Discussion Was I wrong/selfish for saving my wife after she tried to ctb?

[bluem00n]

I've never replied to one of your comments before because you're so heavily opinionated I tend to figure it simply isn't worth it ...

The dilemma here is that many people react to FC's posts as though she was endowed with a conventional 'mainstream' psychology (for want of a better way of putting it!). They entirely lose sight of / forget the actual person behind FC's posts, and respond accordingly. That's quite understandable - FC frequently irks me as well - but having worked in the field of mental health, I've learnt not to lose sight of who I'm actually interacting with.

Below is an extract from this webpage, that might be useful to bear in mind ...

As a caregiver, friend, teacher or therapist, black and white thinking can sometimes feel intentional or manipulative, especially when it happens again and again and in similar situations.

Black and white, also known as polarized thinking patterns, are ways of thinking that just make sense to people with ASD. Individuals on the spectrum struggle with the nuances and non-verbal gestures and communication that exist in interpersonal interactions and communication standards that may come more naturally to others.

For example, anything lower than a 100% on a math quiz = failure. And, that's even if the actual grade earned is a 97%. Handling conflicts is a tough one to begin with, but for someone with ASD, an argument or lack of agreement about a topic = no more friendship. A young woman with ASD may get in an argument with a friend at school and immediately feel they are not friends with this person anymore, struggling to understand that disagreements are a natural part of any relationship and can be worked through. These automatic thoughts can lead to significant setbacks in a child's academic and social functioning.

To the OP @BonnieH ...

I entirely relate to your dilemma, as I had to deal with an identical situation ... my partner was schizophrenic, and her suicide attempts became such commonplace occurences that our relationship acquired a truly surreal aspect - I was pretty much on first-name terms with the ambulance driver and medics, and became a frequent visitor to the local hospital's padded room to keep my partner company while she came down from her most recent glassy-eyed / spaced-out state.

I don't think there's any right answer to your question - you just make it up as you go along, and do what seems best at the time. It's essential to remember that whatever decision you make, it was the right one at the time. Don't beat yourself up about it afterwards.​

 

[Mlee75]

My wife attempted to ctb 3 weeks ago. I took her to hospital where she was very close but was brought back. She has since been sectioned in a hospital and if anything it's been bringing her down more.

I love and cherish my wife and hope to spend my life with her as in her I've found my soulmate, but I'm wondering after reading some posts on here if I'm doing more harm than good by stopping her when she is clearly unhappy and wants to ctb. I want what is best for my wife and I don't want her to suffer in this life or in any other way.

I'm wondering if it isn't worth ctb together as I don't want to be in a world without her, but I don't want to keep her in this world if she is truly unhappy as that would be cruel and selfish of me.

Am I in the wrong for saving my wife? Was that me being selfish because I want to spend my life with her?

It's a natural reaction and not doing so would have left you with a lifetime of questions and that is not fair to you. My friend recently drove two states away to my house, called the ambulance and committed me on a correct hunch. I do not resent her for this because I feel that she had no choice. To not do anything or to have ignored her hunch would have left her with a lifetime of questions. I wish that she did not have that hunch and would not have intervened, but since she did, she had no choice but to act on it.

 

[spinningship]

The dilemma here is that many people react to FC's posts as though she was endowed with a conventional 'mainstream' psychology (for want of a better way of putting it!). They entirely lose sight of / forget the actual person behind FC's posts, and respond accordingly. That's quite understandable - FC frequently irks me as well - but having worked in the field of mental health, I've learnt not to lose sight of who I'm actually interacting with.

Below is an extract from this webpage, that might be useful to bear in mind ...

As a caregiver, friend, teacher or therapist, black and white thinking can sometimes feel intentional or manipulative, especially when it happens again and again and in similar situations.

Black and white, also known as polarized thinking patterns, are ways of thinking that just make sense to people with ASD. Individuals on the spectrum struggle with the nuances and non-verbal gestures and communication that exist in interpersonal interactions and communication standards that may come more naturally to others.

For example, anything lower than a 100% on a math quiz = failure. And, that's even if the actual grade earned is a 97%. Handling conflicts is a tough one to begin with, but for someone with ASD, an argument or lack of agreement about a topic = no more friendship. A young woman with ASD may get in an argument with a friend at school and immediately feel they are not friends with this person anymore, struggling to understand that disagreements are a natural part of any relationship and can be worked through. These automatic thoughts can lead to significant setbacks in a child's academic and social functioning.

To the OP @BonnieH ...

