What is Hurting My Heart and My Brain Today: Humans Lying and Saving Face

[GoodPersonEffed]

I've come to the tentative conclusion that the two worst things about humans is that we can lie, and the desire to save face.

More people have been hurt by these two things than, I think, than by any other "sin."

If we couldn't lie, we wouldn't be able to screw others over nearly as easily. We would be safer for each other. We would be more inclined to accept reality, including our shortcomings, and to own our actions.

If there was no desire to save face, we wouldn't lie to ourselves and to others about who we are and what we do. We would be more able to accept reality, including our shortcomings, and we would have to own our shit. We would apologize and be more humble. We would all be more authentic with one another, and wouldn't feel vulnerable about it.

Reality is hard. Not accepting reality, or having it fucked with subconsciously or by someone else, is even harder.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

It's an interesting thought experiment to imagine a world in which we could not lie, and had no desire to save face.
Would such a world even be possible? If if were possible, would all communication be drastically restricted by the inability to lie, and would the lack of desire to save face actually entail some negative social consequences, as well as good ones?

I understand and agree with the general point of your post, I'm just trying to come at it from a (unnecessarily?) philosophical perspective.

I don't know if you've read Nietzsche's short essay 'on truth and lies in an extra-moral sense'? I think you would find it interesting.
The beginning paragraph is sublime:

"In some remote corner of the universe, poured out and glittering in innumerable solar systems, there once was a star on which clever animals invented knowledge. That was the highest and most mendacious minute of "world history"—yet only a minute. After nature had drawn a few breaths the star grew cold, and the clever animals had to die."

In that essay he also says that humans have "an invincible inclination to allow themselves to be deceived", which is a necessary condition for the lie to be able to weave its web of deception, dissimulation and metaphor, and which is probably as old as communication itself and the mythmaking and storytelling origins of humanity.

 

[262653]

The lying thing reminds me of the prisoner's dilemma where individuals end up snitching on each other because that's the best strategy individually.

Food manufacturers are adding colors, flavors and sweeteners in their food. Consumers eat this food and their senses say that the food is good. I would consider it as lying too, selling tasty food that has questionable nutrition value, and has bad effects on health (poisonous).

I'm talking from personal experience. I have a rich history of consuming toxic wastes. The last year I started to eat tasty cakes systematically, thought I'm going to die soon, so why should the consequences matter anyway... I didn't die but instead gained around 15 kg, and not in muscles, bones or ligaments.

In that essay he also says that humans have "an invincible inclination to allow themselves to be deceived", which is a necessary condition for the lie to be able to weave its web of deception, dissimulation and metaphor, and which is probably as old as communication itself and the mythmaking and storytelling origins of humanity.

In another thread, I've jumped into a false conclusion by not examining the paper carefully. I didn't know what livor mortis means, so I skipped that section, but now I have an idea what it is, and it affected my understanding of the paper.

How do I explain this... I have imperfect understanding and I made... wrong (there should be a more precise word for it; false, illogical, unsound?) conclusions from the paper. But considering I don't have perfect understanding, how do I know for sure that the information present before me wasn't intentionally composed in a way so that I'm more likely to reach a certain wrong conclusion?
How can I be sure that there was no intention for decieving me, and that my imperfect understanding isn't used to lead me to a wrong conclusion?
How do I know if information wasn't intentionally shaped in a way to make a certain impression?
Considering that my resources are limited, how do I come to accurate conclusions while spending the least amount of resources? Where is the golden mean?

 

[Mr2005]

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people are willing to make themselves look in order to save face. Does the exact opposite of what they set out to do. So you made a mistake. No one cares except you. They care if you keep lying about it regardless of the consequences

 

[Deleted member 1465]

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid people are willing to make themselves look in order to save face. Does the exact opposite of what they set out to do. So you made a mistake. No one cares except you. They care if you keep lying about it regardless of the consequences

Please post that on Boris Johnson's Twitter feed

 

[Mr2005]

Please post that on Boris Johnson's Twitter feed

I wondered if GoodPersonEffed had a certain other politician in mind when they wrote it. I certainly did

 

[Deleted member 1465]

I wondered if GoodPersonEffed had a certain other politician in mind when they wrote it. I certainly did

I think it can be multi-purpose I actually think it's very apposite. I never understood that either. Whenever i made mistakes and got complaints at work (not often cuz I was sooooo good ) I'd say, yeah, I got it wrong, sorry. I'd correct the record and make whatever amends I could. Never had a reader who wasn't happy with that. But our bloody council...never accept responsibility, never apologise. I think that's the way in all politics, even at a grass roots level. It's not only dishonourable, it just doesn't work in the long term. But hey, who's worried about that, right?

But lying to others is just a facade anyhoo. The lies we continue to tell ourselves are the worst.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I wondered if GoodPersonEffed had a certain other politician in mind when they wrote it. I certainly did

I didn't then, but I often do when I think about this subject.

