Method Whipped cream, bag and mask

[Eudaimonic]

Yes, it's basic human biology and can be most easily observed in drowning people who, while well past the "consious/unconsious" point, still try to swim and even attack rescuers, all this while holding their breath.

Instinctive drowning response - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Same with placing your hand over unconscious person face. They will fight it. Of course, if hypoxia sets deeply enough, there'll no oxygen to power the muscles so any fighting response will cease at this point.

Does this mean that using N2O to asphyxiate oneself in a bathtub (face down) would be unwise?

Edit: I don't think this response is actually an unconscious one, as the entire point is to prevent drowning when one is close to it and submersion has not yet occurred.

 

[Jadeith]

Does this mean that using N2O to asphyxiate oneself in a bathtub (face down) would be unwise?

Please elaborate. How exactly you want to proceed?

 

[Eudaimonic]

Please elaborate. How exactly you want to proceed?

My step by step plan for N20

This is my complete step by step plan that im using, feel free to critique anything. Ill be using n20 and drowning as a mixed method. Fill 5-6 thick balloons with 2 N2O chargers each (40g total, 20-30 liters), tie off. Sit in tub, full to brim—nose clipped, lean over water (4-6 inches above)...

sanctioned-suicide.net

 

[Jadeith]

My step by step plan for N20

This is my complete step by step plan that im using, feel free to critique anything. Ill be using n20 and drowning as a mixed method. Fill 5-6 thick balloons with 2 N2O chargers each (40g total, 20-30 liters), tie off. Sit in tub, full to brim—nose clipped, lean over water (4-6 inches above)...

sanctioned-suicide.net

Seems overly complicated and failure prone to me because it all depends how well will you be sedated before actual drowning begins. As discussed above, CO2 buildup may have different responses in different people. Same goes for laughing gas. Yes, you might fall to stupor deep enough to prevent stress response or at least make it ineffective enough to stay under water. Yes, continuous N2O breathing will eventually lead to oxygen deprivation as any other asphyxiant would do. Will it be enough to keep you under water long enough to die? Simply put - i don't know. Too many variables.
Should you use N2O as exit bag filler - well, that would be far more convincing, even without constant N2O ventilation because you'd be breathing more or less normally, without water getting in all the places it shouldn't be and chances are that depending on bag size, CO2 buildup from your lungs won't be large and fast enough before N2O does it's job both in sedating and suffocating you.
Then again - "chances are". And since i'm chronic overthinker and prone to panicking, i'm not going to take any chances or as little chances as possible when it comes to my planned dying.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Seems overly complicated and failure prone to me because it all depends how well will you be sedated before actual drowning begins. As discussed above, CO2 buildup may have different responses in different people. Same goes for laughing gas. Yes, you might fall to stupor deep enough to prevent stress response or at least make it ineffective enough to stay under water. Yes, continuous N2O breathing will eventually lead to oxygen deprivation as any other asphyxiant would do. Will it be enough to keep you under water long enough to die? Simply put - i don't know. Too many variables.
Should you use N2O as exit bag filler - well, that would be far more convincing, even without constant N2O ventilation because you'd be breathing more or less normally, without water getting in all the places it shouldn't be and chances are that depending on bag size, CO2 buildup from your lungs won't be large and fast enough before N2O does it's job both in sedating and suffocating you.
Then again - "chances are". And since i'm chronic overthinker and prone to panicking, i'm not going to take any chances or as little chances as possible when it comes to my planned dying.

I see. I guess I'm fucked then since that was my only method. I can't use an exit bag because I live with my family.

 

[Jadeith]

I see. I guess I'm fucked then since that was my only method. I can't use an exit bag because I live with my family.

Not fucked. Just need to rearrange your method of choice if you need to go that badly. History teaches that human resourcefulness when it comes to killing is nearly limitless.
Besides - how come they wouldn't notice you taking prolonged bath with bunch on N2O cartridges/balloons but definitely would notice you sleeping with basically same setup but over your head?
If they are that alert, there's strong possibility that they would drag you out of the tube the moment your movement slows down or snatch your N2O source even before you take your pants off.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Not fucked. Just need to rearrange your method of choice if you need to go that badly. History teaches that human resourcefulness when it comes to killing is nearly limitless.
Besides - how come they wouldn't notice you taking prolonged bath with bunch on N2O cartridges/balloons but definitely would notice you sleeping with basically same setup but over your head?
If they are that alert, there's strong possibility that they would drag you out of the tube the moment your movement slows down or snatch your N2O source even before you take your pants off.

