Discussion What if mandated reporting was made optional or abolished?

[TAW122]

We all know that there are certain professions that require mandatory reporting for abuse, harm, or anything illegal or otherwise required by law or even by their professional organization (their accrediting board). However, this thread asks the questions "If mandatory reporting was not legally required or made optional."

If mandatory reporting was not legally required or made optional:
1. Would there be more people who would perhaps respect the right to die (if only for the individual but involves no other person(s).)?
2. Would more people be more honest about their suicidal ideation and various topics if there wasn't the threat of consequences stemming from mandatory reporting?

In the recent years, I always wondered perhaps there are some people who "may" be pro-choice but because of their profession and/or otherwise legal obligation, they are required to report, to intervene, to act on certain information or situations that they have knowledge of. These professions include but are not limited to: teachers, clergy members (most but there are exceptions), doctors and medical professionals (including mental health professionals), social workers, law enforcement, caregivers, etc. I used to resent and be bitter against people who say they have to report or intervene in certain situations (when I was a child or even primary school), but after having grown up and understanding that they are legally required to (under the penalty of legal consequences if they didn't) do so, I no longer resent them and understood the reasoning.

This is why I pondered on whether the people that I've come in contact with throughout my life may perhaps be respecting and understanding of the pro-choice stance if it were not for their profession. Do you people find that plausible or not? Also, I don't believe people would have a legal duty or obligation to intervene if it wasn't made legally mandatory, besides just from personal choice or their own morals and ethics.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Excellent post. Yes, I absolutely agree- if there wasn't such a culture based on liability, I think people would definitely feel more free to express how they truly felt and the person listening would be able to give a reasoned response without panicking and calling the authorities.

Also, I have seen many posts on here where people were actually turned away from therapists etc because their problems were too severe- more like they don't want the responsibility or liability if things go wrong. Some people seem literally to have been passed pillar to post by multiple 'professionals' who clearly just want to wash their hands of anything too messy.

Not only that, we wouldn't require mountains of paperwork (although- guess it's online now) for every interaction we have- so more time could be spent actually helping people (rather than documenting it.) Not to say ALL paperwork is superfluous but I've known long term practicing teachers who highly criticise how much paperwork there is now. I'm sure the it's the same for other professions.

 

[squidhead]

Everything about suicide has been made completely taboo in our current society, not only that but anything related to it is so stigmatized that not only is it illegal, but it automatically strips the person involved of any rights.
You cannot truthfully expect people to seek help or speak about their issues in an honest way, if the moment they do so you report them to the next x authority or system in which they are forcefully locked up and have no say in what happens to them, but its left to whatever their mental health "professional" dictates.
Or you finally decide to open up to a friend and they call the cops on you thinking they`re helping and you`ll be thankful for it later on. No, I wont. Thats betrayal ffs.
Let me emphasize that, cops are called on that person to forcefully lock them up against their will and they lose control of their own life which is in the hands someone else from that point forward.
How is this NOT considered extremely fucked up and barbaric by anyone else, except us? How can someone look at this situation and truly believe "yeah, we`re helping this person here, they`re so lucky we intervened"?

 

[TAW122]

Excellent post. Yes, I absolutely agree- if there wasn't such a culture based on liability, I think people would definitely feel more free to express how they truly felt and the person listening would be able to give a reasoned response without panicking and calling the authorities.

Also, I have seen many posts on here where people were actually turned away from therapists etc because their problems were too severe- more like they don't want the responsibility or liability if things go wrong. Some people seem literally to have been passed pillar to post by multiple 'professionals' who clearly just want to wash their hands of anything too messy.

Not only that, we wouldn't require mountains of paperwork (although- guess it's online now) for every interaction we have- so more time could be spent actually helping people (rather than documenting it.) Not to say ALL paperwork is superfluous but I've known long term practicing teachers who highly criticise how much paperwork there is now. I'm sure the it's the same for other professions.

