hole that whatever future workers/taxpayers/consumers that exist won't be able to fill.
Some boomers supported the neoliberal turn. Some didn't. I'm not generally a fan of assigning group responsibility - the fact that people are in the same age cohort doesn't mean they're somehow answerable for each other's decisions. And for those that did support Reagan or Thatcher (or others), I'm not sure they could've been expected to fully appreciate the consequences. It's unclear if there was a good answer to the crises of the 1970's, and Reagan represented optimism. It's not like a convincing alternative was being broadcast to the public.
there does need to be a significant withdrawal from continuous growth, both in regards to our global population and our obscene consumption habits.
Agreed. My suggestion is that the problem in the rich north is one of consumption, and that the problem in the poor south is one of population. Short of committing national suicide, attempting to reduce the population in areas it's already cratering won't do much to help.
The old made their bed, now they have to lay in it. I guess they should've thought of that sooner, before they sold out the future for their own bag of proverbial silver.
You can't expect the majority of the population to have foreseen the long term consequences of economic and social dynamics that no one fully understands. Scientific understanding of the seriousness of climate change didn't even reach government 'til the late 80's, let alone the general population. They didn't sell the future, they made a gamble that had poorly understood downsides.
Consumerism as a concept is something that has been force fed to the rest of the world through mass marketing and advertising for decades. The standard set by the West for the last 70 years in this regard, has simply got to be dismantled.
Agreed.
Just like the now infamous painting of Jupiter eating his own son, the old devoured the young and stole from the future so they could live high off the hog.
No one made that choice. They didn't understand that the system was unsustainable. And choosing not to participate in the system severely disadvantages you.
Maybe don't create cultural norms where it's not unusual for people to constantly work themselves to death (karoshi), or create an entire underclass of temp workers that have no benefits and dirt level wages (freeters)
I agree. It's part of the same mindset that believes unrestrained business interests will automatically generate social good. Proponents would say that all such issues are down to individual failings, and that as long as people are free to fail, the system is just. I don't think that's a worldview I could ever accept.
 
  • Like
Reactions: demuic
Imaginos

Imaginos

Full-time layabout
Apr 7, 2018
638
It's unclear if there was a good answer to the crises of the 1970's, and Reagan represented optimism. It's not like a convincing alternative was being broadcast to the public.

There was, but those alternatives were either crushed by corporate america, or dismissed out of hand by the majority of the population, so they could chase their chance at being excessively and grotesquely rich. Jimmy Carter was both the last, and perhaps one of the only, presidents/people in power who genuinely tried to get people to use less and adopt cleaner forms of energy. In his bid for a second term, he was crushed in the polls by Reagan and his promises of "Morning in America" where the shopping malls would be filled to bursting with random garbage that the public ate up and consumed like there was no tomorrow. Reagan was also infamous for tearing down the solar panels that Jimmy Carter had installed onto the white house. In effect, this action was a total rebuke to minimalism and weaning ourselves off growth based economics. Instead consumerism was pushed to full tilt and corporate america was allowed to do whatever it damn well pleased. Ever since Regan, every presidency has shared complete continuity in this agenda, whether they be republican or democrat. Everyday people tend to have no influence on the big decisions, this is true, but that doesn't mean that the large majority aren't as shortsighted, greedy and stupid as the most venal politicians out there. As far as I'm concerned, they bear the responsibility for their actions.

Short of committing national suicide, attempting to reduce the population in areas it's already cratering won't do much to help.

Well, a significant crash is coming whether we like it or not. To be honest, this trend towards a lower birth rate needed to happen decades ago. At this juncture, it's too little too late. On that basis, the topic is largely moot.

You can't expect the majority of the population to have foreseen the long term consequences of economic and social dynamics that no one fully understands.

