Discussion why are people against young people choosing to die?

[willitpass]

for a pro choice website it bothers me that people are constantly saying that young people should wait because it could get better. yeah i get it if someone has only been depressed for a year and they're 18 and want to die they should give it time, but the same goes for someone at any age.

but i have been depressed for 10 years. my first trauma was at age 3, i became depressed at age 8, started self harming at 11, had my first suicide attempt at 13. i have been in therapy since i was 5. i have been in regular therapy, trauma therapy, inpatient hospital stays, i've been on every antidepressant in the book and i've even tried ECT. why is it that just because i'm 18 i shouldn't kill myself just because time could fix it? don't you think if time could fix me it would have already?

 

[IamSamIam]

don't you think if time could fix me it would have already?

I agree, but then again, I am completely suicidal right now. I don't see the point in discouraging others from doing it either. If a person wants to die, they should be able to do so. I told my therapist that, and she actually agreed, but then has also sent me to the hospital, so??

 

[Aap]

This is a pro choice website, not a pro death site. Sure, some people under the age of 18 can make a rational choice. However, the adolescent brain is not fully developed, and adolescent life experience is limited. Pain is largely relative, true, but there is a difference between being unpopular in school and being homeless and unpopular.

I also suspect this site would have significantly more scrutiny if it was opened to non-adults

 

[Life_and_Death]

for a pro choice website it bothers me that people are constantly saying that young people should wait because it could get better. yeah i get it if someone has only been depressed for a year and they're 18 and want to die they should give it time, but the same goes for someone at any age.

but i have been depressed for 10 years. my first trauma was at age 3, i became depressed at age 8, started self harming at 11, had my first suicide attempt at 13. i have been in therapy since i was 5. i have been in regular therapy, trauma therapy, inpatient hospital stays, i've been on every antidepressant in the book and i've even tried ECT. why is it that just because i'm 18 i shouldn't kill myself just because time could fix it? don't you think if time could fix me it would have already?

for people that have been abused and what not it makes sense. but what about a 17yr whos gf just broke up with him? yeah it hurts but not really the end of the world........depending. point is if you only have 1 problem you really should wait to see if it gets better because most of the time it will. however no one can really know everyones story so they just assume its the whole "break up" thing for everyone and they have so much life left to live and they cant possibly know what life even is yet to make such a desision (please i raised a child that wasnt mine at 12 while being abused by my mother and what happened later in life with my stepfather is something i dont talk about so yeah...people can experience life before theyre adults. sorry i kinda triggered myself and went on a bit of a rant. im not having a good night)

 

[TheGoodGuy]

I personally don´t care what age a person chose to ctb they never asked to be born so they have every right to die when they want and I don´t care if they are young teenagers or whatever age they are, if I had ctb when I had my first suicidal thought at the end of age 13 I would´ve been spared over a decade of pain and suffering and it seems most suicidal people become suicidal when they enter puberty because of the change in hormones that´s what happened with me and most other members in here it´s also logical and rational to ctb at a young age assuming you will suffer for years or decades and even without that I don´t see adulthood as living, you have to work so hard just to have the basic necessities like roof over your head, food, clothes, paying bills etc. and to obtain that you have to spent most of your "life" on working a job you don´t give a shit about JUST to exist.

Rationally it makes sense to ctb at an early age like shown in this graph in the beginning of the video

 

[willitpass]

for people that have been abused and what not it makes sense. but what about a 17yr whos gf just broke up with him? yeah it hurts but not really the end of the world........depending. point is if you only have 1 problem you really should wait to see if it gets better because most of the time it will. however no one can really know everyones story so they just assume its the whole "break up" thing for everyone and they have so much life left to live and they cant possibly know what life even is yet to make such a desision (please i raised a child that wasnt mine at 12 while being abused by my mother and what happened later in life with my stepfather is something i dont talk about so yeah...people can experience life before theyre adults. sorry i kinda triggered myself and went on a bit of a rant. im not having a good night)

i don't agree with someone killing themselves over one event, that is something someone can come back from and i do not agree with it. however in my case i have been assaulted and abused my entire life and the trauma is engrained in my brain. i am 18 almost 19 but i do not see myself getting better considering all of the treatment i have been through that has not helped. so it is frustrating to be told i need to give it time

 

