Discussion Why don't more animals kill themselves?

[TydalWave]

Maybe higher 'intelligence' or self awareness is required to overcome instinct. Perhaps that is the case because there have been studies of dolphins that have willfully drowned themselves. Even one of the dolphins that played 'Flipper' apparently! Did you know that?!! I guess it's not something they would advertise.

Shout out to the dolphins for not being automatic breathers.
They can literally just stop breathing and die at any point. Wish it was that easy for humans.

 

[Wannagonow]

What an interesting topic! From what I've read and seen, I've always felt very sure that animals feel grief. It makes me wonder what other emotions they can experience. The dolphin story was really interesting. Poor flipper. Thanks for sharing something a little lighter than what we might usually see.

 

[Rob1984]

This question is actually multi-faceted and there is not a simple answer to it; there are lot of ways one can approach it. To keep my answer really short, I'd say a big part of why animals don't CTB is because they are not aware that they themselves will die. Think about it- the first step into contemplating CTB is to be aware of your own mortality. Sure, animals understand death to a certain degree, but they don't really realize they will face death themselves. Another thing to mention is that they live completely in the present moment, and are not concerned with their significance to the universe. Humans are super concerned with their own significance and whether they are living a fulfilled life, whereas animals just don't give a fuck. That concept of significance does not even cross their mind. Anyway, there's a lot more that could be said, but I don't want to write a novel here, and a lot of people have mentioned similar thoughts. Our ego/consciousness is definitely a double-edged sword.

Good point. Also, most animals have very poor internet access. Way out in the woods you're lucky if you even get one bar on your phone, and underwater it's even worse.

If animals can't access the internet, they'll never visit this site, and as everyone knows, SaSu is the world's only repository of information about suicide. In fact, if only living things could be kept from hearing about SaSu, then they would all be immortal.

It is also not a coincidence that the internet signal is weak in the woods/underwater. We obviously have to limit how much power is granted to other species, so we humans horde the world's internet. Sure, there is enough to go around for every animal, but just imagine what would happen if say sloths were given good internet service? Humans would be done for good.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Well, the thing is… people treat other people well with the intent that they will be rewarded somehow. Maybe other people will treat me well if I treat them well, the old adage "treat others the way you want to be treated", but in the end there are still selfish motives involved. Maybe people treat others well for the euphoria of being altruistic, endorphins are released when we experience pleasure, and when our actions are socially acceptable we feel secure that we are accepted into the herd. Everyone does something with the intent of "what's in it for me". Its human nature to take care of ourselves first, it's ok, but I think it's important to realize this as we navigate the world.

Why am I even writing this in the thread? I get some pleasure from online socialization because outside of this my life is very empty with no friends. I'm selfishly typing away for some sense of validation based on my understanding of the world, to find some sort of security which makes me feel better about how absurd and pointless life really is. I'm typing this for myself, if others agree with me then I get gratification from it because then I'm accepted, I belong somewhere, I feel a false sense of security and my mind doesn't know the difference.

We are always selfishly seeking to have our needs met, it doesn't matter how charitable someone is, it's impossible to escape.

Have you read the book: The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins? It discuses a lot of this if I remember.

I find the fact that there has been cases of dolphins supposedly committing suicide very interesting. Dolphins are some of the smartest animals and even have sex for pleasure so it isn't farfetched to say that they feel depressed in similar ways to humans. I wonder if intelligent great apes like Bonobos or Orangutans can also feel depressed like humans do and contemplate/attempt suicide.

I just found something interesting from a quick google search: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/61594639

"MONKEY'S SUICIDE. By Hanging. LONDON. July 14 . Sightseers at Upton Zoo. Chester, witnessed an apparently deliberate suicide. A monkey first gnawed six feet of rope hanging in a cage, tied the end to a bough of a tree, making a noose in the other. He then in serted his head, then with great de liberation, pulled the slipknot, climbed the tree and jumped to death, which was instantaneous. The keeper of the Zoo at the in quest, giving a verdict of suicide with no evidence of state of mind. He added, in his lifetime experience he had not known an animal to deliberately commit suicide. He was guarding the monkeys which might emulate their companion, thinking they had discovered a new game. The reason for the suicide is unknown, he may have had domestic difficulties, or may have been shocking the spectators, who were expecting amusement, and witnessed a tragedy. "

Definitely interesting if not bullshit (article's from 1932)

Wow- thanks for linking this. It wouldn't surprise me at all that zoo animals get depressed enough for this. It must be so stressful with all the noise, cramped conditions and lack of privacy.

Plus, monkeys as we know are very smart and perfectly capable of using tools. I wonder if it was a chimpanzee. Seems kind of amazing it knew different knots but then- why not? They probably try things and test them just the same as us. Poor thing.

Shout out to the dolphins for not being automatic breathers.
They can literally just stop breathing and die at any point. Wish it was that easy for humans.

First of all- I thought- how weird but then remembered they need to come to the surface to breathe. Bit like us if we were underwater. Know what you mean but wonder how 'easy' it actually would be for them. They are mammals- like us. I imagine it would be a very similar sensation to drowning as us- it likely feels just as unnatural for them to try and breathe underwater. Poor things- means they can't even sleep that deeply.

 

[UtopianElephant]

I'm definitely not an animal biologist or zoologist but if you look at certain animal behaviour, it does mimic human behaviour for sure.

