What are your feelings on Antinatalism?

[motel rooms]

They need to examine every lesbian porn video available

I hope they let the nuns examine them too

 

[Zzzzz]

There's no doubt that anti-natalism is far more compassionate for humanity than reproduction.

 

[Superdeterminist]

Well if youre happy in life you wouldnt be in a depression suicidal forum right..

Yeah i think if one can guarantee a great life full of satisfying experiences and low pain with a happy ending. Its ok to procreate. But who can guarantee that?

Let alone if happy ending exist? Since everybody has to experience dying and the body deteriorating.

Have you seen Animalplanet and such? How the animal eating happily then after a while they get eaten screaming in agony.
is the joy of eating worth the pain?

Also heres a article about a prince being asked at the end of the life if hes truely happy when he had experience joy of life. And he said no. And said
"O man! place not thy confidence in this present world!"

Also a science, psychology that human actually not meant to be happy but to survive. Which is why you cant be fully satisfied

Humans aren’t designed to be happy – so stop trying

Happiness is a human construct, an abstract idea with no biological basis. But this is something to be happy about.

theconversation.com

Because even when all our material and biological needs are satisfied, a state of sustained happiness will still remain a theoretical and elusive goal.

Happiness is a human construct, an abstract idea with no equivalent in actual human experience. Positive and negative affects do reside in the brain, but sustained happiness has no biological basis.

The fact that evolution has prioritised the development of a big frontal lobe in our brain (which gives us excellent executive and analytical abilities) over a natural ability to be happy, tells us a lot about nature's priorities.

I'm not happy, I'm just saying I've had happy moments, and you must agree that life isn't a universally unhappy experience for EVERYONE, some people get lucky and are happy all or most of the time.

We can't guarantee a happy life, but what we can guarantee is a peaceful death, and people should be accepting of that. Who's to say we can't design a pleasant death?

Yes, I hate the state of nature, it's disgusting, predation and disease everywhere. The thing is that antinatalism doesn't solve the problem of nature. If anything, by eliminating ourselves we eliminate the only chance to rectify the horrors of nature. It's possible (imo likely) that we will become intelligent enough to redesign nature so that it isn't disgusting like it currently is.

That one prince only speaks for himself. I don't expect my distaste of life to speak for prolifers, the same way I don't expect the prolifers to speak for me. Everyone has their own perspective.

Yes I agree humans did not evolve to always be happy, but to survive. But there are still people out there who love life despite suffering, I can't understand it, but I'm not them. I will leave them alone and I expect them to let me die if I please.

If you are, you can. And whether or not you are is pre-determined.

I agree. How I said it is misleading probably. I don't mean it's impossible to be angry or even that one shouldn't be angry; of course some people are angry, and I find myself slipping back into resentment for my parents sometimes. To put it more clearly, acknowledging the lack of free will often helps reduce any anger I would otherwise have for them.

 

[motel rooms]

If anything, by eliminating ourselves we eliminate the only chance to rectify the horrors of nature. It's possible (imo likely) that we will become intelligent enough to redesign nature so that it isn't disgusting like it currently is.

A disgusting part of nature will redesign disgusting nature so that it stops being disgusting? No amount of intelligence can make this world a place where injustice is eliminated...

 

[WornOutLife]

I totally agree.
My dad is really an awesome human being but I've told him thousands of times that he was a selfish bastard for bringing me into this world and making me exist lol. (I've also said it to my mother but she's mentally ill so, it's not a good idea to "attack" her so much)

 

[Superdeterminist]

Um..I am confused by your response..
I said "consolation prize", that means something far different than simply calling access to euthanasia or any suicide a "prize".
A consolation prize is what you get even when you lost the race, a small favor, and my point was that to never have begun the hellish race to begin with would be preferable to going through with it and suffering, just to lose and get a damn consolation, like "well here, it's the least we can do, it won't erase all the trauma and pain you've endured, but at least you can end it now."
It is kind of shitty when you think about it,
that's the bare minimum and sort of a slap in the face, but we are still begging for it because we know that's the best we are going to get and we are desperate to put a stop to the madness.
It's our right, after all.