I entirely relate to your dilemma, as I had to deal with an identical situation ... my partner was schizophrenic, and her suicide attempts became such commonplace occurences that our relationship acquired a truly surreal aspect - I was pretty much on first-name terms with the ambulance driver and medics, and became a frequent visitor to the local hospital's padded room to keep my partner company while she came down from her most recent glassy-eyed / spaced-out state.

I don't think there's any right answer to your question - you just make it up as you go along, and do what seems best at the time. It's essential to remember that whatever decision you make, it was the right one at the time. Don't beat yourself up about it afterwards.​

While us autistic people do tend to have black and white thinking it doesn't mean that it's impossible to change our opinions or that we shouldn't be challenged. It's definitely possible to work on spotting when you've fallen into thinking in black and white terms and actively working to try and get a more nuanced perspective, albeit much harder than for a neurotypical.

 

[bluem00n]

While us autistic people do tend to have black and white thinking it doesn't mean that it's impossible to change our opinions or that we shouldn't be challenged. It's definitely possible to work on spotting when you've fallen into thinking in black and white terms and actively working to try and get a more nuanced perspective, albeit much harder than for a neurotypical.

I want to avoid derailing this thread, so I'l try and be brief!

You're right - more flexible thinking is indeed quite achievable with ASD folk. However, that outcome is best accomplished with methods that are sensitive to the nature of the affliction, some of which are summarised on the webpage I linked.

Trouble is, those techniques aren't employed here at all ... people tend to pile on to FC with rather heavy-handed criticisms that have either lost sight of, or are unacquainted with, the psychology they're responding to, so she inevitably digs her heels in. To influence FC's style of communication, a lot more subtle and far less confrontational approach would be needed, otherwise the situation remains devolved into the unending stalemate we've seen of late, where both sides adopt intractable / entrenched positions in perpetuity.​

 

[june]

That is so tough

 

[Suicidebydeath]

Given my own girlfriend ctb not less than a week ago, I think I'm qualified to respond to this, controversial or not.

Most people are selfish and act in their own interests and since nobody likes to admit they're selfish, people are going to say whatever they would do in that situation is not selfish even when it is. People also tend to make other people feel better by telling them what they want to hear, which is transparent for some people. When I was discussing it with her, I gave her the option of a possible out of her situation and she said that she would still be unhappy with life. I also wanted to spend my life with her and she was perfect, and I have nothing else going right in my life right now so she was all I had (so I've lost everything now, but I consider that irrelevant). Preventing her ctb would've been against her stated wishes. I do think in all likelihood most people would try to intervene, anyway.

It somewhat depends on whether or not you knew it was a ctb attempt. It sounds like you would've known. That she didn't discuss it with you makes me think that she thought you would've prevented it if she did. So I think she knew that you would try to prevent it, and didn't want that, and you went against her wishes, because you didn't want her to die, which is the definition of selfish. It's still possible she wanted you to intervene, but I don't follow the rationale of why someone would attempt in the first place then, only to be sectioned.

Whether or not you should act selfishly is the real question. I'm not going to say whether its right or wrong for someone to prevent the ctb of someone close to them, that's not my call to make. I still don't know what the right decision to make was with my partner, however there is nothing I could do to prevent it anyway in my case. All I can say is that now that you have prevented it, you have given yourself the responsibility to make things right by finding out why she wants to ctb and finding a solution for that. Which might be impossible, but at the least you cannot attribute any blame to her from now on. I also think you should have a discussion with her, and ask her what she wants and what you should do in the future. She'll probably (it's likely) tell you that you shouldn't intervene and you'll have your answer to one part, whether you intervene or not after that is still a moral question and not just a question of selfishness. First things first, in my opinion, you need to work towards getting the section removed.

@MidnightDream - FuneralCry has been going through an especially rough period lately, I don't think that last paragraph was called for or justified since that makes you no better. I found it to be a pretty offensive knock at people with PDs tbh. Same for everyone else. We all have our triggers as well. She was just giving her honest opinion whether I agree or not, and I've seen a lot of harsh opinions just being let fly. I do think that anyone that doesn't expect some negative reactions to this thread isn't running with entirely reasonable expectations. People feel bad for the OP, because people will sympathise with the one posting, and this is obviously a horrible situation, but they did also ask for people's opinions, and she gave hers. Lots of us are in horrible situations, it's not just one-way.

FC's trauma is "being alive". That's relatable at least for some of us whatever the reason. If you think of it in terms of different kinds of trauma, then what she says makes perfect sense for her. I have a bunch of traumas, if someone said e.g. they enjoyed pouring boiling water on kids, that'd trigger me too, since that's one of the things I had to go through. If there are some people that won't be satisfied until FC no longer has a voice and cannot lament her suffering then I think that is a sad thing, I cannot imagine there are that many other places online for someone to vent their suicidal feelings without judgement, and it seems even here those views can be judged.

