BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
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As per the title.

I've just watched these videos and there seems to be a massive overlap. So much so that I'm not sure what the difference is.





 
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LMFAO FOCKERS

Lost in Aokigahara
May 26, 2019
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BPD is usually a catch all diagnosis for someone who doesnt fit clearly into another diagnosis. However the hallmark of BPD is manipulation. A person with BPD will often try to manipulate people or situations due to their extreme views of idealizing and devaluing individuals. Bipolar is just a straight up mood disorder, with extreme ups and downs. They may not necessarily seek to manipulate during their extreme moods though they may not have a full grip on reality when experiencing extremes.
 
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BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
BPD is usually a catch all diagnosis for someone who doesnt fit clearly into another diagnosis. However the hallmark of BPD is manipulation. A person with BPD will often try to manipulate people or situations due to their extreme views of idealizing and devaluing individuals. Bipolar is just a straight up mood disorder, with extreme ups and downs. They may not necessarily seek to manipulate during their extreme moods though they may not have a full grip on reality when experiencing extremes.
So how would you tell bipolar and BPD apart from one person to another?
 
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LMFAO FOCKERS

Lost in Aokigahara
May 26, 2019
528
So how would you tell bipolar and BPD apart from one person to another?

I had this discussion sometime ago with professionals in the field however it might help to hear from some actually diagnosed on this forum.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/for-those-diagnosed-with-bpd-can-you-tell-me.18972/
 
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Despondent

Despondent

Archangel
Dec 20, 2019
6,777
BPD is usually a catch all diagnosis for someone who doesnt fit clearly into another diagnosis. However the hallmark of BPD is manipulation. A person with BPD will often try to manipulate people or situations due to their extreme views of idealizing and devaluing individuals. Bipolar is just a straight up mood disorder, with extreme ups and downs. They may not necessarily seek to manipulate during their extreme moods though they may not have a full grip on reality when experiencing extremes.
I've heard that they feel extreme emotions and they fear abandonment. Since they fear abandonment so much, the things that they do might come off as manipulative. I wouldn't say everyone with BPD is manipulative. Some with BPD admit that they're manipulative, knowingly.
 
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LMFAO FOCKERS

Lost in Aokigahara
May 26, 2019
528
I've heard that they feel extreme emotions and they fear abandonment. Since they fear abandonment so much, the things that they do might come off as manipulative. I wouldn't say everyone with BPD is manipulative. Some with BPD admit that they're manipulative, knowingly.

I repeated that manipulation aspect from a few licensed professionals in the field.

It might not be that they intend to manipulate for personal gain. However they will manipulate to avoid abandonment and other extreme / imagined fears. Most see manipulation as an attempt to gain something of monetary / physical value however they may manipulate for emotional gain. I have PM'd with a few people on SS diagnosed with BPD and they individually have mentioned that they manipulate. Some however who intend to be in recovery refrain from doing so in order to build mutually trustworthy relationships.
 
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Lilacmoon

Lilacmoon

Beautiful moon, take me away.
Sep 23, 2020
1,308
I have a lot of experience with BPD, having it... but I'm hesitant to comment since I can't say I know all that much about BP. :T we do manipulate but it's not malicious. and with DBT (at least I) was able to learn to internalize a lot of the extreme emotions and overreactions so instead of lashing out externally, I just kill myself inside more and more.
 
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SadGuyWannaDie

Member
Aug 27, 2020
96
The way to tell a BPD from a Bipolar is to use the DSM 6(diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders) to accurately give a prognosis based on the criteria. I am bipolar and I recently had an ugly break up with a BPD. They are vastly different as BPD is a cluster B personality disorder like narcissistic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder. Where bipolar is genetic, there seems to be a genetic predisposition to a cluster B personality disorder though bpd is thought to be formed during the 2 to 3 year old early development stage in a child's life due to trauma and/or neglect. In other words you are born bipolar and bpd is at least believed by the psychiatric community to be caused. The best laymen's analogy I can give is my mood swings were like a rollercoaster over time and my ex's were like a rocketship crashing and falling throughout the same day. There are a lot of marked behaviors in a pwbpd(person with bpd) like idealization of a favorite person during a honeymoon phase and possible later devaluation with narcissistic defense tendencies that are unique to bpd. I know a lot of people can be either and be misdiagnosed because I think they are both sort of a catch all diagnosis for psychiatrists but when you get into the nitty gritty of what makes them both tick they are very different.
 