[Life_and_Death]

i don't agree with someone killing themselves over one event, that is something someone can come back from and i do not agree with it. however in my case i have been assaulted and abused my entire life and the trauma is engrained in my brain. i am 18 almost 19 but i do not see myself getting better considering all of the treatment i have been through that has not helped. so it is frustrating to be told i need to give it time

exactly my point. i think most people dont see that its not always teen drama

 

[willitpass]

This is a pro choice website, not a pro death site. Sure, some people under the age of 18 can make a rational choice. However, the adolescent brain is not fully developed, and adolescent life experience is limited. Pain is largely relative, true, but there is a difference between being unpopular in school and being homeless and unpopular.

I also suspect this site would have significantly more scrutiny if it was opened to non-adults

i never said it should be opened to minors, i meant 18-30 year olds who are told they are too young to kill themselves. and people can have a lot worse trauma than simply being unpopular at school when they're young. i was abused by my mother my entire childhood and still am to this day and have a lot of other traumas but still get told to give it time

 

[Deleted member 22624]

I think it's human instinct to be more protective of younger people in our social group, I bet it applies to most social species

 

[Aap]

No one should try to invalidate your experiences. It may be frustrating, but I suspect most of those encouraging you to give it more time are speaking from a place of caring, a place of life experience, or both. At the end of the day, only you can decide for you. You won't find people here encouraging you to jump.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think it's evolutionary. I think we're hard-wired to save young people. Someone will risk their lives to save a child in traffic, not even think about it, but if an adult is in traffic, they might yell, or think about whether or not to risk their own life. The hope for a species to keep going is not in its older members but in the survival of younger members. If they can't yet procreate, or are in their earliest or most fertile years, then "it's a damn shame, they still had hope." No, their potential to reproduce and make more of our species still had hope. I think social platitudes and romanticization of youth gets piled on top of the instinct, similar to how mothers are elevated and romanticized: it's a thankless, exhausting job, and a lot of mothers treat their kids like shit, but don't dare say anything against a mother, because the society of this social species couldn't function without mothers.

That's my opinion. Climbing down off my soapbox now. I'm sure there's another thread I can drag it to.

 

[TheGoodGuy]

However, the adolescent brain is not fully developed

Damn I hate when people always brings this up when talking about age just because the brain isn´t fully developed in teenagers i.e. The frontal lobe the part of the brain that is responsible for functions such as planning for the future, judgment, decision-making skills, attention span, and inhibition this doesn´t mean just because teenagers mainly make their decisions using the amygdala which is responsible for emotions which doesn´t mean they can´t think rationally just because they are more likely to act on emotions hell I wish I did when I was a teenager with my racing teenage hormones to motivate me to ctb and feel extreme sadness both were great drives/motivators to ctb now I among other things suffer from apathy and anhedonia so I can´t feel anything.

 

[Aap]

It is not a controversial statement anymore than hormone levels are different in teenagers and pre-pubescent individuals. It doesn't mean teens can't make a rational decision, but it does mean they are more prone to not making them at times.

 

[Donewiyhitall]

I think it's human instinct to be more protective of younger people in our social group, I bet it applies to most social species

I am guilty of wanting younger people to hang in there.

 

[AmDead]

Pain is largely relative, true, but there is a difference between being unpopular in school and being homeless and unpopular.

No one said teens only think of suicide over being unpopular in school. Teens are equally, if not more susceptible to abuse, assault, homelessness, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, rape, financial debt, and any other problem an adult could have.

I am guilty of wanting younger people to hang in there.

If you are on this forum, I'm guessing you also want to die. Adult life only gets harder, in the end we all die. I think it's actually better to end it early, save us from all the suffering

 

[Aap]

Please read my post. I clearly state some teens can make a rational decision regarding ctb. Everything I posted stands.

 

[stupid little girl]

I think there are a couple of explanations for this. First, older people will almost always try to encourage the younger ones to hang in there. I believe it comes from their natural human instincts. Now, another reason could be that they believe we (I'm 21) have no real reason to be suicidal. That our reasons aren't as serious so we shouldn't be contemplating suicide. Finally, they believe that because of our young age that we still have time to get better. We, "have our whole lives ahead of us!" Because it's not like people in their 30s and 40s don't have at least 40-30 years left to change their lives anyway it's frustrating, but I just ignore it. They don't know my reasons and they don't know me.

