Why do we call them pro-lifers?

[motel rooms]

We should refer to our pro-life friends as anti-choice.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Agreed. I've been doing that for a while.

 

[FuneralCry]

I prefer the term, pro suffering, as by not respecting our choices and stopping suicide attempts they try to prolong our suffering, even know it is against our wishes.

 

[AlexKy]

We'll forgive them because they know not what they do.

 

[Chinaski]

I prefer the term "anti-peace"

We should refer to our pro-life friends as anti-choice.

This is correct tbf, to put ourselves in opposition to "pro life" kind of suggests we're "anti life", which is not the case.

Anti-abortion campaigners refer to themselves as "pro life" while their pro-choice opponents do not accept this term and instead refer to them correctly as "anti abortion".

For us to refer to them as "pro lifers" is to accept their own terminology, with all the moral high-ground and piety that comes with it.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

"Pro-life" is a very general label in this community. I believe the term was originally borrowed from anti-abortion movements of the same name, and this is because (presumably) some users within the Sanctioned Suicide community saw many similarities between the two. The problem with this comparison, is that it does not take into account the specific reasons for why some people are against abortion and suicide.

I am of the opinion that if an indivdual is against suicide because they are genuinely concerned for the welfare of a suicidal person then I will consider them "pro-life". If an individual is against suicide for a more self-interested and non-moral/ethical reason then I will think of them as "anti-choice". In other words: those who hold a pro-life stance are also anti-choice, but not every anti-choice individual is pro-life.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Great point

 

[Simba]

How about just call them "anti-life".. pro life wouldve at least try to make living easier but they are anti life meaning they are somewhat pro life but dont care bout our suffering hence anti life.. there is no real life if youre just going to suffer..

 

[rationaltake]

We should refer to our pro-life friends as anti-choice.

Good point!

 

[cambrai33]

I don't find labels helpful if I am honest.

I saw a thread earlier with people reluctant to post in case they were labelled pro life and then a discussion about ethics whilst some pour soul is in the pits of despair.

So yes make whatever label you want but be mindful they can also be used against people

 

[Pluto]

The most profound flaw in the term pro-life is that people who want to CTB due to chronic illness, etc. do not have a life.

 

[Zzzzz]

The term pro-life is certainly a dis-service in this context. Anti-choice is good. I also like the term pro-servitude, since their motive seems to be to compell others to servitude to life itself.

 

[little helpers]

yep. when people put two (or more) sides on similar terms, literally and figuratively, they exonerate themselves from involvement and the blame that comes with it. both harm and good dissolves into "opinions". linguistically, conceptually, and materially.

crimes against humanity is not an "opinion". misogyny, trans/homophobia, racism/ ableism/ classism… abuse is NOT an opinion.

although it wouldn't be long before this gets co-opted too, as with most Left/ Left-leaning discourses (IMO is it one), cuz guess what, once we're all going "they anti-choice / anti-peace", they'd label us as fucking "anti-life".

double bind. shit.

I'd say, pro-autonomy vs. ableists. no ableists can crack that one.

 

[busternaught]

I like anti-choice and pro-suffering. Honestly just anything that doesn't make us sound like we're "anti-life" in some ideological, antinatalist way. Also as a way to distance the debate from anything related to the abortion debate, which is a completely different matter despite any surface level philosophical similarities.

 

[LastLoveLetter]

Yes, I agree. We are pro-choice, not anti-life, so it doesn't make sense to call them "pro-lifers." I have used this label myself and it never sat comfortably with me, and I think that is a large part of the reason why. To refer to them as "pro-life" is to imply that we are somehow against people living, which is incorrect. It also results in being more readily labelled as "pro-death" or "pro-suicide."

Despite my desire to die, I am not anti-life, and I'm confident that's not what SS is supposed to be, either. The term "pro-life" seems to lead to confusion within our own community too, as many members have their own views regarding what "pro-life" or "pro-choice" truly means, which seems to be subjective and variable. That divisiveness is counterproductive to our cause, especially when dealing with anti-choice individuals and when attempting to support one another. The distinction of anti-choice could help to clear up a lot of these issues.

For example, I have seen some acts labelled "pro-life" here which I think are perfectly acceptable, such as assuring people that they will be respected and supported whether they proceed with their suicide attempt or not. Unless a member is imposing the perspective that an individual must or should live or invalidating a person's pain, how is that "pro-life" (or rather, anti-choice)? Should we only ever say "I hope you find peace", "safe travels" or "goodbye?" Considering how some members here have historically been criticised and shamed for not dying, I would want to reassure those I speak with that they will be supported if they change their minds or if their attempt is unsuccessful too. This is just one example.