I was thinking about my parents choosing years ago to permanently end contact with me, then my mother later using an old photo of us as her Facebook profile pic and talking for me as if we're still in contact, and even though I've made threats to out her, she reposts the photo. There's a Montaigne quote about how it's easy to play a role on the stage, but what about what's in your heart, and even if that's a nasty place, well, what about in your own home where nothing is required of you to be artificial or to hide anything.

I was thinking about the culture of Mexico, it's a culture of saving face and of lying. People will tell you what you want to hear to make you happy, but they won't follow through, and don't dare lose your shit about it because it's not polite good manners, just play the game under the surface, but the surface must always look nice.

Japanese culture is also patriarchal and also about saving face. It's not what someone does that's shameful, but having it spoken about. This is how abuse continues, just as it did in my home growing up -- I know the neighbors had to hear the yelling, hear me screaming -- but they turned their heads, didn't interfere.

I'm just so sick of all of it. Trump is the ultimate. I've known people like him. If frustrates me beyond frustration, that someone will knowingly lie no matter how much evidence you have and they just keep lying and get away with it. They'll wear you down, run you over, and just keep doing their shit with little to no impunity. I really can't handle it anymore. Someone should step in, but not the fucking UN. There is no one trustworthy to step in. And what power do the citizens of any country really have?

Lately I keep re-reading this quote from Elie Wiesel's Nobel Peace Prize acceptance speech:

"And that is why I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national [and family] borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men or women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views [or because of the unrestrained power of sociopaths or tyrants], that place must – at that moment – become the center of the universe."

 

[Soul]

One time the neighbors did phone when they heard me screaming; my she-guardian conveyed that the neighbour had said she'd call the police if I didn't stop screaming and I shut up. I thought the neighbour meant *I* was in the wrong.

Pardon my digression.
People get all twisted up so easily when they're children.

 

[checkouttime]

I really hate lies. i just don't feel the need for it. i don't worry about what others think about me and will certainly not try to make myself look better by lying.

even when i used to go to work. i have misdiagnosed a problem on a job. i have the then told the person the job will be cheaper, even if it was going to cost me money. they do look at you rather funny lol. it would be easy to rip someone off by lying, but i just can't do something like that personally.

i think sometimes being so honest can get peoples backs up, but i wouldn't change it to suit them. i am what i am, like me or loath me. one thing i will always do is be honest.probably too honest for my own good at times!!! its probably what makes me so good at spotting someone doing it!!!

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I think if people were honest 100% of the time, society would be even worse and more cruel than it is now.

 

[NeverGoodEnuff]

Is saying nothing the same as telling a lie?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think if people were honest 100% of the time, society would be even worse and more cruel than it is now.

I'm interested in your point of view. Would you be willing to say more?

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I'm interested in your point of view. Would you be willing to say more?

Sure. The idea is that the need to virtue-signal and save face is the sole motivation to ever show kindness for many people. That is depressing, but true. Without social pressure many people wouldn't even pretend to care. Many people also have very cruel and unkind thoughts about others that they don't voice fearing social pressure. If everyone started honestly expressing their indifference, jealousy, cruel ideas etc. instead of following the social protocol and trying to be nice, so many conflicts would escalate dramatically. Truth is often hurtful and unpleasant, I don't think there is a single person in this world that really would like to hear 100% truth all of the time: "I don't really care how you feel", "stop talking, you're boring", it was totally your fault", "I think you're stupid and unattractive" etc.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Sure. The idea is that the need to virtue-signal and save face is the sole motivation to ever show kindness for many people. That is depressing, but true. Without social pressure many people wouldn't even pretend to care. Many people also have very cruel and unkind thoughts about others that they don't voice fearing social pressure. If everyone started honestly expressing their indifference, jealousy, cruel ideas etc. instead of following the social protocol and trying to be nice, so many conflicts would escalate dramatically. Truth is often hurtful and unpleasant, I don't think there is a single person in this world that really would like to hear 100% truth all of the time: "I don't really care how you feel", "stop talking, you're boring", it was totally your fault", "I think you're stupid and unattractive" etc.

Okay, I get what you're saying now.

I think some folks have conflated not lying with saying everything one thinks, or that one would have to divulge everything. Not lying can be as simple as, "I don't want to answer your question" or "I don't want to tell you" or "That's none of your concern."

I'm having a hard time with lying being a motivation for genuine kindness and decency (or, since decency varies among cultures, doing no harm). If doing good to others is based on a lie, such as saving face, then it's not genuine kindness or good, it's fear of exposure, and acting inauthentically can turn one's internal world into a pressure cooker.

What I see in common between you and I is that there is focus on social cruelty. I'm saying that no lying and no saving face would increase awareness and acceptance of reality, and therefore safety, and you're saying no lying and no saving face would decrease a safety cushion and increase social cruelty.