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Secrets1

Specialist
Nov 18, 2019
359
I don't see how BPD is anymore manipulative than different diagnoses and people on those spectrums. It's the way that manipulation is manifested as an exhausting coping mechanism which garners such reactions imo. Part of the reason is the inherent qualities of BPD. There are supposedly 500 or so official BPD phenotypes which is worth consideration when thinking about diagnoses. I believe much less for bipolar. The DSM is controversial in itself, particularly with BPD diagnoses.

Anyway to put it most simply BPD can be thought of as rapidly cycling bipolar. It's not uncommon for someone with BPD to have the ups and downs of a months long bipolar cycle 5x in a day. In bipolar those ups or down will last days-weeks. BPD it's generally minutes-hours when in the muck
 
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BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
The way to tell a BPD from a Bipolar is to use the DSM 6(diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders) to accurately give a prognosis based on the criteria. I am bipolar and I recently had an ugly break up with a BPD. They are vastly different as BPD is a cluster B personality disorder like narcissistic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorder. Where bipolar is genetic, there seems to be a genetic predisposition to a cluster B personality disorder though bpd is thought to be formed during the 2 to 3 year old early development stage in a child's life due to trauma and/or neglect. In other words you are born bipolar and bpd is at least believed by the psychiatric community to be caused. The best laymen's analogy I can give is my mood swings were like a rollercoaster over time and my ex's were like a rocketship crashing and falling throughout the same day. There are a lot of marked behaviors in a pwbpd(person with bpd) like idealization of a favorite person during a honeymoon phase and possible later devaluation with narcissistic defense tendencies that are unique to bpd. I know a lot of people can be either and be misdiagnosed because I think they are both sort of a catch all diagnosis for psychiatrists but when you get into the nitty gritty of what makes them both tick they are very different.

Very interesting, thank you.
 
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rt1989526

Paragon
Aug 2, 2020
935
I have BPD, and I feel like I am the one who is easily manipulated. But I might just be oblivious to my own manipulation, I don't know. I can definitely pinpoint all the other criteria mentioned applying to me though. The emotions I feel are so intense (99% negative), and the tendency for all or nothing thought patterns (splitting) is something that has done catastrophic damage to my life. I also have comorbid OCD to go along with it.

I can say for sure without any doubt that the medication they put me on did absolutely nothing for my BPD, and now as a result of the side effects of the drugs I am much worse off than before.
 
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Lilacmoon

Lilacmoon

Beautiful moon, take me away.
Sep 23, 2020
1,308
I have BPD, and I feel like I am the one who is easily manipulated. But I might just be oblivious to my own manipulation, I don't know. I can definitely pinpoint all the other criteria mentioned applying to me though. The emotions I feel are so intense (99% negative), and the tendency for all or nothing thought patterns (splitting) is something that has done catastrophic damage to my life. I also have comorbid OCD to go along with it.

I can say for sure without any doubt that the medication they put me on did absolutely nothing for my BPD, and now as a result of the side effects of the drugs I am much worse off than before.
BPD opens up avenues for manipulation on both sides, at least for me. I've been abused because of my desperation for affection/validation/connection, and I've also hurt others in my own extremes too.
 
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cii

cii

"Well, it's groundhog day. Again."
Oct 24, 2020
55
This isn't based on science, just this one experience I had. My Bipolar friend used to go manic and do crazy things, he lost his rationality in a sense and he couldn't really see that he was going through a mood swing until it had subsided a little. But when I (BPD) was going through a mood swing, I knew it was irrational, but I couldn't fight it.

It's like there is a strong water current dragging the bipolar and borderline person through a river, the bipolar swims freely wherever it takes him because he thinks the path is always the right one (whether it's mania or depression), whereas the borderline can see the path is not the right one but can't fight against the water, the current is too strong.

I could be completely wrong though, but that's how I understood the difference when talking to my bipolar friend. Feel free to correct me.
 
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BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
As interesting as it is, I'm not sure why the current focus is on manipulation in BPD individuals. Is manipulation a common thing in BPD?
 
R

rt1989526

Paragon
Aug 2, 2020
935
As interesting as it is, I'm not sure why the current focus is on manipulation in BPD individuals. Is manipulation a common thing in BPD?