My understanding is that being "pro-choice" means to support people's right to make an informed choice about whether they want to live or die. This is not the same as encouraging suicide or discouraging people from living, but rather respecting their autonomy and any informed decision they make either way.

 

[Dot]

Agree tht wld b bettr 2 adpt 'pro-chce'

Pro-lfe jst mns nt-ded bt dsmt tke in2 accnt wht tht mns 4 lot of ppl.

 

[little helpers]

Also as a way to distance the debate from anything related to the abortion debate, which is a completely different matter despite any surface level philosophical similarities.

despite them being quite literally the same. do living women mean more or is it the underdeveloped embryo there that has no understanding of its own existence and thus "death" (if it count as one, "morally")?

morally, other animals can be killed because a) that's what humans' evolved to eat and b) a lot of them are not cerebrally aware of their existence or death. am I right? who is that person who cried for the lil poor bug thing becuz they "wouldn't hurt a fly"? I'm vegetarian but, "morally" speaking, we should all starve ourselves to death becuz plants are living things too.

I don't know what y'all think but like, I suppose many of us here don't think the pro-choice / "pro-life" shit is debatable. the way my family speak about addicts, man, my own humanity becomes a fucking debate at the dinner table. what?!

it's debatable what is the most ethical. it's not a debate when people have clearly voiced the traumas they sustained from what are strictly unethical.

like you won't believe how much my mind is torn, figuratively, when I saw anti-vaxx people who's also suicidal here. that's not anti-vaxx, that's motherfucking anti-kids. "think about the children!"

solidarity. we need more solidarity. don't know if I sound like an armchair Leftist. but whatever. this shit doesn't get old.

 

[lostundead]

Aside from the fact that it's a stupid term, where are all these so called "Pro-Lifers"? The fixthe people got an average of 1 likes per post last time I checked. This term in the context of suicide is completely unknown to eveyone outside of the SS-bubble. In order to deal with all the different "anti-choice' arguments, I think it's best to rebut them seperately without slapping labels on those who voice them.

 

[busternaught]

despite them being quite literally the same. do living women mean more or is it the underdeveloped embryo there that has no understanding of its own existence and thus "death" (if it count as one, "morally")?

morally, other animals can be killed because a) that's what humans' evolved to eat and b) a lot of them are not cerebrally aware of their existence or death. am I right?

I don't know what y'all think but like, I suppose many of us here don't think the pro-choice / "pro-life" shit is debatable. the way my family speak about addicts, man, my own humanity becomes a fucking debate at the dinner table. what?!

it's debatable what is the most ethical. it's not a debate when people have clearly voiced the traumas they sustained from what are strictly unethical.

like you won't believe how much my mind is torn, figuratively, when I saw anti-vaxx people who's also suicidal here. that's not anti-vaxx, that's motherfucking anti-kids. "think about the children!"

solidarity. we need more solidarity. don't know if I sound like an armchair Leftist. but whatever. this shit doesn't get old.

I completely understand where you're coming from, trust me. However I do not want to debate abortion now, I don't think this is the thread for it and personally it isn't what I am on this forum for either.

I do want to say that I believe you can convince someone who's pro-life on abortion and CTB issues to be pro-choice on CTB, without changing their mind at all on abortion. And I do not think that a person like that would be illogical either. This is what I meant by it being completely seperate debates.

 

[little helpers]

I completely understand where you're coming from, trust me. However I do not want to debate abortion now, I don't think this is the thread for it and personally it isn't what I am on this forum for either.

I do want to say that I believe you can convince someone who's pro-life on abortion and CTB issues to be pro-choice on CTB, without changing their mind at all on abortion. And I do not think that a person like that would be illogical either. This is what I meant by it being completely seperate debates.

gotcha. and I totally agree.

 

[YourNeighbor]

My understanding is that being "pro-choice" means to support people's right to make an informed choice about whether they want to live or die. This is not the same as encouraging suicide or discouraging people from living, but rather respecting any informed decision they make either way.

This is a critical point. Yet some here appear to argue that suicide should be supported in any almost any situation, and that any suggestion to the contrary makes one a "pro-lifer," in the anti-choice sense of the word.

If choice is informed choice, the debate then becomes: when is a decision to commit suicide an informed decision? It would be inappropriate to ask members to justify their suicidality, but it's hard to shake the notion based on the limited info provided in comments or in the "why are you here" threads that a very substantial number, if not a significant majority, of members are not in that category.

 

[little helpers]

My understanding is that being "pro-choice" means to support people's right to make an informed choice about whether they want to live or die. This is not the same as encouraging suicide or discouraging people from living, but rather respecting their autonomy and any informed decision they make either way.

^ this. informed consent.

and to get there it's not too far-streched to start with what happens in psych facilities. I tried before I now can't. or maybe I still could. death is a protest.

