We will no longer be listing the Samaritan's suicide hotline in any official capacity on this website

[RainAndSadness]

I agree with @Berlin76.

Removing the Samaritans' info seems like a knee-jerk reaction that's ultimately going to do more harm than good for this forum.

[...]

It really doesn't matter if callers ultimately found them helpful or not. Having the info on here certainly helped the image of this forum. Taking it down will achieve the opposite.

As the saying goes, don't cut your nose off to spite your face.

Bro, did you sleep under a rock the last 2 years? They smear us despite the recovery forum and the hotline numbers. It doesn't matter. They will attack us either way because this isn't about prinicples or logic for them. It's an ideology driven war that they have started, because those people can't stand(!!) the idea that we take matters into our hand and make our own decision about life and death. That's all that's it about. They will move the goalpost until they find a way to completely wipe us from the internet. They will not stop. It doesn't matter if we have that shitty support hotline listed in the resources or not.

This site is being criticized partially because it is "vulnerable people trying to help other vulnerable people". Providing the Samaritan's hotline at the top of the page provided visitors with access to trained volunteers in addition to (not instead of) the support from their peers.

No. That's wrong. They criticize us because people have a choice in this forum when it comes to suicide. That's why they oppose us. For them it doesn't matter if we're vulnerable or not. It doesn't matter if you have the best reason to commit suicide or not. They will oppose suicide because they're ideologically opposed to it, in all cases, no matter the circumstances. Period. Those people simply oppose the idea that a person can make a rational decision about ending their life. This is an inherently authoritarian stance and we should NOT bend down to their ideology. We should resist them in all possible ways. Maybe you should take a look at all those politicians that tried to take down the website in the past. Those people were pro-life. For example, there was a republican politician in NY who tried to ban the website back in 2019. She had a record of voting against abortion bills and based all of her political decisions on her christian believes. And that's all it's about. These people are pro-life and they want to keep you alive against your will, no matter what horrible condition you suffer from. I would go so far and describe their stance as a a pro-suffering stance and the Samaritans clearly fall into that category.

 

[Majin K.]

Bro, did you sleep under a rock the last 2 years? They smear us despite the recovery forum and the hotline numbers. It doesn't matter. They will attack us either way because this isn't about prinicples or logic for them. It's an ideology driven war that they have started, because those people can't stand(!!) the idea that we take matters into our hand and make our own decision about life and death. That's all that's it about. They will move the goalpost until they find a way to completely wipe us from the internet. They will not stop. It doesn't matter if we have that shitty support hotline listed in the resources or not. Just because I support suicide doesn't mean that I'm an anti natalist.





No. That's wrong. They criticize us because people have a choice in this forum when it comes to suicide. That's why they oppose us. For them it doesn't matter if we're vulnerable or not. It doesn't matter if you have the best reason to commit suicide. They will oppose suicide because they're ideologically opposed to it, in all cases, no matter the circumstances. Those people simply oppose the idea that a person can make a rational decision about ending their life. Maybe you should take a look at all those politicians that tried to take down the website in the past. Those people were pro-life. For example, here was a republican politician in NY who tried to ban the website. They had a record of voting against abortion bills. That's all it's about. These people are pro-life.

I do find abortion to be an immoral practice for various reasons, but suicide and abortion aren't in any way comparable. Suicide is an active choice made by an individual that only affects him or herself, while abortion is a choice made by a third party concerning the life of a human being that couldn't possibly consent to dying.

 

[AllorNothing]

Can you take that post and make it into a tread in the recovery section

Done, https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/suicide-crisis-hotline-megathread.31947/

I don't know how to link threads like I have seen others do, where it shows a preview of it. Can you PM me how to do that?

 

[RainAndSadness]

I do find abortion to be an immoral practice for various reasons, but suicide and abortion aren't in any way comparable. Suicide is an active choice made by an individual that only affects him or herself, while abortion is a choice made by a third party concerning the life of a human being that couldn't possibly consent to dying.

