BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
from my understanding with having a personality disorder and insecurities it can come of as being manipulative even though its not, its basically just the reaction from being hurt a lot and i can personally say with me that its a sensitive spot because i dont think im manipulative but because i have bpd they might assume that i am. although @Raven Moon explained it a lot better lol

All this manipulation stuff aside, I think the hardest thing internally most probably for BPD people is this "splitting" thing - thinking someone is amazing one day and then absolutely terrible the next, with no middle ground.
I'm sure the reasons behind this are complex and linked to other things.

I think this is too complex for me to understand.
I probably could, but to be quite frank I'd have to be prepared to sit there for hours and go through so much content.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: x~Sophia~x
Bull in a China shop

Bull in a China shop

Self destruction button in play
Oct 21, 2020
41
I have emotional unstable personality disorder and psychosis, basically my emotions are up and down like a ferking yo -yo and I find myself in a alter with a preacher, they say I'm paranoid but how would they know that me knowing that has proven it
BPD is usually a catch all diagnosis for someone who doesnt fit clearly into another diagnosis. However the hallmark of BPD is manipulation. A person with BPD will often try to manipulate people or situations due to their extreme views of idealizing and devaluing individuals. Bipolar is just a straight up mood disorder, with extreme ups and downs. They may not necessarily seek to manipulate during their extreme moods though they may not have a full grip on reality when experiencing extremes.
THAT IS BULL SHIT
How dare you say that people with BPD manipulate people, who the fuck do you think you are with that assumption
I had this discussion sometime ago with professionals in the field however it might help to hear from some actually diagnosed on this forum.

https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/for-those-diagnosed-with-bpd-can-you-tell-me.18972/
Anyone can say shit it doesn't make it true
 
Last edited:
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: mahakaliSS_MahaDurga, cii and x~Sophia~x
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
I hesistate to post this. Manipulation is a topic I've studied for quite awhile. I've been on both ends, I still find things about myself that I wince at when I become aware. Manipulation is not always intentional. I'm hearing what people are saying about being accused but not intentionally meaning to manipulate, that they don't have nefarious intentions.

I hope to talk about it, then, with a balance of clarity and taking off some of the sting about the subject. It's helping me to adjust my own perspective. No expectation on my part that one will read if they don't want to, nor agree with what I write.



Without blame, just looking at it without value or ethical judgment, manipulation is an oblique rather than direct way of getting needs and wants met.

Rather than asking directly, and risking a no (though a yes could also be likely), one instead tries indirectly to get another to meet their needs, wants, wishes or convenience. They may try to butter them up to get them to want to, such as complimenting, serving, love-bombing, appealing to a desire to serve a greater good, etc. They may dangle a reward they can't or won't deliver, or end up giving a different "reward" than the one that was accepted for agreeing and acting. They may use threats, fear, guilt or obligation. When someone tries to speak to them directly about what they need, want or wish, or about how they're trying to accomplish it, someone who is functioning in a mode of manipulation will deflect attention, evade answering, lie, brandish strong emotion, accuse, etc. They may have developed this style because it wasn't safe in childhood to directly ask, or to even have wants or needs, let alone take responsibility for getting them met, and/or they may have had an example of someone who functioned this way.

Basically, manipulation says, "Don't look at the subject, look at everything else. The issue is not the issue."

Gaslighting, which is extreme manipulation that extends to an enviroment and to internal executive control, says, "You didn't see what you saw, hear what you heard, or feel what you felt. Doubt yourself. I'll tell you what you actually see, hear and feel. I've got this, you don't. I'm the one who can do that, or someone else other than you and I can do that."

Manipulation seeks to control for an outcome without being overtly controlling, without putting one's hands on top of another's and steering, instead trying to influence them in what direction to steer and to what destination; it may be quite a winding ride, and the destination may change several times, or be quite a surprise for the driver. Gaslighting seeks to control the other person by getting them to separate from their perceptions, from their self. Gaslighting says you're not even in a car, and you're not heading where you were heading, and that's not a foot on the pedal, and you don't feel stressed about what's happening, and I'm not even talking right now; there is something wrong with you and your perceptions."

Gaslighting may also be a way of functioning. The person themselves may also be disconnected from reality and their own perceptions, and perhaps was somehow assaulted for perceiving reality, or it could have been too overwhelming to do so if they were in danger and had no way to protect themselves. In other words, the one who gaslights may themselves may be living a gaslit experience and want another to agree to that experience. They can get very stressed out if someone disagrees with the version they're experiencing, because reality feels like...gaslighting.

Like I said, someone may not know mainpulation (or the extreme, gaslighting) is how they function to get their needs and wants met, so I can imagine it really hurts when someone accuses them of manipulation of any kind. It may feel like being gaslit or condemned when there were no ill intentions.

But it also hurts for the person who is having something wooed, coerced or stolen from them, or who is experiencing and accepting reality, rather than being given the option to make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to give or do something, and whether or not they want to participate in an alternative version of reality.




