Venting When people act "surprised" when someone CTBs

[TAW122]

This thread is in response to people's statements towards people who have CTB'd such as: "He/she should have reached out for help!", "People care about (insert person's name/you)", or any hollow affirmations. Perhaps if people actually listened and actually empathized instead of shaming, bullying, or even projecting their own selfish views towards life, then the suicidal people may still stay around instead of secretly hiding and then going through with their method (more oftenly than not, without dignity and/or painfully). Mainly the majority of society has this view towards "suicidal" people and wanting them to disappear (out of sight, out of mind), but then at the same time, they are bothered when the suicidal finally CTBs. It's like they want to eat their cake and have it at the same time. Basically, they don't want to hear about others' problems, but then at the same time, act surprised and feign empathy for the suicidal when he/she actually goes through with suicide.

Another point I want to emphasize is that since the world is rather cruel and people are generally selfish, they oftenly tell others "The world doesn't owe you anything. You are not entitled to anything." Yet when it comes to choosing when to die and dying on one's own terms, they entirely flip out and say "No! You can't do it!", "Please don't!", "Suicide is selfish!", or anything that is serving the greater group (society, government, the collective group). In a sense, it is hypocritical because they are saying that they don't owe anything towards the suicidal or anyone in general, yet suicidal people have to stay alive for them just so they don't feel sadness. If you apply the same logic as their "not entitled to anything claim", then this is the quote that I will respond to that claim: "If I'm not entitled to anything, then the world is not entitled to my existence and presence. I choose whether to live or die on my own terms." Of course, I wouldn't say it in person for risk of raising suspicion, but I'd figure I at least point out the irony, hypocrisy, and naiveté of society as a collective.

See my thread on toxic positivity, as it illustrates people who are unwilling accept any kind of negativity, especially if it brings them down and ruins the mood. They are really naive and blissfully ignorant towards reality. Reality is oftenly brutal, ugly, and merciless. People go through such efforts and mental gymnastics to distract themselves of how pointless, shitty, and evil the real world is. Getting them to realize this would often upset, anger, and even stir up hostile emotions and responses.

 

[Diceroller90]

It's like they want to eat their cake and have it at the same time.

I just want to say it put a smile on my face seeing someone use this expression right! I always found it odd when people reversed it... like you are supposed to eat your cake when you have it. That is why you have a cake in the first place. [/pedantic tangent]

This thread is in response to people's statements towards people who have CTB'd such as: "He/she should have reached out for help!", "People care about (insert person's name/you)", or any hollow affirmations. Perhaps if people actually listened and actually empathized instead of shaming, bullying, or even projecting their own selfish views towards life, then the suicidal people may still stay around instead of secretly hiding and then going through with their method (more oftenly than not, without dignity and/or painfully). Mainly the majority of society has this view towards "suicidal" people and wanting them to disappear (out of sight, out of mind), but then at the same time, they are bothered when the suicidal finally CTBs. It's like they want to eat their cake and have it at the same time. Basically, they don't want to hear about others' problems, but then at the same time, act surprised and feign empathy for the suicidal when he/she actually goes through with suicide.

Another point I want to emphasize is that since the world is rather cruel and people are generally selfish, they oftenly tell others "The world doesn't owe you anything. You are not entitled to anything." Yet when it comes to choosing when to die and dying on one's own terms, they entirely flip out and say "No! You can't do it!", "Please don't!", "Suicide is selfish!", or anything that is serving the greater group (society, government, the collective group). In a sense, it is hypocritical because they are saying that they don't owe anything towards the suicidal or anyone in general, yet suicidal people have to stay alive for them just so they don't feel sadness. If you apply the same logic as their "not entitled to anything claim", then this is the quote that I will respond to that claim: "If I'm not entitled to anything, then the world is not entitled to my existence and presence. I choose whether to live or die on my own terms." Of course, I wouldn't say it in person for risk of raising suspicion, but I'd figure I at least point out the irony, hypocrisy, and naiveté of society as a collective.

See my thread on toxic positivity, as it illustrates people who are unwilling accept any kind of negativity, especially if it brings them down and ruins the mood. They are really naive and blissfully ignorant towards reality. Reality is oftenly brutal, ugly, and merciless. People go through such efforts and mental gymnastics to distract themselves of how pointless, shitty, and evil the real world is. Getting them to realize this would often upset, anger, and even stir up hostile emotions and responses.

I absolutely agree. I really hate the hollowness when people try to save with platitudes. My biggest pet peeve are those blasted bots that you see whenever you type the word suicide on the internet. The ones that say "its okay to chose life, here are some numbers to talk too." Honestly makes me want to eat a bullet then and there.

