what pisses me off about people who say suicide is "irrational"

[ontheotherside]

You often hear about how suicide is inherently irrational. I completely reject this.

To be clear, I think that suicide can be irrational. I think that people can decide to commit suicide and those are bad decisions for them - I don't mean bad in the sense of a bad outcome but making a decision without a proper consideration of the situation and the reasons to commit (or not to commit) suicide. Teenagers who commit suicide because of a breakup are probably acting irrationally (because such individuals are likely to feel significantly better after the passing of a certain amount of time).

But, I reject the idea that suicide is inherently irrational - that seems patently absurd to me. I think that there can be good reasons to commit suicide - in the most extreme case, I think that it is probably rational for people with intense permanent physical pain to commit suicide. That is not, of course, to say that anyone should be forced to commit suicide.

Psychologists often say that suicidal people have a "chemical imbalance" in the brain. And perhaps that is true. But if a person's life is awful, wouldn't it be odd if there weren't a chemical imbalance in our brain? Why is a suicidal person with a chemical imbalance any more irrational than a person who has a change of brain state because light of the blue wavelength hitting their retina causes them to see "blue"?

This is what pisses me off about people who say that suicide is inherently irrational.

 

[outrider567]

Nothing irrational about it in my case--You spend half your life with someone and then they pass away in 4 days--Shock and depression, loneliness and despair logically lead to Suicide

 

[Damnation]

Suggesting that suicide is irrational is like suggesting that living is inherently rational.
Is it really rational to live even though you know you're going to die eventually, no matter what you do? It's not like dividing by zero, you're not defying any sort of logic or natural laws by dying. Our survival instincts aren't rational, they're coincidence. Things with traits that give them a higher chance to survive tend to survive. Rocks can't make babies, so they don't.

Take reproduction for example.
A person with no desire to reproduce will probably never reproduce, and therefore never pass on their genes or create more people with no desire to reproduce.
People who do have the desire to reproduce will probably go on to reproduce, pass on their genes, and probably create more people with the desire to reproduce.
There's nothing inherently right or wrong about either of these, it's just how it is. A lot of people greatly value life, survival, and reproduction because anything with those traits will inevitably create more things with those traits. It's not like they're more common because they're better, they're more common because that's the logical outcome. Dropping a lit match in a forest sets the trees ablaze, but dropping the match in a lake just puts it out. Go figure.

You can add your own meaning to any of these things, and any meaning you attribute has as much or as little value as you want, but... In the grand scheme of things, none of that meaning is inherent; it's personal.

Disclaimer: I'm just saying all of this under the assumption that there's nothing more to life, like gods and spirituality. I wish I could believe there's more.

 

[TAW122]

You often hear about how suicide is inherently irrational. I completely reject this.

To be clear, I think that suicide can be irrational. I think that people can decide to commit suicide and those are bad decisions for them - I don't mean bad in the sense of a bad outcome but making a decision without a proper consideration of the situation and the reasons to commit (or not to commit) suicide. Teenagers who commit suicide because of a breakup are probably acting irrationally (because such individuals are likely to feel significantly better after the passing of a certain amount of time).

But, I reject the idea that suicide is inherently irrational - that seems patently absurd to me. I think that there can be good reasons to commit suicide - in the most extreme case, I think that it is probably rational for people with intense permanent physical pain to commit suicide. That is not, of course, to say that anyone should be forced to commit suicide.

Psychologists often say that suicidal people have a "chemical imbalance" in the brain. And perhaps that is true. But if a person's life is awful, wouldn't it be odd if there weren't a chemical imbalance in our brain? Why is a suicidal person with a chemical imbalance any more irrational than a person who has a change of brain state because light of the blue wavelength hitting their retina causes them to see "blue"?

This is what pisses me off about people who say that suicide is inherently irrational.

Well said, this is always a problem when it comes to discussion about CTB especially with pro-lifers. They always see CTB as an irrational act, which is a catch-22. I believe if there is a way for most people to see CTB as an (ultimate) act of free will rather than a medical issue or irrational act, this would pave way to legalized voluntary euthanasia and perhaps even a drop in suicide rates (people less likely to CTB knowing that they aren't being forced to live and that CTB is not always an irrational action but could be rational).

 

[Soulless Angel]

I honestly think some people forget we will all die one day regardless, I mean there are people who have their bodies frozen in a desperate attempt to one day walk this earth, Now that is insane behavior.
Its mentality's like this that I believe is why some think suicide is irrational, they think we should be loving every moment of breathing, no matter what trauma has bestowed us, to them suicide is simply not an option,
I have read some countries are now allowing the option of human euthanasia, due to the fact that very slowly deep in the medical world they are starting to wake up to the fact that sometimes, just sometimes, it's easier to allow a human their own choice then force them into staying alive

 

[Forever Sleep]

Yes, I totally agree. I think our 'default' primal brains are definitely set to survive. That's just how they've been made. I don't think that part of our brain has the capability to rationalise though. It just does things on instinct. We don't think about breathing, or controlling our heartbeat. We automatically try to avoid danger if presented with it.

I suppose people say suicide is an irrational act because it goes against the natural order of self preservation. Still- we're not always expected to follow our 'natural instincts.' For some in fact- there are social and religious laws to try and stop us acting on!

It's our conscious brains that do the thinking bit. It's that element of us that decides whether things are rational or not. That part of us is surely highly subjective. It would be irrational for me to try and become a brain surgeon- I simply don't have the brains. It's irrational to become blindingly drunk and put yourself in risk. Why is it then irrational for some people to feel suicide is their best option when everything in their life is bad?

I suppose it's that whole- but, they could have gotten better if they had survived. It's not an unreasonable argument. Supposedly- many people who survive a suicide attempt go on to feel relieved that the attempt failed. Although- depending on your beliefs of course- it could also be said you can't regret anything when your dead!