One kind of manipulation in particular that's really difficult to be on the receiving end of (not saying it's easy for the one who does it either) is when one offers something to another, the other rejects the offer, and then takes it in a different way than the route that was offered; just because it was offered doesn't mean it can be taken in any way. It it's like inviting someone to come watch TV with you and you offer to give them a house key to come in for that purpose, and they turn down the key, and they say they don't want to watch TV, or don't acknowledge the offer. Later, you come home and find them waiting for you in front of the TV with snacks, and they'd crawled in a window you forgot to close. Watching TV together is not the issue, the issue is the break-in. Sometimes manipulation is a break-in, and yet the one who broke in makes it seem as if the other person consented to it. "But you said we could watch TV together! And look, there's snacks! And, hey, did you know you forgot to shut the window? Thank goodness I was here to protect your stuff until you got back! Oh good, the program's on. Sit down (on your own couch)! Have a slice of pizza! I think it's you're favorite!" Stopping and saying, "Whoa, this is not okay" usually results in the other person going on the defensive and using tactics like brandishing strong emotion, taking back the "gifts," DARVOing (defending, accusing, then reversing the roles of victim and offender so they are now the victim), telling a revised version of their actions and/or the offer and how it was received (gaslighting), storming off, threatening to cut off love, friendship or support, threatening suicide, etc. It feels like shit to be on the receiving end of the break-in and all that follows, and if one gives pity for this behavior, they surrender their boundaries, autonomy, and integrity (wholeness) so that the other person will feel better, will be soothed, will stay in the relationship...and it gives them permission to keep breaking in. The one who breaks in may not know how to accept a key or an offer of doing something together, and sincerely, that sucks...but the other person has to pay a high cost to do what they offered and had rejected or not acknowledged. The one who broke in didn't feel safe to directly accept a direct offer (or changed their minds and didn't directly say so), and then acted in unsafe ways to indirectly "take advantage" of the offer and enjoy the benefits of the relationship.


I hope this contributed something to the conversation. It's been interesting to read and I've been learning a lot.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Hugs
  • Love
Reactions: demuic, Ghost2211, Dr Iron Arc and 2 others
BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
I hesistate to post this. Manipulation is a topic I've studied for quite awhile. I've been on both ends, I still find things about myself that I wince at when I become aware. Manipulation is not always intentional. I'm hearing what people are saying about being accused but not intentionally meaning to manipulate, that they don't have nefarious intentions.

I hope to talk about it, then, with a balance of clarity and taking off some of the sting about the subject. It's helping me to adjust my own perspective. No expectation on my part that one will read if they don't want to, nor agree with what I write.



Without blame, just looking at it without value or ethical judgment, manipulation is an oblique rather than direct way of getting needs and wants met.

Rather than asking directly, and risking a no (though a yes could also be likely), one instead tries indirectly to get another to meet their needs, wants, wishes or convenience. They may try to butter them up to get them to want to, such as complimenting, serving, love-bombing, appealing to a desire to serve a greater good, etc. They may dangle a reward they can't or won't deliver, or end up giving a different "reward" than the one that was accepted for agreeing and acting. They may use threats, fear, guilt or obligation. When someone tries to speak to them directly about what they need, want or wish, or about how they're trying to accomplish it, someone who is functioning in a mode of manipulation will deflect attention, evade answering, lie, brandish strong emotion, accuse, etc. They may have developed this style because it wasn't safe in childhood to directly ask, or to even have wants or needs, let alone take responsibility for getting them met, and/or they may have had an example of someone who functioned this way.

Basically, manipulation says, "Don't look at the subject, look at everything else. The issue is not the issue."

Gaslighting, which is extreme manipulation that extends to an enviroment and to internal executive control, says, "You didn't see what you saw, hear what you heard, or feel what you felt. Doubt yourself. I'll tell you what you actually see, hear and feel. I've got this, you don't. I'm the one who can do that, or someone else other than you and I can do that."

Manipulation seeks to control for an outcome without being overtly controlling, without putting one's hands on top of another's and steering, instead trying to influence them in what direction to steer and to what destination; it may be quite a winding ride, and the destination may change several times, or be quite a surprise for the driver. Gaslighting seeks to control the other person by getting them to separate from their perceptions, from their self. Gaslighting says you're not even in a car, and you're not heading where you were heading, and that's not a foot on the pedal, and you don't feel stressed about what's happening, and I'm not even talking right now; there is something wrong with you and your perceptions."

Gaslighting may also be a way of functioning. The person themselves may also be disconnected from reality and their own perceptions, and perhaps was somehow assaulted for perceiving reality, or it could have been too overwhelming to do so if they were in danger and had no way to protect themselves. In other words, the one who gaslights may themselves may be living a gaslit experience and want another to agree to that experience. They can get very stressed out if someone disagrees with the version they're experiencing, because reality feels like...gaslighting.

Like I said, someone may not know mainpulation (or the extreme, gaslighting) is how they function to get their needs and wants met, so I can imagine it really hurts when someone accuses them of manipulation of any kind. It may feel like being gaslit or condemned when there were no ill intentions.

But it also hurts for the person who is having something wooed, coerced or stolen from them, or who is experiencing and accepting reality, rather than being given the option to make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to give or do something, and whether or not they want to participate in an alternative version of reality.