At the same time, I do my best to put myself in the shoes of others. Especially people who are happy. Suicide is an utterly alien concept to most people. No one knows how to deal with it or how to talk to people who are going down that path. So when people like you or I reach out for help, we put a whole bunch of stress on their shoulders. They are worried about what they say, they are upset that their view that life is worth living has been threatened, and most importantly: they are unable to comprehend it. They think its just being really sad, and when they are sad they snap out of it soon enough. Hence why we see them as trivializing it.

Now don't take this as me excusing them or what not, as I said: I hate it too. I just like thought experiments like this and I wanted to explain what I believe their train of thought is.

 

[Naysha]

This thread is in response to people's statements towards people who have CTB'd such as: "He/she should have reached out for help!", "People care about (insert person's name/you)", or any hollow affirmations. Perhaps if people actually listened and actually empathized instead of shaming, bullying, or even projecting their own selfish views towards life, then the suicidal people may still stay around instead of secretly hiding and then going through with their method (more oftenly than not, without dignity and/or painfully). Mainly the majority of society has this view towards "suicidal" people and wanting them to disappear (out of sight, out of mind), but then at the same time, they are bothered when the suicidal finally CTBs. It's like they want to eat their cake and have it at the same time. Basically, they don't want to hear about others' problems, but then at the same time, act surprised and feign empathy for the suicidal when he/she actually goes through with suicide.

Another point I want to emphasize is that since the world is rather cruel and people are generally selfish, they oftenly tell others "The world doesn't owe you anything. You are not entitled to anything." Yet when it comes to choosing when to die and dying on one's own terms, they entirely flip out and say "No! You can't do it!", "Please don't!", "Suicide is selfish!", or anything that is serving the greater group (society, government, the collective group). In a sense, it is hypocritical because they are saying that they don't owe anything towards the suicidal or anyone in general, yet suicidal people have to stay alive for them just so they don't feel sadness. If you apply the same logic as their "not entitled to anything claim", then this is the quote that I will respond to that claim: "If I'm not entitled to anything, then the world is not entitled to my existence and presence. I choose whether to live or die on my own terms." Of course, I wouldn't say it in person for risk of raising suspicion, but I'd figure I at least point out the irony, hypocrisy, and naiveté of society as a collective.

See my thread on toxic positivity, as it illustrates people who are unwilling accept any kind of negativity, especially if it brings them down and ruins the mood. They are really naive and blissfully ignorant towards reality. Reality is oftenly brutal, ugly, and merciless. People go through such efforts and mental gymnastics to distract themselves of how pointless, shitty, and evil the real world is. Getting them to realize this would often upset, anger, and even stir up hostile emotions and responses.

You pretty much nailed it but the way I also see it is people like to feel good about themselves and mostly they pretend to care when in fact they do not. The strange behavior around suicide is also probably coming off the fear of death which although understandable still makes things worse. Humanity is not willing to stop suffering, stop reproducing or advance science in huge strides so the suffering is lessened if they can't stop having children or at least allow people full bodily autonomy and allow them to leave with dignity. I also suspect they are afraid to confront death head-on, even though they were sentenced themselves to it and their progeny if they chose to have children which means they can't still avoid it so why being so annoyed on people wanting to commit suicide. In fact, focusing on more awareness and not being toxic negatively or positively would make at least some difference, a peaceful way out would be one of those things. Imo, it all boils down to the fact that humans are deeply flawed and actually kind of psychotic. As someone said " humanity is just traumatized apes" which is what we are in the end.

 

[S1mpleme]

The most annoying to me is when people act like they didn't know. Like Shawn Shatto's parents that blame this website instead of themself. They didn't care of her if they didn't see how stressful is her life, this is their daughter and if they wanted to they would know that.

 

[MysticPerception]

I'm starting to think we should just document all of your posts and create a small book with them. Your insight and well thought out answers are amazingly in depth and helpful to read.

 

[shoganai]

...yet suicidal people have to stay alive for them just so they don't feel sadness. If you apply the same logic as their "not entitled to anything claim", then this is the quote that I will respond to that claim: "If I'm not entitled to anything, then the world is not entitled to my existence and presence. I choose whether to live or die on my own terms."

100% agree with this chunk. It's selfish to commit suicide, yes, but I would argue it's far more selfish to ask someone to stay alive and suffer to save them some personal grief. Plus, in my opinion the whole concept demonstrates that they don't know how it feels to legitimately want to kill yourself. Such as going thru an endogenous (non-situational), chronic, hopeless depression. I hate to say something so cliche, but it's one of those things you can't truly understand unless you've been through it.

I don't want to cling to life for the sake of other people (thank God I don't have kids or an SO). All it will do is end in disappointment and hurt.


One more thing: I agree that no one is entitled to other's existences. I don't feel worthy enough to say that about myself. I feel like I'm subhuman. But I can say that about people in general, if that makes sense.

 

[TAW122]

@Diceroller90 Thanks and as far as thought/social experiments are concerned, there is a video (not sure if it highlights it well, but it does show some people's reaction to people in crisis).