I'm reminded of Gautama Buddha, who listed many ways that lying is unacceptable, and that to not lie gives immeasurable beings freedom from fear, oppression and hostility.* Yet he also rationalized his own actions according to his wishes and convenience and saved face. After he proclaimed he was a Buddha, a perfectly enlightened one, and formed his sangha, his brother joined. His brother didn't want to sleep on the floor and give up his kohl eyeliner, in spite of the rules. Finally, Gautama lost it and ripped his brother a new one in front of others, and his brother complied. But no, he wasn't speaking harshly (which falls under the umbrella of lying in that philosophy), he was speaking to his brother as a parent would a child; it was justified and necessary. No hostility or oppression or cause for fear in that at all!


*Freedom from fear, oppression and hostility comes from holding back as well in not killing, not stealing, not performing sexual misconduct, and not using intoxicants. Intoxicants lower awareness and social inhibitions, and increase the likelihood of breaking one of the precepts or not guarding against having them broken against the self.

 

[262653]

"I don't really care how you feel", "stop talking, you're boring", it was totally your fault", "I think you're stupid and unattractive" etc.

Hahaha! I absolutely love those. Just how much effort both parties would save if one would tell "could you stop, please? I'm not interested". Occasionally I enjoy imagining hypothetical worlds with one or two variables changed, like not being able to say lies. I do think I would prefer 100% truth if the only alternative is the current state of affairs. I wonder how goodbye posts would look like...

 

[XYZ]

And that is why I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented. Sometimes we must interfere. When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national [and family] borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men or women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views [or because of the unrestrained power of sociopaths or tyrants], that place must – at that moment – become the center of the universe."

Beautiful I went and read the entire text. Thank you for posting this quote, otherwise I might have never come across Elie Wiesel's acceptance speech.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

As I keep thinking about it, it seems a huge proportion of species deceive. Many species are violent, even to others within their own species. I get that lying is self-protective. I get that humans are violent an abusive to one another, even in the smallest social group, the family.

As I said in the OP, this stuff is hurting my heart and my mind.

It hurts that humans have the capacity for ethics, rationality, and rising above our baser natures...but not all humans do.

I watched a video yesterday about abuse and gaslighting, and how the target of abuse seeks some kind of predictability or rules of conduct to be able to stop being hurt. I am being hurt by humans, and I keep seeking to understand because I want it to stop. I have found ways in which I have been abusive to others, and that coming to awareness is temporarily painful, but -- and I don't mean to put myself on a pedestal here at all -- I face that, and I make the effort to change, to do better with each step going forward, and to stop being abusive. I renounce the urge to excuse myself and save face. I acknowledge the shame that I wasn't good enough, but I am enough to face it and do better. What hurts is that others don't do the same. My parents follow the abuser script, project their sins onto me, blame me for winning, banish me, and then make up another version of me to present to their public so that they can have unearned reputations and high regard that they didn't work for. They don't take responsibility for their actions, they just keep doubling down on toxic, irrational behavior that's very soon going to bite them in the ass because I finally outed them, but it won't effect real change in them. I was reading about high conflict personalities, and the author said that batterers, when they get treatment, often don't stop blaming their targets for their anger and violence...they just learn to stop hitting.

Lying and saving face mean not taking responsibility and not owning anything about the self.

I'm not finding solutions. I'm not finding a way to get safe. I don't have the power to effect change in others who harm, I can't make them face themselves or reality. They keep harming. I keep suffering. I won't use the label of victim, it doesn't serve me, and survivor doesn't really cut it. I and so many are undeservedly targeted for blame and abuse. I can't even figure out how to be a moving target and get out of the line of fire.

I can't stop the hurt. I can't fix the world. I can't make humanity change. The only thing I have the power to do is to stop existing -- I hope. And it's not a satisfactory kind of hope. It's nihilism. There is no way for me to become an Elie Wiesel, and even if I did, like him, I would increase awareness, I would inspire some change, but it feels like real change just won't happen. Holocausts and genocides haven't stopped. Oppression and violence and tyranny haven't stopped. The weakest members of society are still beaten, raped, tortured, enslaved, oppressed. It seems to me like there are those who rise above, who cry out, who bravely demand change even if they will be killed for any of these actions. The ancient stories of those who rise above and those who oppress and destroy never stop, they're just cycles.

I hurt so much.

 

[262653]

I'm not finding solutions. I'm not finding a way to get safe. I don't have the power to effect change in others who harm, I can't make them face themselves or reality. They keep harming. I keep suffering. I won't use the label of victim, it doesn't serve me, and survivor doesn't really cut it. I and so many are undeservedly targeted for blame and abuse. I can't even figure out how to be a moving target and get out of the line of fire.

