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Terrible_Life_99

Student
Jul 3, 2025
125
Thomas Joiner, a leading expert on suicide, is best known for his Interpersonal-Psychological Theory of Suicide. This theory, outlined in his book "Why People Die by Suicide" (2005), proposes that serious suicidal behavior occurs when three specific conditions converge:



* Thwarted Belongingness: This refers to the feeling of alienation and social disconnection, a sense that one does not belong to or is not an integral part of a valued group (e.g., family, friends, community). Humans have a fundamental need for social connection, and when these ties are cut or perceived as absent, individuals suffer in isolation.

* Perceived Burdensomeness: This is the belief that one's existence is a burden on others. This perception is subjective; it doesn't matter what others actually think, but rather how the individual views themselves. A common thought associated with this is, "My death is worth more to the people that love me than I am alive."

* Acquired Capability for Suicide: While the desire for suicide (resulting from thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) is necessary, it's not sufficient for a suicide attempt. Joiner argues that individuals must also overcome their innate instinct for self-preservation and develop a "capability" to inflict lethal self-injury. This capability is acquired through repeated exposure to painful and provocative experiences. These experiences can include:
* Previous self-injury (which habituates individuals to pain and fear of death, making future attempts more likely).
* Repeated accidental injuries.
* Other physically painful or fear-inducing experiences (e.g., childhood trauma, witnessing traumatic events, severe illness).
 
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Wolf Girl

Wolf Girl

"This place made me feel worthless"
Jun 12, 2024
544
Honestly, I've avoided talking about Joiner's Theory publicly because there are a lot of kids on here who I think don't need to learn how to acquire the capacity to enact lethal harm.
 
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Eudaimonic

Eudaimonic

I want to fade away.
Aug 11, 2023
898
It's an oversimplification imo; likely applies to some demographics and age groups more than others. I think the etiology (or etiologies, I suppose) of suicide tends to be far more multifactorial. I'm more partial to the three-step theory of suicide, which it seems is broader in its scope.
 
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brokeandbroken

Enlightened
Apr 18, 2023
1,194
Thomas Joiner, a leading expert on suicide, is best known for his Interpersonal-Psychological Theory of Suicide. This theory, outlined in his book "Why People Die by Suicide" (2005), proposes that serious suicidal behavior occurs when three specific conditions converge:



* Thwarted Belongingness: This refers to the feeling of alienation and social disconnection, a sense that one does not belong to or is not an integral part of a valued group (e.g., family, friends, community). Humans have a fundamental need for social connection, and when these ties are cut or perceived as absent, individuals suffer in isolation.

* Perceived Burdensomeness: This is the belief that one's existence is a burden on others. This perception is subjective; it doesn't matter what others actually think, but rather how the individual views themselves. A common thought associated with this is, "My death is worth more to the people that love me than I am alive."

* Acquired Capability for Suicide: While the desire for suicide (resulting from thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) is necessary, it's not sufficient for a suicide attempt. Joiner argues that individuals must also overcome their innate instinct for self-preservation and develop a "capability" to inflict lethal self-injury. This capability is acquired through repeated exposure to painful and provocative experiences. These experiences can include:
* Previous self-injury (which habituates individuals to pain and fear of death, making future attempts more likely).
* Repeated accidental injuries.
* Other physically painful or fear-inducing experiences (e.g., childhood trauma, witnessing traumatic events, severe illness).
Kind of curious how you can not belong to any group and yet feel a burden to a group. I'm a straight white male so not a demographic the ACLU would ever care about. I definitely don't belong. That said while I am probably a burden to them by simply existing. I also just don't give a fuck because I am not in the group.
 
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Terrible_Life_99

Student
Jul 3, 2025
125
It's an oversimplification imo; likely applies to some demographics and age groups more than others. I think the etiology (or etiologies, I suppose) of suicide tends to be far more multifactorial. I'm more partial to the three-step theory of suicide, which it seems is broader in its scope.
I think his first point is very good. Its this feeling that you're not part of society you're isolated. This feeling that there's a huge world and everything but you are staying outside. You can just watch but not participate. When I get this feeling my whole Body gets cold and I get paralyzed for that moment. Its a very sad feeling.
 