I was going to rent a place with a suitable bathtub. I have nowhere to store the materials and no way to transport it discreetly.

Anyway, I am not that suicidal atm, so I'm not panicked, but it is unfortunate that I have no way out.

 

[Jadeith]

Well, unless i understand something wrong (which is quite possible since english is not my prime language) - if you were going to rent a place anyway, even if for a few hours, then preparing one of more reliable methods (ventilated or unventilated exit bag) should be as viable as setting up a bath tub.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Well, unless i understand something wrong (which is quite possible since english is not my prime language) - if you were going to rent a place anyway, even if for a few hours, then preparing one of more reliable methods (ventilated or unventilated exit bag) should be as viable as setting up a bath tub.

Except that I have nowhere to store it prior to this or any way to transport it discreetly

I'm not sure what you meant by "stress response" in your initial response. Are you suggesting that co2 buildup (the risk of which should be nullified if one hyperventilates beforehand to induce hypocapnia), hypoxia, or having one's lungs fill with water, could somehow cause one to instinctively try to exit the water while unconscious and severely hypoxic? The idea here is to induce hypoxic LOC while/as one is submerged in the water. With weights around the neck, I simply can't see how you could get out of the water unless there was an extremely robust compensatory response that raised PaO2 to levels sufficient to be lucid again and not minimally conscious. However, I think the chance of that happening in such a situation is incredibly slim. SWB is not a perfect analogue (primarily because one will have more residual O2), but by looking at the way LOC functions in it we can see that such a response does not occur and extrapolate that to this situation.

 

[Jadeith]

Basically, drowning person instinctively grabs onto anything they can, push themselves against the bottom etc, with force great enough to drown other person, even disproportionally larger (kid-parent accidents).
So, if i understood correctly you are going to numb yourself with N2O enough to go to sleep, while being face down in bathtub and with some weights around your neck to nullify any buoyancy your head might have. In theory this should work. But there's a catch. If you fall asleep but not deep enough to prevent drowning response to kick in, your body will literally launch itself out of the bathtub and no, consciousness is not required for that. You can read about in any life guard training manual. Even wiki has a page about it.
To avoid that, only advice i might have - stay connected to N2O as long as technically possible before submerging occurs in hopes that sedating effect of N2O will become strong enough to overcome your instincts. Maybe entering empty tub, starting filling it up and then immediately connecting yourself to N2O will give you enough time before water reaches your airways.
To be completely honest with you - too many variables to my liking but i understand that one must do what one must do with tools available. Anyways, if you are going to try it - i wish you painless journey.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Basically, drowning person instinctively grabs onto anything they can, push themselves against the bottom etc, with force great enough to drown other person, even disproportionally larger (kid-parent accidents).

Yes, but I don't think that this happens while they are conscious because by the time they are unconscious why will reached levels of hypoxia sufficient for blackout and the heart and brain will be prioritized, leaving no room for such a response. also, the whole point of that fight or flight response is to maximize oxygen reserves by gasping for air even if unconsciousness is imminent.

So, if i understood correctly you are going to numb yourself with N2O enough to go to sleep, while being face down in bathtub and with some weights around your neck to nullify any buoyancy your head might have.

Not to go to sleep but to induce severe hypoxia that causes loss of consciousness.
Otherwise, yes, and also to make it more difficult to get out of the water if I somehow did regain consciousness.

In theory this should work. But there's a catch. If you fall asleep but not deep enough to prevent drowning response to kick in, your body will literally launch itself out of the bathtub and no, consciousness is not required for that. You can read about in any life guard training manual. Even wiki has a page about it.
To avoid that, only advice i might have - stay connected to N2O as long as technically possible before submerging occurs in hopes that sedating effect of N2O will become strong enough to overcome your instincts. Maybe entering empty tub, starting filling it up and then immediately connecting yourself to N2O will give you enough time before water reaches your airways.

Well I would be using balloons and then holding my breath, and doing this several times so as to maximize hypoxia, so i wouldn't be connected to it

 

[Jadeith]

Yes, but I don't think that this happens while they are conscious because by the time they are unconscious why will reached levels of hypoxia sufficient for blackout and the heart and brain will be prioritized, leaving no room for such a response. also, the whole point of that fight or flight response is to maximize oxygen reserves by gasping for air even if unconsciousness is imminent.