Re: the poll and results. Wrong and selfish are two different things, decisions in life are never that simple.

 

[Scythe]

I wouldn't say it was a selfish act, especially since for all you know, it could've been an impulsive suicide. However, if getting her hospitalized was your idea and not forced onto her because MeDiCal Laws, then yes, that's very wong of you to do. Involuntary hospitalization does more harm than good in a lot of cases and I think it should never ever happen. So I guess do your best to get your wife out of the psych ward if she's still in it.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

I wouldn't say it was a selfish act, especially since for all you know, it could've been an impulsive suicide. However, if getting her hospitalized was your idea and not forced onto her because MeDiCal Laws, then yes, that's very wong of you to do. Involuntary hospitalization does more harm than good in a lot of cases and I think it should never ever happen. So I guess do your best to get your wife out of the psych ward if she's still in it.

True, it could've been impulsive. Ctb attempt can be a decision someone might regret later.

 

[jamie_]

My wife attempted to ctb 3 weeks ago. I took her to hospital where she was very close but was brought back. She has since been sectioned in a hospital and if anything it's been bringing her down more.

I love and cherish my wife and hope to spend my life with her as in her I've found my soulmate, but I'm wondering after reading some posts on here if I'm doing more harm than good by stopping her when she is clearly unhappy and wants to ctb. I want what is best for my wife and I don't want her to suffer in this life or in any other way.

I'm wondering if it isn't worth ctb together as I don't want to be in a world without her, but I don't want to keep her in this world if she is truly unhappy as that would be cruel and selfish of me.

Am I in the wrong for saving my wife? Was that me being selfish because I want to spend my life with her?

I send love to you and your wife. You are a kind-hearted soul far too rare in this world and should not for a second think you are in the wrong. You showed the greatest feat of love during its most difficult moment. And I say this as a suicidal person.

 

[SwissSuicideLady]

No, because it shows that you love her and you didn't want her to suffer

 

[Dot]

Slf jst thnk tht ths = Y = cn b persnlly inappropri8 of a suicdl persn 2 unwillngly invlve sme1 els in thr attmpt

Slf undrstnd tht 'b-ing discovrd' happns & thngs d/ nt g/ 2 plan & if officl channls fr euthnsia wre availble thn suicdl ppl lke OPs wife wld nt b forcd in2 thse typs of stuatns fr attmptng in th/ 1st plce s/ am nt makng jdgemnts eithr sde

Bt fr sme1 2 b unknwngly & unwillngly pt in2 a suddn traumtc stuatn whre thy hve 2 mke snap decsns & thn questn thmslves aftrwrds = nt fair on tht persn

OP = nw lft questnng thmslves fr havng 2 mke thse decsns quckly undr xtreme strss & tht = nt a positn tht OP shld hve bn put in in th/ 1st plce -- if OP hd allowd hs wfe 2 die thn thy cld hve bn lft feelng complict in a lovd 1nes deth w/o wantng 2 & w/o tme 2 emotnlly prepre thmslves fr it

Thnk ths shld b kpt in mnd whn makng charctr or valu jdgemnts agnst a persn wh/ ws jst doin thr bst in a traumtc momnt -- pro-chce ds nt only apply 2 suicdl ppl

 

[donealready]

I feel like the word 'selfish' is a judgement.
It's basically putting your own needs first. Which is what OP did in that moment. It could be said it's also what his wife did.
I certainly am going to be putting my own needs first in CTB. I would bet many of us here are.

 

[MidnightDream]

The dilemma here is that many people react to FC's posts as though she was endowed with a conventional 'mainstream' psychology (for want of a better way of putting it!). They entirely lose sight of / forget the actual person behind FC's posts, and respond accordingly. That's quite understandable - FC frequently irks me as well - but having worked in the field of mental health, I've learnt not to lose sight of who I'm actually interacting with.
​

Just to be clear since it was me who started it this time, I'm fully aware that FC is autistic and so am I. Doesn't make it okay to disrespect others, call people names, call anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with her 'pro-life' whilst simultaneously being completely unwilling to engage in any kind of discussion on her views, civil or otherwise. I really don't think FC realises the impact her words can have on people - OP is a clearly a new member who doesn't know who FC is like we do, has been through something seriously traumatic, is considering ending his own life, etc. Who knows what impact her words could have had on him??? Or anyone else here for that matter? Autism is not an excuse to be an asshat. Autistic people are fully capable of kindness, empathy, compassion etc assuming they want to be. And I guarantee that if FC ever let up even a tiny bit, people here would be more than willing to work with her. But she couldn't even tag me in her response to me so, don't see that happening any time soon.​