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alwaysalone

Specialist
May 14, 2025
332
Kind of curious how you can not belong to any group and yet feel a burden to a group. I'm a straight white male so not a demographic the ACLU would ever care about. I definitely don't belong. That said while I am probably a burden to them by simply existing. I also just don't give a fuck because I am not in the group.
I think he is talking about feelings vs logic in a sense. A person can feel they dont belong (think accepted) by society or even family. However logically they know they're a burden in the sense that they consume resources yet don't contribute resources. Their family provides the government provides or even charities provide.

I have heard it said in many different mediums and ways that suicide becomes desirable when the person has no more hope. Truly to their core they have no hope things will get better or even change. Humans are horrifically adept at adapting to terrible situations and still finding hope even when they don't want to.
 
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Chuunibyou

Chuunibyou

ghost possessing this body
Jun 11, 2025
16
I haven't heard of this before, but think this is interesting. even if just as a jumping off point for extended theory
 
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brokeandbroken

Enlightened
Apr 18, 2023
1,194
I think he is talking about feelings vs logic in a sense. A person can feel they dont belong (think accepted) by society or even family. However logically they know they're a burden in the sense that they consume resources yet don't contribute resources. Their family provides the government provides or even charities provide.

I have heard it said in many different mediums and ways that suicide becomes desirable when the person has no more hope. Truly to their core they have no hope things will get better or even change. Humans are horrifically adept at adapting to terrible situations and still finding hope even when they don't want to.
I mean if you are completely rejected by society why would you care about being a burden. It may be lack of purpose or lack of love that could drive it. But for a sense of burden to be truly felt I dont see how you could be completely rejected from it to actually matter.

My story is a good example. I have a college degree, went to medical school. Was the victim of crimes that resulted in me being illegally forced out. Family included when I got everyone rejected me. Ive applied to 1000+ jobs. I genuinely want to contribute to society and I am also pursuing justice. That said the systems are difficult to cut through alone and in my home state government jobs starting in August will require straight white men if they will he hired for a company to justify it only group where a justification is required. If laws are downstream of culture clearly based on the data (not me) straight white men are preferentially not hired. Even hiring managers are straight up told not to hire white men. Am I the most hireable candidate in every one of those jobs no. But if you are looking for an opportunity after facing hurdles thrown in your way more obstacles are a problem. When you have no social network because everyone said fuck off. Having the state do the same is like thats a lot of rejection and honestly it's a lot a bit personal.

Ironically I also wouldn't be alive if the state didnt provide food/lodging. But I dont want handouts I want opportunities. Im willing to apply and do everything necessary. But if they dont simply dont exist they dont exist. I have troubles dealing with myself because I guess im a burden to myself because of my view of the world. But do I look at society and care deeply about the traumatic impact of me eating and sleeping. No. Give me any of one of the opportunities im qualified for and ill pay for it myself.

Phrased another way if it was heres a lawyer they'll fight for you, if it was heres a job application they'll hire you, etc... And I wasn't fighting myself or doing it id consider myself a burden. I realize that me being alive could be taken as some tacit admission i am within society but I disagree there isnt someone within the government going and heres a check for so and so so they can live this month. Im at best a number.
 
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skeptikus

Member
May 25, 2025
32
Initial reaction: He obviously have not experienced how it is to be genuinely suicidal. I mean maybe all suicidal people have experienced at least one of the things he mentioned. But some people just want to ctb for no clear reason. They are loved and they know it. They have money. People adore them. But they just don't give a fuck anymore. They just wanna ctb plain and simple. No rational explanations whatsoever.
 
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permanently tired

permanently tired

it's never enough
Nov 8, 2023
265
Initial reaction: He obviously have not experienced how it is to be genuinely suicidal. I mean maybe all suicidal people have experienced at least one of the things he mentioned. But some people just want to ctb for no clear reason. They are loved and they know it. They have money. People adore them. But they just don't give a fuck anymore. They just wanna ctb plain and simple. No rational explanations whatsoever.
It could be that the suicidal person does feel they love other ppl back or that the extent of that love is shallow
 
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Terrible_Life_99

Student
Jul 3, 2025
125
I've read that most of the suicide attempts happen impulsively and also that long planned suicides are rare. Its interesting because I think most of us here are planning everything and reflecting our life until we made the final decision. I could never do suicide impulsively knowing that so much could go wrong.
 
