Discussion Why is suicide considered worse than other deaths?

[ericwilkinson]

I've found it interesting how society openly admits life is unfair, some people are cared for less than others but when it comes to suicide, the narrative is "no one lives in a vaccum, suicide wil devastate your family/friends" not taking into account that some don't have anyone to care for them.

Why does society go so insane over suicide? People will tell a homeless man on the streets that he'll devastate his non-existent family/friends.

I know how strongly people grieve suicide, I've been to the suicide of my basketball coach but I still think people should have the right.

Why would humans evolve not to want suicide.

 

[whyidon'tknow]

I think if society made suicide a more socially acceptable thing a lot more people would ctb.

 

[Meretlein]

Allowing people to kill themselves would be seen as an indictment on the value of life. People feel like the value of their own lives are being attacked when you take pro-choice or antinatalist stances.

 

[puppy9]

People are selfish, you see all the rituals ostensibly for the dead, it's not for the dead but for the living, unable to accept death as it is, so they meander through traditions just to appease themselves.

 

[Orin]

I think if society made suicide a more socially acceptable thing a lot more people would ctb.

Yeah, it will be a domino effect.

 

[not_a_robot]

Because it is a rejection of the social paradigm, an unacceptable display of autonomy in the face of social disapproval.

Basically it implies they can't control you, "they" being the group-mind that dictates acceptable social behavior. It is a rejection of all that they believe makes their lives "precious".

 

[whyidon'tknow]

Yeah, it will be a domino effect.

Absolutely.

 

[not_a_robot]

Allowing people to kill themselves would be seen as an indictment on the value of life. People feel like the value of their own lives are being attacked when you take pro-choice or antinatalist stances.

Yes, just like how they think marriage can only be between a man and a woman, and gay marriage somehow makes straight marriage meaningless (as if all the infidelity they think they're getting away with hasn't already made a mockery of marriage anyway).

Neurotypicals are incapable of independent thought outside the context of competition. So you can't just make a different choice than them; they need to view your choice as *competition* against their choice. Something to fight about, which they love more than anything.

 

[Jessica5]

I feel sad about anybody's death. Including a suicide. Even though their death was probably best for them, it's hard not to feel sad about it.

 

[bluesky1972-2019]

I think people see life as the be all and end all. Nobody really knows what happens after we die. I always find it fascinating to think about how the universe has been around for millions of years and probably will be for millions more. Our lives are insignificant compared to this. We are around for a fraction of time no matter how you choose to leave this life!

 

[Scribble Fan]

I can't remember where I read this but I recall Christianity being blamed for demonizing suicide. It makes sense from an almost evolutionary point of view. If you force everyone to not die and instead reproduce you will out populate all other religions and "win".

So like not_a_robot said, I believe it's a form of misguided control and meaningless competition.

 

[SinisterKid]

I've found it interesting how society openly admits life is unfair, some people are cared for less than others but when it comes to suicide, the narrative is "no one lives in a vaccum, suicide wil devastate your family/friends" not taking into account that some don't have anyone to care for them.

Why does society go so insane over suicide? People will tell a homeless man on the streets that he'll devastate his non-existent family/friends.

I know how strongly people grieve suicide, I've been to the suicide of my basketball coach but I still think people should have the right.

Why would humans evolve not to want suicide.

Religion.

 

[ddutch]

I've found it interesting how society openly admits life is unfair, some people are cared for less than others but when it comes to suicide, the narrative is "no one lives in a vaccum, suicide wil devastate your family/friends" not taking into account that some don't have anyone to care for them.

Why does society go so insane over suicide? People will tell a homeless man on the streets that he'll devastate his non-existent family/friends.

I know how strongly people grieve suicide, I've been to the suicide of my basketball coach but I still think people should have the right.

Why would humans evolve not to want suicide.

There is a movie on netflix about suicide and life after death. Its with Richard gere, it shows the implications with suicide and life after death in society in a way.