Well said, and that is true, I feel like if there wasn't the stigma and potential consequences of admitting to suicidal thoughts or even wanting (planning, having the means, and intent) to CTB, people will be more honest. I do wonder if there would still be therapists, mental health professionals, and medical professionals who would otherwise just say "sure we can do that (after obtaining patient's consent and a waiting period)" if there was no legal liability, no legal or professional consequences that come from it?

Everything about suicide has been made completely taboo in our current society, not only that but anything related to it is so stigmatized that not only is it illegal, but it automatically strips the person involved of any rights.
You cannot truthfully expect people to seek help or speak about their issues in an honest way, if the moment they do so you report them to the next x authority or system in which they are forcefully locked up and have no say in what happens to them, but its left to whatever their mental health "professional" dictates.
Or you finally decide to open up to a friend and they call the cops on you thinking they`re helping and you`ll be thankful for it later on. No, I wont. Thats betrayal ffs.
Let me emphasize that, cops are called on that person to forcefully lock them up against their will and they lose control of their own life which is in the hands someone else from that point forward.
How is this NOT considered extremely fucked up and barbaric by anyone else, except us? How can someone look at this situation and truly believe "yeah, we`re helping this person here, they`re so lucky we intervened"?

I feel like in the current state of society, a lot of people are like we are helping this person and we feel good, we did a good thing, regardless of what happens to the person. Whether the person ends up worse (with their existing problems still around, but now with their dignity and rights violated, billed for services they did not want to being with, and now with a mark on their medical record which affects their life in various ways they never anticipated) or not, they seem to not care, which seems like an out of sight, out of mind ( see no evil hear no evil or similar quotes) thing for them. In other previous topics and threads I believe I may have mentioned that that is how a lot of people feel, it's all about them (and their ego), and not about the person being helped.

 

[yyytry]

This is the conversation that needs to be happening more.

The world would be a different place completely if there weren't liability games like this being played.

 

[SamTam33]

In regards to point 1, removing the legal obligation is step one, but the response when it is reported would still need to be examined.

Even though it's not legally required, if cops show up when reported - people will still tattle.

I'm cynical af, but I'm certain people get a dopamine hit when they report stuff. See the millions of 'Karen' videos as Exhibit 1.

If they can make a phone call and a cop responds, there will be a faction of people who'll voluntarily participate. Probably something to do with the ego, as usual.

People loooove preventing something they deem as bad. Be it saving a cat from a burning building or stopping someone from committing suicide. The general public eats these "feel-good" stories up and further fuels their actions.

The outcome of point 2 will be predicated by the potential response from point 1.

If there are no consequences whatsoever to speaking freely about suicide, people will absolutely be more willing to share.

 

[TAW122]

This is the conversation that needs to be happening more.

The world would be a different place completely if there weren't liability games like this being played.

Indeed, that is true.

In regards to point 1, removing the legal obligation is step one, but the response when it is reported would still need to be examined.

Even though it's not legally required, if cops show up when reported - people will still tattle.

I'm cynical af, but I'm certain people get a dopamine hit when they report stuff. See the millions of 'Karen' videos as Exhibit 1.

If they can make a phone call and a cop responds, there will be a faction of people who'll voluntarily participate. Probably something to do with the ego, as usual.

People loooove preventing something they deem as bad. Be it saving a cat from a burning building or stopping someone from committing suicide. The general public eats these "feel-good" stories up and further fuels their actions.

The outcome of point 2 will be predicated by the potential response from point 1.

If there are no consequences whatsoever to speaking freely about suicide, people will absolutely be more willing to share.

I think abolishing (or even made optional) rather than a legal requirement would be a first step to helping people who may otherwise be willing to seek help to seek help and eventual destigmatization of the topic around suicide and death. You are correct that there will still be people who tattle because of the dopamine hit (feels good feeling) that people get from reporting and 'thinking that they potentially saved another life that isn't theirs to save'. So yes, after the first step of making mandated reporting optional (or better yet abolished altogether), the next step would be change the way reports of suicide are handled legally and civilly.