One kind of manipulation in particular that's really difficult to be on the receiving end of (not saying it's easy for the one who does it either) is when one offers something to another, they reject the offer, and then take it in a different way than the route that was offered; just because it was offered doesn't mean it can be taken in any way. It it's like inviting someone to come watch TV with you and you ofer to give them a house key to come in for that purpose, and they turn down the key, and they say they don't want to watch TV, or don't acknowledge the offer. Later, you come home and find them waiting for you in front of the TV with snacks, and they'd crawled in a window you forgot to close. Watching TV together is not the issue, the issue is the break-in. Sometimes manipulation is a break-in, and yet the one who broke in makes it seem as if the other person consented to it. "But you said we could watch TV together! And look, there's snacks! And, hey, did you know you forgot to shut the window? Thank goodness I was here to protect your stuff until you got back! Oh good, the program's on. Sit down (on your own couch)! Have a slice of pizza! I think it's you're favorite!" Stopping and saying, "Whoa, this is not okay" usually results in the other person going on the defensive and using tactics like brandishing strong emotion, taking back the "gifts," DARVOing (defending, accusing, then reversing the roles of victim and offender so they are now the victim), telling a revised version of their actions and/or the offer and how it was received (gaslighting), storming off, threatening to cut off love, friendship or support, threatening suicide, etc. It feels like shit to be on the receiving end of the break-in and all that follows, and if one gives pity for this behavior, they surrender their boundaries, autonomy, and integrity (wholeness) so that the other person will feel better, will be soothed, will stay in the relationship...and it gives them permission to keep breaking in. The one who breaks in may not know how to accept a key or an offer of doing something together, and sincerely, that sucks...but the other person has to pay a high cost to do what they offered and had rejected or not acknowledged. The one who broke in didn't feel safe to directly accept a direct offer (or changed their minds and didn't directly say so), and then acted in unsafe ways to indirectly "take advantage" of the offer and enjoy the benefits of the relationship.


I hope this contributed something to the conversation. It's been interesting to read and I've been learning a lot.
Thanks for your post.

Again I'm unsure why manipulation has been the topic that this thread has focused on regarding BPD.
I'm guessing because it's a cluster B personality as somebody else said and so it comes up a lot.
 
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
Thanks for your post.

Again I'm unsure why manipulation has been the topic that this thread has focused on regarding BPD.
I'm guessing because it's a cluster B personality as somebody else said and so it comes up a lot.

Well, I think it's a way of functioning. If the person with BPD has a fear of abandonment, then they're going to do what they can in response to that fear. I think the long example I gave at the end of my comment could easily be an example of a BPD-style interaction. Getting needs, wants and wishes met may end up in abandonment. Having needs, wants and wishes may end up in abandonment. I know splitting is a particular interest for you, and if I ponder that, maybe all love or all hate is about expectations for meeting needs, wants and wishes, and also resentment about ability to meet them -- "fuck you for being so unachievably great, I love you for being so unchievably great because no one else is and we need that, fuck you for failing so abominably, I love you please don't fail me so abominably. I'm going to push you so so hard for you to prove you won't abandon me, and I hate you for what I'm doing, for being able to take it, for being such a piece of shit that you take it when you're supposed to be my hero, etc." And tied in with that, manipulating to maintain that unbalanced balance. I don't know. Maybe. I don't have BPD but I had a best friend and sometimes roommate who was a recovering addict/alcoholic and had a lot of BPD behaviors, both of which, I think, contributed to a looooot of manipulation on her part, along with insecurity. She is an amazing human, and calls herself broken. Another field calls BPD splitting the piteous waif: "only you can fix me, no one can fix me, you didn't fix me and I hate you," then later come back and, "I was wrong, only you can fix me," and the cycle keeps going. Someone codependent is all over that ish! :pfff:

Another cluster B type is narcissistic, which has been brought up in this thread. The primary fear that directs functioning is being inferior. Then the behaviors, I think, double down because admitting error is perceived as inferiority. How to not be inferior? Be superior, even dominate. Others can't think or do for themselves, so the door is open for manipulative actions. And perhaps manipulating and gaslighting the self, because reality and being human are inferior experiences. In the example I gave, someone who operates narcissistically might think the offer was inferior, or made them seem needy and inferior, while breaking in is superior, makes the whole experience better, and of course, pizza. Don't like it? You've just poked at a wound and there will be hell to pay. Only the narcissist gets to decide the rules for them as well as for you. Feed their superiority, or pay the price for intentionally starving them.

Another cluster b personality type, antisocial, has an underlying fear of being controlled/overpowered. They're never going to give someone a chance to control or overpower them, so they don't allow for equality or reciprocity unless it's part of a game they plan to win. In the example, the antisocial wants to steal from the house, wants to steal from the person's self. There is nothing they won't try to steal inside or outside. If the person agrees to the break-in, then next time they'll ask for a key. The power is in keeping the other off balance and destroying them and all they hold dear because they are a competitor and enemy in life; everyone is. The person who functions antisocially wants to leave empty husks, and enjoy the process. If they are ever convinced to stop doing it, it's for their benefit, not because they've changed how they view others. Maybe it's possible to do that, but I think such hope can be used as a weapon.

I think maybe folks who function with BPD want to "get better," folks who function with narcissism can't accept they aren't "better than," and folks who function as antisocial want to "get the better of."

Those are my musings, sans the compassionate effort I put into considering BPD. I acknowledge that. It wasn't an intentional covert slam.



Edit: oh yes, the cluster b histrionic personality type fears being ignored. They broke into the house because it was a surprise, way better than the original offer (but really because they had a better offer, and since then haven't heard from you). They may have bought you a glam couch, too, and dumped your old one. You're supposed to appreciate it (them)! Instagram time!!! Smile on that couch with that pizza -- oops, yeah, I edited you out of our selfie because you had cheese on your face, but don't worry, the couch looks great and everyone can tell from my smile how comfy it is and how delish is the pizza! Hey can you pause the movie? I just got a notification from a huge influencer.