I am simply saying that to have never been born is superior to having lived a life of suffering, or risking such.
Because death isn't even enough, once you've reached the point of no return.
Death ends your consciousness of the torture, it doesn't erase it unfortunately.

That concept of a lack of free will is flawed. And by that logic, the prolifers are also acting out of a fated path, rather than choosing to harass us, so are they free from blame as well? Murderers? Rapists? Child molesters?

People make the informed decision not to have children every day.
I do not think rolling the dice on a human life is morally or ethically sound, you're gambling with the unknown and you're not even the one who suffers the consequences.
Just because some people get a better hand dealt to them, doesn't mean their pleasure matters more than our pain, it doesn't mean continued procreation and risking more lives to roll snake eyes just to get some that roll otherwise, is worth it.
We need to stop sacrificing people to a nightmare life, just for the off-chance that they might end up one of the lucky ones, the ones who use the less fortunate as stepping stones to their own end, and beginning.
If you told me I would have 10 children and 9 of them would live mostly happy, fulfilled lives, while 1 of them would suffer to the point of suicide, or even at all in relation to their siblings...for that very fact alone, I would refuse to have a single one of them, just so that I wouldn't risk the suffering of that one child.

We were referring to human instincts and the ability for a human being to control themselves rather than blame their actions on a "natural instinct".
So something like cancer wouldn't come into the equation regardless, it wasn't specific enough to the conversation to be relevant.

Also I'm not sure if you are calling my own words stupid or the argument I was outlining..which was my point, that it's ridiculous-to say we can't control whether we procreate on the basis of a natural "urge" but not apply that same flawed logic to other types of "natural urges/instincts", many of which have been (rightfully) outlawed in modern society and most of us manage just fine.
It's a slippery slope, the "natural, therefore good and permitted" argument.
I am pretty sure we are in agreement on that ..

Could you explain how it's flawed? The only options there are for any decision a person makes, is that either it is made for reasons (e.g. bad upbringing, brain tumour, brain structure etc) or for no reason at all (in other words it's a brute fact - e.g. Mark is just a rapist for no prior reasons). It depends how you want to define "free", but in my book, neither of those options grant any kind of freedom. If you subscribe to the idea of libertarian free will, essentially you are saying that all decisions are brute facts (e.g. I chose chocolate ice cream just because). Where's the freedom in that? You can't even explain why you chose chocolate over vanilla, it's just a brute fact of the universe.

 

[BeansOfRequirement]

I agree. How I said it is misleading probably. I don't mean it's impossible to be angry or even that one shouldn't be angry; of course some people are angry, and I find myself slipping back into resentment for my parents sometimes. To put it more clearly, acknowledging the lack of free will often helps reduce any anger I would otherwise have for them.

I knew you knew that, I just wanted to post.

 

[Gaybonez]

I think a lot of the reasons why we want to ctb overlap with the tenets of antinatalism. Ultimately we are all here because of the selfish desires of our parents/ancestors. It is not like we had any say in what gender, race, nationality, socioeconomic class, etc we are born into.

I am frankly embarrassed and ashamed of my parents and family. I know I have no right to criticize anyone since I'm no prize either but at least I can recognize that I am a deeply flawed person. So many people mindlessly have kids in terrible circumstances and then demand/guilt them into being grateful for a shitty life they never asked for.

It just frustrates me that I have to exist in this unrelenting hell and if I want to escape I have to overcome biological instincts imprinted on a genetic level. Living sucks but dying is hard. If I never existed I never had to experience the agony of life and the fear of death. People who bring new lives into this hell are evil.

Reasonable

 

[BlankUser]

I am antinatalist and proud. My boyfriend is also antinatalist. Even though his mother called him "not normal" for not wanting to have kids, but that's how the minds of narrow-minded people work. We both talked how there are too many people in this world and how having a child is literally giving away your freedom. No kids for us, thanks!

