Discussion What is a pro-lifer?

[Abyssal]

The term gets thrown around a lot, and I think many have a different definition of what it means to be pro-life.

What is a pro lifer to you?

 

[joydivision47]

In my view, a pro lifer is someone who tells you to just "seek help" or "go get therapy" despite the fact you've exhausted all your available options already and simply wish to ctb.

 

[betternever2havbeen]

They want to take all peaceful methods away leaving only painful ones in the hope you get trapped here until you just give up and live instead.

 

[thewalkingdread]

People love to give stupid, inaccurate, names to things they have a very poor comprehension of or a very bad take on — as if they were Elon Musk naming his children x-something.

So... meaningless, inaccurate, names take over the public debate in order to satiate our pettyful, stupid, inclinations to tribalisms.

And terms/expressions/dichotomies like "Left vs Right", "Western civilization vs Barbarians", "American Dream vs Communism", "Pro-life vs Pro-death" and etc, rise into — undue — prominence, in accordance to the specifics of the political issue, or debate, being entertained.

At this point in time, It's no surprise to anyone that the "Pro-life vs Pro-death" tribalism has it's origins on the abortion/women's rights issue — not the right-to-die one.

This dichotomy is essentially anchored in a fundamental, intellectual, dishonesty. Regardless of what specific religion they subscribe to, most religious people believe that life is a "sacred miracle" that "begins" at conception.

(This belief is not warranted in any way whatsoever by any scientific evidence or serious philosophical scrutiny... and it's plagued with gross, misleading, conceptual failures — no pun intended.)

But the kernel of the dishonesty in here, in the abortion issue, lies in the fact that abortionists aren't "pro-death" at all.

This is a gross, straw man fallacy, where the "pro-life" advocates — being manipulative as usual — are frequently using the expression "pro-death" as an eufemistic, polite, way of suggesting that his opponents' stances are "pro-murdering babies" — the horrible, hidious, despicable crime we call 'infanticide'.

Aborting an embryo, however, or a fetus at an early stage of development, isn't in any way equivalent to purpusefully causing the death — i.e. killing — a fully developed, concious, human baby. They're two different things, with two very much distinct moral statuses.

There is also a much foggy scenario when we stop to think about how we use the word 'death' in polyvalent, ambiguous — and arbitrary! — ways.

Virtually all people would agree that it's an absolute sheer nonsense to ascribe any practical, moral or legal, value to the "genocidal" aspect of millions and millions of bacteria dying, when someone takes antibiotics, for instance. But — suddenly! — an irrelevant cluster of cells inside a woman's womb provokes a hysterical war between people, much like the one protagonized by Greeks and Trojans.

If you think about it, the real "pro-death" advocate is, conversly, the self-proclaimed "pro-lifer". Because it's only when "pro-lifers" get what they want — i.e. more babies being born "into life" — that the word 'death' will assume the most serious, relevant, meaning we attach to it.

TLDR: "Pro-life vs Pro-death" is a false dichotomy. Being "pro-death" has no real meaning on it's own, since it's somewhat nonsensical to think that people can choose to die or not to die once they're born. Being "pro-life" entails being "pro-death" because the death of a person is necessarily determined at birth....whilst being "pro-choice", strictly speaking, does not entail anything related with death.

 

[Specific_Milk]

I use the term to refer to those who won't consider the idea that some people would prefer death to life. Their incapacity to comprehend the notion that suicide might be a valid and indeed rational position is exactly that, an incapacity on their part. The resulting behaviour of these people is therefore, an unrelenting and forceful attitude against people who are suicidal. They want to prevent suicide by every mean, not considering any ethical or moral arguments of the position of suicide. They would rather hook terminally ill patients on drugs and keep them just on the brink of life while depriving them of their dignity and ignoring their suffering. The same goes with people who simply desire to exercise their fundamental right to die (like myself). They push us to go to therapy and pedal empty platitudes as if we haven't already considered them ourselves. They treat us like children instead of mature adults capable of making rational decisions for ourselves. Who are they to tell other people they can't die? What in their judgements is superior to our judgements of our own lives?

 

[MatrixPrisoner]

To me, in relation to this forum, it's defined as anyone that deems suicide as an illogical, stupid or selfish option for those who wish to eliminate a painful, hopeless and insufferable existence.