Wants to "look better and be looked at."
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: watsonsmith
x~Sophia~x

x~Sophia~x

Always give 100% - unless you’re donating blood.
Sep 10, 2020
1,361
I hesistate to post this. Manipulation is a topic I've studied for quite awhile. I've been on both ends, I still find things about myself that I wince at when I become aware. Manipulation is not always intentional. I'm hearing what people are saying about being accused but not intentionally meaning to manipulate, that they don't have nefarious intentions.

I hope to talk about it, then, with a balance of clarity and taking off some of the sting about the subject. It's helping me to adjust my own perspective. No expectation on my part that one will read if they don't want to, nor agree with what I write.



Without blame, just looking at it without value or ethical judgment, manipulation is an oblique rather than direct way of getting needs and wants met.

Rather than asking directly, and risking a no (though a yes could also be likely), one instead tries indirectly to get another to meet their needs, wants, wishes or convenience. They may try to butter them up to get them to want to, such as complimenting, serving, love-bombing, appealing to a desire to serve a greater good, etc. They may dangle a reward they can't or won't deliver, or end up giving a different "reward" than the one that was accepted for agreeing and acting. They may use threats, fear, guilt or obligation. When someone tries to speak to them directly about what they need, want or wish, or about how they're trying to accomplish it, someone who is functioning in a mode of manipulation will deflect attention, evade answering, lie, brandish strong emotion, accuse, etc. They may have developed this style because it wasn't safe in childhood to directly ask, or to even have wants or needs, let alone take responsibility for getting them met, and/or they may have had an example of someone who functioned this way.

Basically, manipulation says, "Don't look at the subject, look at everything else. The issue is not the issue."

Gaslighting, which is extreme manipulation that extends to an enviroment and to internal executive control, says, "You didn't see what you saw, hear what you heard, or feel what you felt. Doubt yourself. I'll tell you what you actually see, hear and feel. I've got this, you don't. I'm the one who can do that, or someone else other than you and I can do that."

Manipulation seeks to control for an outcome without being overtly controlling, without putting one's hands on top of another's and steering, instead trying to influence them in what direction to steer and to what destination; it may be quite a winding ride, and the destination may change several times, or be quite a surprise for the driver. Gaslighting seeks to control the other person by getting them to separate from their perceptions, from their self. Gaslighting says you're not even in a car, and you're not heading where you were heading, and that's not a foot on the pedal, and you don't feel stressed about what's happening, and I'm not even talking right now; there is something wrong with you and your perceptions."

Gaslighting may also be a way of functioning. The person themselves may also be disconnected from reality and their own perceptions, and perhaps was somehow assaulted for perceiving reality, or it could have been too overwhelming to do so if they were in danger and had no way to protect themselves. In other words, the one who gaslights may themselves may be living a gaslit experience and want another to agree to that experience. They can get very stressed out if someone disagrees with the version they're experiencing, because reality feels like...gaslighting.

Like I said, someone may not know mainpulation (or the extreme, gaslighting) is how they function to get their needs and wants met, so I can imagine it really hurts when someone accuses them of manipulation of any kind. It may feel like being gaslit or condemned when there were no ill intentions.

But it also hurts for the person who is having something wooed, coerced or stolen from them, or who is experiencing and accepting reality, rather than being given the option to make an informed decision as to whether or not they want to give or do something, and whether or not they want to participate in an alternative version of reality.




One kind of manipulation in particular that's really difficult to be on the receiving end of (not saying it's easy for the one who does it either) is when one offers something to another, the other rejects the offer, and then takes it in a different way than the route that was offered; just because it was offered doesn't mean it can be taken in any way. It it's like inviting someone to come watch TV with you and you offer to give them a house key to come in for that purpose, and they turn down the key, and they say they don't want to watch TV, or don't acknowledge the offer. Later, you come home and find them waiting for you in front of the TV with snacks, and they'd crawled in a window you forgot to close. Watching TV together is not the issue, the issue is the break-in. Sometimes manipulation is a break-in, and yet the one who broke in makes it seem as if the other person consented to it. "But you said we could watch TV together! And look, there's snacks! And, hey, did you know you forgot to shut the window? Thank goodness I was here to protect your stuff until you got back! Oh good, the program's on. Sit down (on your own couch)! Have a slice of pizza! I think it's you're favorite!" Stopping and saying, "Whoa, this is not okay" usually results in the other person going on the defensive and using tactics like brandishing strong emotion, taking back the "gifts," DARVOing (defending, accusing, then reversing the roles of victim and offender so they are now the victim), telling a revised version of their actions and/or the offer and how it was received (gaslighting), storming off, threatening to cut off love, friendship or support, threatening suicide, etc. It feels like shit to be on the receiving end of the break-in and all that follows, and if one gives pity for this behavior, they surrender their boundaries, autonomy, and integrity (wholeness) so that the other person will feel better, will be soothed, will stay in the relationship...and it gives them permission to keep breaking in. The one who breaks in may not know how to accept a key or an offer of doing something together, and sincerely, that sucks...but the other person has to pay a high cost to do what they offered and had rejected or not acknowledged. The one who broke in didn't feel safe to directly accept a direct offer (or changed their minds and didn't directly say so), and then acted in unsafe ways to indirectly "take advantage" of the offer and enjoy the benefits of the relationship.


I hope this contributed something to the conversation. It's been interesting to read and I've been learning a lot.

