What does a person realistically lose by ctb?

[Ambivalent1]

1) You lose your remaining years, which could span decades. Whether those decades are good or bad is relatively unknown unless you're on a particular trajectory due to health issues that can't be resolved.

2) "Why should I fear death?
If I am, then death is not.
If Death is, then I am not."
-Epicurus

If there is nothing after death, then one's life, no matter how limited, is equal to a life long-lived and well-lived.


What answers would you give for the question above?

There's three lectures I've found that discuss suicide. They're part of a series on Death.

PHIL 176 - Lecture 24 - Suicide, Part I: The Rationality of Suicide | Open Yale Courses

oyc.yale.edu

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Sure but ctb cant deprive my future self of anything, because if i did ctb tonight, my future selves past at that point wont exist to experience any feeling of deprivation. Also, if I'm dead, i never have desire to be alive again; whereas if i remained alive, even if i were to experience an interlude of being glad to be alive ( which seems rather unlikely), there's always a risk of an adverse turn of fortune that will cause me to be desperate to be dead again.

 

[UKscotty]

We just deprive ourself of the opportunity to recover I guess. I guess all of us have some hope that can can still recover else we'd have found a way to CTB.

I have been fighting for 25 years and it takes it toll.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

I guess all of us have some hope that can can still recover else we'd have found a way to CTB.

id say some not all, since ctb is something that may take time to do, others have to deal with fear of it or even guilt over what their actions may cause which is not the same as ALL of us having some faint hope to recover.

 

[Ambivalent1]

We just deprive ourself of the opportunity to recover I guess. I guess all of us have some hope that can can still recover else we'd have found a way to CTB.

I have been fighting for 25 years and it takes it toll.

I'm on the recovery path, but I don't think recovery is likely for me after years of seeing therapists, psychiatrists, and doctors. It's hard to accept I made years of effort and still failed. Reminds of the quote from the Captain in Star Trek. "It is possible to commit no mistakes and still lose. That is not a weakness; that is life."

 

[Meteora]

I think the hard part is not to know if life will become better. In a depressiv state one cannot imagine things to turn to the better. Still there is somewhere the awareness or hope that life turns out to be ok.

2) "Why should I fear death?
If I am, then death is not.
If Death is, then I am not."
-Epicurus

Very true and very pragmatic, too. Its struggle understanding the abstraction of these two sentences emotionally, though

 

[vak]

What I will miss most is the unsatisfied curiosity - we might discover aliens, new technologies, settle on different planets. I'm pretty sure I won't experience something I would be madly excited about.

 

[Ambivalent1]

I think the hard part is not to know if life will become better. In a depressiv state one cannot imagine things to turn to the better. Still there is somewhere the awareness or hope that life turns out to be ok.

Very true and very pragmatic, too. Its struggle understanding the abstraction of these two sentences emotionally, though

I think if a person only struggles with depression that there absolutely is hope.

The problem with the quote is it doesn't take dying into account. If death occurred by randomly falling to the ground like a broken machine that ran out of power, then death wouldn't bother me.

 

[Meteora]

Depression is a symptom not a disease.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Depression is a symptom not a disease.

A symptom of what disease?

 

[UKscotty]

id say some not all, since ctb is something that may take time to do, others have to deal with fear of it or even guilt over what their actions may cause which is not the same as ALL of us having some faint hope to recover.

Not sure I agree, if someone truly believed life is hopeless and there was nothing after life, technically nothing after CTB would matter.

I chose to believe there is still some sliver of hope for us all.

 

[Meteora]

A symptom of what disease?

No disease. Depression is NO disease. It is a symptom. Meaning there s always much more to a depression, underlying problems.

 

[ctbcat]

their life :p sorry, first thought when i saw the title. ...hm, i would argue one gains more in death, somehow. even if you don't believe in any afterlife - the dead are mythologised. you can be whatever when you're dead - you're not alive to fight it

 

[Ambivalent1]

No disease. Depression is NO disease. It is a symptom.