 

[muffin222]

Good question. I think the crux of it is that people believe that when young people want to die, the desire is coming from a place of immaturity, lack of life experience, or impulsivity. I'm not going to deny that there are young people who impulsively decide on ctb due to transient life situations or temporary stressors like break ups, etc. On the other side of the coin, there are young people who have been victims of child abuse, trauma, neglect, and serious adversity that have re-wired their brain and led to mental illness.

It seems like both of these groups of young people tend to get lumped together based on age alone, with each group being fed the same platitudes about the glory of youth and how "it gets better!". Doing so is faster, easier, and less time-intensive than carefully considering the various factors at play in each young person's individual situation. It's lazy thinking, in short. Human beings are famous for loving to put complex issues into neat little boxes instead of objectively considering the finer nuances and intricacies at hand

 

[tidalwxves]

for a pro choice website it bothers me that people are constantly saying that young people should wait because it could get better. yeah i get it if someone has only been depressed for a year and they're 18 and want to die they should give it time, but the same goes for someone at any age.

but i have been depressed for 10 years. my first trauma was at age 3, i became depressed at age 8, started self harming at 11, had my first suicide attempt at 13. i have been in therapy since i was 5. i have been in regular therapy, trauma therapy, inpatient hospital stays, i've been on every antidepressant in the book and i've even tried ECT. why is it that just because i'm 18 i shouldn't kill myself just because time could fix it? don't you think if time could fix me it would have already?

This is a complex issue, but I think my main argument has to do with brain development. If you haven't had the opportunity experience what your adult brain and the independence of adult life which is very different from childhood you don't really know. Because death is so permanent it something to try and consider. I don't think that in anyway diminishes your pain, I just think that adulthood does provide a new opportunity and I would hope someone would try it out before CTB

 

[watsonsmith]

The brain doesn't fully develop until 25 apparently... looking at my own experience my first suicidal thoughts were pretty much as far out into my childhood as I can remember. Definitely by the time I was 9.

I went through many moments in my life since then (I am now 30) that I was thinking of ending it. But at least until I was 25 (just a coincidence) I know with hindsight that I could've taken a different path in my life and been happy.

So, my rationale for telling people to wait is twofold. The first is biological – perspective and emotion regulation change with age (in my case for the worse, but it's a valid argument nonetheless in my opinion). The second is external – there still might be opportunities to change your life around. I personally know of people who had been abused in childhood or suffered various diseases and disorders, whose life has been hell all throughout high school because of bullying and related issues, only to completely turn their lives around once they escaped these bubbles of torment, moved away or just started their own lives with new peers and friends. Or started families.

There is a big BUT – whilst I would definitely discourage anyone, I do not mean to take away the terrible pain that one can feel regardless of age. Some of the worst moments of my life are still in my childhood. I empathise, I understand, but there are reasons to wait.

 

[Superdeterminist]

for a pro choice website it bothers me that people are constantly saying that young people should wait because it could get better.

I hate this argument. Yes sure it could get better, nobody can predict the future perfectly after all. But what if it takes years, or decades to get better? I don't consider waiting that long steeped in misery is worth it. Also, even if it gets better, that doesn't magically rectify all the wasted time spent suffering. It could get worse again, and time spent suffering (which is INVOLUNTARY) is time wasted and not time worth spent living, in my opinion.

 

[TooConscious]

I also find it hypocritical since immortality is now available when you have the right means to pay the cost/sacrifices.
People laugh but in 5-10 years you'll see everything I say is now the new world and you might remember oh that guy I called a freak on SS really did know.
I wish I'd have killed myself vat 18 a year after buying rope. But I wonder if my brain chemistry had altered positively, if I'd met good people and not spent years surrounded by shit would I be different... Ifid have met some people that have helped me in life when I was that age my life mightve been good also I believe my depressed, anxious, stressed. Has mostly led or aggravated my chronic health issues.