 

[bangimout]

Some people may have different views on this subject but to me, a pro-lifer is someone who judges people who feel the need to talk about death. They always try to make you feel like you're mentally ill for thinking about suicide. If you tell them that many things are wrong with the world, they'll shut you down. Oh and they're the people who'll try to put you in psych wards. In short, pretty much anyone who doesn't see death as something peaceful is a pro-lifer.

 

[thewalkingdread]

I think both the anti-natalism and the right-to-die claims are, essentially, the same "pro-choice predicament".

I'm an anti-natalist and a right-to-die advocate because I am — above all else — pro-choice (and against unnecessary suffering, but that goes without saying it).

The anti-natalism claim deals with the lack of consent argument — pro-choice — from the POV of the infant to be born;

The right-to-die claim deals with the libertarian argument — pro-choice — from the POV of people that, for whatever reflected, rational reason, want to terminate their life.

(So being pro-choice is the real background issue between anti-natalism and the right-to-die.)

And when we take a good, sober, look at the state of the world, we conclude that only a small minority of people really cares about being pro-choice.

 

[todiefor]

I think to me, someone who cannot possibly accept that ctb can be a logical choice, or a choice at all, and is righteous about it, and consider any alternatives as weak and wrong and want to change your opinion to their supposedly righteous one

 

[EvisceratedJester]

To me, the term refers to those opposed to people having the right to end their lives. I view them as basically the same as those who are pro-life when it comes to abortions. They are against the idea of people having the right to do as they please with their own bodies, but some of them will sometimes make special exceptions in order to not look bad and/or feel bad about themselves. In this case, that would be referring to when they claim that euthanasia should be legal for those who are terminally, but should be hands off to the rest of the public.

They constantly throw around empty platitudes, recommend things that don't work or aren't always accessible to a lot of people (therapy, suicide prevention hotlines, telling others to talk to their friends and family about being suicidal, etc), and act as though preventing access to safe and peaceful suicide options is going to magically prevent people from attempting it.

Some of them will even use their religion to justify their views (specially Christian and Muslims).

While a lot of them have good intentions, they are generally very egocentric, only thinking about their own feelings and experiences while ignoring that those feelings and experiences aren't something that applies to everyone (as in suicidal people). This is especially apparent in pro-lifers who've also attempted suicide before. They assume that since their life situation improved that means that that will happen to everyone. They think that if they were suicidal as a result of mental illness and their mental illness has improved and they got better, then that must apply to everyone. This comment under Tantacrul's video, in reference to other commenters, sums this up pretty well:

 

[thewalkingdread]

It's actually quite simple to understand...

Pro-lifers are people who assume that life has, somehow, intrinsic and unconditional positive net value. And, because of this, they are always favorable of creating new life (natalism) or extending it until it's no longer possible (anti-choice). The will of the living being is rarely worth any serious consideration, if any at all.

 

[Celerity]

I define it very narrowly to only those who wish to forcefully prevent the suicide of independent adults. Discouraging someone from being hasty in making that final decision is not in itself pro-life, or at least not to the degree that I find it oppressive. It's the paternalism of forcing your viewpoint on others that's important in my view.

 

[BornByGhosts]

a miserable little pile of empty platitudes

 

[rozeske]

Someone who has been fortunate enough to be dealt a good card in life that made them happy go lucky fucking ray of sunshine

 

[UKscotty]

People throw the term around so much that its lost any meaning here.

To me I'd day anyone who appreciates life is pro-life. After all the vast majority of people enjoy life.

Once we accept that we are the defective ones, we become a lot less grumpy and hateful towards everyone else. We can then divert energy towards what we actually want, CTB.

 

[pthnrdnojvsc]

To me a prolifer is a human who thinks "life is good".

They also think suicidal ideation is irrational and mental illness. They think " how could someone rational want to leave something so good sacred and important as the gift of life? They must be mentally ill and should get help , yeah lock them up in a mental hospital until they start thinking right and understanding life is a precious gift"

So of course they are also pro-natalist. "Why not have a baby since life is so good" they think.

But I've never gotten an answer to what is the objective meaning and purpose of life . Also why should I continue living since I'm going to die anyway?

I worked in a nursing home they have no idea what hell is going to get them in old age. Imo most people are brainwashed into to thinking life including old age which is part of life is some kind of picnic .

I think life is bad . I agree with most of what is in antinatalist promortalist and pessimist nihilist philosophies.
I also agree with evolution. I don't see how a human is just not a cell , a DNA chemical reaction , a machine. Humans evolved from a cell , a DNA chemical reaction. How can the children differ from the parent, the eukaryotic cell?