The arguments against abortion and suicide are very similar and they come, in many cases, from a religious point of view. I agree that the discussion around abortion involves a third party: the fetus, that has a potential to become a living person, unlike the debate around suicide, that basically only involves you and nobody else. But besides all the medical and scientific arguments for abortion, I prioritize the autonomy and health of the mother over the potential of the fetus because I'm socially libertarian and generally anti-authoritarian and I don't think the government should interfere when it comes to such sensitive and personal choices. The same applies to suicide.
I'm also an anti-natalist, so I think we should stop pumping out as many babies as possible and rather make sure, that the babies that make it into this world, have a decent and enjoyable life, free from suffering. And sometimes an abortion is justified for that reason alone. Hell, my parents were complete failures in their job as parents and I would rather have been aborted than going through a life filled with misery and struggling. So in other words: quality over quantity. Like, we already have enough people on the planet and the global birth rate is quite concerning. I think it's a benefit for society and also the environment if we produce less children.

Also, a fetus isn't a person yet and doesn't qualify as a human being. So I would inherently disagree with your framing of the last sentence. Also, the same way a fetus doesn't consent to the abortion, it also doesn't consent to the birth. We don't ask them if they want to be born, possibly going through a life filled with misery and desperation, like many of us do in this forum. So I don't think that argument is very strong here.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

If this is war, then I'm reading this again...

The Internet Classics Archive | The Art of War by Sun Tzu

The Art of War by Sun Tzu, part of the Internet Classics Archive

classics.mit.edu

 

[Jean4]

I do find abortion to be an immoral practice for various reasons, but suicide and abortion aren't in any way comparable. Suicide is an active choice made by an individual that only affects him or herself, while abortion is a choice made by a third party concerning the life of a human being that couldn't possibly consent to dying.

And I respect your view on abortion. It is perfectly fine. You can have it. I'm not trying to change your mind. You are entitled to your opinion it is immoral. You can choose not to abort your child should you become pregnant. I won't impose my belief that I am pro-choice on you. ;)

 

[Majin K.]

The arguments against abortion and suicide are very similar and they come, in many cases, from a religious point of view. I agree that the discussion around abortion involves a third party: the fetus, that has a potential to become a living person, unlike the debate around suicide, that basically only involves you and nobody else. But besides all the medical and scientific arguments for abortion, I prioritize the autonomy and health of the mother over the potential of the fetus because I'm socially libertarian and generally anti-authoritarian and I don't think the government should interfere when it comes to such sensitive and personal topics. The same applies to suicide.
I'm also an anti-natalist, so I think we should stop pumping out as many babies as possible and rather make sure, that the babies that make it into this world, have a decent and enjoyable life, free from suffering. And sometimes an abortion is justified for that reason alone. Hell, my parents were complete failures in their job as parents and I would rather have been aborted than going through a life filled with misery and struggling. So in other words: quality over quantity.
Also, we already have enough people on the planet and the global birth rate is quite concerning. I think it's a benefit for society and also the environment if we produce less children.

Also, a fetus isn't a person yet and doesn't qualify as a human being. So I would inherently disagree with your framing of the last sentence. Also, the same way a fetus doesn't consent to the abortion, it also doesn't consent to the birth. So I don't think that argument is very strong here.

The big difference is that a suicidal person consents to dying, while a baby can't do such a thing. Also just because we're miserable and want to die doesn't mean that anti-natalism is the correct way of thinking. If breeders viewed life through the same lens that we do, then they wouldn't be breeders. They're breeders, because they believe that despite all the negatives that life is worth it. Just for the record I'm not even religious. I'm a nihilist atheist, but just because I view life to be pointless doesn't mean that other people aren't allowed to be happy that they're alive.

Personally I'm a fan of the heartbeat bill. If it has a heartbeat, it's a human being with the right to live and then you can't abort it. Heartbeat = alive, sounds logical right? Leaving you a time window to make the choice. Only exceptions should be victims of rape, incest and if the baby is going to be handicapped in a way that it could severely limit it's quality of life. Catering to both the pro choice and the pro life crowds.

When somebody kills a pregnant woman it's considered a double homicide, but when the mother decides to abort the baby it's somehow not murder and also not a crime. When the baby leaves the magical birth canal it's considered a human being that has the right to live, but while it's still in the womb it somehow doesn't. Madness and hypocrisy at it's finest I tell you.