There are around 256 different combinations of BPD, and there is also a spectrum ranging from mild BPD to complex BPD... please don't even try to suggest that everyone with a BPD diagnosis is manipulative. Stop generalising ! There are many forms of manipulative behaviours, and even people who don't have a mental health diagnosis can be manipulative. I don't understand what this labelling people with BPD as manipulators is all about. It's like suggesting that everyone with BPD self harms or is suicidal. Every single one of us are unique with 5,6,7,8 or 9 of the traits, and varying degrees of severity... and manipulative behaviour is NOT one of the 9 traits.
 
  • Like
  • Wow
  • Love
Reactions: sourpink, Frew, watsonsmith and 3 others
BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
There are around 256 different combinations of BPD, and there is also a spectrum ranging from mild BPD to complex BPD... please don't even try to suggest that everyone with a BPD diagnosis is manipulative. Stop generalising ! There are many forms of manipulative behaviours, and even people who don't have a mental health diagnosis can be manipulative. I don't understand what this labelling people with BPD as manipulators is all about. It's like suggesting that everyone with BPD self harms or is suicidal. Every single one of us are unique with 5,6,7,8 or 9 of the traits, and varying degrees of severity... and manipulative behaviour is NOT one of the 9 traits.

256 different combinations of what?
 
mahakaliSS_MahaDurga

mahakaliSS_MahaDurga

Visionary
Apr 2, 2020
2,404
There are around 256 different combinations of BPD, and there is also a spectrum ranging from mild BPD to complex BPD... please don't even try to suggest that everyone with a BPD diagnosis is manipulative. Stop generalising ! There are many forms of manipulative behaviours, and even people who don't have a mental health diagnosis can be manipulative. I don't understand what this labelling people with BPD as manipulators is all about. It's like suggesting that everyone with BPD self harms or is suicidal. Every single one of us are unique with 5,6,7,8 or 9 of the traits, and varying degrees of severity... and manipulative behaviour is NOT one of the 9 traits.

This person also posted this emoji while describing people with BPD: :pfff:

I am sure glad that people find our problems amusing and hilarious, on a suicide forum, of all places. A place where we came precisely because we struggle with dealing with our emotional ups and downs that make us want to die. We are the most stigmatized group in the sphere of mental disorders. I can hardly fathom someone making fun of problems the people with mood disorders face, but BPD's are a free target for everyone.
 
  • Love
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: sourpink, watsonsmith, cii and 3 others
x~Sophia~x

x~Sophia~x

Always give 100% - unless you’re donating blood.
Sep 10, 2020
1,361
256 different combinations of what?
It means that not everyone with BPD has the same symptoms/traits. There are 9 traits and for somebody to be diagnosed with BPD, they must have at least 5 of the 9 traits. Some will have 5 traits, some 6, some 7... and so on. With that said, it means that taking the 9 traits into consideration, there are 256 variations of BPD.
This person also posted this emoji while describing people with BPD: :pfff:

I am sure glad that people find our problems amusing and hilarious, on a suicide forum, of all places. A place where we came precisely because we struggle with dealing with our emotional ups and downs that make us want to die. We are the most stigmatized group in the sphere of mental disorders. I can hardly fathom someone making fun of problems the people with mood disorders face, but BPD's are a free target for everyone.

I agree, it's shocking!! :ehh:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: mahakaliSS_MahaDurga
BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
It means that not everyone with BPD has the same symptoms/traits. There are 9 traits and for somebody to be diagnosed with BPD, they must have at least 5 of the 9 traits. Some will have 5 traits, some 6, some 7... and so on. With that said, it means that taking the 9 traits into consideration, there are 256 variations of BPD.

Ahh very good, somebody knows their factorials :wink:
 
  • Like
Reactions: x~Sophia~x
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
There are around 256 different combinations of BPD, and there is also a spectrum ranging from mild BPD to complex BPD... please don't even try to suggest that everyone with a BPD diagnosis is manipulative. Stop generalising ! There are many forms of manipulative behaviours, and even people who don't have a mental health diagnosis can be manipulative. I don't understand what this labelling people with BPD as manipulators is all about. It's like suggesting that everyone with BPD self harms or is suicidal. Every single one of us are unique with 5,6,7,8 or 9 of the traits, and varying degrees of severity... and manipulative behaviour is NOT one of the 9 traits.

I must not have been clear enough, I'm glad to clarify. Im the post of mine that you quoted, Iwas addressing the topic of manipulation that was repeatedly brought up in the thread. I listened to how people felt hurt or harmed by the accusation. So I stepped back and looked at it from what I meant to be a broader, more inclusive perspective, rather than exclusionary and condemning. I focused on manipulation in a generic way, I didn't mention BPD. It was from a stance that agrees with your statement, "There are many forms of manipulative behaviours, and even people who don't have a mental health diagnosis can be manipulative." I was trying to alleviate and maybe even stop some of the stinging folks were feeling about manipulation being discussed, not sting more.

Did that make my intentions and words clearer? Did it alleviate your concern that I was directing my comment at BPD and generalizing about BPD?
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: mahakaliSS_MahaDurga and x~Sophia~x
G

Gentleman

For ethics, there is only suffering and its cure.
Sep 10, 2020
65
Borderline Personality Disorder is a disorder of personality characterized by improper/abusive behavior in everyday relationships. Thus people with this disorder find it hard to socialize.

Bipolar disorder is a mood disorder. Mainly characterized by EXTREME SWINGS between EXTREME mania/happiness and depression.

Both disorders are different for everyone but the main premises remain.
 