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Intoxicated

Intoxicated

MIA Man
Nov 16, 2023
955
* Thwarted Belongingness: This refers to the feeling of alienation and social disconnection, a sense that one does not belong to or is not an integral part of a valued group (e.g., family, friends, community). Humans have a fundamental need for social connection, and when these ties are cut or perceived as absent, individuals suffer in isolation.
I disagree about the claim that "Humans have a fundamental need for social connection". I believe that humans have a fundamental need for entertainment. A lack of entertainment causes the feeling of boredom. Social connections are just a convenient tool for gaining entertainment, but this tool is not irreplaceable. For example, I could spend days playing some computer games with interesting plot and mechanics without wishing to do anything with people IRL. I only feel the need in social interactions when I'm not busy with some very entertaining process I could deal with alone.

It is important that highly pleasant entertainment commonly requires new impressions. When you complete a game for the first time, you get maximum new information to process and your brain appreciates this a lot. But when you beat the same game for the 1000th time, it won't give you so many fresh emotions and won't be so entertaining as before.

The same applies to interactions with the people around us. When those people give us new impressions, we find the social game with them entertaining. If your interaction with them is limited by similar conversations repeated over and over again, you easily get bored of dealing with them eventually.

Craving for social connections in the absence of them is determined by the feeling of missing opportunities in gaining entertainment from such connections rather than "fundamental need for social connection". Imagine that all people around you just told you that they recently watched a new movie which they call superb and would rate 10/10. You could feel a great disappointment if watching this movie were impossible for you, but this doesn't mean that there is some "fundamental need" in watching good movies. It's just a frustration from a missing opportunity to get a portion of good emotions from some fresh experience.
* Acquired Capability for Suicide: While the desire for suicide (resulting from thwarted belongingness and perceived burdensomeness) is necessary, it's not sufficient for a suicide attempt. Joiner argues that individuals must also overcome their innate instinct for self-preservation and develop a "capability" to inflict lethal self-injury.
I think that the theories about "innate instinct for self-preservation" are too primitive and naive at the same time. I can compare them to the geocentric model of the universe. There were times when people thought that the Sun revolves around the Earth, and this point of view may seem correct at the first glance. If you dive deeply in astronomy, you can notice that this model sucks at explaining the movement of celestial bodies.

Assuming that some biological program is triggered by just the fact of recognized danger of death and then can stop us from committing suicide is somewhat similar to assuming that the Earth is the center of the universe and everything else revolves around it. The real situation is different and more complicated at the same time.

It is an undeniable fact that people have an intrinsic aversion to discomfort (including physical pain that is a particular form of discomfort) which play some role in self-preservation. While discomfort avoidance is helpful for survival of population in general, it's not necessarily helpful in particular situations. It's easy to notice counter-examples showing that discomfort avoidance often leads to self-destructive behavior or even death.

If you're a heavy smoker, your attempts to stop smoking will likely face with severe discomfort which will motivate you to resolve it. The counter-motivation to care about your health will likely lose against the motivation to satisfy the urge in smoking, and then your unhealthy self-destructive behavior continues. So where is "self-preservation" here? Hello, survival instinct, where are you? You realize that your health is in danger, however discomfort avoidance not only doesn't prevent the harmful activity, but directly encourages it.

Severe physical pain and mental distress (boredom, frustration, sadness, etc) can push people towards suicide as the only available method of getting rid of the discomfort associated with such states. Obviously, suicide is quite the opposite to self-preservation, so the role of aversion to discomfort and discomfort avoidance is in fact rather controversial than exclusively life-supporting. Avoiding discomfort is not subordinate to survival (contrary to what self-preservation theories would suggest), and it may actually dominate over survival. When a person is survived due to discomfort avoidance, it's a lucky coincidence. Evolution made such lucky coincidences happening often enough to ensure survival of the population as a whole, but the underlying mechanism remains rather imperfect.