There were those who tried to enlighten the public to this extent, but they were shouted down and silenced by the vast majority who didn't want to hear it. Ralph Nader, Paul Erlich, James Lovelock, James Hansen, et cetera. All these guys have been sounding the alarm for decades and the response from the majority of the public was always clear. "Shut the hell up. We don't care.". Either that, or utter silence and contempt, as people kept shambling like zombies to the mall hoping to one day rise above their status as "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", as John Steinbeck once put it. The large majority of people greedily signed up for the dream of having 100x as more than everyone else and, as far as their actions were concerned, whatever the consequences would be from that could simply go to hell. Fitting in a way, since hell on earth is exactly what's in store for us.

Scientific understanding of the seriousness of climate change didn't even reach government 'til the late 80's, let alone the general population.

A little over thirty years ago the first climate conference was held in the Netherlands, in Noordwijk. Governments came within a hair of making binding commitments to reduce their emissions. The americans however sent John Sununu (who was a long time lackey for fossil fuels interests) to keep track of their own representative at the conference. It became clear eventually that no binding commitments would be made.

The fossil fuel industry was still spooked however and began a massive lobbying and disinformation campaign, intended to convince the american public and its representatives that you can simply use the atmosphere as a waste dump and expect no consequences to follow. This led to two presidents who walked away from Kyoto and the Paris accords and no genuinely binding commitments have been made since.

Progressives were kept sedated with promises of a bright green future where electricity would be renewable and cars would run on electricity, but in the absence of binding commitments, these new technologies merely serve to supplement our energy budget, rather than displacing fossil fuels. When people switched to new SUVs, the rise in oil consumption entirely offset all the entire rise in electric vehicles. Yet, we're supposed to believe that these new technologies will solve our problem for us.

The consequence is that even today, according to experts we are still on track for more than four degree Celsius of global warming.

Keep in mind that there were in fact people who knew what was coming. The existence of the problem has been known since the late 19th century and the American Petroleum Institute was explicitly warned as early as 1959. The big fossil fuel companies knew this would be a problem long before the 1989 conference in Naaldwijk. They had plenty of time to react, that's how we ended up with a massive disinformation campaign.

The big oil companies knew what would happen and even to this day, companies like Shell are still making projections about how the future will look according to them. All their scenarios overshoot two degree of global warming, the IPCC, the Paris accords, all of these attempts at reigning in global warming are just a big joke to these people.

They didn't sell the future, they made a gamble that had poorly understood downsides.

Whether they were aware of it or not, they still either actively sold out the future, or stood idly by and watched it happen. Very few individuals ever had the temerity/integrity to stand up against the status quo and those that did are a microscopic fraction of the vast majority, who were either directly/indirectly responsible for the predicament we're now in. It was also never their right to make such a gamble in the first place.

No one made that choice. They didn't understand that the system was unsustainable. And choosing not to participate in the system severely disadvantages you.

Sitting on the fence and doing nothing is still a choice. Choosing not to choose anything is still a decision in itself. And the fact of the matter is that the public did make their choice, whether out of fear, complacency, or pure stupefying ignorance. The elderly are not innocent babies. They were once adults capable of rational thought and principled action. However, since everything seemed a-okay for them at the time, they regularly voted for and engaged in grossly unsustainable practices that have now led us over and beyond the precipice of no return. It is indeed difficult to not participate in the system, just as it was equally difficult for Germans during the era of Nazism to not pledge their allegiance to the party, since to refrain from doing so meant effectively committing career suicide, assuming they weren't just executed outright. Even to this day, there are still many who could be considered as "Good Germans", as they were called after the war, who simply do as they are told and keep their heads down, since to stand up for something different usually means running the risk of getting brutally hammered down by the powers that be.
 
Last edited:
Futile

Futile

Tired of being lonely
Sep 3, 2020
499
Overpopulation is already here and it's already a big problem, in fact I'd say it's one of the main causes of suicide. Check the universe 25 experiment if you wanna see the devastating effects of it
 
  • Like
Reactions: Manaaja

Similar threads

uniqueusername4
Replies
0
Views
128
Suicide Discussion
uniqueusername4
uniqueusername4
itswhatits
Replies
7
Views
272
Suicide Discussion
Z-A
Z-A
Darkover
Replies
0
Views
89
Offtopic
Darkover
Darkover