 

[Insomniac]

We should refer to our pro-life friends as anti-choice.

because they try really hard to fuck with us..

 

[Starryeyes]

I call them twatwaffles

 

[motel rooms]

This is correct tbf, to put ourselves in opposition to "pro life" kind of suggests we're "anti life", which is not the case.

Anti-abortion campaigners refer to themselves as "pro life" while their pro-choice opponents do not accept this term and instead refer to them correctly as "anti abortion".

For us to refer to them as "pro lifers" is to accept their own terminology, with all the moral high-ground and piety that comes with it.

Exactly.

 

[Zotz101]

I think it's really important for our movement to distance from abortion. We aren't antinatalist, as someone else mentioned. I think conflating our movement with abortion, in large part, makes that implicit connection that we're "anti-life."

We're not "anti-life". We simply want people to live the life in the way they choose! In my eyes, the debate should be "pro-mandatory living" and "pro-consensual life."

Ideally, we'd live in a world where someone can sign up to die and if a year later, they still want to, then the procedure goes ahead.

 

[Julgran]

I think it's really important for our movement to distance from abortion. We aren't antinatalist, as someone else mentioned. I think conflating our movement with abortion, in large part, makes that implicit connection that we're "anti-life."

We're not "anti-life". We simply want people to live the life in the way they choose! In my eyes, the debate should be "pro-mandatory living" and "pro-consensual life."

Ideally, we'd live in a world where someone can sign up to die and if a year later, they still want to, then the procedure goes ahead.

Why wouldn't abortion be a personal choice for suicidal people, as it is for non-suicidal people - like we want suicide to be an option?

 

[Zotz101]

I think it's really important for our movement to distance from abortion. We aren't antinatalist, as someone else mentioned. I think conflating our movement with abortion, in large part, makes that implicit connection.

We're not "anti-life". We simply want people to live the life in the way they choose! In my eyes, the debate should be "pro-mandatory living" and "pro-consensual life."

Ideally, we'd live in a world where someone can sign up to die and if a year later, they still want to, then the procedure goes ahead.

Why wouldn't abortion be a personal choice for suicidal people, as it is for non-suicidal people - like we want suicide to be an option?

Why wouldn't abortion be a personal choice for suicidal people, as it is for non-suicidal people - like we want suicide to be an option?

Oh, I do think that abortion is a personal choice. I'm absolutely pro-choice. I just think that it would be better for the advancement of our movement to try and distance the two. I think I communicated myself poorly.

I think that some people (I don't agree with them) think that women are making choices for foetuses who don't consent to die. Obviously, I disagree, but it's a common and established argument. I think it would be hard for us as a movement if people think that anyone who wants to die due to non-terminal illness isn't consenting to dying, rather their non-terminal illness is the one consenting for them. That is what connecting abortion and our movement does, in my eyes.

 

[Zzzzz]

We're not "anti-life". We simply want people to live the life in the way they choose! In my eyes, the debate should be "pro-mandatory living" and "pro-consensual life."

You make a good point. Pro mandatory living and pro consensual life. I Like those phrases. Quite accurate and to the point. One side believes life is mandatory. The other that life should only continue if consented to by the individual.

 

[motel rooms]

I don't find labels helpful if I am honest.

I saw a thread earlier with people reluctant to post in case they were labelled pro life and then a discussion about ethics whilst some pour soul is in the pits of despair.

So yes make whatever label you want but be mindful they can also be used against people

There's just no satisfying you, is there? Now I'm a maker of unhelpful labels.
Believe it or not, I've said stuff like this on more than one occasion & the members who know me know it:

Unless a member is imposing the perspective that an individual must or should live or invalidating a person's pain, how is that "pro-life" (or rather, anti-choice)? Should we only ever say "I hope you find peace", "safe travels" or "goodbye?" Considering how some members here have historically been criticised and shamed for not dying, I would want to reassure those I speak with that they will be supported if they change their minds or if their attempt is unsuccessful too.

My understanding is that being "pro-choice" means to support people's right to make an informed choice about whether they want to live or die. This is not the same as encouraging suicide or discouraging people from living, but rather respecting their autonomy and any informed decision they make either way.

I don't like labels either, but it's often impossible to communicate without using them. If I want to have sex or start a relationship with another human, I have to call myself gay even though I'm actually so much more than my sexual orientation, I have to call myself a top, I have to say that I want to meet bottoms & versatile gay or bisexual men, that I'm not into BDSM &, most controversially, that I'm only attracted to other "traditionally masculine" men. I know that using the word "masculine" is frowned upon & that many people think it doesn't mean anything anymore, but I'm forced to use some sort of label because I don't feel like rejecting all the guys I have nothing against, but am simply not attracted to.