Maybe a good one to watch it makes you think also.

But here in holland they are more open about suicide and assited suicide. Its just naïef thinking of people that life is always happily ever after

 

[not_a_robot]

I can't remember where I read this but I recall Christianity being blamed for demonizing suicide. It makes sense from an almost evolutionary point of view. If you force everyone to not die and instead reproduce you will out populate all other religions and "win".

So like not_a_robot said, I believe it's a form of misguided control and meaningless competition.

I think Schopenhauer was the first to state it publically.

 

[Niko]

I think people feel the person committing the act is selfishly affecting everyone else around them, because the fact is anytime somebody dies the people around them are severely hit with the pain of picking up the pieces afterwards, and so when you commit suicide you are willingly choosing to create this intense loss in the world that cannot ever be replaced. I can see why people would be opposed to that because yes it does hurt for someone to disappear forever and just like we would be upset with a murderer for killing our loved ones we are upset with a person who takes their own life too, in both cases a precious life was indeed taken except in the suicide case it was taken by that same life itself of course.
but I don't think people appreciate how miserable it is for that person to carry on in suffering in this world. would they rather people just continue to suffer forever? who does it benefit when somebody has clearly given up and does not want to be here anymore? do you just want them to be forced to stay here for your sake? maybe it'd be best for everyone to let people decide for themselves and for us to accept each other's choices.

that being said, I probably would try to keep a loved one from ctb if I could. I just feel like it's an extremely serious and permanent step and so I'd want to make absolutely sure that the person considering ctb has exhausted all potential solutions to their problems, and I'd want them to realize that they at least do matter to me because sometimes people feel like nobody cares when in fact a lot of people do but maybe don't show it often enough. again, in the end it's up to them to decide but I do think it's fair to at least tell them to hold on for as long as they can because there is always a slight chance things can turn around and get better. If not then I'd accept their final choice and I'd understand.

 

[not_a_robot]

I just realized it's also frowned upon for the same reasons as prostitution; gives people too much free will.
Gives poor people a quick way to economic empowerment (how can we oppress them if they become rich selling sex?), gives buyers too much freedom of sexual choice (why would anyone ever get married if they could just fuck whenever they want?).

Basically, allowing people actual freedom would destroy the false system that keeps people "in their proper place" (meaning, powerless to challenge the powerful).

I think people feel the person committing the act is selfishly affecting everyone else around them, because the fact is anytime somebody dies the people around them are severely hit with the pain of picking up the pieces afterwards, and so when you commit suicide you are willingly choosing to create this intense loss in the world that cannot ever be replaced. I can see why people would be opposed to that because yes it does hurt for someone to disappear forever and just like we would be upset with a murderer for killing our loved ones we are upset with a person who takes their own life too, in both cases a precious life was indeed taken except in the suicide case it was taken by that same life itself of course.
but I don't think people appreciate how miserable it is for that person to carry on in suffering in this world. would they rather people just continue to suffer forever? who does it benefit when somebody has clearly given up and does not want to be here anymore? do you just want them to be forced to stay here for your sake? maybe it'd be best for everyone to let people decide for themselves and for us to accept each other's choices.

that being said, I probably would try to keep a loved one from ctb if I could. I just feel like it's an extremely serious and permanent step and so I'd want to make absolutely sure that the person considering ctb has exhausted all potential solutions to their problems, and I'd want them to realize that they at least do matter to me because sometimes people feel like nobody cares when in fact a lot of people do but maybe don't show it often enough. again, in the end it's up to them to decide but I do think it's fair to at least tell them to hold on for as long as they can because there is always a slight chance things can turn around and get better. If not then I'd accept their final choice and I'd understand.

I have no sympathy with the argument that "it upsets people".
Fuck them, they will get over it the same way they get over it whenever another stranger dies.
There really are people in this world that nobody cares about, and we deserve a peaceful exit. I have zero concern for how people who didn't give a fuck about me when I was alive will feel after I'm dead. Fuck 'em, they'll get over it.