This is where making involuntary hospitalization and forced treatments unconstitutional, basically getting rid of them altogether and make help an voluntary thing rather than forced/mandatory imposition, which is a harder goal to achieve because one still has to get past the 'implied consent' issue that many legalists and ethicists like to throw around, 'the person implicitly consents to being treated' or something along those lines.

 

[yyytry]

In regards to point 1, removing the legal obligation is step one, but the response when it is reported would still need to be examined.

Even though it's not legally required, if cops show up when reported - people will still tattle.

I'm cynical af, but I'm certain people get a dopamine hit when they report stuff. See the millions of 'Karen' videos as Exhibit 1.

If they can make a phone call and a cop responds, there will be a faction of people who'll voluntarily participate. Probably something to do with the ego, as usual.

People loooove preventing something they deem as bad. Be it saving a cat from a burning building or stopping someone from committing suicide. The general public eats these "feel-good" stories up and further fuels their actions.

The outcome of point 2 will be predicated by the potential response from point 1.

If there are no consequences whatsoever to speaking freely about suicide, people will absolutely be more willing to share.

Karens/Exhibit 1:
I'm frequently threatened by my boyfriend who says he will call the cops on me if I'm too sad/disagree with him/hit myself in my room.

And my own brother used it to try to sabotage my career. "She's being upset or unstable again, please come take her away"
The cops snapped my back in one of those exchanges. And to this day I can't get justice. Even though I went to the ER same day after telling the bullshit shrinks at the facility what happened.

(This is just to say that beyond the Karen's who want that dopamine hit of do gooderism…there are people who use mental health situations as a way to control vulnerable people and manipulate them)

 

[firesteak]

Every time i go to the physician ive been asked about my mental state. I always say im fine. I fear being committed to the psyche ward. My mom told horror stories of her times there. We need an outlet to talk about about suicide without fear of being locked up or the stigma that society places on us. Thats how i ended up here. I feel better knowing that there are people like me out there. Knowing i can talk and not be locked up. I've tried to talk to my wife and she threatened to call police, wtf. Suicide should not be a taboo subject. I feel places like this help us cope while we are still here. Just the fact i can talk without the fear of consequences. You cant help people that dont want help. If someone want to ctb society should have a way to help them do it painless and peacefully.

 

[Wannagonow]

Absolutely agree that as adults we should be able to talk to others (including psych professionals) without fear of a cop car pulling up to the front of our house. Each time that happened to me all the neighbors were outside and watched me get carted off. Nice. Thanks that helped. It finally sunk in that I can't ever share what's really in my head and hope to get support. My answer is always "fine". Mandated reporting absolves mental health professionals of actually doing their jobs. It's an excuse for them to keep their distance and not do the actual "real" work. Lucky us.

 

[LastFlowers]

Absolutely agree that as adults we should be able to talk to others (including psych professionals) without fear of a cop car pulling up to the front of our house. Each time that happened to me all the neighbors were outside and watched me get carted off. Nice. Thanks that helped. It finally sunk in that I can't ever share what's really in my head and hope to get support. My answer is always "fine". Mandated reporting absolves mental health professionals of actually doing their jobs. It's an excuse for them to keep their distance and not do the actual "real" work. Lucky us.

And everybody has cameras attached to their phones and doorbells now.
So our humiliation could easily be immortalized on top of it. Publicly.
As if the databases full of "professional's" biased interpretations of our words and feelings aren't bad enough.
There are so many scare tactics to keep us in line and shut us the fuck up..and then they wonder why we finally snap after our minds and bodies simply cannot handle the internalization and compartmentalizing of our woes, which we only ever implemented in order to avoid what they threatened us with.
These people actually foster insanity, which they then claim to "treat".

Does a cornered animal act calm and composed?
How do they expect us to react..