It was mentioned several times and I was manipulated into responding.
 
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cii

cii

"Well, it's groundhog day. Again."
Oct 24, 2020
55
As interesting as it is, I'm not sure why the current focus is on manipulation in BPD individuals. Is manipulation a common thing in BPD?
Yes, but it's rarely malicious (if ever) and it's not too hard for the BPD person to control their manipulative behaviour, though it takes practice and conscientiousness. It's pretty much a survival tactic, they needed love as a child to survive but they didn't get any, so they had to learn tricks and about how other people worked to get that love, which they unfortunately still struggled to get.
 
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AngelGirl

AngelGirl

Cat
May 18, 2019
167
I have a lot of experience with BPD, having it... but I'm hesitant to comment since I can't say I know all that much about BP. :T we do manipulate but it's not malicious. and with DBT (at least I) was able to learn to internalize a lot of the extreme emotions and overreactions so instead of lashing out externally, I just kill myself inside more and more.

I agree that it's not malicious, because at least I feel that way. But other people tend to think that just manipulating another person itself is an ill willed act.
When I looked back at my past relationships, I did a lot of gaslighting. I didn't know what gaslighting was at the time, didn't even know a term like that existed, like I was doing it with my natural instinct.
I said alot of things along the lines of "If you leave me I'm gonna kill myself, you know how depressed and suicidal I am" or things like "I'll kill you if you leave me"
I also feel that aggressiveness and hostility rage are the main features of BPD
As per the title.

I've just watched these videos and there seems to be a massive overlap. So much so that I'm not sure what the difference is.







I have both although I personally feel that my BPD is way stronger than my BD. I think I'm at the extreme end of the BPD spectrum.
But my psychiatrist said I have both so I don't know which actions I took were of BPD and which were BD.

I also heard that a decent chunck of people have both BPD and BD.
 
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BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
There seems to be such an overlap that I'm still not all that clear on what the difference is, although I understand from what was said about that BPD is a "cluster B personality disorder" whereas bipolar is a mood disorder (which I knew).

The manipulation in BPD seems to have featured most heavily in this thread so far which I guess if it's a cluster B personality disorder then that may explain it.

I've received a couple of PMs about it so I'll read those now.
 
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sadbadpsychogirl

sadbadpsychogirl

sonofabitch
May 29, 2020
725
there is a huge difference. one is a personality disorder the other is a mood disorder. one is treatable the other is not. also people with bipolar rarely ruin people's lives through crazy making behavior. also bipolar doesn't usually include "splitting" and intense fear of abandonment plus many other disruptive things...
 
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Symbiote

Global Mod
Oct 12, 2020
3,101
The better question would be how is NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and Borderline Personality Disorder are different. Though I think they might be the same because they have the same motives, just that NPDs aren't aware that they have a problem.
 
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Sensei

Sensei

剣道家
Nov 4, 2019
6,336
In other words you are born bipolar [...]

I respectfully disagree. Of two identical twins, one can develop bipolar disorder, while the other one remains healthy. You're not born bipolar, but inherit a gene sequence which increases the risk of developing bipolar disorder.
 
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sadbadpsychogirl

sadbadpsychogirl

sonofabitch
May 29, 2020
725
The better question would be how is NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and Borderline Personality Disorder are different. Though I think they might be the same because they have the same motives, just that NPDs aren't aware that they have a problem.

narcissists are basically sociopaths with a very weak sense of self
 
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Secrets1

Specialist
Nov 18, 2019
359
The better question would be how is NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and Borderline Personality Disorder are different. Though I think they might be the same because they have the same motives, just that NPDs aren't aware that they have a problem.

I'm not up to writing a diatribe but they're hella different and manifest differently over time.
 
