Discussion What kind of argument is this?!

[Sprite_Geist]

They say that if you do not stay at home and think that much your life would be better.
They tell me that if I would go to work I would not have time to think what problems I have.

Having a job doesn't stop someone from being suicidal; unless if someones suicidal thoughts are caused by unemployment or lack of stable income for example, but this isn't the case for every individual. There are a lot of people out in the world who do have jobs and still want to end their lives, and in some cases it can actually be the job which makes them feel suicidal - such as with cases of workplace bullying, or that their job doesn't give them a sense of purpose. Once again it all comes down to the fact that everyone has their own different problems/reasons for wanting to commit suicide, and there is no single silver bullet (pun sort of intended!) to solve said problems. This includes "Just getting a job!"

What kind of argument is that? They are telling me, "go and do some mindless work in order to not think what is your position in life compared with other people, like us. We manage to pass the day by doing some useless job, why can't you do it too??"

It is not really an argument; instead a way of avoiding an argument. It's a form of Crab Bucket Theory - "We've gotta suffer so you should too!" You may wish to read more into this theory.

What kind of argument is that when you're aware that other people have betterl ife opportunities in love and work. And then they say: that's life.

"That's life" is similar to the phrase: "Life is unfair. Get used to it." They are both used dismiss the problems and suffering of others. Sure life will never be perfect,
so in a way those phrases are true to an extent. However while we can never have a world that is perfect or completely fair, it still has the potential to be much fairer

The problem with building a better world, though, is that part of doing this would mean changing our behaviour; like trying to be more kind and empathetic to each other. Some people are either unable or just unwilling to change their ways; they prefer the good 'ol Dog Eat Dog game, and so they use the "The world is tough. Just get on with it!" attitude as a way to justify their apathy.

 

[SipSop]

Having a job doesn't stop someone from being suicidal; unless if someones suicidal thoughts are caused by unemployment or lack of stable income for example, but this isn't the case for every individual. There are a lot of people out in the world who do have jobs and still want to end their lives, and in some cases it can actually be the job which makes them feel suicidal - such as with cases of workplace bullying, or that their job doesn't give them a sense of purpose. Once again it all comes down to the fact that everyone has their own different problems/reasons for wanting to commit suicide, and there is no single silver bullet (pun sort of intended!) to solve said problems. This includes "Just getting a job!"



It is not really an argument; instead a way of avoiding an argument. It's a form of Crab Bucket Theory - "We've gotta suffer so you should too!" You may wish to read more into this theory.




"That's life" is similar to the phrase: "Life is unfair. Get used to it." They are both used dismiss the problems and suffering of others. Sure life will never be perfect,
so in a way those phrases are true to an extent. However while we can never have a world that is perfect or completely fair, it still has the potential to be much fairer

The problem with building a better world, though, is that part of doing this would mean changing our behaviour; like trying to be more kind and empathetic to each other. Some people are either unable or just unwilling to change their ways; they prefer the good 'ol Dog Eat Dog game, and so they use the "The world is tough. Just get on with it!" attitude as a way to justify their apathy.

Love your answer. And the pun.

I always been the one who tried to understand the why's and how's. But I felt that I was losing people if I would say: well is not all black and white, sometimes is shades of grey. So I stopped being like this in order to be part of the group more. But I felt always alone because of it.
Did this happened to you?

 

[Sprite_Geist]

Love your answer. And the pun.

I always been the one who tried to understand the why's and how's. But I felt that I was losing people if I would say: well is not all black and white, sometimes is shades of grey. So I stopped being like this in order to be part of the group more. But I felt always alone because of it.
Did this happened to you?

Thank you!

I agree that not everything is black and white.

As for your question: Yes and no. I don't express myself much IRL so I can't comment much on other peoples reactions, but on the few occassions that I have talked to people about the world being grey their attitudes tend to be indifferent mostly. But I have seen others express their views on the world similarly and they were meat with angry responses like "Oh don't be so negative!" and so on.

 

[CoalmineCanary]

What kind of argument is that? They are telling me, "go and do some mindless work in order to not think what is your position in life compared with other people, like us. We manage to pass the day by doing some useless job, why can't you do it too??"

With that logic then everyone who has a job would never ever commit suicide.

 

[SipSop]

selfish self centred but not evil mother marrying a covert pathological narcissist when i was 12. Maniupualation, gaslighting, triangulation, total character assassionation of me at the age of 13 on no valid grounds. My mother always defended him and gaslighted me for years telling me it was just me being petulant.- the result- years of illness, good education never had a job almost 50 trapped in a finincial dependancy on my mother and said husband. I refer to her now by her first name as i divorced myself from her mentallly 12 years ago. I tried my best to undo his brainwashing, unfortunatley her ego cant cope with the cognitive dissonance. It took five years for her to admit that a grown man threatening to disfigure and hospitalize a 13 yr old child was wrong. Even then the blame always comes back to me. I started reading about narcissism and psychopathy by accident back in 2008 and that is when i Understood. However, the crux of the matter is what makes my mother such a perfect match for this man. JPsears on youtube has good material on this. He doenst question why someone has narcissist personlity disorder, he concentrates on why their partners/ victims are often a perfect match for them Seeking approval in life is the worst road to go down.

It is worse when you cannot put your touch on what is wrong. You k ow that something is off, that you are lied in a way when you are gaslighted but is like the message never reaches the other person. Like they can affect you but you cannot affect them. And then you go into the pursuit of knowledge in order to figure out what is really happening.
I've been there.
My experience is that those lies, and slow emotional and mental abuse, are destroying you from inside out. It is a torturous state to be in as they can turn on the heat at will, and the abuse doesn't leave bruises on the outside and everybody else seem to not notice them. It is a dementing state to be in. Real psychological torture.
And after they are not letting you form your own character and strenght they keep you dependent and then is still you fault for not being strong enough to deal with life.
It is a lose- lose situation. You cannot win playing with those guys. Unfortunately some of us had to have them as caregivers.
I am sorry you went through this.