You're misunderstanding. If you want to use the word "symptom," then that would make depression a symptom of an illness or disease? What is that disease?

 

[Deleted member 65988]

Not sure I agree, if someone truly believed life is hopeless and there was nothing after life, technically nothing after CTB would matter.

I chose to believe there is still some sliver of hope for us all.

i don't and i don't think you can also generalize that everyone still has hope otherwise they would've ctb, i know you chose to believe that but i think there's more to it than we haven't lost enough hope to where ctb becomes becomes all that's left, its still a calculated risk no matter how much one wants to go.

 

[ijustwishtodie]

Those who successfully ctb lose consciousness and the ability to experience, feel, think etc anything. And of course they lose some amount of time during life, the exact amount is unknown. They also lose the ability to suffer as well as the ability to regret the cessation of any positive events that were to occur were they to stay alive. This is why I'm personally not fond of the "it could get better" argument as, whilst that may be true, it still wouldn't matter to a dead individual due to what @Goku Black stated in post #2. This is why I see death as my ultimate peace as death makes sure that I can't regret any positive events that could potentially occur and arguably even makes any positive events that were to occur irrelevant as, from the perspective of the individual who killed themselves, there is no future self and never will be

 

[Ambivalent1]

You seem very conviced of yourself, thats good :). Maybe you are misunderstanding?

Why can't you answer the question? Depression = symptom. A symptom of what larger thing (disease)? If you have chest pain, then that's a symptom. It could be of a heart attack, etc.

 

[matt1968]

We just deprive ourself of the opportunity to recover I guess. I guess all of us have some hope that can can still recover else we'd have found a way to CTB.

I have been fighting for 25 years and it takes it toll.

Yes, it's the toll. I've got up quite a few times. There is life expectancy for mh diagnoses and I'm just about there and it feels like it.

There's been a few times in the past I've been suicidal and had moments after that I'm glad I didn't. Always makes me hesitate but this time after aboput 18 months incapacitated, I'm finding it difficult to think I'll be missing good times.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

This is why I see death as my ultimate peace as death makes sure that I can't regret any positive events that could potentially occur and arguably even makes any positive events that were to occur irrelevant as, from the perspective of the individual who killed themselves, there is no future self and never will be

agreed, It's true that suicide precludes future happiness; however now that you are dead, you are no longer an entity that desires and needs happiness, and therefore you are no longer capable of regretting any choice that you have made that results in failing to obtain happiness. The happiness doesn't exist, but the absence of the happiness does not constitute a deficiency in happiness, because the body that once housed your mind is now a human-shaped clump of rapidly decaying organic matter.

 

[Meteora]

I think if a person only struggles with depression that there absolutely is hope.

What I mean is you cannot say one has "only" depressions. Or what is depression for you? And how come you think that with "only" depressions there is hope?

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

Seems like the main thing you lose is the potential for things to feel better but for so many people especially on here, that potential is already lost forever and there's no getting it back without resorting to impossible means that can only be found in fiction.

 

[Meteora]

Seems like the main thing you lose is the potential for things to feel better but for so many people especially on here, that potential is already lost forever and there's no getting it back without resorting to impossible means that can only be found in fiction.

I agree. Sometimes I m not sure if it will never get better, though......

 

[Ambivalent1]

What I mean is you cannot say one has "only" depressions. Or what is depression for you? And how come you think that with "only" depressions there is hope?

Only in the sense that it's your only health problem. Depression can be treated. It can be treated through antidepressants, therapy, finding a meaningful hobby, finding the right people to surround yourself with, sunlight, healthy eating, religion, travel, etc. The problem with depression is it makes one withdraw and not try things. Depression is like a smokescreen imprisoning you, but it's still a smokescreen that can be walked through.

 

[Meteora]

Only in the sense that it's your only health problem. Depression can be treated. It can be treated through antidepressants, therapy, finding a meaningful hobby, finding the right people to surround yourself with, sunlight, healthy eating, religion, travel, etc.