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x~Sophia~x

x~Sophia~x

Always give 100% - unless you’re donating blood.
Sep 10, 2020
1,361
As interesting as it is, I'm not sure why the current focus is on manipulation in BPD individuals. Is manipulation a common thing in BPD?
No, manipulation ISN'T a common trait of people with BPD. That is just how the professionals choose to describe us. We are no more manipulative than 'normal' people. We have intense emotions and find it difficult to deal with our emotions. We have intense highs and intense lows, and usually nothing in between. We fear abandonment and rejection and feel we are unlovable, we can push loved ones away because we fear we're going to lose them anyway. Romantic relationships are usually very intense during the honeymoon period, we love with all our heart, and soon after we fall into the 'he/she doesn't love me anymore' phase, when we start to accuse them of seeing other people, not loving us and creating problems that just weren't there. Jealousy and possessiveness are common traits and relationships are often turbulent. We can love you in the morning and hate you in the afternoon (splitting) and we can throw you out, then half an hour later be begging you to come back..
The biggest difference between Bipolar and BPD is the mood swings with BPD can change within an hour, constantly up and down, whereas someone with bipolar will be on a high for weeks, before sinking into a downer. Also, there is medication to treat the highs and lows of bipolar, but none to treat BPD.
The better question would be how is NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) and Borderline Personality Disorder are different. Though I think they might be the same because they have the same motives, just that NPDs aren't aware that they have a problem.
absolute RUBBISH! Bpd and NPD can overlap, but overall, BPD is nothing like NPD. Do some research :ehh:
 
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BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
No, manipulation ISN'T a common trait of people with BPD. That is just how the professionals choose to describe us. We are no more manipulative than 'normal' people. We have intense emotions and find it difficult to deal with our emotions. We have intense highs and intense lows, and usually nothing in between. We fear abandonment and rejection and feel we are unlovable, we can push loved ones away because we fear we're going to lose them anyway. Romantic relationships are usually very intense during the honeymoon period, we love with all our heart, and soon after we fall into the 'he/she doesn't love me anymore' phase, when we start to accuse them of seeing other people, not loving us and creating problems that just weren't there. Jealousy and possessiveness are common traits and relationships are often turbulent. We can love you in the morning and hate you in the afternoon (splitting) and we can throw you out, then half an hour later be begging you to come back..
The biggest difference between Bipolar and BPD is the mood swings with BPD can change within an hour, constantly up and down, whereas someone with bipolar will be on a high for weeks, before sinking into a downer. Also, there is medication to treat the highs and lows of bipolar, but none to treat BPD.

absolute RUBBISH! Bpd and NPD can overlap, but overall, BPD is nothing like NPD. Do some research :ehh:

I was diagnosed with bipolar in 2016 when I was 28. I'm now 31.
When I was told by a psychiatrist that he thinks I have bipolar I will admit I was totally ignorant of what the condition is. To an extent I still am because I don't spend my time researching psychiatric diagnoses or defining myself based on labels.

The only thing I knew at the time was that a school friend's sister who had bipolar had committed suicide a few years earlier, and that she had done so on a psychiatric ward.
For this reason I was very worried when I was told I have the same thing as her. Not sure if I have the same type though.

What I have found out though is that statistically, 20% of people with bipolar commit suicide at some point in their life.
That's 1 in 5 people!
That's massive!

The BPD suicide rate is half that. But 1 in 10 is still very high compared with the general population.
Probably not surprising given that bipolar is a mood disorder whereas BPD is a personality disorder.

I have found this little picture which compares the two:


Bipolar BPD
 
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Life_and_Death

Life_and_Death

Do what's best for you 🕯️ Sometimes I'm stressed
Jul 1, 2020
6,828
yeah the whole...manipulative thing kinda triggered me. bpd.......i go out of my way to not do that shit. to say everyone with bpd is manipulative isnt right. it paints us to be horrible people and thats not always the case. we were emotionally hurt and we're scared shitless is going to happen again. instead of people being scared that we are manipulative they should be more concerned with themselves and being a good friend. its not so much being manipulative as much as it is insecurities and fear. at least for me it is.
 
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_Kaira_

_Kaira_

This Isn't Fine
Oct 2, 2020
826
Having BPD, I can say that my diagnosis constantly shifts on both bpd and bipolar. My recent therapist also agrees im more on the bpd side, as my moods run marathons every day. It's like squishing a lot of the symptoms of bipolar in every day. I've been told my moods change at the drop of a hat, and that my explosive rage is something to be feared. As well, some tell me I'm manipulative. I'm on the fence about that, cause at least I believe I'm not trying to be on purpose. Maybe it's just my lack of knowledge on social ques and poor social skills in general that makes me come across as someone to be avoided. I don't know.

I don't blame others when they've had enough of my shit. I've had enough of my shit as well. Unlike them, it's harder for me to escape it.
 