 

[Chinaski]

SS USER #1: hi,

FC: get off this website you prolifer

SS USER #2: hey FC maybe you should stop doing this

BLUEM00N: I see the bully clique are out in force, she is autistic and therefore has absolute permission to be poisonous, behold my use of colour


Rinse, repeat until this website becomes a subreddit for tedious copypaste nihilism and anyone seeking a mature discussion on suicide gives this place a wide berth.

 

[Shadowlord900]

To be honest, I don't know enough about the reasons why she wants to end her life to determine what you did was selfish. (Well technically almost every action is selfish, a better way of phrasing it is if you think your actions did more harm than good for her.) But since you mentioned the NHS, I assume you guys live in the UK. Even if she was completely justified in her actions, I can feel somewhat sympathetic for you due to living in a very anti-suicide country like the UK, even if you did nothing to encourage it, not going out of your way to prevent it can unfortunately been seen as encouraging and can get you in massive trouble.

But if you was the one to call the shots to get her sectioned then shame on you! There's far better ways of preventing suicide than getting someone sectioned. Psychiatric wards suck and almost (and I mean like 99.9% so don't bother) never work out well for the person who has to go through with it.

 

[bluem00n]

Just to be clear since it was me who started it this time, I'm fully aware that FC is autistic and so am I ...​

Personally, I don't think persistently hounding and critiquing FC is gonna fix anything, the only consequence is that her opponents end up hijacking / derailing threads ...

After all, FC is at least responding to the OP by expressing her frank and honest opinion, no matter how offcolour it may seem to everyone else. But then - instead of staying on-topic - the thread is promptly derailed by multiple indignant responses to her post. So it's the outcry that repeatedly hijacks threads, not FC. And it's happened yet again on this thread.

The correct approach surely, would be to either use the [Report] button, or post a 'react', else engage the site's 'ignore' function. Or simply let the matter pass. That way, threads can remain on-topic.

After all, I would've thought that by now surely, it must've become blindingly obvious to everyone that FC couldn't give even the slightest flying f*** about anyone's opinion of her posts, that she is genuinely 100% impervious to criticism. If anything, outcrys of indignation just cause her to dig her heels in even more, as reflected in her responses to her detractors.

Oh well, I guess this show is just gonna run and run and run, because both sides are of late more entrenched than ever. Maybe it's best to just observe the futile efforts of the participants in what has turned into a classic example of that famous paradox, of when "an unstoppable force meets an immovable object" (Wikipedia).

PS: I'm sorry @BonnieH that your thread has been somewhat derailed. FC's posts tend to provoke controversy, though the problem would for the most part resolve itself if everyone simply ignored them. Still, I guess "live and let live" doesn't count for much on a site that discusses issues relating to suicide!

OK Then,
All The Best!​

 

[Sister of the Moon]

Many, if not most of the people on here who post seem to be autistic or some other type of neurodiverse, so what excuse is autism? It's the insults I can't stand. She called the new poster disgusting, and this goes on and on and on, every single fucking day of the week. Insulting people then playing the victim. Deciding who is and who isn't welcome here, according to her narrow criteria, which incidentally has nothing to do with the rules of the site as to who is allowed to be here.

This thread is already derailed and I'm sorry for that. I think it's time to put this nonsense to rest once and for all. White knighting the instigator does nothing but encourage them further. People have been banned because of the actions of this one person and it's way out of hand now because she's aggressive to others, name-calling, belligerent, and somehow protected.

Sorry @BonnieH
I incidentally think you did the right thing in saving your wife's life. It's what many people would instinctively do and I hope you and your wife are able to move forwards satisfactorily. It must have been traumatic for both of you and I hope you both get the support you need.

 

[rationaltake]

The dilemma here is that many people react to FC's posts as though she was endowed with a conventional 'mainstream' psychology (for want of a better way of putting it!). They entirely lose sight of / forget the actual person behind FC's posts, and respond accordingly. That's quite understandable - FC frequently irks me as well - but having worked in the field of mental health, I've learnt not to lose sight of who I'm actually interacting with.

Below is an extract from this webpage, that might be useful to bear in mind ...

As a caregiver, friend, teacher or therapist, black and white thinking can sometimes feel intentional or manipulative, especially when it happens again and again and in similar situations.