A lot of animals will euthanize weak or deformed offspring. Whether or not it's because the care for them will slow down the herd or make them more vulnerable to attack or simply just to put it out of its misery (because it's the right thing to do or the parent/leader can't stand to see it suffer), we don't know why animals choose to do this.

Also, look at the number of animals that simply go off on their own to die. Maybe they're already terminal, maybe not, but the fact is, lots of animals will separate themselves from a herd or even humans to go off and die on their own. Is it suicide or just out of respect, I also don't know this.

Lots of marine wildlife will beach themselves as well (whales, dolphins, larger creatures in general), maybe it's also suicide, who knows?

I don't think suicide is genetically a human trait, I believe animals also have the ability to know when to call it quits too. I think we would vastly underestimate the intelligence of animals if we didn't think they felt sorrow, despair, sadness, grief and even suicidal ideations too.

When my cat was really sick, in his final weeks, I let him outside one night because he was pawing around the door that led to the backyard. After I let him out, about 5 minutes later, I suddenly thought about him just leaving and going off to die on his own, since there were a lot of areas to do it (small pockets of forests). I called him, but he never came back, and I couldn't sleep at all. I went looking for him, but I couldn't find him. Then, after 2 am, I heard his faint meow, and I jumped up out of bed and he came back. Honestly, I thought I had lost him for good and knowing him, he was the type of cat that would've spared me the event of watching him pass away too. He passed away a few weeks later one morning, gently, with me holding him. I don't know if he ever thought about wandering off and ending it for himself (like starving to death or getting attacked by another animal) but I'm very honoured he let me take care of him until the end.

Sorry about your cat, that was a very touching paragraph.

 

[Darkover]

Animals are too dumb too kill themselves there no easy way out for Animals accept to be put down by a vet
Why would a animal drown themselves like why would a human drown themselves when its so painful

 

[releasespieces]

Have you read the book: The Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins? It discuses a lot of this if I remember.

Wow- thanks for linking this. It wouldn't surprise me at all that zoo animals get depressed enough for this. It must be so stressful with all the noise, cramped conditions and lack of privacy.

Plus, monkeys as we know are very smart and perfectly capable of using tools. I wonder if it was a chimpanzee. Seems kind of amazing it knew different knots but then- why not? They probably try things and test them just the same as us. Poor thing.

First of all- I thought- how weird but then remembered they need to come to the surface to breathe. Bit like us if we were underwater. Know what you mean but wonder how 'easy' it actually would be for them. They are mammals- like us. I imagine it would be a very similar sensation to drowning as us- it likely feels just as unnatural for them to try and breathe underwater. Poor things- means they can't even sleep that deeply.

I have not, but now I'm a bit curious, thanks.

 

[Himalayan]

Survival instinct of animal is shit. A deer is almost relaxed while getting devoured.
Animals aren't stuck, if a problem emerges, they run. We whoever are stuck, we can't run. We can't run from shit.
Also, i don't think most animals are capable of thinking about it. However, i think some do commit. There's a lot of controversy around it, but the bias most ppl have is gigantic

 

[liana]

I think that animals (that aren't socialized by humans) don't have much resistance to what happens to them, which is what I have heard is what creates suffering, as opposed to simply pain.

The closest experience I have to this, possibly, is when using weed and it seems like it forces me to feel what I feel. It can feel physically torturous, but somehow I manage it because it's like I have strength and support to match the pain, coming from the lack of resistance.

Another effect weed has on me is to not identify so much with my self and body only, which is something I've also heard to be true for animals; that they don't feel separate from nature and their surroundings. To me on weed it can feel like I identify with my whole experience, so if I taste something I "am" the taste and experience of eating, and if I look at something, I identify with the experience of the sight of that thing.

I'm sure it's not the same, but it may be some similar elements.

Trauma also don't get stuck in their bodies, unless they are socialized by humans to suppress :( wild animals shake and scream and release the pain as it happens.

 

[gtfo]

I'm sure this has been discussed before but I can't seem to get the search bar to work. Sorry.

Plus- Sorry I'm posting so much at the moment! It's a major distraction technique from what I should be doing.

So- if I was a wild animal, I'm sure I would be useless at surviving in nature- especially seeing as mankind has covered most of it in concrete and plastic. I'm SURE I would want to kill myself...

Yet- there doesn't seem to be much mass evidence of animals doing so. (That whole Lemming thing is a Disney myth.) There are definitely exceptions- some animals will sacrifice their own lives to save their offspring or, their colony. Some animals in captivity have been known to take their own lives. Pets are known to grieve the loss of their owners and stop eating. (Although there is supposedly the argument that the animal simply won't accept food from another person.)

Still- why doesn't it happen more? They must have much harder lives than us. Maybe their survival instinct is stronger.

Maybe higher 'intelligence' or self awareness is required to overcome instinct. Perhaps that is the case because there have been studies of dolphins that have willfully drowned themselves. Even one of the dolphins that played 'Flipper' apparently! Did you know that?!! I guess it's not something they would advertise.

There is one member here that posts that this forum is evolution at work (I can't remember their name- sorry.) Maybe this is what they meant though? If all species evolve to the point where they can see how deeply problematic life on this planet is (and let's face it- it may just keep getting worse.) Plus- we all overcome our instincts to reproduce, maybe we can all die out all together!

Maybe they do and we're not aware. Would we know if the antelope runs a little slower from the cheetah or if the mountain goat intentionally steps wrong on the ledge? Even domesticated animals. A house cat gets out and runs in front of a car, do we know if it was unaware of the danger or if it was intentional?