The way I understand it: you're trying to do the right thing (according to your current moral code maybe), yet it doesn't seem to work, and the hurt continues. Why not use those tricks you learn about from abusers to protect yourself? Not just to defend, but also to attack?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Why not use those tricks you learn about from abusers to protect yourself? Not just to defend, but also to attack

Then I become what hurts me, an abuser, and in turn hurt others.

My protection is awareness and self-restraint. Sometimes the negative wins and sometimes I lose, maybe even my life, but I don't lose myself.

"Beings have their actions as their refuge and shelter." - Buddha

My volitional actions are the foundation, refuge and shelter of my good self. Shitty actions = shitty foundation, refuge and shelter. I could be rightly punished for what I wrongly do, and I retain my self-respect if I am wrongly punished for doing no wrong.

 

[checkouttime]

Truth is often hurtful and unpleasant, I don't think there is a single person in this world that really would like to hear 100% truth all of the time: "

I'm not so sure the truth does hurt. if a person has done something wrong, they might not then like being told so. but i would rather people be honest as lies and deceit cause alot more problems than someone being straight with you. i personally don't mind someone telling me the truth, i would take it any day over a lie. but i can take things like that, wheres i think others may be more sensitive to it.

I feel like when your saying the truth hurts, you mean as when someone is criticizing another person. In that situation it doesn't always mean the person criticizing is right.

so if someone said something to me about myself, i have a choice. i can either listen and maybe i do something about it(but only if its what i want to do). or i can ignore it. i might not agree with what someone says. it doesn't mean i won't listen to what others say.

if someone is being critical f you, its how you as a person can deal with it. sometimes constructive criticism can be helpful and spur people on to be better. but if someone is being truthful in a way to hurt you thats different. personally it wouldn't bother me, it would go right over my head. i don't get hurt by things like that, but i understand not everyone can deal with things that way. they take things to heart etc.

i think when people say the truth hurts, its because it really is the truth. but i could take someone saying it to me, because i would already know its the truth myself anyway.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

Truth is often hurtful and unpleasant, I don't think there is a single person in this world that really would like to hear 100% truth all of the time:

@checkouttime quoting this brought it more to my attention than the first time. Not beating up on you here, I just realized how relevant it is to the OP.

I'd like to share an example, and this goes along with what I've written about Mexican culture, being nice on the surface, saving face, and why this hurts. If I sound like I have an attitude, I'm not reacting to you, I'm reacting to that "I don't want to hear anything hurtful and unpleasant" attitude that many carry that is quite prevalent, and I take exception to it for what I think is good reason; perhaps you or others will disagree, and I make space for that. Others are allowed to disagree and not be swayed.

In Mexican culture, since, as you say, people don't like hearing no, and it being a face-saving culture, then the person who would say no instead says "mañana." Only tomorrow never comes. It's a culture of refusing to be pinned down to a firm yes or a no, to giving a direct answer to a direct question and actually following through on it. And don't dare mention it. I asked a maintenance worker who's supposed to fix my ceiling when that would happen and he said, "mañana." I replied, "The day of tomorrow, or Mexican mañana?" His face showed a flash of irritation, he got a little more erect, and said, "The day of tomorrow." Guess whether my ceiling has ever been fixed. One just has to let shit go, or it gets "unpleasant" for daring to get frustrated or "demanding." Even things like contracts and laws cannot be counted on to be honored or upheld, they're more like signposts of what to try to get around if you can, and those with more power can. A whole culture like that. A culture where males have more value and more authority, and where abuse is rampant, where laws don't protect the poor or even the rich, where those with the most power rule, and there is always someone waiting for the opportunity to knock them down. It's like a culture of spoiled little boys getting away with as much as they can, being indulged, and victims never getting recompense or justice. This truth is unpleasant, but if people would be truthful and hold to promises and contracts, isn't it possible the entire culture would be more pleasant and less hurtful?

There's a man who runs a convenience store. He's probably 20 years older than me. He calls me senorita. I've told him senora, but that's not pleasant for him, so he keeps calling me that. He calls me beautiful; I told him he needs new glasses, he dropped it. He plays like he's bowing and scraping when I come in; I told him he's full of it and he got visibily irritated. He tried to kiss my hand; I told him I really like his wife and it's not okay, he got irritated that I wouldn't agree it's respectful. He calls me senorita, little miss, so I call him senorito, little mister. Whenever I assert my boundaries and my equality, there's a chance he's not going to like it and display offense. His games are pleasant to him; they are unpleasant to me. If he doesn't like the truth, I don't have to carry that. I don't have to soothe him and make him happy. I don't have to make his life pleasant at the expense of my dignity and autonomy and my own self-respect. I think that's often why people find the truth unpleasant, because inside there's a little child that doesn't want responsibility, doesn't want to recognize there are other humans who need equal consideration, and has a temper tantrum.