Somehow the entire life of a human being that's being terminated is less valuable than the comparatively short 9 months a woman is losing. Nobody is even forcing a woman to raise the child herself. Yes I do believe that overpopulation is a problem, but first world countries have negative birth rates anyways. It's third world countries which are breeding like crazy.

And I respect your view on abortion. It is perfectly fine. You can have it. I'm not trying to change your mind. You are entitled to your opinion it is immoral. You can choose not to abort your child should you become pregnant. I won't impose my belief that I am pro-choice on you. ;)

If I were a woman I wouldn't abort. Worst case scenario I would give the child into an orphanage or foster family.

 

[hunthunt]

Any hotline is a useless businnes run by fucking scammers trying to get statal money using troubled peopoe like us as a scapegoat.

 

[RainAndSadness]

The big difference is that a suicidal person consents to dying, while a baby can't do such a thing. Also just because we're miserable and want to die doesn't mean that anti-natalism is the correct way of thinking. If breeders viewed life through the same lens that we do, they wouldn't be breeders. They're breeders, because they believe that despite all the negatives life is worth it.

I think you missed my last sentence. Of course a fetus (we're not talking about a baby yet) can't consent to abortion, but as I said - it also can't consent to birth. Right? You don't know if a fetus wants to live. Many of us don't want to live, that's the whole point of this forum. And what if the fetus looks forward to a life in misery and pain. Like many of us do. I wish I was aborted. I wasn't and in exchange, I got 25 years of suffering. Thanks mom.

And sure, what I described to you is anti-natalism. Look it up.

Personally I'm a fan of the heartbeat bill. If it has a heartbeat, it's a human being with the right to live and then you can't abort it. Heartbeat = alive, sounds logical right? Leaving you a time window to make the choice. Catering to both the pro choice and the pro life crowds. When somebody kills a pregnant woman it's considered a double homicide, but when the mother decides to abort the baby it's somehow not murder and also not a crime. When the baby leaves the magical birth canal it's considered a human being that has the right to live, but while it's still in the womb it somehow doesn't. Madness and hypocrisy at it's finest I tell you. Somehow the entire life of a human being that's being terminated is less valuable than the comparatively short 9 months a woman is losing. Nobody is even forcing a woman to raise the child herself. Yes I do believe that overpopulation is a problem, but first world countries have negative birth rates anyways.

But that's not how science looks at this subject. Just because something has a heartbeat doesn't mean it can feel pain. It doesn't mean it has a will. It doesn't mean anything, actually. It's still a bunch of cells, far from a human being. Again, a fetus doesn't have any rights. It's per definition not a human, even if there is a heartbeat.

Sure, nobody is forcing the mother to take care of the child. That doesn't automatically mean that others will. No, certainly not. Also, I kinda think that a fetus, once it's born, has a right to be raised by it's own mother, right? I mean, that's my issue. The "rights" of the fetus are only important as long as it's in the womb of the mother. As soon as it's born, we don't care about the baby anymore. Did you ever notice that? It's cruel for the fetus if you take it away from the mother, how is that any better than aborting it when it's still a bunch of cells?

If I were a woman I wouldn't abort. Worst case scenario I would give the child into an orphanage or foster family. Only exceptions I can think off is rape or if the quality of life of the child is going to be severely limited due to being handicapped etc. Although sometimes handicapped people tend to be a lot happier than normal people.

I guess we have a different opinion then - which is okay.

 

[Quarky00]

Samaritan's hotline at the top of the page provided visitors with access to trained volunteers

I'd rather have "trained" monkeys .

They are incompetent . Simply bad option for help . This has been discussed here many times , and it's no surprise they have been removed . I'm glad they help 1 person but too bad they hurt a dozen . As reported by Sanctioned Suicide survey -- members basically voted to remove that option -- long before this controversy .