Why is it that we have almost the same DNA as other things? - The Tech Interactive

www.thetech.org

When I think about it logically though it doesn't matter to me what another human does in their own life regarding whether they want to live or die. But it's live for a while only because we all will die anyway. It's their business what a person does in their own life with regarding wanting to live or die.

This is an anti suicide world . Any who says they want to kill themselves Is locked up in a mental hospital. Anyone who says they want to live even if disabled is applauded. There is no balance

 

[Forever Sleep]

Outside in the real world- Someone who thinks people should live- and shouldn't consider suicide- with no or very few exceptions. Probably a natilist too.

On here- I would say we have a mixture. The true pro-lifers are usually outspoken and get turfed off by the mods when they overstep the mark. I'd say the majority of people here are pro-choice but we have pro-choice with a pro-life bias and pro-choice with a promortalist bias and then, there are some promortalists who think death is the best solution for all life- no matter if that lifeform agrees!

I think some of the time- the pro-choice people with a pro-life bias get labelled pro-lifers here because they suggest something relating to recovery. I'd say that wasn't accurate. A pro-lifer would insist that the person do all they could to recover and they probably wouldn't let the issue drop. Most people here are simply making suggestions- and most will back down if those suggestions aren't welcomed.

Most people I think respond in sympathy to the tone of the thread. Someone seemingly asking for advice will receive it! Some of that advice may be pro-life. Doesn't mean the person suggesting it is insisting the person do it- they likely would respect their choice not to at the end of the day. Obviously- some people don't want advice or pro-life suggestions- which is fair enough but quite often- they will say this in the thread and I think the majority of people will respect that.

But- people tend to use it as an insult here to allude that that person has rigid, authorative thinking when- they most probably don't. Most genuine pro-lifers I imagine would either start picking fights with everyone because they wouldn't be able to accept the free thinking here or- they would probably simply leave. I don't think you can have rigid thinking here and not be triggered by some posts.

That goes the same for promortalists too though. That thinking is authorative and rigid in it's own way- so, they get irked by any life affirming suggestion. I think they would actually prefer it if the forum was all in favour of suicide rather than being a place to discuss suicide- that discussion can include- maybe I shouldn't do it. I'm not sure I want to do it. What are my alternatives? Those sorts of questions will result in some pro-life answers. Doesn't mean the person giving them is pro-life- they are simply making suggestions.

 

[thewalkingdread]

Once we accept that we are the defective ones

If you think you are defective, good for you!

But stop calling other people defective. Suicidal people are not "defective".

This is actually a good example that the Pro-life rethoric/gaslighting bullshit is ubiquitously disguised in this forum!

 

[Rhizomorph1]

People love to give stupid, inaccurate, names to things they have a very poor comprehension of or a very bad take on — as if they were Elon Musk naming his children x-something.

So... meaningless, inaccurate, names take over the public debate in order to satiate our pettyful, stupid, inclinations to tribalisms.

And terms/expressions/dichotomies like "Left vs Right", "Western civilization vs Barbarians", "American Dream vs Communism", "Pro-life vs Pro-death" and etc, rise into — undue — prominence, in accordance to the specifics of the political issue, or debate, being entertained.

At this point in time, It's no surprise to anyone that the "Pro-life vs Pro-death" tribalism has it's origins on the abortion/women's rights issue — not the right-to-die one.

This dichotomy is essentially anchored in a fundamental, intellectual, dishonesty. Regardless of what specific religion they subscribe to, most religious people believe that life is a "sacred miracle" that "begins" at conception.

(This belief is not warranted in any way whatsoever by any scientific evidence or serious philosophical scrutiny... and it's plagued with gross, misleading, conceptual failures — no pun intended.)

But the kernel of the dishonesty in here, in the abortion issue, lies in the fact that abortionists aren't "pro-death" at all.

This is a gross, straw man fallacy, where the "pro-life" advocates — being manipulative as usual — are frequently using the expression "pro-death" as an eufemistic, polite, way of suggesting that his opponents' stances are "pro-murdering babies" — the horrible, hidious, despicable crime we call 'infanticide'.

Aborting an embryo, however, or a fetus at an early stage of development, isn't in any way equivalent to purpusefully causing the death — i.e. killing — a fully developed, concious, human baby. They're two different things, with two very much distinct moral statuses.

There is also a much foggy scenario when we stop to think about how we use the word 'death' in polyvalent, ambiguous — and arbitrary! — ways.