  • Hmph!
Reactions: sourpink, mahakaliSS_MahaDurga and x~Sophia~x
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
This person also posted this emoji while describing people with BPD: :pfff:

Ah, another misunderstanding I'm glad to clarify. I'm the person (@I'm fragile, since you also seem to have had this misunderstanding about my use of the emoji). I used the emoji in reference codependent folks, not BPD. I was laughing at myself being codependent.

The codependent response I was laughing at myself for was specifically in regard to splitting, not to all BPD. It's an interactive experience for the one who splits and the one who is split; a person who is codependent, which I've struggled with the effects of and continue to heal from with effort, wants to be the hero or the fixer, and splitting can be a magnet for troublesome codependent personality/behavior. Codependent behavior has negative effects on others, too, it's a form of other-control or other-regulation to try to regulate the self. Fixing and rescuing behaviors seek an object, someone to fix and rescue. It makes things worse rather than better. I have enough awareness of myself that I can laugh at myself while I keep trying to improve. My codependent behavior with an intimate friend who had splitting behavior was a hot mess!
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: Lilacmoon and mahakaliSS_MahaDurga
mahakaliSS_MahaDurga

mahakaliSS_MahaDurga

Visionary
Apr 2, 2020
2,404
Ah, another misunderstanding I'm glad to clarify. I'm the person. I used the emoji in reference codependent folks, not BPD. I was laughing at myself being codependent.

The codependent response I was laughing at myself for was specifically in regard to splitting, not to all BPD. It's an interactive experience for the one who splits and the one who is split; a person who is codependent, which I've struggled with the effects of and continue to heal from with effort, wants to be the hero or the fixer, and splitting can be a magnet for troublesome codependent personality/behavior. Codependent behavior has negative effects on others, too, it's a form of other-control or other-regulation to try to regulate the self. Fixing and rescuing behaviors seek an object, someone to fix and rescue. It makes things worse rather than better. I have enough awareness of myself that I can laugh at myself while I keep trying to improve. My codependent behavior with an intimate friend who had splitting behavior was a hot mess!
Thank you for clarifying. I am also codependent, it is a pattern that is really hard to unlearn, regardless how dysfunctional it is.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GoodPersonEffed
F

fox21132113

Student
Sep 8, 2020
119
I'm reading these posts, and I just hope people who are giving their two cents on this subject, do in fact suffer from this. Text book answers are a dime a dozen and I'm not impressed. It is these types of posts and in accurate facts that further stigmatize BPD and mental health for that matter. Put yourself in a BPD persons shoes, all these claims in a suicide forum, one can become dysphoric.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sourpink and x~Sophia~x
x~Sophia~x

x~Sophia~x

Always give 100% - unless you’re donating blood.
Sep 10, 2020
1,361
Borderline Personality Disorder is a disorder of personality characterized by improper/abusive behavior in everyday relationships. Thus people with this disorder find it hard to socialize.

Where on earth did you dig this shit up from? :O

BPD is characterised by emotional instability, first and foremost; hence the new and updated diagnosis (Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.)

People with BPD find it hard to socialise due to their lack of confidence, anxiety and feeling that they're unworthy of being loved. It has absolutely nothing to do with "improper/abusive behavior!)

Where are you people getting your misinformation from? :ohhhh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gamja, sourpink, Frew and 2 others
BipolarGuy

BipolarGuy

Enlightened
Aug 6, 2020
1,456
I don't know if this thread is actually helping me to understand.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GoodPersonEffed and x~Sophia~x
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
Thank you for clarifying. I am also codependent, it is a pattern that is really hard to unlearn, regardless how dysfunctional it is.

I'm always glad to clarify. In the future I hope you'll quote or tag me so I can address any misunderstanding, not overlook it.

About codependency, I hear you. You know, as much as I take issue with certain things about that therapist we discussed, it made a lot of sense that he renamed it self-love deficit. It sucks when a label doesn't match the issue, like BPD. I would even call codependency self-worth deficit, because it's seeking self-worth based on focusing on and (ostensibly) acting in the best interest of another. It's like directing one's own sprinklers at another's yard and expecting both yards will flourish...and the other person's yard requires a mix of water and another resource the codependent person doesn't have, but they'll sure as shit keep hunting for it, buy it, try to mix the right ratio, never quite get the perfect balance...and their own yard just gets drier and drier.

Anyhow, apologies to all for the tangent onto a related but not the same subject. Maybe a codependency/self-worth deficit thread would be in order. Though, gosh, it's much more fun and effective to focus on other issues! (See what I did there?)
 
  • Love
Reactions: mahakaliSS_MahaDurga
L

LMFAO FOCKERS

Lost in Aokigahara
May 26, 2019
528
How dare you say that people with BPD manipulate people, who the fuck do you think you are with that assumption

Anyone can say shit it doesn't make it true

I didnt say it. A few licensed professionals said it. I repeated it as anyone has a right to. Maybe YOU have the PROBLEM hence you are raging on me tonight. GO CHECK YOURSELF. I'm REALLY NOT THE ONE for your chit!


Dont EVER talk to me like that again!!!
 
Last edited:
GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
No manipulation isn't the "hallmark" trait of bpd. And no we aren't narcissist who "ruin" people's lives. The whole stigma around bpd is sickening. We aren't treated like humans we are just seen as evil and terrible. I feel like people with bpd are actually more likely to get manipulated and end up in relationships with narcissistic people because we are vulnerable. But that's just my opinion.... everyone has DIFFERENT experiences that's the key here. If a bpd person is "manipulative" it's usually just a desperate attempt to avoid abandonment or other things. We are not manipulative on purpose or maliciously...that's a sociopathic narcissist. Bpd people feel and do care it just comes out wrong and lots of anger sometimes but we aren't bad people. We are humans too....bpd sucks though. It's truly a terrible thing to go through daily and then be hated for it.