TARGET POPULATION
SS does not appear first in search results , it takes effort to find , usually while searching very specific things about ctb . People who come here are at the very end and have tried reaching for help many times , for sure ! You don't just wake up in the morning and thoroughly research ctb techniques . Most members reported vast psychiatric history and a myriad of complex conditions including debilitating physical ailments and dire social background .

SAMARITANS "RESPONSE"
For such a target population to hear "things will get better" from the Samaritans is awful . That organization is not equipped to handle complex situations . There's little understanding , listening , and acceptance when it comes to severe distress -- which is a BASIC thing in modern psychology . While therapists are required to report imminent danger and allow it to be handled by psychiatrist / hospital , still all current therapies provide a primary stage of acknowledgment of patient's feelings . The Samaritans DO NOT follow that .

CONCLUSIONS
The "trained" Samaritans are inadequate .

• The Samaritans do not follow basic therapeutic practices and guidelines .
• Volunteers are not supervised and training is insufficient .
• The Samaritans does not publish its protocol , guidelines , training etc to the public .
• The Samaritans does not provide information regarding its volunteers , their mental capacity , or their capabilities .
• The Samaritans does not have ombudsman , inspection , watchdog , etc ; the organization does not show how it handles complaints .
• Unlike Sanctioned Suicide , which is fully open to public scrutiny , Samaritans does not act with any transparency .
• As reported here members received general off cuff encouragement , cliches , dissuasions , quick fixes , and even confrontations and harsh criticism that shattered and crushed their soul .
• Those were given in a state of serious distress and anxiety , while not listening -- and are deemed harmful .

"Who is watching the watchmen?"
​

Answer: no one . Fix the system first .

 

[Majin K.]

I think you missed my last sentence. Of course a fetus (we're not talking about a baby yet) can't consent to abortion, but as I said - it also can't consent to birth. Right? You don't know if a fetus wants to live. Many of us don't want to live, that's the whole point of this forum. And what if the fetus looks forward to a life in misery and pain. Like many of us do. I wish I was aborted. I wasn't and in exchange, I got 25 years of suffering. Thanks mom.

And sure, what I described to you is anti-natalism. Look it up.



But that's not how science looks at this subject. Just because something has a heartbeat doesn't mean it can feel pain. It doesn't mean it has a will. It doesn't mean anything, actually. It's still a bunch of cells, far from a human being. Again, a fetus doesn't have any rights. It's per definition not a human, even if there is a heartbeat.

Sure, nobody is forcing the mother to take care of the child. That doesn't automatically mean that others will. No, certainly not. Also, I kinda think that a fetus, once it's born, has a right to be raised by it's own mother, right? I mean, that's my issue. The "rights" of the fetus are only important as long as it's in the womb of the mother. As soon as it's born, we don't care about the baby anymore. Did you ever notice that? It's cruel for the fetus if you take it away from the mother, how is that any better than aborting it when it's still a bunch of cells?



I guess we have a different opinion then - which is okay.

You're of course entitled to your opinion and this is probably the worst place in which I could have stated my own opinion. By the way we're all just a bunch of cells. Certainly a baby can't consent to being born (Which is one of the main reasons that gives us the right to CTB as we never asked for this life in the first place.), but at the same time the chances of the baby not wanting to die when it grows up probably outweigh the chances of it wanting to die. I also don't see how a human being is only considered a human being once it has left the magical birth canal that turns non human beings into human beings. Certainly it's tragic that a baby isn't raised by it's biological parents, but at the same time someone who never wanted the kid in the first place shouldn't have to suffer for it for the upcoming next 18+ years and probably wouldn't make a good parent anyways. But hey there's no need to worry about my opinions as I'm voting liberitarian as well, because the only right wing parties in my country are a bit on the crazy side.

 

[Sk1n1M1n]

the samaritians were great if you need to chat to talk about problems but they can't do much to help or support, they can be as useless as the crisis team

 

[voyager]

I heard her make those comments on the programme about Callie and as such believe people with a mindset like that can't truly help anyone, because if you're a hammer everything is a nail. Otoh some members have stated that they were more open-minded in their private conversations and have in fact helped them. Maybe on a personal level that's true, but in light of her comments this suppposed open-mindedness sounds more like a ruse to gain people's confidence while subtly pushing them into another direction, because if they were indeed pro choice, why fight this website? Doesn't make sense.