Black and white, also known as polarized thinking patterns, are ways of thinking that just make sense to people with ASD. Individuals on the spectrum struggle with the nuances and non-verbal gestures and communication that exist in interpersonal interactions and communication standards that may come more naturally to others.

For example, anything lower than a 100% on a math quiz = failure. And, that's even if the actual grade earned is a 97%. Handling conflicts is a tough one to begin with, but for someone with ASD, an argument or lack of agreement about a topic = no more friendship. A young woman with ASD may get in an argument with a friend at school and immediately feel they are not friends with this person anymore, struggling to understand that disagreements are a natural part of any relationship and can be worked through. These automatic thoughts can lead to significant setbacks in a child's academic and social functioning.
​

People on this site are not caregivers or teachers or therapists for other members - though some people develop friendships. An online discussion group is entirely different from a therapy group.

I want to avoid derailing this thread, so I'l try and be brief!

You're right - more flexible thinking is indeed quite achievable with ASD folk. However, that outcome is best accomplished with methods that are sensitive to the nature of the affliction, some of which are summarised on the webpage I linked.

Trouble is, those techniques aren't employed here at all ... people tend to pile on to FC with rather heavy-handed criticisms that have either lost sight of, or are unacquainted with, the psychology they're responding to, so she inevitably digs her heels in. To influence FC's style of communication, a lot more subtle and far less confrontational approach would be needed, otherwise the situation remains devolved into the unending stalemate we've seen of late, where both sides adopt intractable / entrenched positions in perpetuity.​

Why should people on here be employing "techniques" to communicate with a particular user? We're not their psychologist. We're not here to treat people.

You're making speculative posts concerning a particular member's condition purely off your own bat. This is disrespectful. It's fine to respond to a particlar member if they mention their condition and ask for comments or help. Otherwise it's nobody else's business. So this discussion of what you call their "affliction" is entirely irrelevant and a red herring.

The point is that this website can only work if all members are held to the same standard of behaviour. Nobody here should have a free pass to insult and belittle other members. The rule about treating others with respect just needs to be applied to this member. What's so controversial about that?

 

[RainAndSadness]

>Someone asks for honest opinion about a subject.
>Someone gives a honest opinion about a subject.
>It turns the entire thread into a mess.

I'll lock this for now because nobody cares about the topic anymore, instead the post of one member seems to be the highlight of the discussion. Any derailings will be warned.

EDIT:
Done. Warnings have been given. Thread is open again, I'll give it another chance because the OP seems to have an open mind and they deserve to receive constructive input. I hope future contributions will be about the question of the topic though.

>
>
>

About the topic.

I've noticed something. People seem to have a very strong bias in favor of saving people they love - even people who are pro-choice seem to have that bias as we can see in this thread. And that's very confusing. 75% of people who participated in the poll here said it's okay to save someone from suicide, despite(!) the fact that in this situation the person that tried to end their life attempted repeatedly(!) in the past and it's even hinted in this thread that this person is deeply unhappy now after they've been saved. How is it okay to violate the autonomy of another person in that case? I'm pretty sure most people here answered they way they did because the OP described their "love" to their wife. But that leads me to the next question: does loving someone make it okay to violate their individual autonomy?

I'm sure if we reversed the roles for a second, and this is directed at the people who voted "no" in this poll, and you were the one that were saved from an attempt to end their life, your reaction to this scenario would be entirely different. I'm pretty sure if this happened to any of you, and the general consensus about saving someone in this forum seems to confirm this, we would read threads about your experience as we did in the past, and you would probably claim it's unfair that someone intefered with your individual autonomy. And I'm pretty sure in that case 75% of the community would share the notion that interfering with someones attempt is unfair. I've read a thread once about a man that was saved during their attempt and it ended in severe disability and the reactions of this community wasn't so kind to the people who saved that man. See this example here. I think there is a double standard at display here. If the person in this scenario here ended up paralzyed and disabled, would you still say saving them wasn't selfish?

I think this community seems to have very conflicting views about their right to suicide on one hand and their right to save people they love on the other hand. Apparently, loving someone makes it okay to intefere with deeply personal decisions. That makes me believe that for most people, loving someone is an inherently selfish process. That's spooky to me.

 

[BonnieH]

This is a really interesting point. Can I reply to this here or do I need to make a new thread?

Go for it here if you want as it's a very interesting point.

 

[Suicidebydeath]

But that leads me to the next question: does loving someone make it okay to violate their individual autonomy?

I would say no, I would say this even if I didn't have an extremely biased life with my autonomy already constantly violated. If you love someone, it should be not what you think is best for them, but what the other person wants. Just as it would be extremely upsetting to have your own autonomy interfered with.