I copied the traits of borderline from a medical website:

The 9 symptoms of BPD

Fear of abandonment. People with BPD are often terrified of being abandoned or left alone. Even something as innocuous as a loved one arriving home late from work or going away for the weekend may trigger intense fear. This can prompt frantic efforts to keep the other person close. You may beg, cling, start fights, track your loved one's movements, or even physically block the person from leaving. Unfortunately, this behavior tends to have the opposite effect—driving others away.

Unstable relationships. People with BPD tend to have relationships that are intense and short-lived. You may fall in love quickly, believing that each new person is the one who will make you feel whole, only to be quickly disappointed. Your relationships either seem perfect or horrible, without any middle ground. Your lovers, friends, or family members may feel like they have emotional whiplash as a result of your rapid swings from idealization to devaluation, anger, and hate.
Unclear or shifting self-image. When you have BPD, your sense of self is typically unstable. Sometimes you may feel good about yourself, but other times you hate yourself, or even view yourself as evil. You probably don't have a clear idea of who you are or what you want in life. As a result, you may frequently change jobs, friends, lovers, religion, values, goals, or even sexual identity. Impulsive, self-destructive behaviors. If you have BPD, you may engage in harmful, sensation-seeking behaviors, especially when you're upset. You may impulsively spend money you can't afford, binge eat, drive recklessly, shoplift, engage in risky sex, or overdo it with drugs or alcohol. These risky behaviors may help you feel better in the moment, but they hurt you and those around you over the long-term.

Self-harm. Suicidal behavior and deliberate self-harm is common in people with BPD. Suicidal behavior includes thinking about suicide, making suicidal gestures or threats, or actually carrying out a suicide attempt. Self-harm encompasses all other attempts to hurt yourself without suicidal intent. Common forms of self-harm include cutting and burning.

Extreme emotional swings. Unstable emotions and moods are common with BPD. One moment, you may feel happy, and the next, despondent. Little things that other people brush off can send you into an emotional tailspin. These mood swings are intense, but they tend to pass fairly quickly (unlike the emotional swings of depression or bipolar disorder), usually lasting just a few minutes or hours. Chronic feelings of emptiness. People with BPD often talk about feeling empty, as if there's a hole or a void inside them. At the extreme, you may feel as if you're "nothing" or "nobody." This feeling is uncomfortable, so you may try to fill the void with things like drugs, food, or sex. But nothing feels truly satisfying.

Explosive anger. If you have BPD, you may struggle with intense anger and a short temper. You may also have trouble controlling yourself once the fuse is lit—yelling, throwing things, or becoming completely consumed by rage. It's important to note that this anger isn't always directed outwards. You may spend a lot of time feeling angry at yourself. Feeling suspicious or out of touch with reality. People with BPD often struggle with paranoia or suspicious thoughts about others' motives. When under stress, you may even lose touch with reality—an experience known as dissociation. You may feel foggy, spaced out, or as if you're outside your own body.

Hey, @Raven Moon, since there's not a link, would you be willing to add the other four traits? I found this valuable and I'd like to read all of them.
 
R

rt1989526

Paragon
Aug 2, 2020
935
I don't know if this thread is actually helping me to understand.

Nobody understands BPD. It's a fucked up thing that makes for a fucked up person.
 
  • Like
  • Hugs
  • Aww..
Reactions: Good4Nothing, GoodPersonEffed, cii and 1 other person
cii

cii

"Well, it's groundhog day. Again."
Oct 24, 2020
55
Licensed professional's personal opinion doesn't mean anything to me. Do you know how many licensed professionals deny BPD patients because they're 'too difficult' or 'incurable'? How many complain about their BPD patients behind closed doors? I don't trust their opinion one bit.

You look at the diagnostic criteria and that should be enough for you. When a disorder is this stigmatized you have to take some caution with who your sources of information are. We're not manipulative monsters out to get everyone like people say. We're just in pain. If we manipulate at all it isn't on purpose and we learn to stop it with time.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Hugs
Reactions: Frew, BridgeJumper, mahakaliSS_MahaDurga and 1 other person
F

fox21132113

Student
Sep 8, 2020
119
I don't know if this thread is actually helping me to understand.
From my perspective, figuratively speaking, BPDs experience rollercoasters on a minute-by-hour basis. Bipolar people may experience them in waves of days-by-week? It's timing that vaguely separates the diagnosis. I have BPD, but what happens on your side Bipolar guy?
 
  • Like
Reactions: x~Sophia~x
L

LMFAO FOCKERS

Lost in Aokigahara
May 26, 2019
528
It seems as if people peg manipulation and monsters in the same sentence as its been alluded to many times on this thread. That is a personal perception. It doesnt have to mean that. I see that as a defensive stance.


If you dont care what a number of professionals have to say then maybe thats part of what's hindering recovery. If a group of people with expertise say something it may have validity. If one skips 20 people and finds 1 person to tell them what they want to hear then maybe thats an issue too.
 
Last edited:
G

Gentleman

For ethics, there is only suffering and its cure.
Sep 10, 2020
65
Where on earth did you dig this shit up from? :O

BPD is characterised by emotional instability, first and foremost; hence the new and updated diagnosis (Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder.)