Well, not exactly. Muscles store energy far longer than brain AND can go oxygen-less for a while (hence muscle sores after gym). And whole point of that fight or flight response is to keep head above water.

Not to go to sleep but to induce severe hypoxia that causes loss of consciousness.

That will be for any other inert gas. With N2O and it's sedative effects - those would (hopefully) set in way faster than hypoxia effects. At leas as far as i understand N2O effects on human body.

Well I would be using balloons and then holding my breath, and doing this several times so as to maximize hypoxia, so i wouldn't be connected to it

Just hope you won't get sedated or sleepy before hypoxia occurs because your body will do whatever it fuckin' pleases in order to stay alive and brain damage from half baked hypoxia is no fun.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Well, not exactly. Muscles store energy far longer than brain AND can go oxygen-less for a while (hence muscle sores after gym). And whole point of that fight or flight response is to keep head above water.

Regardless, the instinctive drowning response does not happen whilst the person is conscious.
"A drowning victim who is struggling: [...] Eventually will lose consciousness and stop moving"
Source: https://www.redcross.org/content/da...Class/Lifeguarding_PM_sample_chapter-2012.pdf

That will be for any other inert gas. With N2O and it's sedative effects - those would (hopefully) set in way faster than hypoxia effects. At leas as far as i understand N2O effects on human body. Just hope you won't get sedated or sleepy before hypoxia occurs because your body will do whatever it fuckin' pleases in order to stay alive and brain damage from half baked hypoxia is no fun.

"Thus N2O is a weak anesthetic inhalational agent but has good analgesic effects."
"Nitrous oxide is the least potent inhalational anesthetic. Compared to other anesthetic agents, nitrous oxide causes minimal effects on respiration and hemodynamics. It cannot be a sole anesthetic agent and is often combined with a more potent and volatile anesthetic."
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK532922/
So, I do not think that this is a concern.

 

[Jadeith]

Regardless, the instinctive drowning response does not happen whilst the person is conscious.

Yes. I'm worried about what will happen when you lose it. Either due to N2O effect as a sedative or rising hypercapnia/hypoxia.

Compared to other anesthetic agents, nitrous oxide causes minimal effects on respiration and hemodynamics

But still has it and contrary to other anesthetic mixtures, yours won't contain oxygen.

So, I do not think that this is a concern.

For your sake i sincerely hope you are right and i'm wrong.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Yes. I'm worried about what will happen when you lose it. Either due to N2O effect as a sedative or rising hypercapnia/hypoxia.

I see the source of the confusion. I meant to write "the instinctive drowning response does not happen whilst the person is unconscious." That is, it happens whilst they are conscious. The link from Red Cross that I provided supports this point.

But still has it and contrary to other anesthetic mixtures, yours won't contain oxygen.

Yes, but the purity is not the reason why it is too weak to be used as an anesthetic.

Edit: actually, I am not certain about this point. I will need to research it further, so thank you for bringing it to my attention

 

[Jadeith]

I see the source of the confusion. I meant to write "the instinctive drowning response does not happen whilst the person is unconscious." That is, it happens whilst they are conscious. The link from Red Cross that I provided supports this point.

good. With that one out of the way... make sure your neck weights are decent enough

Hypercapnia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Hypercapnia normally triggers a reflex which increases breathing and access to oxygen (O2), such as arousal and turning the head during sleep. A failure of this reflex can be fatal, for example as a contributory factor in sudden infant death syndrome.[21]"

Yes, but the purity is not the reason why it is too weak to be used as an anesthetic.

I wasn't referring to the purity of your source. I was stating that typical anesthetic mixture contains also oxygen (and other stuff as you mentioned). Your - will not so there are other mechanisms to consider. That's all.

 

[Eudaimonic]

Hypercapnia - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"Hypercapnia normally triggers a reflex which increases breathing and access to oxygen (O2), such as arousal and turning the head during sleep. A failure of this reflex can be fatal, for example as a contributory factor in sudden infant death syndrome.[21]"

How is this relevant?

I wasn't referring to the purity of your source. I was stating that typical anesthetic mixture contains also oxygen (and other stuff as you mentioned). Your - will not so there are other mechanisms to consider. That's all.