 

[The Mute Viking]

If the universe rolls good dice for you, then there can be a lot of joy in life. I know I've had some amazing experiences here and others have told me they have too. I definitely acknowledge the suffering as well though and how awful it can be, which is why I think a right to die is essential. Some people just suffer terribly, and ALL people deserve that option.

The strongest belief I hold is that we don't have free will. That means I can't be angry at my parents for conceiving me, it wasn't a free choice of theirs. They were compelled to procreate, much the same as I am compelled to die.

The most mature response to this thread.
Anti-natalism is just as stupid as selfish-procreation. There's being bitter about your shitty lot in life and "Not having the right to choose to be born" as stupid as that logic is, and then there's being illogically bitter about a fundemental force of life and creation.

Yikes.

 

[eternalmelancholy]

Anti-natalism is just as stupid as selfish-procreation. There's being bitter about your shitty lot in life and "Not having the right to choose to be born" as stupid as that logic is, and then there's being illogically bitter about a fundemental force of life and creation.

Do you have an argument against antinatalism based on legitimate reason? Because calling it stupid and bitter does not counter any of its assertions. Perhaps you are a parent who feels attacked but personal feelings have no weight on philosophical arguments.

 

[diyCTB]

@eternalmelancholy Ponzi scheme you say? To me it looks more like pyramid scheme: https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/life-is-a-pyramid-scheme.59716/

I think the "cat has been out of the bag" i.e. collective has been exposed to life and you can't force your views on those who don't agree with it because it will be against their will. But that also means they can't force their views on us and will have to accept our views. No double standards.

I became antinatalist after realizing there is the other side of the coin that nobody want's to talk about. Freedom is an illusion we are all brainwashed with. We are never truly free because we are already born in this prison and once we want out those of our kind turn against us. Should we blame our parents or go to the source and blame the origin, that is extraterrestrials who decided it would be a good experiment to combine DNA and seed humanity on this planet and leave us to our fate?

By the way, that's one quote that can be interpreted differently.
Don't know if he was antinatalist too but it fits antinatalism context.

 

[LifeQuitter2018]

Just legalize assisted suicide and euthanasia, breed all you want, but leave people a peaceful exit when they deem life is too unbearable.

 

[diyCTB]

Just legalize assisted suicide and euthanasia, breed all you want, but leave people a peaceful exit when they deem life is too unbearable.

The bottom line. Short and sweet.

 

[Green Destiny]

I've had the Antinatalist view for a while now. You see how terrible and what little this world has to offer and yet people think it's a good idea to have children anyway? I won't deny that would be parents can be great loving parents, but for every one happy family is 9 miserable families with parents that were probably better off not conceiving kids. Just the other day I said to my mom that I have no clue what she and my dad saw in each other and that they both must have been very drunk when they decided to get married and have kids. They're divorce and constant unpleasantness at each other has yet to prove me wrong otherwise.

 

[hʚll]

i hold the antinatalist cause dear. it would be so cool if all humans realized how immoral it is to bring anyone in this hell, to make them suffer for no reason. or at least if they could be empathetic enough to give us the right to exit this life... sometimes i feel sad and angry at parents for bringing me here, without my consent, without really thinking about it, but deep down i know they are too victims of my same tragedy...

 

[TooConscious]

The older I get the more I do express these views, well online, it's pointless in person because people love to argue about it, it's always the same rubbish, you're doing a wonderful thing bringing life into existence, you can show it the way and guide it to where you feel you went wrong...
This typical conversation makes me despise people, their ignorance, and bliss they feel in it, by choice, the cruelty they don't mind committing and can shut out their sins so easily. They have no real empathy, no guilt, and they are evil. Creating life in this world is an evil deed.