Virtually all people would agree that it's an absolute sheer nonsense to ascribe any practical, moral or legal, value to the "genocidal" aspect of millions and millions of bacteria dying, when someone takes antibiotics, for instance. But — suddenly! — an irrelevant cluster of cells inside a woman's womb provokes a hysterical war between people, much like the one protagonized by Greeks and Trojans.

If you think about it, the real "pro-death" advocate is, conversly, the self-proclaimed "pro-lifer". Because it's only when "pro-lifers" get what they want — i.e. more babies being born "into life" — that the word 'death' will assume the most serious, relevant, meaning we attach to it.

TLDR: "Pro-life vs Pro-death" is a false dichotomy. Being "pro-death" has no real meaning on it's own, since it's somewhat nonsensical to think that people can choose to die or not to die once they're born. Being "pro-life" entails being "pro-death" because the death of a person is necessarily determined at birth....whilst being "pro-choice", strictly speaking, does not entail anything related with death.

Fucking love this assessment.

I vote we get rid of the terms "pro-life" and "pro-death" given their cultural origins and replace it with something akin to "suicide prohibitionist" to get rid of the moral connotations and align it closer with cultural & material realism.

There is no good or bad suicides, like there is no good or bad drugs, etc. there are only our relationship to it, which is deeply personal.

I hate the tribal "my group vs. their group" mentality that I see on this site and in the general public as it prevents diplomacy and discourse that could allow actual fucking oversight and attitudes that could help people like us die peacefully and maybe even protect minors/suicide naive people who are dying prematurely.

I hope this conversation continues and we can evolve beyond out-group prejudices. Although, I see this as somewhat unlikely given that many suicidal people are rightfully angry. Still, anger is usually just grief in disguise and I think it pays to be realistic. "The facts are always friendly" - Carl Rogers.

 

[Twiceler]

There are three things you can watch forever: fire, water, and "pro-choice" people describing "pro-lifers".

 

[kane9191kosugi]

Someone who says BS-tier shit like…

"Hang on. If you work hard, life is going to better"
"You shouldn't ctb, because anyone who has failed at it regrets doing it"
"Your struggles are nothing compared to people living in poor countries" (or anything similar to that nuisance, for example, war-torn countries, people living in WW2, …etc.)
"If you live past that struggle, you will reach the light"
"Your struggles would be so minuscule when you grow older"
"Don't think about it too much, and just fulfill your life to the fullest"

They will use these soft ass, textbook ass, overused, stereotypical labels to basically "reject" your current struggles, and tell you to just "live" for the sake of "surviving". A good chunk of these people won't even give you any legitimate solutions as well.

Basically every mental counselor that I encountered. I bet these textbooks teach you to say the same "pro-life" shit over and over again lol.

 

[FuneralCry]

They are people who are against the right to cease existing and wish to prolong the suffering of others. Pro-lifers are very evil to me, it's insane to hold anti-suicide beliefs in this hellish world where there is no limit as to how much one can suffer. Pro-life is really just pro-suffering, I'm disgusted by delusional humans who wish to imprison us in this existence we never consented to being in until we inevitably cease existing anyway.

 

[Greyscale]

It varies from person to person; it's a spectrum. The more someone values living, just as a basic concept, the harder they will push for others to live, no matter the situation or circumstance.

However, if you're asking about this forum specifically, it feels like it's just a loose, blanket stament used to shut down discussions.

People who are actually, truly, pro-life are banned rather quickly here.

 

[thewalkingdread]

I'd say the majority of people here are pro-choice but we have pro-choice with a pro-life bias

Your remark gets close to what I mean when I say "pro-lifers" are disguised here in this forum spouting pro-life bullshit. They have a pro-life bias whilst suicidal and, therefore, they're suicidal pro-lifers. They're not exactly what I would consider a real "pro-choicer", thought.

Sure, they want their own right-to-die to be respected/allowed to them because they are suicidal, but their "pro-choiceness" ends right there.

Most of them, if not all, are just fine, for instance, with birthing new sentient life — although no one chooses to be born. Because in, the end, if one doesn't like being here, one will always have the choice to easily kill themselves... Right!?

They don't want to spoil the "fun" for all the other "non-defective", "non-suicidal", people out there. They believe things outside their own "suicidal", "defective" mindset are great, healthy and worthy. And they are still hypnotized by the "magical", elusive, hope that the world is filled with "happy" families with some cute human puppies in it.