Right, but it still cannot be used as an anesthetic even at near 100% purity, so it will not put me to sleep.

"Nitrous oxide has low anaesthetic potency, with a concentration of 105% required for single minimum alveolar concentration (MAC) anaesthesia, a clearly unreasonable proposition at atmospheric pressure."

https://academic.oup.com/bjaed/article/16/3/87/2897753

 

[Jadeith]

How is this relevant?

As you starve yourself of oxygen with N2O you will try to hold your breath while underwater, no? As i understood, yours is unventilated setup?

ight, but it still cannot be used as an anesthetic even at near 100% purity, so it will not put me to sleep.

Only in relaxed state, i understand that. Was pointing out that since you might not have effective way to remove CO2 from your system, there might be emergency mechanisms present worth taking into consideration. Mechanisms that might not be dulled by weak N2O effect as an anesthetic agent.

Whole point of the discussion was that what you plan is basically a form of unventilated exit bag with possible additional benefits of N2O numbing any additional body response caused by lack of proper CO2 removal. Since, from what you quoted, N2O effects seem to be negligible and potential unconsciousness will come mainly from oxygen deprivation, the effects of corresponding hypercapnia might ruin your attempt. Or SI, should drowning response kick in before you lose consciousness due to dropping oxygen levels and find yourself under water.

That's why i have my reservations toward this setup. Too many things to consider that might go wrong.

 

[Eudaimonic]

As you starve yourself of oxygen with N2O you will try to hold your breath while underwater, no? As i understood, yours is unventilated setup?

Only in relaxed state, i understand that. Was pointing out that since you might not have effective way to remove CO2 from your system, there might be emergency mechanisms present worth taking into consideration. Mechanisms that might not be dulled by weak N2O effect as an anesthetic agent.

Whole point of the discussion was that what you plan is basically a form of unventilated exit bag with possible additional benefits of N2O numbing any additional body response caused by lack of proper CO2 removal. Since, from what you quoted, N2O effects seem to be negligible and potential unconsciousness will come mainly from oxygen deprivation, the effects of corresponding hypercapnia might ruin your attempt. Or SI, should drowning response kick in before you lose consciousness due to dropping oxygen levels and find yourself under water.

That's why i have my reservations toward this setup. Too many things to consider that might go wrong.

I see. Well, that is what the point of the hyperventilation is - to induce hypocapnia (although this is mainly so that I will be able to hold my breath for longer after inhaling the N2O), though too much hypocapnia could lead to excessive vasoconstriction, which as I understand it could potentially be problematic - so I'm not sure how essential it really is but imo no reason not to do it. The breath hold underwater will happen last as I am about to lose consciousness. Drowning response will have no chance to kick in because I won't be underwater until I am just about to lose consciousness due to hypoxia.

 

[Jadeith]

Well, i sincerely hope it will work out for you the way you planned it. When time comes, have peaceful journey.

 

[k1w1]

Preparations.

Obtain a 500 ml whipped cream dispenser and 20 or more 8g N2O chargers, a few latex balloons withstanding expansion up to 25 cm or more in diameter, 5 - 10 identical LDPE bags having the real capacity of 20 - 35 liters each (the real capacity may significantly differ from the one declared by the manufacturer), PVC electrical tape, and nail scissors with sharp edges.

Disassembly and wash the dispenser from inside with warm water, then dry it before the first use.

Test for light euphoria from N2O.

Put the opening end of the prepared latex balloon on the output of the dispenser. Place an N2O charger into the holder with the smallest end facing upwards. Twist the charger holder onto the head of the dispenser until you hear a hiss as the gas starts to be released. Hold the latex balloon by one hand and press the lever of the dispenser to release the gas into the balloon.

Hyperventilate for 20 seconds, compress the opening end of the balloon, take it off, choose a safe location and position in order to avoid injuries due to falling, plug the nose, make several deep breaths into and from the balloon for about half a minute or until unusual sensations occur. Breathe with fresh atmospheric air for half a minute, then repeat respirations with the balloon for about 20 seconds, then breathe with atmospheric air as usually.

Test for fainting from N2O.

If the dispenser contains only air, the dispenser should be filled with N2O as described above and the gas mixture (about 8 parts of N2O + 1 part of air) should be removed from the dispenser in order to reduce the percent of air (and particularly oxygen) inside (the gas can be used for relaxation) and the dispenser should be refilled with another N2O charger.