Still- it surely HAS to do with probability. There are no guarantees. What's the probability that this person's life will improve? To decide that- rationality surely is a key element! If the problems are physical or mental health- Is there treatment available? Is the treatment effective? Is it affordable? If the problems are situational- Can the person realistically change and improve their situation? Will any of it be enough to make life feel worthwhile for them?

I would have to agree that depression may taint the process. I do believe that we can become trapped in negative cycles of thinking. Still- if therapy, drugs, lifestyle changes etc. don't alter this- or if the person doesn't even wish to go through all that- who's to say that their reality is false? Surely pumping chemicals into someone isn't 'natural'.

I completely agree with you. Some suicides are indeed impulsive. PERHAPS that person would have recovered if they had gone on to live. Still- a great many people here have lived with ideation for a long time. We are continually weighing up our options in a rational manner- considering our own unique curcumstances as well as our own unique capabilities- Do I even have a chance to turn things around? Will the end result be worth the effort?

I think to simply say suicide is an irrational act isn't helpful whatsoever. Plus- the accompanying stipulation that it musn't be thought about or talked about other than- you musn't do it. If they REALLY want to help people- they ought to be asking WHY suicide feels rational to some people.

 

[SamTam33]

I don't understand why it's expected for every single person ever born to have wanted to be born and therefore want to stay alive.

You can't get 100 people to agree on anything, but 100 BILLION were all supposed to agree that life is grand and they want to be a part of it.

Talk about irrational.

If you can't fathom that some people are going to want out - you're an idiot. In the most authentic definition of the word: idiot.

 

[FuneralCry]

I personally don't believe that suicide could ever be irrational in any way, to me saying such a thing would make little sense. All that suicide is, is just voluntarily choosing not to delay our inevitable fate, we are all going to die anyway so it could never be irrational or be something wrong in any way deciding to get to that point earlier. It isn't like anyone is obligated to continue existing anyway. All of the conversation around suicide being 'irrational' is just to further stigmatise the subject of suicide and invalidate the wish to die. I believe that many people who claim that suicide always is 'irrational' are the ones who are blinded by their delusions and accepting the fact that wishing for suicide is a perfectly rational response to existing in this world would shatter their worldview, as it would mean that they have to come to terms with the fact that existence is not always worth enduring. I think that the thought of such a thing scares them.

And anyway, to die solves all problems and there are simply no disadvantages to being dead. In comparison continuing to exist is the ultimate risk as there is no limit as to how much we can suffer if we continue to stay here. In fact I believe that it's the most rational thing to wish to avoid existing and all of the disadvantages that it brings. At least in my case wishing for suicide is simply the natural response to being aware of this world and not seeing existence as being beneficial in any way, I personally only see existence as being a way to cause unnecessary harm to existing beings.
Life really is just a pointless struggle that leads to nothing and nowhere apart from our eventual deterioration and death. I see it as being comforting the thought of finally not existing and being unable to suffer in any way. The thought of non existence will always be perfection to me.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

I honestly think some people forget we will all die one day regardless, I mean there are people who have their bodies frozen in a desperate attempt to one day walk this earth, Now that is insane behavior.
Its mentality's like this that I believe is why some think suicide is irrational, they think we should be loving every moment of breathing, no matter what trauma has bestowed us, to them suicide is simply not an option,
I have read some countries are now allowing the option of human euthanasia, due to the fact that very slowly deep in the medical world they are starting to wake up to the fact that sometimes, just sometimes, it's easier to allow a human their own choice then force them into staying alive

"I honestly think some people forget we will all die one day regardless,"

That's it. They forget that I and every human will die anyway. 130 years from now all 8 billion humans alive now will be dead anyway no matter what. And the older people will agree how fast the decades pass by. Even to the younger people 2022 passed really fast didn't it, the last 5 years?

 

[theboy]

Welcome to the World Pro-Life

 

[cowmeow]

I think the problem with society it's how people want to see everything black and white. The world is, mostly, grey. Some topics may lay on one side or the other, or stay in the middle. But people want to find a truth so they don't respect the opinion of other people, no matter how logical they can be.

In Japan there was a time where suicide was socially acceptable. Nowadays, it's not. We are living in a christian era and people keep arguing over "the sanctity" of life, which pisses me off, because they use that BS to force women to have kids, bring kids with severe disabilities to the wrld all because they care so much 4 life!! THEY DESERVE A CHANGE TO LIVE!!!!
?????? WHAT?
look man, i'm all for progressivism and against eugenics. But why are we allowing this shit to happen? The idea that 'life' is saint and must be protected at all costs it's ruinning f society.

I also agree that some people may chose suicide logically. Let's say Junko Furuta. If you read her story, after some days being tortured, she was begging to die, and even tried to kill herself. I'm sorry, it's a extreme example, very sad, but are people saying that YOU NEVER can choose? I'm not denying you can be PUSHED to do it for WHATEVER reason, i'm just reasoning that depending on the situation you are in, it can be a "solution". A extreme one, maybe, but a solution regardless.

I hate when people say "suicide it's not a solution". Well. IT IS. Or "suicide it's a permanent solution for a temporary problem" which i ALSO disagree. Problems are not temporary. They are a part of life, and even if you resolve one problem, there's going to be another one.

Again. Life can be beautiful and amazing for some people, and i'm for that and hope they keep being happy and never understand the pain of severe depression, but it annoys me when they paint suicidal people as CRAZY and nothing more.

 

[Hurt]

I think that in my case it's rational because it's physical and irreversible. I can't live like this. Health is the more important thing if you don't have good health then you have nothing. I am sorry for everyone here struggling. I wish all of you could live better lives.