The regret about the loss of opportunities due to death may also contribute to hesitation about committing suicide. But the same regrets might also prevent you from doing non-lethal actions that would result in a similar loss, so it would be premature to blame self-preservation instincts in your attachment to the life. You're attached to entertainment/pleasure in the first place, that automatically makes you value any means which provide you access to these basic values, and life becomes valuable since it belongs to the set of such means.

When attempting suicide, 4 main concerns or problems may arise:

1) short-term discomfort prior to death if it comes within an anticipated time,

2) possible long-term discomfort if suicide attempt fails or results in a much slower and much more unpleasant death than initially anticipated,

3) loss of potential opportunities,

4) despite your decision to CTB, the widespread opinion that death is a bad and tragic thing may influence your intuitive attitude to it.

Some combination of these 4 factors may cause a psychological pressure and counter-motivate you against making suicide done. If this happens, the best thing you can do is to investigate what factors and in what proportion motivated you to stop following your plan; and the worst thing you can do is to blame the fictional monster called "survival instinct", that is not helpful at all. In particular, your level of acceptance of the worst possible scenario may determine how easily you get over the problem #2 on the way of eliminating the fears before CTB.
 
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death_by_life

Member
Sep 28, 2024
53
This actually makes sense to me, which maybe makes me unspecial or typical enough to be a poster child for this theory. It is sort of a catch-22 regarding a lack of belonging vs feeling like a burden. Humans, as a social species, do have an innate need for cooperation and to be connected to each other for survival, even though there's quite a variation in how or if that presents itself in the individual. There are also mitigating factors that can change the relationship to that need, and so it can be possible to eschew it all together if one has sufficiently bad experiences with people (or if there's something biological that changes how connection works for an individual, which I think is less common, though I have no evidence for that). The current state of much of our world is a sad testament to that. I desperately want to belong, but absolutely never will, and since I can't provide for myself and my dependents, I am a burden on those who are providing for me even though I don't feel a connection to them (anymore). The only part I haven't quite gotten to yet is the "Acquired Capability for Suicide," which in a sort of fucked up way reiterates my general lack of self-efficacy. Like, I can't even manage to get the materials that other people have no trouble getting in order to ctb! 🤣
 
Gustav Hartmann

Gustav Hartmann

Enlightened
Aug 28, 2021
1,194
Social disconnection and beeing a burdon to others describes quite good the situation of old people.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
12,772
I expect it might apply to some people. Not sure it does to me. I am isolated but, from choice. I prefer to be alone. While it may possibly have given me a sense of belonging had I continued to try to be part of a group, most of the time, social anxiety made the experience awful! Plus- what group? People are so unreliable. Maybe that is why so many of us are miserable though. The breaking down of families and communities.

I work hard not to be a burden on people. My frustration/ resentment comes from being alive and being expected to function in this society. I can do it. I just don't want to! So no- I don't feel a burden. I feel burdened.

If I manage to pull off suicide, it will be the first serious self harm I have ever done to myself. I've smacked myself on the head or around the face on the odd occassion. That's hardly going to prepare me to drink a poison! So- if I ever do it, I'd say a good 2, maybe all 3 of his theories don't apply to me.

It's too basic I think to simplify suicide to just a couple of causes. I think the breakdown of social systems certainly doesn't do anyone any favours but then- not everyone who's alone kills themselves.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
7,180
Perhaps for the common, everyday average person, that 'theory' that Joiner has might apply to them. However, for me, while not having the means might be a big factor, it doesn't make me less wanting to CTB. Instead, I feel more burdened and trapped. I have goals and ambitions, desires, and what not to fulfill, but I'm not sure I could readily fulfill them in this sentience existence. Of course, beyond just the goals and lack of fulfillment there are so many other reasons, philosophical, personal, and more (I could go into a megathread about all that but won't do so here) for wanting to CTB. Even if I'm generally, relatively physically healthy as of current, that isn't to say what could happen down the road, plus all other complications too and the way the system is; I simply don't want to be part of a shitshow that I never consented to be in the first place.
 