It Pisses me off if you don't want children people say you are an unloving person, these same people are having children as insurance so when they get old they put in the kids heads it's their duty to look after them, they waste their money on weekends getting drunk rather than banking it to give the child hope, and in some cases even leave the kid to starve taking their child benefit from the government/taxpayers for their own pleasure.

How can anyone loving and sane look around and truly believe there is a good future for anything, the world is made for the elite who feed off others suffering.
The chance you are taking is an evil one.
Yes, you are a sadist, and you know it, so you feel the need to justify yourself never properly answering the question of why you would risk such torture on another soul.

The conceit and ego to create/bring a life into this...

 

[Yakamoz]

 

[wholesome13]

Being suicidal and not antinatalist is something ethically quite problematic (for example, someone who has children in hope to stop being suicidal).

 

[LigottiSchopenhauer]

"I think the honorable thing for our species to do is stop reproducing. Walk hand in hand into extinction, brothers and sisters opting out of a raw deal." - Rust Cohle

 

[charlotte_]

I mostly agree with it. This world, or the nature of the human being have sm things that are inherently evil (selfishness, egoism, ect). Plus, this world is getting so damn loaded with ppl. The more ppl, the more suffering it will cause to other ppl and to the other species in the nature. Still, I wouldn't say going to extreme means like stop procreating is necessary. Humans, organisms, and other components in the universe are never meant to have free will in the first place. We are brought here, simply for no reason or at least we don't know yet. It's natural to continue life when death occurs, so I can't really blame people for having kids.

 

[SoftWorries]

My mother did not want me. I was an accident birth because my mom had the flu and her pills didn't work. She decided not to get an abortion.

Giving birth to an unwanted child was a trauma for her. She never bonded with me, never wanted me, was retraumatized by me because of incestuous sexual abuse all during her childhood. She told me that she only realized she wanted me when old ladies would tell her that I was beautiful.

She would say if I was in the same room with her I'd steal all the air. She would say that radios hissed when I walked by because I was set on a bad frequency.

She neglected me, abused me, allowed others to abuse me, and dropped me from her life after emptying my bank account as an adult.

When I try to talk to people I love about this they say "I'm grateful that you're here. I'm grateful she didn't abort you because I'm happy you're here."

But if I wasn't here already no one, not even myself, would feel the loss. I think I would have been better off aborted. My mom would have been better off too. Her life and sanity ended the day I came to be and her.

And now I live with all the abuse that's created every pathway in my brain.

I don't hate that I was born I hate how barbaric it all is. I wish I'd been born in a lab. I wish I'd been born on the moon. I read Brave New World and The Dispossessed for comfort. I wish I hadn't been born into a twisted dollhouse of my mother's unresolved trauma.

At the very least I'd never sentence someone else to life improvement in human form.

 

[bigdog]

Just legalize assisted suicide and euthanasia, breed all you want, but leave people a peaceful exit when they deem life is too unbearable.

Logical

 

[Forever Sleep]

Deep down- I am an anti-natilist- I think it's cruel to play the lottery of chance with your child's life. Plus, I think there need to be a whole lot less of us for this planet to recover. I simply don't see how it will manage it otherwise- seeing as we are all just consumers at the end of the day.

That said- I don't think people are necessarily evil for having children. Some are and some are incredibly selfish about it. I think some are just naive though- if their own life has been reasonable- even happy- they likely just assume their children's will be too.

I just wish people thought more about it. I find it ironic that many of us have spent decades contemplating suicide- and- putting it off because of the emotional damage it probably will cause those left behind. I wish our parents had done us the same courtesy and REALLY thought about the implications of bringing a living being into this world who could then VERY WELL suffer for years on end.

 

[diyCTB]

I have this in my bookmarks "Why I am sold on antinatalism" - Part 1 and Part 2

On the right sidebar there is a list related to antinatalism with one named "Antinatalism- The Greatest Taboo"
On that blog on the left sidebar I coincidentally found a poem by Philip Larkin which I learned about a few years go
and save it on my device in a form of this picture.