The video is a bit cringey though, with all guilt trips and selfishness though.

As someone said " humanity is just traumatized apes" which is what we are in the end.

@Naysha Thanks and yes, I like that last sentence.

@S1mpleme Yes, Shatto's parents were more about themselves and about "look, we are going to push our agenda into policy and what not". In fact, I believe her parents pushed a law to be passed in their state (PA). Also, what they said was cliche, especially that "it gets better".



@MysticPerception Thank you very much and I'm happy to know that my insights and ideas are helpful to combat the pro-life, anti-suicide, anti-choice world. I have wrote many articles and topics, and one of things I at least plan to do when the day comes that I decide to check out of this world is to somehow get my ideas and insights passed on.

@shoganai Good post, and yes, many people just don't understand and it's too risky to even approach such a subject IRL due to the unwanted potential consequences such as social ostracization, judgment, or worse, getting locked up in a psych ward for thinking and saying the "wrong" thing. I suppose for the general populace, ignorance is bliss.

 

[Tempeste]

Yep. Word gets out and cue all the facebook memes of "I'm listening!" and Hashtag BeTheOne.
They're all super concerned afterwards, convincing themselves of their empathy and compassion.

Very often the same people who know you've been suicidal a while and awkwardly avoid you in public, online, turn down personal invites and "just can't talk right now gotta do.....things. maybe later"

Watchrd the above video.
It obviously mentions this site.
I haven't been here long but I see many people offer options esp to those who are obviously acting impulsively. Even in goodbye threads there are posts about being here for support if you change you mind. I just read one where a member offered to talk by PM and call rescue if the person decided last second not to ctb.
All I heard on that video was that suicide is NEVER an option, that forcing a person to exist is the only path.
How incredibly selfish and hurtful
They call people who don't judge "murderers". Yet in their own home, they couldn't see the truth in front of their faces. They're lashing out bc of GUILT. Bc of jealousy that their daughter found more safety and comfort in a room full of strangers than her own family.

I hope Shawn is at peace. I hope her family gets the help they need to accept that it wasn't their choice, it was hers.

 

[Throwmyselfaway]

I was in a group on another social forum about ctb. However all they want to do is talk to make a person feel better or make sure they call a chat line or go see a shrink. Sometimes you just need to speak to people about how you feel and why you want to do this without being judged.

 

[SuiSqueeze92]

My buddy that recently made that cross, his death itself bothered me.. but what really bothered me was that he had the courage to do it and I never did or currently do. I'm still holding out for something for some reason.

Plus I tend to notice the shocked ones about suicides are usually the people that don't have outlooks in life like mentally ill people do... so it's no wonder their judgement is shit when they can't even see the world for what it is.

 

[TAW122]

Agreed @Tempeste, and yes, Shawn's parents do need to grieve and move on at some point. Not to be harsh on their loss, but they need to respect their daughter's choice (she's 25 as well, full well into a legal adult). Furthermore, creating and pushing anti-suicide, anti-choice laws don't really help the larger scope of things, it only drives genuinely suicidal people deeper underground.

@Throwmyselfaway Yes, I couldn't agree more. So far, I can't find nor know of any other place that allows free, open discussion about suicide, right to die, and various similar topics without censorship or being condescended, treated like a child, like an ill person/victim. I fully agree with you that sometimes all the person needs and wants is to have someone listen without judgment, without threat of consequences (forced intervention, treatment, locked up against one's will, etc.), and some empathy.

@SuiSqueeze92 I find it that the "mentally ill" people are oftenly more rational and realistic than many people in this world. Many people in this world are oftenly happily deluded and robotic to the point that they blindingly accept just about anything. They are basically sycophants in the world.

 

[Zoltiel]

Most people just haven't been in horrific situations before, they don't know the possibilities so they think it's "selfish". Look at the people who got botched lasik surgeries https://lasikcomplications.com/suicide.htm Some of them were as young as 19, some of them were olympic athletes. The enormity of their mistake, which resulted in permanent loss of vision from an unnecessary procedure, would drive anyone into insanity. The only reasonable option for these people was to ctb. It is unfathomable to me that any human that is not a psychopath, would think these people were being "selfish".

 

[TAW122]

Most people just haven't been in horrific situations before, they don't know the possibilities so they think it's "selfish". Look at the people who got botched lasik surgeries https://lasikcomplications.com/suicide.htm Some of them were as young as 19, some of them were olympic athletes. The enormity of their mistake, which resulted in permanent loss of vision from an unnecessary procedure, would drive anyone into insanity. The only reasonable option for these people was to ctb. It is unfathomable to me that any human that is not a psychopath, would think these people were being "selfish".

It is understandable to why they attempted CTB as losing vision is one of the most horrifying losses in one's life, and of course their looks, self-esteem that goes with the botched surgery. One of the uglier things on that site is of course, the obligatory suicide prevention number and paragraph about getting "help."