Everything about suicide has been made completely taboo in our current society, not only that but anything related to it is so stigmatized that not only is it illegal, but it automatically strips the person involved of any rights.
You cannot truthfully expect people to seek help or speak about their issues in an honest way, if the moment they do so you report them to the next x authority or system in which they are forcefully locked up and have no say in what happens to them, but its left to whatever their mental health "professional" dictates.
Or you finally decide to open up to a friend and they call the cops on you thinking they`re helping and you`ll be thankful for it later on. No, I wont. Thats betrayal ffs.
Let me emphasize that, cops are called on that person to forcefully lock them up against their will and they lose control of their own life which is in the hands someone else from that point forward.
How is this NOT considered extremely fucked up and barbaric by anyone else, except us? How can someone look at this situation and truly believe "yeah, we`re helping this person here, they`re so lucky we intervened"?

Yes, I agree.

Living under issues that are seen as taboo to speak about or even suffer with is just incredibly oppressive and defeating..maddening, surreal.

Most of my issues are just layered with a sense of 'taboo' and I cannot stand it.
Suicide is just the conclusion of them all.
I daydream of being able to at least trade my problems for ones that are permitted to be openly lamented about..and with a sense of community and sympathy and validation.
Some of the worst things in life are those that others deem too difficult to open their eyes and minds to..and it makes it so fucking god awful for those of us who have to live them.
Life becomes a fucked up chess game of slowly inching a piece across the board, only to have to surreptitiously or swiftly yank it back..testing the waters to see if we can even so much as vaguely allude to or allow inference of our troubles..some of which are ironically very, very obvious.

Every time i go to the physician ive been asked about my mental state. I always say im fine. I fear being committed to the psyche ward. My mom told horror stories of her times there. We need an outlet to talk about about suicide without fear of being locked up or the stigma that society places on us. Thats how i ended up here. I feel better knowing that there are people like me out there. Knowing i can talk and not be locked up. I've tried to talk to my wife and she threatened to call police, wtf. Suicide should not be a taboo subject. I feel places like this help us cope while we are still here. Just the fact i can talk without the fear of consequences. You cant help people that dont want help. If someone want to ctb society should have a way to help them do it painless and peacefully.

You mean every time you go to a regular non-psych physician?

This is quite bad..but I avoid going to almost any sort of medical doctor now, even though my issues require them, among the list of reasons why are because I'm just so sick of the egos, the dismissiveness (sometimes right alongside acknowledging that you're fucked..bizarre), the heinous bullying of patients that is grade school level cruel, the lack of respect for privacy laws, their constant concern for the state of their career/reputation/job far above their concern for you and what is clearly affecting you, and the absolutely invasive and abominable presence of the mental health narrative that has no business in the other fields of medicine/surgery or the offices their patients step into.

Doesn't matter what your issue is, if you seem "too" bothered by it, if you word things the wrong way, if you express things the wrong way, if they can't figure out how to help you, if they are unwilling to help you, if they find you tedious, if you tear up, if they consider your own concern for yourself and your well being a liability- if they don't trust themselves or have the skills to alleviate what has led to your concerns…all of that and more..they will opt to suggest or defer you to psych related 'professionals'..or they will merely add the subtext.
I have seen so many people experience this..with everything from all types of chronic or sudden pain, eye issues, cosmetic concerns, gynecological abnormalities, even bleeding out of your orifices..everything under the sun..the psych referral (or similar) can become the trump card and the conversation ender for a clueless, slighted or self-preserving physician.
Must be a relief for them.
Most don't seem ready to send you to the ward themselves or anything but you never know.
Still, it doesn't exactly invite patients to want to continue to try to find a solution to their physical problems. It just leads them to give up.
Plus it will even scare some people to avoid going to the ER for emergencies.
I won't go.
Then again, I have a death wish lol
But some medical emergencies won't kill you..they'll just make your situation worse when untreated.

Years and years ago I had an experience where I had to go to the ER for what they ended up thinking was possible pancreatitis or appendicitis (I honestly cannot remember which, they were preparing me for surgery but then it turned out to be something much less severe..although they did put me on morphine) and that somehow turned into an utter shit show with psychologists involved (who then cleared me to leave, only for nurses to then stick their nose in and try to make me stay..unreal..and what happened next was straight out of a movie. A wealthier person would have surely sued for what ended up occurring).
Yet that situation didn't even stop me from going to the doctor when need be, but eventually that too became a problem.