 

[Pistolero114]

It's considered worse than other deaths because we as children are not taught about death as we grow and become more self aware. Not having been taught that death; any death is actually a significant part of the whole living process. People can't deal with it so they demonize suicide and therefore dehumanize the individual who opted out. I believe that Admiral James Thaddeus Kirk said it best in Star Trek II The Wrath of Kahn. "How we deal with death is most certainly as important as how we deal with life". AND..."A non win situation is the possibility that every commander faces". Just my thoughts....doesn't make them right or applicable; just mine.

 

[Mbound]

Because they think it's entirely preventable, and only happens because people haven't tried enough therapy or reached out to the right help line or what have you. That's of course bullshit, but it's the common opinion

Oh, and because it's a """"permanent solution to a temporary problem"""".

 

[Final Escape]

I've noticed it's really difficult to ctb because the body automatically wants to reject your wishes to destroy it. If it was really easy to override the survival instinct, it probably would not be beneficial to the species. We would go extinct. Life is suffering for everyone, even if you are rich u aren't immune to the tragedies of living but surely it makes it a little easier to live through tragedy if u aren't really poor on top of it.

The whole point of life is to pursue things that give you meaning and to be outside of yourself. This is why it often feels better if u are needed by people at a job, family, and friends. It gives u a feeling of purpose. I don't think it's normal to want to ctb especially if you can meet most of your important human needs. Terminally ill people I can understand who are almost at the end anyway. Psychological suffering can be treated but not like quickly or easily so I understand why many people think it should be a legit enough reason to ctb.

And my point? I don't have a point lol!

 

[Pistolero114]

One more thought and then I'll shut up. Choosing your time and way out is the ULTIMATE empowerment. You're giving the middle finger to life and saying "F**k you life; you can't fire me; I QUIT!!!"

Ok.... shutting up now.

Because they think it's entirely preventable, and only happens because people haven't tried enough therapy or reached out to the right help line or what have you. That's of course bullshit, but it's the common opinion

Oh, and because it's a """"permanent solution to a temporary problem"""".

I hate that quote. The people who say it are people who haven't truly suffered in my opinion. Sorry... but that's how I feel.

I've noticed it's really difficult to ctb because the body automatically wants to reject your wishes to destroy it. If it was really easy to override the survival instinct, it probably would not be beneficial to the species. We would go extinct. Life is suffering for everyone, even if you are rich u aren't immune to the tragedies of living but surely it makes it a little easier to live through tragedy if u aren't really poor on top of it.

The whole point of life is to pursue things that give you meaning and to be outside of yourself. This is why it often feels better if u are needed by people at a job, family, and friends. It gives u a feeling of purpose. I don't think it's normal to want to ctb especially if you can meet most of your important human needs. Terminally ill people I can understand who are almost at the end anyway. Psychological suffering can be treated but not like quickly or easily so I understand why many people think it should be a legit enough reason to ctb.

And my point? I don't have a point lol!

Ok. You don't have a point. How about a joint? Anyone have one of those?

 

[alizee]

Suicide is labeled ill because of religion.

The free will illusion reinforced by religion has made people think one death cannot be a natural death and compared to another they assume is natural. All deaths are natural deaths because free will doesn't exist. You don't choose suicide and it comes like any other death for however a person dies.

All events factor from the preceding events and whatever death you have is fated by all the forces exerted upon you since birth. Suicide is the same as a person dying from an illness or from old age. All the events factored into a person dying from suicide. No control or decision made by a person is really their own. People just assume it because of the free will illusion that's been placed on society by religion. Even people not born into religion think of free will because of how ingrained society is from religion.

 

[Niko]

I just realized it's also frowned upon for the same reasons as prostitution; gives people too much free will.
Gives poor people a quick way to economic empowerment (how can we oppress them if they become rich selling sex?), gives buyers too much freedom of sexual choice (why would anyone ever get married if they could just fuck whenever they want?).