T

Terrible_Life_99

Student
Jul 3, 2025
125
This actually makes sense to me, which maybe makes me unspecial or typical enough to be a poster child for this theory. It is sort of a catch-22 regarding a lack of belonging vs feeling like a burden. Humans, as a social species, do have an innate need for cooperation and to be connected to each other for survival, even though there's quite a variation in how or if that presents itself in the individual. There are also mitigating factors that can change the relationship to that need, and so it can be possible to eschew it all together if one has sufficiently bad experiences with people (or if there's something biological that changes how connection works for an individual, which I think is less common, though I have no evidence for that). The current state of much of our world is a sad testament to that. I desperately want to belong, but absolutely never will, and since I can't provide for myself and my dependents, I am a burden on those who are providing for me even though I don't feel a connection to them (anymore). The only part I haven't quite gotten to yet is the "Acquired Capability for Suicide," which in a sort of fucked up way reiterates my general lack of self-efficacy. Like, I can't even manage to get the materials that other people have no trouble getting in order to ctb! 🤣
Hi don't worry. Just order a good quality rope from amazon and learn the knots
 
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AnimeSlayersFan

AnimeSlayersFan

Student
Jul 18, 2025
123
I mean, I guess it's a nice theory? I'm not so sure tho, like, yea, if you feel rejected and a burden and you have experience with suicidal/self harm behaviour and methods you can then kill yourself? I don't think it's something hard to wrap your head around.
But you can also kill yourself due to like, stress, availability, avoiding suffering or responsablity, addiction, so like, I think it's a pretty simplified obvious thing that is in that theory, me for example, If I had enough money, I may develop coping strategies, create chatbots, hang out with robots or animals or like, coping mechanisms if I ever missed humans?

But like we feel attached to humans and the human game because we need resources. Mommy and daddy or whatever caretaker fed us and made us survive, I don't know if there is a FUNDAMENTAL need for human connection, or if it is just something that is there, and we are just used to. I've been a "hikikomori" and didn't wanna interact with no one for years at a time at my "worst times", if I could have like, not starved, I might've just chosen that, some humans can be cool and all, but all this is overrated. Humans hurt each other a ton. What you need is to fullfill urges, like the urge of sex, food, the appearance of "im used to this sooooooo"

If you had enough food and shelter and didn't need other people society would transform really fucking quick.
 
PI3.14

PI3.14

what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider
Oct 4, 2024
242
This might partially apply to some but not all of us.
 
D

Daphne

Student
Jul 23, 2025
184
Not belonging is huge. There's not belonging to specific groups like the family unit or friendship circle. Then there's feeling like an outcast in general, maybe because of age, disability, deformity, or just different in some way.

And I agree with the reply mentioning feeling like a burden could be at odds with not having social supports. My family, whom I would do anything for once upon a time, either have passed away or discarded me. So definitely not a burden to them. Am I a burden to society? No because there is no social contract in the U.S. It's each man/woman for themself. Am I a burden to myself? Absolutely. I know my options for survival are running out and when you're an outcast, good luck finding help even through the agencies/charities that are supposed to provide it.
 
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lil dwayne

lil dwayne

Member
Jul 20, 2025
40
Some good points but its not all of it IMO. Some peoples brain chemistry is just... broken.
 
LaVieEnRose

LaVieEnRose

Angelic
Jul 23, 2022
4,435
His father killed himself if I recall so I can understand if the desire to understand and neatly square his father's action away consumed his work. Maybe these conditions perfectly fit his father's case.

The first point is probably pretty common. It's probably very common in unhappy people period, whether suicide results or not.

I don't think the second one is nearly as common, definitely not to the point of being considered a universal.

Anyway there is no way any one theory can adequately explain every single suicide. Especially not one focused on entirely interpersonal factors. For some people, chronic pain is the primary driving factor behind wanting to die.
 
brokenspirited

brokenspirited

Great Mage
May 20, 2025
494
Honestly, I've avoided talking about Joiner's Theory publicly because there are a lot of kids on here who I think don't need to learn how to acquire the capacity to enact lethal harm.
Minors are banned from registering. You can speak freely.
 

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