The authority of the mental health system and the public perception of it..those with hero complexes, etc..it's too much.
They have more power and reach than any other entity and the least amount of sound science/effectiveness/patient satisfaction to back it up.
Talk about crazy.

You don't even have to be another medical professional to call them up to lend you a favor.
Don't like someone?
Call the cops on them for a wellness check.
No questions asked. No proof needed.
Just make something up..tell them the person said they're going to kill themselves..good odds you will land that person in the ward.
Ain't life grand?

 

[TAW122]

Karens/Exhibit 1:
I'm frequently threatened by my boyfriend who says he will call the cops on me if I'm too sad/disagree with him/hit myself in my room.

And my own brother used it to try to sabotage my career. "She's being upset or unstable again, please come take her away"
The cops snapped my back in one of those exchanges. And to this day I can't get justice. Even though I went to the ER same day after telling the bullshit shrinks at the facility what happened.

(This is just to say that beyond the Karen's who want that dopamine hit of do gooderism…there are people who use mental health situations as a way to control vulnerable people and manipulate them)

That's awful and another reason why mental health calls really need real substantiation as well as accountability in the field. The fact that they can lock people up without objective evidence and/or other overreach in authority is disgusting. I always seem them like the modern day Inquisitor (back in the days where religion and the church were in power).

Every time i go to the physician ive been asked about my mental state. I always say im fine. I fear being committed to the psyche ward. My mom told horror stories of her times there. We need an outlet to talk about about suicide without fear of being locked up or the stigma that society places on us. Thats how i ended up here. I feel better knowing that there are people like me out there. Knowing i can talk and not be locked up. I've tried to talk to my wife and she threatened to call police, wtf. Suicide should not be a taboo subject. I feel places like this help us cope while we are still here. Just the fact i can talk without the fear of consequences. You cant help people that dont want help. If someone want to ctb society should have a way to help them do it painless and peacefully.

Absolutely on point, and I'm glad places like this exist. I believe SaSu saved many more people than the vanilla suicide prevention organizations that give a false sense of security. I never talk about such topics with others as that is only an invitation for invasion of privacy, probing questions into one's life (the least of consequences) to as drastic as forcibly locking someone up against someone's own will (worst consequence), then saddling them with financial ruin (medical bills and what not for something they never 'truly' consented to).

Absolutely agree that as adults we should be able to talk to others (including psych professionals) without fear of a cop car pulling up to the front of our house. Each time that happened to me all the neighbors were outside and watched me get carted off. Nice. Thanks that helped. It finally sunk in that I can't ever share what's really in my head and hope to get support. My answer is always "fine". Mandated reporting absolves mental health professionals of actually doing their jobs. It's an excuse for them to keep their distance and not do the actual "real" work. Lucky us.

The last few sentences really sums it up well. Yes, it's something that protects their careers and jobs, so from that perspective I understand, however, I do believe they need to have criteria added to mandated reporting in addition to additional recourse for patients who believe that their rights have been violated as well as justice. Anyways, yes very true and I'm actual proud of myself for never seeking a MHP (mental health professional) throughout my undergraduate years at uni, (for over 6 years straight - though that is another story for another time).

And everybody has cameras attached to their phones and doorbells now.
So our humiliation could easily be immortalized on top of it. Publicly.
As if the databases full of "professional's" biased interpretations of our words and feelings aren't bad enough.
There are so many scare tactics to keep us in line and shut us the fuck up..and then they wonder why we finally snap after our minds and bodies simply cannot handle the internalization and compartmentalizing of our woes, which we only ever implemented in order to avoid what they threatened us with.
These people actually foster insanity, which they then claim to "treat".

Does a cornered animal act calm and composed?
How do they expect us to react..