 

[Superdeterminist]

i don't agree with someone killing themselves over one event, that is something someone can come back from and i do not agree with it. however in my case i have been assaulted and abused my entire life and the trauma is engrained in my brain. i am 18 almost 19 but i do not see myself getting better considering all of the treatment i have been through that has not helped. so it is frustrating to be told i need to give it time

It's hard to say which events are recoverable from, and which aren't. Maybe there's something you could personally come back from, but someone else couldn't. Because, we're all different and have different brains that cope better or worse under different stressors. I think people need to be careful about what they judge as minor vs major issues, and recognise that other minds will have different ideas about what's a big deal and what isn't.

I also find it hypocritical since immortality is now available when you have the right means to pay the cost/sacrifices.
People laugh but in 5-10 years you'll see everything I say is now the new world and you might remember oh that guy I called a freak on SS really did know.
I wish I'd have killed myself vat 18 a year after buying rope. But I wonder if my brain chemistry had altered positively, if I'd met good people and not spent years surrounded by shit would I be different... Ifid have met some people that have helped me in life when I was that age my life mightve been good also I believe my depressed, anxious, stressed. Has mostly led or aggravated my chronic health issues.

Are you talking about anti-ageing tech? I agree that it's on the horizon although I think it will be at least a few more decades until it becomes truly feasible.

 

[tidalwxves]

I personally don´t care what age a person chose to ctb they never asked to be born so they have every right to die when they want and I don´t care if they are young teenagers or whatever age they are, if I had ctb when I had my first suicidal thought at the end of age 13 I would´ve been spared over a decade of pain and suffering and it seems most suicidal people become suicidal when they enter puberty because of the change in hormones that´s what happened with me and most other members in here it´s also logical and rational to ctb at a young age assuming you will suffer for years or decades and even without that I don´t see adulthood as living, you have to work so hard just to have the basic necessities like roof over your head, food, clothes, paying bills etc. and to obtain that you have to spent most of your "life" on working a job you don´t give a shit about JUST to exist.

Rationally it makes sense to ctb at an early age like shown in this graph in the beginning of the video

It doesn't seem like you actually watched this video, it doesn't justify your point. Of course, a 13 year old in so much pain they kill themselves is someone I empathize with, but the average 13 year old has lots of resources one of which being time to improve their lives. Just because you wish you had done that doesn't mean we should encourage or offer suicide resources to middle schoolers.

 

[Sprite_Geist]

It could be an issue of power.

Some people view those that are younger than themselves as inexperinced in life; which in turn means that their input on a situation, or their thoughts and ideas, are not as valued as a so-called "wiser" older person. How many times, as a young adult, have you had your voice silenced by an older adult? It does not matter how rational or factual your argument is, because if you are a threat to them or their values then you are usually meat with the same responses: "Don't you talk back to me you little brat!", or "You're just some stupid young punk. What do you know?". It is using ones own status as a respected elder to silence others. It could be considered a form of the Appeal To Authority logical fallacy. The only time a younger persons view is wanted is if it aligns with the powers that be. This of course can work the other way as well.

It may be the same reason why certain individuals are against young people choosing to die: Control. If you are not alive then who else is there to talk down to? Who else is there to serve as fodder in a gruesome conflict?

This is not supposed to be a generalization on age groups either way, it is just an anecdotal argument based on personal experience.

 

[TheGoodGuy]

It doesn't seem like you actually watched this video, it doesn't justify your point. Of course, a 13 year old in so much pain they kill themselves is someone I empathize with, but the average 13 year old has lots of resources one of which being time to improve their lives. Just because you wish you had done that doesn't mean we should encourage or offer suicide resources to middle schoolers.

I have watched the whole 50+ minutes of this video but the graph is by far the most interesting thing and a very good example. And I have been a member here for over 2 years and talked with a lot of people whom have been suicidal since their early teenage years so according to the graph in the video it would make sense for a person to have ctb at that age since it would never get better.

And of course we shouldn´t encourage 13 year old´s to ctb mainly because encouraging suicide is against the forum rules and the rules also state you have to be 18 to be a member here which is imo just a rule made to protect the forum because if people openly gave suicide advice to young teenagers this site would be shut down quickly.

You also say a 13 year old person have a lot of time to improve themselves which I agree is true, but personally I find it unfair why we have to spend so much time improving just to feel content not necessarily happy but just content enough to not wanting to ctb. I would also like to correct myself (somewhat)I said had I ctb at the end of age 13 I would´ve spared myself a lot of pain and suffering which is in fact true but preferably if I could choose I would have done it at age 18 since my social life ended at age 17 and no more fun or exciting experiences henceforth and I had many great experiences as a teenager despite depression. So had I ctb at 13 I would´ve spared myself the pain and suffering for over a decade sure but also missed out on so many fun and exciting experiences in my teenage years.