Fill the prepared latex balloon as described above, lie on your side on a bed, hyperventilate for 20 seconds, exhale as much air as possible by applying a significant effort, inhale as much gas from the balloon as possible, then hold your breath for about 30 seconds.

If you couldn't pass out from inhaling a single portion and you want to try to achieve a complete blackout nevertheless, then you can refill the balloon right after the first inhalation, exhale the gas mixture from the lungs maximally, and inhale the second portion similarly to the first one.

Training proper handling of plastic bag.

Before the actual CTB procedure is performed, it makes sense to train the skills of putting the bag over the head and sealing it properly.

Exercise 1. A plastic bag should be inflated with air, punctured by scissors, and ripped by hands in order to determine the effort needed to restore breathing with fresh air in emergency case - if you can't unseal it quickly enough just by unwrapping the tape.

Exercise 2. A plastic bag should be inflated with air (up to the full capacity), then its opening end should be closed and placed right above the head (as close as possible). After that, the bag should be placed over the head so that its opening end would cover the neck, approximately 1/4 - 1/3 part of the remaining air should be removed from the bag by compressing it with a hand, and 3 circles of electrical tape should be wrapped around the neck.

Exercise 3. Put the opening end of the bag on the output of the dispenser, secure the connection with 1.5 - 2 circles of electrical tape. Try to inflate the bag with gas from the dispenser filled with a single N2O charger, then unwrap and remove the tape. Removing the tape should not cause disruption of the bag.

Test for potential airtightness of a secured bag.

A plastic bag is placed over the head and secured over the neck as described above in Exercise 2, then 5 - 10 matches containing sulfur are burned nearby and placed into a bowl with water. If you can't notice the smell of sulfur dioxide for a minute after that, the bag may be deemed airtight.

CTB protocol.

1. Prepare an LDPE plastic bag having the real capacity of 20 - 35 liters. Inflate the bag with air and inspect it for possible leaks. After checking the bag, remove as much air from it as possible.
2. If the dispenser contains only air, use an N2O charger to displace air as described above in the section "Test for fainting from N2O".
3. Put the opening end of the bag on the output of the dispenser, secure the connection with 1.5 - 2 circles of electrical tape. Release N2O from a charger into the dispenser and then from the dispenser into the bag. Repeat the cycle of filling the dispenser and the bag until the full capacity of the bag is used. Do not ever refill the dispenser before releasing previously charged gas from it. Avoid a possible excess of pressure in the bag that might lead to disruption.
4. Unwrap and remove the tape, detach the bag from the dispenser, close its opening end by hands, preventing (or reducing to bare minimum) possible leaks.
5. Hyperventilate for 30 - 60 seconds.
6. This step should be done quickly and immediately after step 5. Sit down and place the opening end of the bag right above the head (as close as possible).
7. This step should be done quickly and immediately after step 6. Exhale as much air from the lungs as possible by applying a significant effort, stop breathing and place the bag over the head so that its opening end would cover the neck. Remove approximately 1/4 - 1/3 part of the remaining N2O gas from the bag by compressing it with a hand.
8. This step should be done quickly and immediately after step 7. Wrap 7 - 10 circles of PVC electrical tape around the neck (over the bag) and lie on the ground or the floor.
9. Inhale deeply and then breathe as you like.

Did you come up with this or is it a quote? Nitrous oxide will not kill you. This whole thread has so many hypotheticals as to be worthless. Noone survives a correctly set up Nitrogen method.

 

[apict]

Some uncoordinated moves are possible, but excitement is typical during the second stage of general anesthesia too (right after LOC), and it's not related to accumulation of CO2. I haven't seen any mentioning of surgical patients removing their face mask during the excitement/delirium stage.

If the issue is will a low level of oxygen in the blood cause possibly frantic efforts to breathe even if unconscious, I believe the answer is YES. Everybody has a built in physiologic response to low PO2. Some people who have chronically elevated PCO2 levels actually rely on "hypoxic drive" to keep breathing. But that hypoxic drive is real even if the CO2 levels are not high. It's just that in people who don't have chronically elevated CO2 levels, the increased respiratory response to elevated CO2 kicks in before the O@ fallslowenough for hypoxic drive to kick in. Surgical patients don't try to remove their masks because their O2 and CO2 levels are kept "normal."