Yes, I agree.

Living under issues that are seen as taboo to speak about or even suffer with is just incredibly oppressive and defeating..maddening, surreal.

Most of my issues are just layered with a sense of 'taboo' and I cannot stand it.
Suicide is just the conclusion of them all.
I daydream of being able to at least trade my problems for ones that are permitted to be openly lamented about..and with a sense of community and sympathy and validation.
Some of the worst things in life are those that others deem too difficult to open their eyes and minds to..and it makes it so fucking god awful for those of us who have to live them.
Life becomes a fucked up chess game of slowly inching a piece across the board, only to have to surreptitiously or swiftly yank it back..testing the waters to see if we can even so much as vaguely allude to or allow inference of our troubles..some of which are ironically very, very obvious.

You mean every time you go to a regular non-psych physician?

This is quite bad..but I avoid going to almost any sort of medical doctor now, even though my issues require them, among the list of reasons why are because I'm just so sick of the egos, the dismissiveness (sometimes right alongside acknowledging that you're fucked..bizarre), the heinous bullying of patients that is grade school level cruel, the lack of respect for privacy laws, their constant concern for the state of their career/reputation/job far above their concern for you and what is clearly affecting you, and the absolutely invasive and abominable presence of the mental health narrative that has no business in the other fields of medicine/surgery or the offices their patients step into.

Doesn't matter what your issue is, if you seem "too" bothered by it, if you word things the wrong way, if you express things the wrong way, if they can't figure out how to help you, if they are unwilling to help you, if they find you tedious, if you tear up, if they consider your own concern for yourself and your well being a liability- if they don't trust themselves or have the skills to alleviate what has led to your concerns…all of that and more..they will opt to suggest or defer you to psych related 'professionals'..or they will merely add the subtext.
I have seen so many people experience this..with everything from all types of chronic or sudden pain, eye issues, cosmetic concerns, gynecological abnormalities, even bleeding out of your orifices..everything under the sun..the psych referral (or similar) can become the trump card and the conversation ender for a clueless, slighted or self-preserving physician.
Must be a relief for them.
Most don't seem ready to send you to the ward themselves or anything but you never know.
Still, it doesn't exactly invite patients to want to continue to try to find a solution to their physical problems. It just leads them to give up.
Plus it will even scare some people to avoid going to the ER for emergencies.
I won't go.
Then again, I have a death wish lol
But some medical emergencies won't kill you..they'll just make your situation worse when untreated.

Years and years ago I had an experience where I had to go to the ER for what they ended up thinking was possible pancreatitis or appendicitis (I honestly cannot remember which, they were preparing me for surgery but then it turned out to be something much less severe..although they did put me on morphine) and that somehow turned into an utter shit show with psychologists involved (who then cleared me to leave, only for nurses to then stick their nose in and try to make me stay..unreal..and what happened next was straight out of a movie. A wealthier person would have surely sued for what ended up occurring).
Yet that situation didn't even stop me from going to the doctor when need be, but eventually that too became a problem.

The authority of the mental health system and the public perception of it..those with hero complexes, etc..it's too much.
They have more power and reach than any other entity and the least amount of sound science/effectiveness/patient satisfaction to back it up.
Talk about crazy.

You don't even have to be another medical professional to call them up to lend you a favor.
Don't like someone?
Call the cops on them for a wellness check.
No questions asked. No proof needed.
Just make something up..tell them the person said they're going to kill themselves..good odds you will land that person in the ward.
Ain't life grand?

The cornered animal analogy is perfect to describe the reality of what happens in the current system as it stands. I'm not condoning the animal, but we cannot simply turn a blind eye and ignore nature for nature itself. That is like denying reality. Anyways, I still strongly believe there must be a higher standard of cause (probable/reasonable cause) for an initiator/caller to place a report as well as greater penalties for getting it wrong (be it legal and civil consequences). This is because such a subjective criteria is used to determine someone is a threat to others/themselves and also the overarching consequences of the person being subjected to treatment/called upon.