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BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
I'm really sorry if I've missed something but I don't understand why this thread has focused on manipulation.
Is manipulation in one form or another commonly associated with BPD?
Somebody said that BPD is a cluster B personality type, so this may explain it?
 
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Worthless_nobody

Enlightened
Feb 14, 2019
1,384
No manipulation isn't the "hallmark" trait of bpd. And no we aren't narcissist who "ruin" people's lives. The whole stigma around bpd is sickening. We aren't treated like humans we are just seen as evil and terrible. I feel like people with bpd are actually more likely to get manipulated and end up in relationships with narcissistic people because we are vulnerable. But that's just my opinion.... everyone has DIFFERENT experiences that's the key here. If a bpd person is "manipulative" it's usually just a desperate attempt to avoid abandonment or other things. We are not manipulative on purpose or maliciously...that's a sociopathic narcissist. Bpd people feel and do care it just comes out wrong and lots of anger sometimes but we aren't bad people. We are humans too....bpd sucks though. It's truly a terrible thing to go through daily and then be hated for it.

I copied the traits of borderline from a medical website:

The 9 symptoms of BPD

Fear of abandonment. People with BPD are often terrified of being abandoned or left alone. Even something as innocuous as a loved one arriving home late from work or going away for the weekend may trigger intense fear. This can prompt frantic efforts to keep the other person close. You may beg, cling, start fights, track your loved one's movements, or even physically block the person from leaving. Unfortunately, this behavior tends to have the opposite effect—driving others away.

Unstable relationships. People with BPD tend to have relationships that are intense and short-lived. You may fall in love quickly, believing that each new person is the one who will make you feel whole, only to be quickly disappointed. Your relationships either seem perfect or horrible, without any middle ground. Your lovers, friends, or family members may feel like they have emotional whiplash as a result of your rapid swings from idealization to devaluation, anger, and hate.
Unclear or shifting self-image. When you have BPD, your sense of self is typically unstable. Sometimes you may feel good about yourself, but other times you hate yourself, or even view yourself as evil. You probably don't have a clear idea of who you are or what you want in life. As a result, you may frequently change jobs, friends, lovers, religion, values, goals, or even sexual identity. Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors. If you have BPD, you may engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when you're upset. You may impulsively spend money you can't afford, binge eat, drive recklessly, shoplift, engage in risky sex, or overdo it with drugs or alcohol. These risky behaviors may help you feel better in the moment, but they hurt you and those around you over the long-term.

Self-harm. Suicidal behavior and deliberate self-harm is common in people with BPD. Suicidal behavior includes thinking about suicide, making suicidal gestures or threats, or actually carrying out a suicide attempt. Self-harm encompasses all other attempts to hurt yourself without suicidal intent. Common forms of self-harm include cutting and burning.

Extreme emotional swings. Unstable emotions and moods are common with BPD. One moment, you may feel happy, and the next, despondent. Little things that other people brush off can send you into an emotional tailspin. These mood swings are intense, but they tend to pass fairly quickly (unlike the emotional swings of depression or bipolar disorder), usually lasting just a few minutes or hours. Chronic feelings of emptiness. People with BPD often talk about feeling empty, as if there's a hole or a void inside them. At the extreme, you may feel as if you're "nothing" or "nobody." This feeling is uncomfortable, so you may try to fill the void with things like drugs, food, or sex. But nothing feels truly satisfying.

Explosive anger. If you have BPD, you may struggle with intense anger and a short temper. You may also have trouble controlling yourself once the fuse is lit—yelling, throwing things, or becoming completely consumed by rage. It's important to note that this anger isn't always directed outwards. You may spend a lot of time feeling angry at yourself. Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality. People with BPD often struggle with paranoia or suspicious thoughts about others' motives. When under stress, you may even lose touch with reality—an experience known as dissociation. You may feel foggy, spaced out, or as if you're outside your own body.
 
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Life_and_Death

Life_and_Death

Do what's best for you 🕯️ Sometimes I'm stressed
Jul 1, 2020
6,828
Is manipulation in one form or another commonly associated with BPD?
from my understanding with having a personality disorder and insecurities it can come of as being manipulative even though its not, its basically just the reaction from being hurt a lot and i can personally say with me that its a sensitive spot because i dont think im manipulative but because i have bpd they might assume that i am. although @Raven Moon explained it a lot better lol
 
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