Basically, allowing people actual freedom would destroy the false system that keeps people "in their proper place" (meaning, powerless to challenge the powerful).

I have no sympathy with the argument that "it upsets people".
Fuck them, they will get over it the same way they get over it whenever another stranger dies.
There really are people in this world that nobody cares about, and we deserve a peaceful exit. I have zero concern for how people who didn't give a fuck about me when I was alive will feel after I'm dead. Fuck 'em, they'll get over it.

well I do have sympathy for that argument because I have lost people to suicide and yeah believe it or not it was extremely heartbreaking; not saying of course that they didn't have a right to do what they did because they totally do have the right, just like the people they leave behind totally have a right to feel what they feel about it.

I'm sorry that you don't have people who care for you in your life but consider that I'm speaking for what I know myself and I do know in my situation at least people do care about me and that's part of what makes this so hard, and I do not think I'm alone in sharing this sentiment. I don't want to hurt them and I know doing this will do so, but I also can't just keep going on for their sake only. I wish I could simply say "fuck 'em" but then I'd be lying to myself, the fact is this is gonna be a rough time for the people I very much don't want to see upset when I go, but I believe if I can realize and accept this fact head on, and not pretend it's not there, then I'll be making the right choice. In the end it's my life and I'll do it with it what I please and maybe the people around me will eventually appreciate how hard I tried to hang on and avoid this, or maybe not.

 

[not_a_robot]

well I do have sympathy for that argument because I have lost people to suicide and yeah believe it or not it was extremely heartbreaking; not saying of course that they didn't have a right to do what they did because they totally do have the right, just like the people they leave behind totally have a right to feel what they feel about it.

I'm sorry that you don't have people who care for you in your life but consider that I'm speaking for what I know myself and I do know in my situation at least people do care about me and that's part of what makes this so hard, and I do not think I'm alone in sharing this sentiment. I don't want to hurt them and I know doing this will do so, but I also can't just keep going on for their sake only. I wish I could simply say "fuck 'em" but then I'd be lying to myself, the fact is this is gonna be a rough time for the people I very much don't want to see upset when I go, but I believe if I can realize and accept this fact head on, and not pretend it's not there, then I'll be making the right choice. In the end it's my life and I'll do it with it what I please and maybe the people around me will eventually appreciate how hard I tried to hang on and avoid this, or maybe not.

Not only are you "not alone" in your sentiments, they are the most cliche' status quo regarding suicide, we have them rammed down our throats every time the topic of suicide is mentioned. "Think of alllll the people who looooooove you! They'll be soooooo sad! boo hoo! boo hoo!"
That's great for people who feel well-loved but has no impact on those of us who are solitary.
The people who nobody ever speaks up for are the ones most in need of a peaceful end to their suffering, the ones who nobody will ever care for. And there are plenty.

 

[Pistolero114]

Not only are you "not alone" in your sentiments, they are the most cliche' status quo regarding suicide, we have them rammed down our throats every time the topic of suicide is mentioned. "Think of alllll the people who looooooove you! They'll be soooooo sad! boo hoo! boo hoo!"
That's great for people who feel well-loved but has no impact on those of us who are solitary.
The people who nobody ever speaks up for are the ones most in need of a peaceful end to their suffering, the ones who nobody will ever care for. And there are plenty.

Unfortunately; I am inclined to agree. You are correct.

 

[Oblivion Lover]

Neurotypicals are incapable of independent thought outside the context of competition. So you can't just make a different choice than them; they need to view your choice as *competition* against their choice. Something to fight about, which they love more than anything.

This makes me happy that I'm not neurotypical. Asperger may make living in society more complicated, but in return I was gifted with the capability to think on my own because I never liked society, and I never conformed to their rules, even when I was a kid. I'm starting to agree with those that say that autism is not a disease, just a different, potentially superior way to see the world.