If I could afford it, I would move to Germany, where people are more direct, and while other cultures see them as rude, they are practical and actually accomplish things today. They don't do mañana. Maybe accomplishing things and expecting people to honor their word and contracts is overrated. Maybe, as some would say, I'm the one with the problem. Abusers often say that to their targets for complaining the abuse hurts and is unpleasant.

 

[Fedrea]

@checkouttime There's a man who runs a convenience store. He's probably 20 years older than me. He calls me senorita. I've told him senora, but that's not pleasant for him, so he keeps calling me that. He calls me beautiful; I told him he needs new glasses, he dropped it. He plays like he's bowing and scraping when I come in; I told him he's full of it and he got visibily irritated. He tried to kiss my hand; I told him I really like his wife and it's not okay, he got irritated that I wouldn't agree it's respectful. He calls me senorita, little miss, so I call him senorito, little mister. Whenever I assert my boundaries and my equality, there's a chance he's not going to like it and display offense. His games are pleasant to him; they are unpleasant to me. If he doesn't like the truth, I don't have to carry that. I don't have to soothe him and make him happy. I don't have to make his life pleasant at the expense of my dignity and autonomy and my own self-respect. I think that's often why people find the truth unpleasant, because inside there's a little child that doesn't want responsibility, doesn't want to recognize there are other humans who need equal consideration, and has a temper tantrum.

If I could afford it, I would move to Germany, where people are more direct, and while other cultures see them as rude, they are practical and actually accomplish things today. They don't do mañana. Maybe accomplishing things and expecting people to honor their word and contracts is overrated. Maybe, as some would say, I'm the one with the problem. Abusers often say that to their targets for complaining the abuse hurts and is unpleasant.

I aspire to roll like this with patronising men.

Germans are like this and you do come off a bit German GPE. Scandi women can be like this too.

 

[checkouttime]

@checkouttime quoting this brought it more to my attention than the first time. Not beating up on you here, I just realized how relevant it is to the OP.


In Mexican culture, since, as you say, people don't like hearing no, and it being a face-saving culture, then the person who would say no instead says "mañana." Only tomorrow never comes. It's a culture of refusing to be pinned down to a firm yes or a no, to giving a direct answer to a direct question and actually following through on it. And don't dare mention it. I asked a maintenance worker who's supposed to fix my ceiling when that would happen and he said, "mañana." I replied, "The day of tomorrow, or Mexican mañana?" His face showed a flash of irritation, he got a little more erect, and said, "The day of tomorrow." Guess whether my ceiling has ever been fixed. One just has to let shit go, or it gets "unpleasant" for daring to get frustrated or "demanding." Even things like contracts and laws cannot be counted on to be honored or upheld, they're more like signposts of what to try to get around if you can, and those with more power can. A whole culture like that. A culture where males have more value and more authority, and where abuse is rampant, where laws don't protect the poor or even the rich, where those with the most power rule, and there is always someone waiting for the opportunity to knock them down. It's like a culture of spoiled little boys getting away with as much as they can, being indulged, and victims never getting recompense or justice. This truth is unpleasant, but if people would be truthful and hold to promises and contracts, isn't it possible the entire culture would be more pleasant and less hurtful?

I know exactly what this person is...... an absolute arsehole. and i will explain exactly this persons attitude

so if i remember right you were renting somewhere. so the workman does the maintenance on the property. he works for the landlord who pays his wages. his attitude is the people paying the rent aren't important, he looks down on them/you. what idiots like fail to realise is that you/the other tenants are the ones who really pay his wages. do you have to ring the landlord to report any jobs that need doing? if the tenants don't need work doing, this guy is isn't needed. he's that braindead he doesn't understand that.i had a similar situation where a landlord i worked for the tenants were used to getting nothing done, didn't ring jobs in etc. i totally changed that, i used to get the tenants things i thought needed doing, a lot of the time not even asking the landlord. not just to make money for myself, because i thought the people deserved to be treated this way. after all they pay rent, they should live a certain standard. now i don't know if the persons on a wage rather than working for themselves. i feel like they may be picking and choosing, what work they do. but even some self employed people work this way....do all the easy jobs and neglect the rest. i have a feeling that if you complain/more you complain. the less likely they are to do the job. they like the authority/power over you they have. the landlord might not actually be bothered if the person was self employed, it would save them money. if they are a landlord with just a few properties, most of the time these people don't put some rent aside for repairs. then when a big job is needed to be done, they scrape around for the cheapest person(big mistake). i know you mentioned about the males having the power etc. even if you had not mentioned that, i would of took a guess that the person treats women different to men. i have seen it so many times where women, don't want workmen in the house and feel uncomfortable in this situation. now me personally, that has never happened.why? because it all about knowing how to behave and act in all the different situations. you have to know how to treat different people. and definitely not by lying to them.

now me as a workman

i am entering a persons home. rented or not, rich or poor makes absolutely no difference.alot of my work was word of mouth, i never advertised.i have worked in footballers, soap opera stars, businessmen's...........middle class, lower class. from mansions to some seriously poor living conditions.