I'm sure if we reversed the roles for a second, and this is directed at the people who voted "no" in this poll, and you were the one that were saved from an attempt to end their life, your reaction to this scenario would be entirely different. I'm pretty sure if this happened to any of you, and the general consensus about saving someone in this forum seems to confirm this, we would read threads about your experience as we did in the past, and you would probably claim it's unfair that someone intefered with your individual autonomy. And I'm pretty sure in that case 75% of the community would share the notion that interfering with someones attempt is unfair.

This is how I viewed it. If it was anyone that truly wanted to die, they would not want someone to interfere with their attempt, attempts to ctb are already unfairly difficult as it is. Whether its an attempt from impulsiveness or not makes it a grey area for me, and I'm still unsure how to feel about that. If they make multiple attempts and its not impulsive its clear-cut. I think one of the reasons people might respond the way they do in this thread is because the OP draws sympathy, whether intentional or not.

I think this community seems to have very conflicting views about their right to suicide on one hand and their right to save people they love on the other hand. Apparently, loving someone makes it okay to intefere with deeply personal decisions. That makes me believe that for most people, loving someone is an inherently selfish process. That's spooky to me.

I don't think its just "loving" someone, I think most people are inherently selfish and so their long term actions have a selfish bent. Not everyone presents love in the same way after all. I'm sure love is very complicated and presents in many different ways. My family, and they did truly horrible things, probably "love" but in a way that is incredibly toxic and damaging. Many people "love" but really they just desire the person's company, so keeping them around is selfish, nobody would want to admit that though and sorry if that sounds skeptical. I agree though, for most people, love is selfish, and I think its really more desire and want, than true love.

@OP I don't think it was wrong, I think you might have had to make a quick judgement call. So I changed my vote now that the thread is reopened. I don't think there is enough information to call a decision right/wrong and it might be an impossible question. Having been in this situation myself and it having the other result "she ctb", I cannot say for sure I know what the right thing to do is. I tend to take what people say at face value, so if she told me she cannot be happy and wants to die that's what I'll believe. I think shes at peace now and if she was suffering before than she isn't suffering any longer. I miss her though but things go on.

However, the only opinion that matter is your wife's. If she's okay with what you did then it's all good.

I think this is important and its way up there at the top of the thread. I can imagine there are a few ghosts out there "Why didn't you stop me?", but not everyone and that is what makes it so damn complicated.

 

[rationaltake]

Go for it here if you want as it's a very interesting point.

Thank you. Just to say I think you're doing the best you can and you're very open-minded to be asking the question in the first place. I'm sorry you're in this difficult position and I apologise for my previous post which really should have been a new thread.

I've noticed something. People seem to have a very strong bias in favor of saving people they love - even people who are pro-choice seem to have that bias as we can see in this thread. And that's very confusing. 75% of people who participated in the poll here said it's okay to save someone from suicide, despite(!) the fact that in this situation the person that tried to end their life attempted repeatedly(!) in the past and it's even hinted in this thread that this person is deeply unhappy now after they've been saved. How is it okay to violate the autonomy of another person in that case? I'm pretty sure most people here answered they way they did because the OP described their "love" to their wife. But that leads me to the next question: does loving someone make it okay to violate their individual autonomy?

I'm sure if we reversed the roles for a second, and this is directed at the people who voted "no" in this poll, and you were the one that were saved from an attempt to end their life, your reaction to this scenario would be entirely different. I'm pretty sure if this happened to any of you, and the general consensus about saving someone in this forum seems to confirm this, we would read threads about your experience as we did in the past, and you would probably claim it's unfair that someone intefered with your individual autonomy. And I'm pretty sure in that case 75% of the community would share the notion that interfering with someones attempt is unfair. I've read a thread once about a man that was saved during their attempt and it ended in severe disability and the reactions of this community wasn't so kind to the people who saved that man. See this example here. I think there is a double standard at display here. If the person in this scenario here ended up paralzyed and disabled, would you stay saving them wasn't selfish?

I think this community seems to have very conflicting views about their right to suicide on one hand and their right to save people they love on the other hand. Apparently, loving someone makes it okay to intefere with deeply personal decisions. That makes me believe that for most people, loving someone is an inherently selfish process. That's spooky to me.

I can see where you're coming from with this.

But I'd just like to consider autonomy in the case of a couple - married or not - those who have a committment to each other.

Not all couples will be the same but being together usually means having some kind of joint life with responsibilities towards each other. There can be an emotional connection - a financial connection - children - companionship. A lot is invested in one relationship.