As was suggested, maybe it's prudent to keep a hotline, but it's probably best exchanging it for one which isn't actively smearing this site, or if you can't find another, maybe just leave a "typo" in the one we already have...haha (j/k @Samaritans). To me it never existed anyway, and really I'm just as disillusioned as some of the others. The number was put up as a show of good faith in light of Shawn Shatto's case iirc. But considering the bias of the programme et al it hasn't actually achieved anything and probably never will. Thus, it serves no purpose, because in this world facts obviously don't count for anything anymore when they don't suit the agenda. Appeasement could also be construed as an admission of guilt, and usually just leads to more concessions. What's more, are we virtue signalling with the hotline or do we actually believe it can help people more than the forum itself? Personally I don't, and doubt anyone on here isn't aware these number exist if they do prefer "professional" help. Having said that, the prudent people are probably right on this, because there's little harm in keeping it up, but I feel it's one of those situation where no matter what one does it'll get twisted anyhow. Me personally, I'm an idealist at heart so I'd dump 'em and never give in. It simply won't make a difference in the long run, because the crux of the matter goes far beyond a simple hotline or not.

I can hear it now, "This malicious website, which we won't name to protect our vulnerable viewers from forming their own opinions, even went as far as pulling the number of professional suicide hotlines on their site to control the narrative it's fanatical followers receive, but in essence punish us for speaking the truth about their heinous death cult, which, as we have exposed, carries the potential of another Jonestown on a unimaginable scale."

Another issue I'd like to address, it's true that a ban could probably be circumvented, but it'll be very tricky for people without prior knowledge of this place to find it, and this saddens me greatly. In this context, if legally possible, please keep the complete content of this website available to the public. I've never been able to find this site on a regular web search and to me it was searching for specific methods which led me here, and others too probably.

Suicide Hotline Trivia: Ted Bundy, notorious American serial killer, worked for a suicide hotline in the 70's. As a psychopath he was apparently extremely effective at his work and supposedly saved more people than he actually murdered. Great job, Ted...

Although that's up for debate, I guess.

 

[Berlin76]

I heard her make those comments on the programme about Callie and as such believe people with a mindset like that can't truly help anyone, because if you're a hammer everything is a nail. Otoh some members have stated that they were more open-minded in their private conversations and have in fact helped them. Maybe on a personal level that's true, but in light of her comments this suppposed open-mindedness sounds more like a ruse to gain people's confidence while subtly pushing them into another direction, because if they were indeed pro choice, why fight this website? Doesn't make sense.

As was suggested, maybe it's prudent to keep a hotline, but it's probably best exchanging it for one which isn't actively smearing this site, or if you can't find another, maybe just leave a "typo" in the one we already have...haha (j/k @Samaritans). To me it never existed anyway, and really I'm just as disillusioned as some of the others. The number was put up as a show of good faith in light of Shawn Shatto's case iirc. But considering the bias of the programme et al it hasn't actually achieved anything and probably never will. Thus, it serves no purpose, because in this world facts obviously don't count for anything anymore when they don't suit the agenda. Appeasement could also be construed as an admission of guilt, and usually just leads to more concessions. What's more, are we virtue signalling with the hotline or do we actually believe it can help people more than the forum itself? Personally I don't, and doubt anyone on here isn't aware these number exist if they do prefer "professional" help. Having said that, the prudent people are probably right on this, because there's little harm in keeping it up, but I feel it's one of those situation where no matter what one does it'll get twisted anyhow. Me personally, I'm an idealist at heart so I'd dump 'em and never give in. It simply won't make a difference in the long run, because the crux of the matter goes far beyond a simple hotline or not.

I can hear it now, "This malicious website, which we won't name to protect our vulnerable viewers from forming their own opinions, even went as far as pulling the number of professional suicide hotlines on their site to control the narrative it's fanatical followers receive, but in essence punish us for speaking the truth about their heinous death cult, which, as we have exposed, carries the potential of another Jonestown on a unimaginable scale."