One of such suicidal pro-lifer even came to this very thread "to say hello" and call suicidal people "defective"... Ain't that some "cute" pro-life biased gaslighting bullshit or do I really have a "defective" brain?!

 

[Forever Sleep]

Your remark gets close to what I mean when I say "pro-lifers" are disguised here in this forum spouting pro-life bullshit. They have a pro-life bias whilst suicidal and, therefore, they're suicidal pro-lifers. They're not exactly what I would consider a real "pro-choicer", thought.

Sure, they want their own right-to-die to be respected/allowed to them because they are suicidal, but their "pro-choiceness" ends right there.

Most of them, if not all, are just fine, for instance, with birthing new sentient life — although no one chooses to be born. Because in, the end, if one doesn't like being here, one will always have the choice to easily kill themselves... Right!?

They don't want to spoil the "fun" for all the other "non-defective", "non-suicidal", people out there. They believe things outside their own "suicidal", "defective" mindset are great, healthy and worthy. And they are still hypnotized by the "magical", elusive, hope that the world is filled with "happy" families with some cute human puppies in it.

One of such suicidal pro-lifer even came to this very thread "to say hello" and call suicidal people "defective"... Ain't that some "cute" pro-life biased gaslighting bullshit or do I really have a "defective" brain?!

I guess it depends on the individual but I wouldn't exactly agree here. It can sound hypocritical- because I agree- most people want their own right to suicide respected. Truth is though- none of us really know one another's story here. It would be kind of sick if we were actively willing one another to die!

I think it's more that we all want the best for one another but most of the time- we don't entirely know what that is. The OP making the thread sometimes doesn't seem to know! It's in those cases that I think the more pro-life sentiments pop up. That's what I'm refering to in terms of pro-choice with pro-life bias. It seems like you had specific members in mind though and I can't comment on that because I don't know who you're refering to.

Take a thread I've just replied to. A member just asked whether suicide is their only option. Would you consider it pro-life to say- 'No- it's not your only option. It's a choice. Things could impove in your life but there sadly aren't guarantees- we all have to make the choice on whether to keep trying.' That's what I said in a nutshell. Not sure what you'd make of that. I'd say that was pro-choice with a pro-life leaning.

 

[KafkaF]

In the context of this forum (rather than abortion) I'd say a pro-lifer is someone who, basically, opposes suicide no matter what and will always consider it a bad choice, a tragedy, always tell you to keep trying, try to talk you out of it, etc. But there is of course a spectrum.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that suicide can be a valid choice. But it isn't always. I do think we should protect people from suicide to a degree and some people should be talked out of it. There are people out there who are going through a rough depression or a difficult situation right now, but who will manage to rise above it and live a long and happy life so long as they get through it. That does happen. I mean, I've heard many stories of even people who've had actual attempts who end up being so happy that they lived. And so we have to try our best to make sure that those people do live.

On the other hand, I don't think this is everyone either. Some people stick it out but never get better or see their life get worse. Their suffering will never disappear and may actually get worse throughout their life. With those people I don't necessarily ADVOCATE for suicide, but I do think it's an understandable choice in that case.

Fundamentally, I believe in self-determination but within confines. If, for example, you have some teenager going through a rough break-up who impulsively makes the decision to try and end things, then yeah, I think they should be prevented from doing that if possible. But if you've got a fully grown adult, who's tried his best to make their life better for years, who's gone through all sorts of treatments, who's consistently suffering or hopeless and who's really though this through (aka the suicide is not impulse) then I think it can be a valid decision.

And that's, in my opinion, what separates pro-lifers from me. Is that I think suicide can be a valid decision sometimes, albeit a last resort decision. Whereas pro-lifers will never accept suicide as a solution no matter what and will always seek to prevent it and restrict people's ability to do it.

 

[oddetoad]

Someone who hasnt woken up to the fact that they are in the depths of Hell.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

I think a pro life person is a person who defends life at all (or almost all) costs and who believes that life is better than non existence

 

[IWishToDie]

The term gets thrown around a lot, and I think many have a different definition of what it means to be pro-life.

What is a pro lifer to you?

Somebody who believes that nobody should be able to end their life early, regardless of the circumstance.

 

[Slow_Farewell]

The term gets thrown around a lot, and I think many have a different definition of what it means to be pro-life.

What is a pro lifer to you?

Good question. I always thought in the context of people who were like..anti-abortion but.. apparently there's a different meaning here.