Both parties usually give up some measure of autonomy to make it work. At the very least partners need to discuss issues and keep each other informed. They often have a joint or inter-dependent life.

In that situation one partner committing suicide can devastate the person who is left behind. There are people on here who no longer want to live due to breaking up with their partner or their partner dying or committing suicide.

It doesn't mean that people who are married or in a couple don't have the right to end their own lives. But it does make things difficult if one person wants to live and the other doesn't.

The instinct of the person who wants to live is to protect their own life and the life of their partner. It takes a lot of compassion to accept that your partner wants to die and to allow them to make that choice.

My personal take is that if I voluntarily become part of a couple then I have a responsibility to my partner - as they have a responsibility to me.

I would be angry if a stranger intervened in my suicide but I would understand if a partner did. Personally - if possible - I would let a partner know that I wanted to end my life. But I wouldn't let them know when or where.

Obviously things can go wrong and people can be found. Anybody who attempts suicide takes the risk of being stopped and the risk of disabilty.

Would I intervene in a partner's suicide? I don't know. I haven't been in that position so can't say.

Life is complicated. Relationships are complicated. Suicide is complicated.

Things would be easier - not easy - if assisted suicide were available.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think this community seems to have very conflicting views about their right to suicide on one hand and their right to save people they love on the other hand. Apparently, loving someone makes it okay to intefere with deeply personal decisions. That makes me believe that for most people, loving someone is an inherently selfish process. That's spooky to me.

I think it is a very difficult subject. My answer- 'no' the OP wasn't wrong or selfish I suppose was based on the circumstances I imagined he found his wife in, plus the paragraph after- which showed that he isn't a selfish person at all. He is deeply invested in doing the right thing for his wife.

I don't think his actions at the time sounded like they had much thought behind them. They were out of panic. The problem I have is some people acting like he deliberately and callously went against his wifes wishes (which it could be argued he did) but I don't think he was thinking that at the time. I don't think it was a conscious decision to do that anyway.

I appreciate that the OP said that she had attempted in the past but this new attempt appeared to come out of the blue. I think that's the problem- it's a split second decision after an almighty shock. I get the impression- if the OP actually knew how much his wife was suffering and what her wishes were- maybe he would find the strength to let her go.

Put it this way- if my Dad stumbled upon me mid attempt- he would 100% try to save me. I'd hate it that he succeeded but I couldn't hate him for trying. He doesn't know how I feel (nor did the OP at the time.) It's a kneejerk reaction to save the person you love. For them yes but for you as well. If they're not aware of your mindframe at the period leading up to it, they may well think you're having a psychotic break.

The other example is one we've talked about- if you saw someone about to jump- what would you do? I hope I wouldn't take away their autonomy to make their own choice. At the same time- I think I would try to talk to them. That's weirdly at odds with what I stand for in a way. I suppose the absolute pro-choice person would just let them jump.

It's just the scenario I can't get my head around. Sitting by someone while they receive assisted suicide is VERY different to stumbling in on someone mid attempt (when you weren't expecting it at all.) I just wonder how many of us WOULD actually either leave them to die or, stay and witness it.

I can honestly say- for me- it would depend. If I KNEW they were deeply unhappy and suicidal, I might just be able to let them go. If it was a complete shock though- that's difficult. Obviously depending on the method, could you even be sure it was a suicide attempt? If you find someone unconscious by a bottle of pills or an empty glass of water- how do you know if it wasn't an accidental overdose or an allergic reaction? Bear in mind- you have to make all these decisions split second. I don't think there's the time to morally reason everything out when you are faced with an emergency situation. That's my feeling anyhow.

Plus- love is selfish I'm afraid. Otherwise we wouldn't even bother grieving for people at all. If you can honestly say you're able to just cut off those feelings in an instant (without coming to terms with them), I'd say you're either have the selflessness of a saint, or the logic of a robot. Over time- definitely- I think many people who deeply love someone would find it within their hearts to let them go- if they understood the pain they were in. It's the split second decision element to this that I think makes it difficult.

Of course- that's why it would be so much better if suicide and depression weren't so stigmatised. If people felt like they could actually talk about these things more- we'd perhaps be more sympathetic to one another and less shocked when something like this does happen.

 

[RainAndSadness]

Thank you. Just to say I think you're doing the best you can and you're very open-minded to be asking the question in the first place. I'm sorry you're in this difficult position and I apologise for my previous post which really should have been a new thread.

I can see where you're coming from with this.

But I'd just like to consider autonomy in the case of a couple - married or not - those who have a committment to each other.