 

[Pistolero114]

This makes me happy that I'm not neurotypical. Asperger may make living in society more complicated, but in return I was gifted with the capability to think on my own because I never liked society, and I never conformed to their rules, even when I was a kid. I'm starting to agree with those that say that autism is not a disease, just a different, potentially superior way to see the world.

HEAR HEAR!!!!! I concur. Excellent point.

 

[not_a_robot]

Unfortunately; I am inclined to agree. You are correct.

I didn't mean to imply that any circumstance is more "deserving" of a peaceful exit than any other, only that the people who nobody loves are never considered in the debate about legal suicide. It's always a bunch of BS rhetoric about how "loved" suicidal people are. Which I believe are the minority of suicidal people.

This makes me happy that I'm not neurotypical. Asperger may make living in society more complicated, but in return I was gifted with the capability to think on my own because I never liked society, and I never conformed to their rules, even when I was a kid. I'm starting to agree with those that say that autism is not a disease, just a different, potentially superior way to see the world.

Detachment from irrational emotions is not a curse, it's a blessing. Autistics only *think* it's a curse because irrational, overemotional neurotypicals *told* them that.
NTs try to destroy your intellect with their emotional games because they feel insecure and want to bring you down to their primitive level. Don't let them.

 

[Pistolero114]

I didn't mean to imply that any circumstance is more "deserving" of a peaceful exit than any other, only that the people who nobody loves are never considered in the debate about legal suicide. It's always a bunch of BS rhetoric about how "loved" suicidal people are. Which I believe are the minority of suicidal people.

I've always heard that sort of tripe from people who simply do not have the depth of consciousness that I have found those with "suicidal tendencies" have. Those people are some of my favorite human beings. They see the truth in the world around them and try to speak it but few listen and fewer understand. If they're so concerned and they love someone then where in the hell are they when real support is needed? I tried. For four years I counseld folks dealing with the world's shit. And when some of them left on their own terms I was saddened that I had not been able to help enough. Their "loved" ones took me to court saying I hadn't done enough. I went out at three four five o'clock in the morning to pick up and take people on my watch wherever they wanted to go for help. I tried. Hard. Their loved ones only saw it as a way to make money. That was my last time in the helping professions. That was thirteen years ago and I've never gone back. Parked my licensure in NYS and said NO MORE. The bottom line in health care in the US is how much money do you have? The more money the higher end the treatment. Here we put a dollar and cents price tags on human misery. I am reminded of something I read; "When the power of love overcomes the love of power then and ONLY THEN will the world know peace". Thanks for listening. I'll shut up now....

 

[not_a_robot]

I've always heard that sort of tripe from people who simply do not have the depth of consciousness that I have found those with "suicidal tendencies" have. Those people are some of my favorite human beings. They see the truth in the world around them and try to speak it but few listen and fewer understand. If they're so concerned and they live someone then where in the hell are they when real support is needed? I tried. For four years I counseld folks dealing with the world's shit. And when some of them left on their own terms I was saddened that I had not been able to help enough. Their "loved" ones took me to court saying I hadn't done enough. I went out at three four five o'clock in the morning to pick up and take people on my watch wherever they wanted to go for help. I tried. Hard. Their loved ones only saw it as a way to make money. That was my last time in the helping professions. That was thirteen years ago and I've never gone back. Parked my licensure in NYS and said NO MORE. The bottom line in health care in the US is how much money do you have? The more money the higher end the treatment. Here we put a dollar ND cents price tags on human misery. I am reminded of something I read; "When the power of live overcomes the love of power then and ONLY THEN will the world know peace". Thanks for listening. I'll shut up now....

Funny, the version of that quote I read was
"When the last politician is strangled to death with the entrails of the last priest, only then can there be peace."

(kidding, it's not the same quote).

 

[Pistolero114]

Funny, the version of that quote I read was
"When the last politician is strangled to death with the entrails of the last priest, only then can there be peace."

(kidding, it's not the same quote).

Works for me.