People with BPD find it hard to socialise due to their lack of confidence, anxiety and feeling that they're unworthy of being loved. It has absolutely nothing to do with "improper/abusive behavior!)

Where are you people getting your misinformation from? :ohhhh:

I'm sorry if I offended you it was not my intention. :) However your language is uncalled for.
Btw I got my information from a video of Marsha Linehan a psychiatrist with BPD.
 
Last edited:
x~Sophia~x

x~Sophia~x

Always give 100% - unless you’re donating blood.
Sep 10, 2020
1,361
I'm sorry if I offended you it was not my intention. :) However your language is uncalled for.
Btw I got my information from a video of Marsha Linehan a psychiatrist with BPD.

Hmm, OK, but pl
I'm sorry if I offended you it was not my intention. :) However your language is uncalled for.
Btw I got my information from a video of Marsha Linehan a psychiatrist with BPD.
Marsha Linehan is a psychologist, not a psychiatrist... but that's beside the point.

As someone who suffers with BPD, I can categorically assure you that you have been misinformed. SOME people with BPD may he unable to socialise due to their hostile behaviours, but we are not all the same and shouldn't be piled into the same basket. BPD is so. much more than being unable to socialise, and in fact many CAN socialise. It's an extremely complex disorder which cannot be rounded up in a couple of sentences.

I apologise for my bad language, but your lack of sensitivity and utter bullshit triggered me. :heh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: sourpink, Frew, mahakaliSS_MahaDurga and 1 other person
cii

cii

"Well, it's groundhog day. Again."
Oct 24, 2020
55
It seems as if people peg manipulation and monsters in the same sentence as its been alluded to many times on this thread. That is a personal perception. It doesnt have to mean that. I see that as a defensive stance.


If you dont care what a number of professionals have to say then maybe thats part of what's hindering recovery. If a group of people with expertise say something it may have validity. If one skips 20 people and finds 1 person to tell them what they want to hear then maybe thats an issue too.

The word does have a negative connotation to it, and for good reason in this context, people tend to use that word against people with BPD. But I understand where you're coming from now.

However, you saying it is a characteristic of people with BPD just because a few people said so when it's not in the diagnostic criteria was rather upsetting. Same with other people constantly bringing it up to describe us, that one thing is not all we are and often it's not even any part of who we are. People with bipolar can be manipulative too, but that's irrelevant because it's not part of how you diagnose them. So why are we the ones being called out? If in the new DSM-6 it turns out manipulative behaviour is a part of the criteria I will eat my hat, but for now hearing it bugs me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mahakaliSS_MahaDurga, x~Sophia~x and GoodPersonEffed
L

LMFAO FOCKERS

Lost in Aokigahara
May 26, 2019
528
The word does have a negative connotation to it, and for good reason in this context, people tend to use that word against people with BPD. But I understand where you're coming from now.

However, you saying it is a characteristic of people with BPD just because a few people said so when it's not in the diagnostic criteria was rather upsetting. Same with other people constantly bringing it up to describe us, that one thing is not all we are and often it's not even any part of who we are. People with bipolar can be manipulative too, but that's irrelevant because it's not part of how you diagnose them. So why are we the ones being called out? If in the new DSM-6 it turns out manipulative behaviour is a part of the criteria I will eat my hat, but for now hearing it bugs me.


Frankly, I dont have a dog in the fight so it doesnt matter to me either way...

Of course manipulation has a negative connotation. Manipulation can be done for many reasons. The intent and end game sought may determine how its received but it doesn't make one a monster in all cases (imo). Though it may not make for healthy friendships.

At the end of the day if groups of people with thousands of clinical hours experience BPD individuals in that way then their opinion has some validity. Every depressed person isn't suicidal but many are. Every Bipolar person doesnt think they're superhuman during mania but many might. Every ADHD person doesnt have problems in school but many do. We can both go on and on with every diagnosis. etc.
 
x~Sophia~x

x~Sophia~x

Always give 100% - unless you’re donating blood.
Sep 10, 2020
1,361
I think a lot of people seem to forget that most people who have BPD also have other co-morbid disorders such as depression, anxiety, paranoia, eating disorders, insomnia, OCD, addictions (drugs, alcohol, sex, etc.,)
So BPD isn't the whole story. As I've already said, it's a very complex disorder, and not one that anyone who hasn't had experience of, either personally or professionally, should comment on.
At the end of the day if groups of people with thousands of clinical hours experience BPD individuals in that way then their opinion has some validity. Every depressed person isn't suicidal but many are. Every Bipolar person doesnt think they're superhuman during mania but many might. Every ADHD person doesnt have problems in school but many do. We can both go on and on with every diagnosis. etc.

BPD is the most misunderstood mental health disorder. There is no medication for it and the 'professionals' don't know how to deal with it. It's the most dreaded disorder of all, and until more research is carried out, it will continue to be the most stigmatised disorder of them all.
 
Last edited:
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: Symbiote, mahakaliSS_MahaDurga and cii

Similar threads

nottinghams
Replies
2
Views
260
Suicide Discussion
soontofindpeace
soontofindpeace
I
Replies
5
Views
461
Suicide Discussion
sadbabyyata
S
F
Replies
2
Views
166
Suicide Discussion
Praestat_Mori
P
B
Replies
5
Views
244
Suicide Discussion
Metalhead
Metalhead