You are misinformed, very much so. And I think you should be careful with such statements unless you want to hurt people willingly.

 

[vak]

What I mean is you cannot say one has "only" depressions. Or what is depression for you? And how come you think that with "only" depressions there is hope?

Not the OP, but from my point of view if unwillingness to live stems from an existential position and is not affected by your current mental state (happiness, ability to enjoy things and connect with people), I would say that it is much harder to overcome (and why would you?). I'm not trying to invalidate depression but it is something you can try to fight with professional help, meaning there can be hope.

 

[Ambivalent1]

Those who successfully ctb lose consciousness and the ability to experience, feel, think etc anything. And of course they lose some amount of time during life, the exact amount is unknown. They also lose the ability to suffer as well as the ability to regret the cessation of any positive events that were to occur were they to stay alive. This is why I'm personally not fond of the "it could get better" argument as, whilst that may be true, it still wouldn't matter to a dead individual due to what @Goku Black stated in post #2. This is why I see death as my ultimate peace as death makes sure that I can't regret any positive events that could potentially occur and arguably even makes any positive events that were to occur irrelevant as, from the perspective of the individual who killed themselves, there is no future self and never will be

I saw a quote once from a man who lived long ago who said something like "It is best for a person to not see the sun but go quickly to the grave."

You are misinformed, very much so. And I think you should be careful with such statements unless you want to hurt people willingly.

I have depression among many other things. This is what depression does. It blocks out all advice. Depression incapacitates a person. I'm done talking with you. You won't listen to me or anyone.

Not the OP, but from my point of view if unwillingness to live stems from an existential position and is not affected by your current mental state (happiness, ability to enjoy things and connect with people), I would say that it is much harder to overcome (and why would you?). I'm not trying to invalidate depression but it is something you can try to fight with professional help, meaning there can be hope.

She doesn't want hope. She wants to wallow. It's common with depression, which is why it's so hard to treat. It saps the will to get better.

 

[Meteora]

@vak I dont think we should start a war between physically ill and mentally disabled people. Its better to have mutual respect.

I have a friend, she got diagnosed with multiple sklerosis-like disease at the age of 18 (in fact the doctors didnt know what she really had and consequently, there was no medication to slow down the progress of her suffering).
By her mid twenties she needed a wheeled walker and now, at 35, she sits in a electic wheelchair.

At the beginning of her twenties she suffered from severe depression because of the diagnosis and she once told me much later that her physical disability is so much easier to handle for her than the depression ever was and she just hopes it will never come back. That was very impressive to me because her phyiscal disability stole so much from her and still she "prefered" it from depression.

 

[Captive_Mind515]

The person loses nothing. You have to exist in order to suffer a loss of some kind.

That's why, for me, we shouldn't fear death. Only a bad death.

Humans are a greedy species by nature. Even if someone had a great life and died young, many people would say it was a tragedy because they missed out on many more happy years. But objectively, why does it really matter? If you had say 30 amazing years, and then died suddenly in your sleep, why would that be such a bad thing? It should be about quality not quantity. But human greed makes people think that sticking around as long as possible is a great idea. Then look at all the miserable older people, who are suffering through horrible ailments essentially because they pushed their luck too far and stuck around well beyond their best years. (everyone is entitled to make that choice of course, but it's very often a bad decision based on greed and lack of wisdom)

 

[Tokugawa_Yoshinobu]

Here's how I perceive life:

Life has no meaning onto its own besides that which you give to it. But what if you can't live life like you wanted and this is bothering you way too much for whatever reason? Well that is what situation I find myself in. I had opportunities to change my situation, didn't do it and then failed.

I lost my reason to live on and don't want to change my mind on it because it is my will and I will die on that hill. Screw everything else.

So nothing is lost. I've lost everything I ever wanted already.

 

[vak]

@vak I dont think we should start a war between physically ill and mentally disabled people. Its better to have mutual respect.

I mean I agree with you 1000%, but I don't see how it's a response to my post.