1st off, the person needs to feel comfortable with you entering their home. be it rented, or their own. it doesn't matter.a person paying you directly or you doing work for a landlord.same difference, they are both earning you money. when you enter their property they deserve to be respected, its their home at the end of the day. now every person is different, you have to know how to behave in each circumstance. in my eyes its not something you can teach. i had old people, young people,LGBT, rich, poor. now i had to work hard to gain peoples trust. mainly due to the fact of them having a person similar to what you mentioned doing the job for 20yrs before me. alot were suspicious, uneasy at 1st. now even doing the job properly, they aren't used to that. sometimes they question what you are doing, they aren't used to being treated this way. then comes into play knowing your job and how to explain things to people. the person doesn't even need to understand what you are talking about, they can tell when someone knows what they are talking about. used to do jobs for really cheap for the tenants i worked with, as i was pretty much around 5 days a week and they weren't well off. sometimes i did something for free(people question why?). in turn i would hope i would get more work from them passing my name on etc(doesn't always work).

at the end of the day its about attitude, management of different people/circumstances. I did every job i ever did 100% no slacking ever. if you are going to do a job , you do it properly or not at all is my way. and every person is equal, they all earn me money. i earns alot of money, but you know what seeing people happy, job satisfaction is priceless.having a women say your work belongs in an art gallery(were talking about pipes here lol), someone who doesn't know my job(i don't mean that in a nasty way) you know you have done something well, thats a special feeling you can't buy. its hard work and i loved my job, there was never a day when i woke up and didn't want to go to work. my mates used to moan when a few of us who did the same job were in the pub, its all we would talk about was work lol (bet i sound a right bore!!). you get out,what you put in.

problem now is people just see my job as a money earner, want to put minimum effort in. treat people like shit, lie to them. honestly it used to piss me off so much, i wondered how people got away with stuff, it amazes me sometimes. this is 100% true, any person i ever did a job for would never ring any one else for work. even if it was another trade, they would ask me if i knew someone as they trusted me that much. now that is something i was so proud off, like i said moneys good, the job satisfaction is another level. not for the attention, because its what people deserved and making them happy is what its all about, its there hard work they deserve nothing less

i'll give you an example of a situation

i get a call to a job. twenty something, on her own with a few children. guy does a job, gets most of the money and wont go back. i get asked to look at the job, a friend of hers knew passed my name on. so i go to look at the job, she thinks its just a simple thing.she wants me to finish off what this guy has left and sign his work off. i don't sign others work off, ever.but said i will look over the job anyway(not for money).another person had looked at job and was willing to do it, but i was asked to look also.
I turn up and the guys installed the appliance wrong, i explain to her its not a little job. i need to totally relocate the appliance, thats she has already paid alot of money for.now i know every regulation (its amazing how many people know very little, considering its their job!). i explained to her what was needed and how much it would cost. the problem is she's already payed, I AM not happy at all. i don't want her to have to pay. So i told her to message the guy and told her what to say.basically it was all the faults etc, so when he read it he knew someone knew exactly what they were talking about. she got a reply this time! he begged her to let him come round and fix the problems. no chance she told him, i was the one going to do it. he said to her he would pay whatever i charged just don't report him!
well that wasn't good enough still. he was told to pay all the money back, that way he would think twice before trying it again. maybe people might not agree with that , i think some people only learn one way. but thats an example of how i treated a person i had never met before, i despise people who think they can do things like that to others.

and like you said GPE the laws etc don't always help people. so i used my own law, its called pick on someone your own size.who can fight back!

i haven't read all the post yet either lol, i started replying after i read the 1st part lol

sorry for the essay!

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

@checkouttime, your first sentence made me laugh out loud!

Really, though, this is just Mexican culture. When I lived in the US, Mexicans were the same. If you hire them to do a job, they'll schedule it and not show up. They may reschedule several times and not show up. And then one day out of nowhere, they show up and act like everything is fine. "Mañana" is a thing. My landlord is like this, too, and the condo office manager. They're all super nice, they just don't do what they say they're going to do, only what will make you happy to hear. My landlord, a woman, got pissed at me for getting angry and started going telenovela on me, I actually had to soothe her, and I'm her customer! She didn't keep her word, I expected her to, I got very direct about it, and therefore she lost face. I was supposed to be "nice," and in her mind, she was being nice! It's a highly manipulative culture. 'No" is like the law, it's something to try to get around or talk someone out of. It's some crazy-making shit. Like, the whole staff knows I won't answer the door unless I'm expecting them, I explained my reasons and was told very seriously, "Yes, you're right, you have reason," but they'll still ring the doorbell several times, then finally send me an email. I have to not cave in or they won't respect me -- even though it's disrespectful for them to keep doing what they agree to not do!