Another issue I'd like to address, it's true that a ban could probably be circumvented, but it'll be very tricky for people without prior knowledge of this place to find it, and this saddens me greatly. In this context, if legally possible, please keep the complete content of this website available to the public. I've never been able to find this site on a regular web search and to me it was searching for specific methods which led me here, and others too probably.

Suicide Hotline Trivia: Ted Bundy, notorious American serial killer, worked for a suicide hotline in the 70's. As a psychopath he was apparently extremely effective at his work and supposedly saved more people than he actually murdered. Great job, Ted...

Although that's up for debate, I guess.

Lol wtf Ted got soft

 

[voyager]

Lol wtf Ted got soft

You know, I wonder if he maybe honed his "skills" on those telephone lines. He must have been a complete expert on people's vulnerabilities and what drives them by the time he went on killing. People credit him for being ingeniously sly when it came to tricking his victims. Fake casts, playing injured, drawing sympathy etc.

 

[Deleted member 1465]

because if you're a hammer everything is a nail

GG. That's the quote I want to tell the shrink. Bloody antidepressants don't cure everything.

 

[TheLastSacrifice]

They want to ruin the one good place to turn to talk things out. I say good of this forum to can them.

 

[UberYeets]

Thank you for everything that you have done for humanity marquis, are you aware of the change.org petition and would creating a counter-petition help?

 

[epic]

Thank you for everything that you have done for humanity marquis, are you aware of the change.org petition and would creating a counter-petition help?

There is a petition ??

 

[Shinbu]

There is a petition ??

Yes. Should we worry about that u.s. petition?, I dunno. They need a 100k so officials can see the petition.

 

[epic]

What's it about ? Do you have a link

 

[FreddieQuell]

I hope the Samaritans tell every caller they are trying to ban this site. They are obviously misrepresenting this site to justify their existence to the pro-life masses

 

[raindrops]

Have you ever called the Samaritans? They make you want to ctb, they sound so careless, I honestly felt like a burden both times I called. T
The woman I spoke with her other f**king phone was ringing in the background, I felt like a problem. They give such lousy, pathetic support.
Not to judge but they also sounded quite posh, that pissed me off as well.
I thought to myself who tf works for these people?! Some middle aged posh women born with a silver spoon in their mouths, living in their big houses, spewing out crap like "well you know it will all be okay" well thanks, that helped, I wanted a conversation but I suppose some posh middle aged woman doing volunteering work because she took her pension at 50 telling me it will all be okay, makes it okay. Screw the Samaritans they do not help.
This place has helped me so much, reading real stories from real people, really has helped!

 

[London2021]

Dont know if Samaritans in US operates differently to UK but am aware of the campaign you refere to ( ironically it allowed me to find to get back to the site !).

Here some controversy that changed policy about alerting authorities if others in danger and some reports will do if you in danger.

This looked like a response to their now defunct text message service which of course then identifies the caller who then may go on to die. Guess not a good PR look...affects fundraising.
The strength of their model was underpinned by never being able to identify.

In the past their face to face support for me in crisis was off the scale. They allocated a regular counsellor I saw one fortnight for 2 yrs. With crisis plan inbetween where I went in, where prearranged calls were made. Supported me when extremely psychotic, when manic, when in a psych hospital, when run abroad.

Not once were they ever anything else but a listening service. Told me they wouldn't and couldn't intervene. Stayed on the phone on one occasion after taken massive OD so I wouldn't die alone.

Not on social media but what have been shown is clear some sort of shift in response to some callers. It stopped people calling and of course recently no one has had face to face but that model in particular worked so so well for me because right from get go they made it clear - and part of burb- that they would NEVER CALL POLICE and free to talk about suicide including plans.

Dont know what has gone wrong here in UK as the listening model no fear of action let people speak and feel safe, including safe to end their lives. Maybe a milder version of what is talked about in this thread?

They didn't even inform the authorities of visits to Switzerland. Wondering what they would do now .....

 

[LONE WOLF.]

Good,the Samaritans are a bunch of untrained monkeys that are as much use as a one legged person in a arse kicking contest!