 

[TAW122]

In short, it's a shitty dismissive argument meant to trivialize and invalidate your problems, grievances, and acknowledgement that most of existence sucks. I hate it when people expect others to accept (shitty) reality and/or just do without. Or worse, guilt tripping and fallacy of relative privation (dismissing another's problem by introducing the fact that there are "worse" people out there).

 

[who doesn't matter]

I currently have 3 jobs and they grind me to no end and still, I am here typing on this. So, what sense does "getting a job and getting busy make?"

 

[SipSop]

In short, it's a shitty dismissive argument meant to trivialize and invalidate your problems, grievances, and acknowledgement that most of existence sucks. I hate it when people expect others to accept (shitty) reality and/or just do without. Or worse, guilt tripping and fallacy of relative privation (dismissing another's problem by introducing the fact that there are "worse" people out there).

What you said moved me. As you express your thoughts in so explicit way. Is like I can feel what you feel only by reading it because is so accurate.
To add to this is: just because they have it well they think you have it the same. And they say:"everything will be fine". Even though I appreciate it, they don't know this for sure.

 

[262653]

...you would be too busy and too tired to recognise how low quality your life is.

Pretty much my life from age 8 to 16. Too busy with school nonsense (43 classes per week), and no opportunity to recover from an injury. I often hear this argument, just load yourself with work so that you're too busy to think about problems. Well, it was the shittiest period of my life. It's when I abandoned school I've finally hit the age of reason. I've started processing the important things: what I want from my life, does this or that serve my interests, things that deserve to recieve the highest priority. It's also when I started considering suicide, but for me it was a big relief, in comparison to someone who had a wonderful life, good body constitution, a loving gf, some interests and prospects in life, then started reading philosophy and "looked into the abyss".

Also the "workload" argument seems to be very popular in my country. It's probably hard for some to understand that another person might not share their standards for life. It still annoys me when people are trying to impose their standards on others.

 

[SipSop]

Pretty much my life from age 8 to 16. Too busy with school nonsense (43 classes per week), and no opportunity to recover from an injury. I often hear this argument, just load yourself with work so that you're too busy to think about problems. Well, it was the shittiest period of my life. It's when I abandoned school I've finally hit the age of reason. I've started processing the important things: what I want from my life, does this or that serve my interests, things that deserve to recieve the highest priority. It's also when I started considering suicide, but for me it was a big relief, in comparison to someone who had a wonderful life, good body constitution, a loving gf, some interests and prospects in life, then started reading philosophy and "looked into the abyss".

Also the "workload" argument seems to be very popular in my country. It's probably hard for some to understand that another person might not share their standards for life. It still annoys me when people are trying to impose their standards on others.

You hit the nail in the head for me with that remark about other people having a wonderful life. Because I believe the same thing.
I had some of them at some point in my life but the thing is to have them for long periods of time. Once you have one of them like a gf, you will not give it up but you will look for the next thing but at least that need was satisfied.
Also, I see there is social stigma about people who do not see worth in working a mindless job just for a paycheck. Mostly from people who either want to patronise you or people who have it good already.
You will see that people who are not better off will not criticise you. Only those who are better off.

 

[262653]

You hit the nail in the head for me with that remark about other people having a wonderful life. Because I believe the same thing.
I had some of them at some point in my life but the thing is to have them for long periods of time. Once you have one of them like a gf, you will not give it up but you will look for the next thing but at least that need was satisfied.
Also, I see there is social stigma about people who do not see worth in working a mindless job just for a paycheck. Mostly from people who either want to patronise you or people who have it good already.
You will see that people who are not better off will not criticise you. Only those who are better off.

I'll be more clear with you. When I mentioned "someone who had a wonderful life", I was thinking about a particular case. There was a post on reddit about some guy who claimed to "have it all", then out of curiosity started dabbling in philosophy and became suicidal. I was trying to say that distractions might be effective in some cases but not all of them.

 

[SipSop]

I'll be more clear with you. When I mentioned "someone who had a wonderful life", I was thinking about a particular case. There was a post on reddit about some guy who claimed to "have it all", then out of curiosity started dabbling in philosophy and became suicidal. I was trying to say that distractions might be effective in some cases but not all of them.

This reminds me of a similar case wich I read here some time ago.
I looked for it and I found it.

Death of Sushant Singh Rajput - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The guy had the perfect life. It doesn't mskes sense for somebody like me. But again, I didn't walked in his shoes so I cannot say how he felt and what he experienced.

 

[Superdeterminist]

I'm so relieved to know that I'm not the only one who has these exact thoughts. I don't want anyone to be unhappy, but I just don't understand how most people are content with their lives.

My mom literally answered with "that's life" so many damn times, it makes me sigh and not event want to share anything with her anymore. If that's life then I don't wanna be here for "this life"

That is the crux of it. If I can't change life, then I will take myself off the board. I'll not put up with its horrible torments.

This reminds me of a similar case wich I read here some time ago.
I looked for it and I found it.

Death of Sushant Singh Rajput - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The guy had the perfect life. It doesn't mskes sense for somebody like me. But again, I didn't walked in his shoes so I cannot say how he felt and what he experienced.

His life was definitely not perfect because that's impossible, but I know what you mean, you're using the word loosely, he clearly had a lot going for him. As you said, only he knew what being him was like, the thoughts and feelings he experienced will never fully be comprehended. There really is no escape from suffering even for the most privileged among us, it creeps in from any and all places.