But the maintenance guy, when he's actually here, is so nice and listens patiently when I speak and I get no creepy or disrespectful vibes off of him at all. When he's on the job, he's great. But if he says he'll be back the next day...no.

There's an old joke, "How do you know a Mexican is lying? Their lips are moving." Not all Mexicans are like that, but it's very, very strong in the culture. Lying isn't treated the same as it is in Western wypipo culture, it's not so offensive, and someone keeping their word is not so expected. I read something that makes sense to me in my experience, that this stuff I'm talking about is part of the machismo culture -- people keep dishing shit out, whether lying, not keeping appointments, etc., and the one who loses their shit, loses. The one who calls it out, instead of pretending everything is okay, is in bad form, and loses. It's about winning, and they will NOT tell you the rules, that's the rule. Here's a driving rule: if you want to merge into traffic, just push your way in, they'll act like they're not going to let you, but it's a game of chicken to see how close the vehicles can come without actually touching.

You sound like an awesome worker, you know your shit and you're ethical. MUCH RESPECT! If it were my ceiling, I'd probably ask you to come fix it! Here, though, it's more of a story, the story of the landlord's emotions about the fact there is a leak, and everyone shifting responsibility. She's totally chill now that someone has said "mañana," and when there is structural damage, there will be a new story, and more shifting, and a new mañana, and when the whole building collapses, it will be a new story. This is Mexico. Así es.

 

[esse_est_percipi]

I think what you describe as the 'mañana' mexican culture is true also of southern europe. It could be something to do with the latino/hispanic culture and mindset, though it's risky to generalize and stereotype too much.
So do you actually live in Mexico GPE?

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

I think what you describe as the 'mañana' mexican culture is true also of southern europe. It could be something to do with the latino/hispanic culture and mindset, though it's risky to generalize and stereotype too much.
So do you actually live in Mexico GPE?

Yes, I live in Mexico.

The mañana spirit is in many cultures, including other Latino cultures, also French and Greek, others I can't think of. Wherever it's difficult to get multiple different workmen to show up or a crazy, slow, ineffective bureaucracy, the spirit of mañana is there.

I've done some reading and one source said that the experience of time is different, kind of like what I was saying about the stories, that things are cyclical like the seasons, that closure and resolution aren't important, things just go on and on. That makes some sense, but I don't understand how lying fits in with that. It's like some ongoing human drama, and no one is ever really satisfied, there are great battles and great losses, it's all so dramatic. There's also passion and intense love, and then blowups and cheating and sometimes domestic violence, breaking up and sobbing and begging, getting back together, suicidal gestures, on and on and on. The people who handle it best give no fucks, they just shrug it all off, but of course someone else will make a drama out of that. There's just a strong dislike of boundaries, and then a strong dislike about not having them respected when things finally blow. And yet...there is the admiration of "tranquilidad." Usually it's the implacable person who happens who also have the most power who experiences it, often someone who sets everyone to fighting with each other and steps out if it and has peace. I've met so many Latino men who are tranquilo, never a woman!

Speaking of drama, I had a cleaning lady foisted on me who treated me like I was the evil woman in a telenovela just because I had boundaries. With every week she hated me more, and was...overtly passive aggressive about it. I finally told her I was exiting the struggle, I wouldn't have a telenovela in my peaceful home, and she could decide to knock it off and we'd never speak of it again, or she could decide to keep it up and I'd pay her less, and if she still kept it up, I'd have her let go. I gave her a set amount of time to decide, and she didn't have to return until she decided. Days later, I was informed that she'd had a nervous breakdown and wouldn't be back for two months; that was over three months ago. I seriously doubt I'll see her again. I don't miss her at all, and I felt no guilt. If she literally had a nervous breakdown, she had shit going on long before the one month I was in her life.

It seems like the only way to have peace is to not connect with others. Even in Western culture, not many people like and respect a boundary, perhaps akin to what @Nessie said about people not liking the truth. Truth has definite boundaries, Seneca said that, an Original Latin from two milennia ago. Which makes my heart hurt to think of, and I'll digress and end it here...it hurts my heart that Stoicism was really strong for so long, that there were a lot of people trying to be virtuous, take personal responsibility, and be aware of their fellow humans and society, from emperors to slaves, men and women alike...and it petered out. Christianity via Catholicism and Greek Orthodoxy became the thing, and Catholicism is still wielding awful power, from the crusades to the Middle Ages to prohibition of birth control to csa cover-ups.

I'm so disheartened. And I really love my heart.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

@GoodPersonEffed that was interesting to learn more about your culture.
You seem like a very idealistic person. I think you put a lot more in a concept of honesty that the basic idea of people saying what they really think all the time that I thought of. Beautiful, but utopic idea.

 

[GoodPersonEffed]

And yet...there is the admiration of "tranquilidad." Usually it's the implacable person who happens who also have the most power who experiences it, often someone who sets everyone to fighting with each other and steps out if it and has peace. I've met so many Latino men who are tranquilo, never a woman!