 

[262653]

I get the impression that the title question is understood and answered in at least two different ways.
First one is the title question. It's about why people are against young people choosing to CTB. Why are people so concerned?
Second one is about why the choice of young people (in specific) to CTB might not be a good choice for them, generally or in some specific cases. What's in it for young people?
One is focused on the interests of the people who speak against the choice of young people to CTB. Second is focused on the interests of young people.

I find the "it gets better" argument very annoying. First of all, it's vague. What gets better? Are we talking about pleasure and contentment? Does pain and suffering count into the equation? And better for whom? Better for how long? I could understand it as "you will feel more pleasure and contentment in the future for an uncertain period of time" which intuitively sounds plausible, but hardly reassuring if the decision to CTB is concerned. It could be understood as "overall in your life, pleasure and contentment will be more prevalent than pain and suffering". Sounds like lying to me. One has to be a diviner to foresee the overall quality of life for a young person, especially foresee an overall good life for a person who considers CTB. That, or maybe I'm missing something. I'm not well versed into statistical analysis, and I'm not skilled enough to pick out relevant information for such analysis.

"You will experience more overall good feelings" makes sense if the goal is maximizing happiness and good feelings in general, but the continuation of life also extends the room for more pain and suffering. I'm assuming that people want to CTB mainly to avoid pain and suffering that will or might occur if they wouldn't CTB (otherwise I don't see the point in choosing to die), which means that such people are concerned about bad feelings, not just with good ones.

 

[Symbiote]

Everyone that commented is right to some degree, but just wanted to add to the above quote: "The brain isn't fully developed or matured at that age yet...". What if our brains were never started the process of developing to begin with. What if we were missing a key chemical that makes us be normal? Some kids grow up acting already grown because of certain life experiences. Some kids grow up knowing what sex is as early as 5, know that their parents are messed up and should get a divorce, shit that no normal kid should have to think about because those are adult decisions.

Kids are sometimes never given the proper care to start the process of developing their brains fully, sadly a bunch of growing up like that, being half-functioning, and messed up in some way.

 

[muffin222]

Kids are sometimes never given the proper care to start the process of developing their brains fully, sadly a bunch of growing up like that, being half-functioning, and messed up in some way.

I agree with this. This is the case for some people. Yes, trauma and abuse can be recovered from to a large degree in a lot of cases. But childhood development and brain development can be "short-circuited" by developmental trauma and failed attachment with early caregivers at a young age. Human beings are wired for secure attachment with caregivers, and when this need isn't met and parents are neglectful, abusive, or inconsistent it can alter the child's development in very negative ways. Not only that, but child abuse/neglect and the toxic stress it produces can lead to literal changes in brain structure that make a person more vulnerable to various mental and even physical illnesses. This fact is not widely known by many people, unfortunately.

I hate this argument of "the brain doesn't develop fully until age 25" for this reason. For some unfortunate people, the brain doesn't develop the way it should at all because the process gets disrupted by abuse, neglect, or trauma in childhood. Profound transformation is possible in a lot of cases, but even then some damage is permanent because certain developmental milestones and neural connections that should have been met and formed in childhood, weren't. Am I saying people should ctb because of this? No. It should always be a very carefully considered decision, I believe.

But, whether we like it or not, child abuse/neglect and trauma inflict far greater damage than just emotional pain or depression. Some people are impacted more severely than others. For these people, it simply may not get better, unfortunately because the brain structure has been altered to such a degree that a person doesn't function like they should have or would have had their childhood development not been disturbed by abuse, neglect, or trauma. For these people, the suffering may continue to be unbearable for the rest of their lives if professional help is not sought to try to mitigate some of the pain. Even with help, though, a subset of cases are so severe that even professional help won't be enough to undo the damage and lessen the suffering

 

[Wayfaerer]

I agree, but then again, I am completely suicidal right now. I don't see the point in discouraging others from doing it either. If a person wants to die, they should be able to do so. I told my therapist that, and she actually agreed, but then has also sent me to the hospital, so??

That was to save her own ass.