I have to correct myself on this. "Tranquilo" is definitely a part of the whole culture. There is an inherent laid-backness in the culture, and it's there in "mañana" cultures. There is a going with the flow, and a relaxation in expectations not being met, and it's in women as well as men. For instance, I read a blog about a guy from the states. He'd been living in Mexico. He wanted to go to a bullfight, there were posters that said three different locations where one could buy tickets. He went on a drawn-out quest to find them. Not at the bank as advertised. Not at the second location. The third was a pharmacy. Not there, but the employees said to check a specific pharmacy location. That one said yes, but they wouldn't have the tickets until a certain day. So he arrived that day. Not yet, come back in the afternoon. This went on and on. The employees at all the locations just shrug it off. Tranquilo. This is not a big deal. When he finally got the tickets, they were not for the main event. He was never able to find them. This kind of thing drives Americans nuts, but it's the norm in many cultures, not just Mexican or Latino. There's an attitude of going with the flow, and as an American, I've yet to know what that flow is.

Another example. I got a taxi from outside a nearby store. I liked the driver, I hoped to use him again. I asked if he was at the store often, as I didn't recall him among the many drivers I've seen there. He said, "I'm always there, every day." I have never seen him since. This is the norm.

I understand now why Americans are so disliked as travelers. We get stressed out when promises aren't kept and we don't know what to expect. We're uptight, not tranquilo. We have a totally different flow. Canadians are much more preferred as guests. They use the national word "sorry." Canadians don't want to offend anyone. They may not understand the flow, but they're not likely to complain about it.

I didn't mean to turn this into a cultural analysis thread, but I've traveled a lot and so come in contact with travelers from a lot of countries and cultures. And I read a lot, including travel and expat non-fiction. Americans don't travel much outside of the US and don't get much news from outside the US either, so we have to make an effort to look for other information sources and actually interact with other cultures if we want to actually know more about how the rest of the world functions.

I've noticed that Americans are not accepting of each other, let alone other cultures. Brits, coming from an imperialistic culture, can get stressed similarly to Americans but not as much, but Brits tend to be more accepting and tolerant of their friends and family, even when they're being assholes. Americans get offended and quit talking to everyone. People get really irritated with Israelis, too. In my experience, their culture is very unique among cultures. Latinos are very family oriented, even when there's abuse. It blows Latinos minds that I travel alone, live alone, no husband and no kids.

And this brings me around to @Nessie's comment:

You seem like a very idealistic person. I think you put a lot more in a concept of honesty that the basic idea of people saying what they really think all the time that I thought of. Beautiful, but utopic idea.

I am idealistic. I've never fit in well because of it, whether with my family or or other hierarchical social structures. I don't have the power to effect the changes to bring my beautiful and utopic ideas/ideals into wide practice (thank you for seeing them as such), but while many call me an uppity bitch and want to knock me down for them, or simply dismiss me, there are some who hear me, who think about what I say, and say, "I hadn't thought of that" or "she's got a point." Rarely, someone will even take on some of my ways when they see the benefit. And of course I am imperfect, and I have to laugh at myself and my seriousness, or else I'll turn into a tyrant who tries to control everyone because I believe my way is best and I am the best.

No expectation of anyone to read the rest of this (or anything I write, really), but this got me to thinking...

Idealists and other outliers who stick to their principles in spite of the flows of the world I'm frustrated with stand out, sometimes get imprisoned, sometimes beaten and killed, and sometimes inspire actual change, bit by bit, change that may become de rigeur long after they're gone, such as Copernicus's understanding that the world revolves around the sun. He challenged the priveledged perspective of the Catholic Church. I challenge priveledged perspectives of dominance and...privilege, entitlement, including my own entitlement. My only hero is Marcus Aurelius, who didn't want to be emperor, but who dedicated himself to justice and to serving, not to dominating and the trappings of luxury and comfort. He was stressed, too. Even when advised to do so by his Stoic mentor, he wouldn't take vacations, he was conscientiously caught up in his work of justice and serving society. He had some Stoic tranquilo in acceptance of his role, but he was not tranquilo. I read his mediations and he was constantly working on not being offended, guarding against his ego, and being brutally honest with himself. The Roman empire flourished under his conscientious leadership -- not rule.

 

[XYZ]

I've been thinking about this thread. I hear your pain... it's the pain of a pure heart letting out a cry that pierces through all the layers of blackness in this world.

I keep imagining Munch must have experienced some of that very same angst you describe, when he heard a scream ripping through the entire world.

He painted your pain in red, orange, blue, black and white. May you find a little comfort in the beautiful (if dreadful) horizon where the blue-black meets the red-orange. I know I do. It's almost hypnotic if you stare at it long enough.

At least art is always here for us, even when all other lights fade.

I hope today you feel a little more light-hearted