Not all couples will be the same but being together usually means having some kind of joint life with responsibilities towards each other. There can be an emotional connection - a financial connection - children - companionship. A lot is invested in one relationship.

Both parties usually give up some measure of autonomy to make it work. At the very least partners need to discuss issues and keep each other informed. They often have a joint or inter-dependent life.

In that situation one partner committing suicide can devastate the person who is left behind. There are people on here who no longer want to live due to breaking up with their partner or their partner dying or committing suicide.

It doesn't mean that people who are married or in a couple don't have the right to end their own lives. But it does make things difficult if one person wants to live and the other doesn't.

The instincts of the person who wants to live is to protect their own life and the life of their partner. It takes a lot of compassion to accept that your partner wants to die and to allow them to make that choice.

My personal take is that if I voluntarily become part of a couple then I have a responsibility to my partner - as they have a responsibility to me.

I would be angry if a stranger intervened in my suicide but I would understand if a partner did. Personally - if possible - I would let a partner know that I wanted to end my life. But I wouldn't let them know when or where.

Obviously things can go wrong and people can be found. Anybody who attempts suicide takes the risk of being stopped and the risk of disabilty.

Would I intervene in a partner's suicide? I don't know. I haven't been in that position so can't say.

Life is complicated. Relationships are complicated. Suicide is complicated.

Things would be easier - not easy - if assisted suicide were available.

You have a good point. It's a difficult situation when you're married or even in a relationship. And it comes with a moral dilemma. I've thought about this myself because I was in a relationship when I was actively suicidal in the past. I would probably end the relationship before I exercise my right to die because I prefer to take care of all business before I leave and it also ends the responsibilities you've talked about. And these do exist when you're in a relatioship but I think you can settle these questions when you have an open line of communication. Communication is the key to all healthy relationships. All my ex-partners knew about my mental state and they understood. We were on an even ground and if we weren't, I wouldn't have been in a relationship with them. I think these are issues you need to discuss when you're in a relationship with another person. I've read stories of people whose partners left unexpectedly, without communicating their suicidal thoughts and some didn't even leave a goodbye note and it hurt them a lot. The uncertainity of a sudden suicide without any explanation, it makes people blame themselves. You expose your partner to a lot of unnecessary trauma if you commit suicide when you're still in an active relationship with each other and when you don't communicate boundaries. And boundaries is important, even more when you're suicidal and that includes discussing if you want someone to save you from an attempt. So yeah, you have a responsibility if you're in a relationship with someone but what's probably more important is to discuss your boundaries. I would talk to my partner about that and I would talk about the implications of one of us committing suicide. I think communication is important, especially when you're suicidal.

I don't know how much communication OP had with their wife about this particular situation but given there was a history of suicide attempts, I would hope they talked about this topic and discussed what should happen in a case like this. I think that's an important factor that's left out in this conversation.

Regarding assisted suicide, I have an interesting anecdote for you. An ex-girlfriend of mine once told me that her grandmother ended her life with assisted suicide while her husband was on vacation. She basically sent him an SMS a few hours prior and when he came back from the vaccation, she was already gone. So this kind of secret planning can also happen in a country that legalized assisted suicide. But I think it's a good thing that you aren't legally bound to notify family members before you die because the existence of assisted suicide doesn't mean everyone in your family will suddenly be okay with a close one dying. Even if most people agree with suicide on principle for rational reasons, a loved one deciding to take their life can change a pro-choice attitude quickly, for emotional reasons.

 

[LaVieEnRose]

At least OP recognizes the harm of the punitive psychiatric machinery. None of the people who imposed their vision of what was in my "best interest" (parents, providers, friend) gave a single fuck about the harm it caused.

 

[rationaltake]

You have a good point. It's a difficult situation when you're married or even in a relationship. And it comes with a moral dilemma. I've thought about this myself because I was in a relationship when I was actively suicidal in the past. I would probably end the relationship before I exercise my right to die because I prefer to take care of all business before I leave and it also ends the responsibilities you've talked about. And these do exist when you're in a relatioship but I think you can settle these questions when you have an open line of communication. Communication is the key to all healthy relationships. All my ex-partners knew about my mental state and they understood. We were on an even ground and if we weren't, I wouldn't have been in a relationship with them. I think these are issues you need to discuss when you're in a relationship with another person. I've read stories of people whose partners left unexpectedly, without communicating their suicidal thoughts and some didn't even leave a goodbye note and it hurt them a lot. The uncertainity of a sudden suicide without any explanation, it makes people blame themselves. You expose your partner to a lot of unnecessary trauma if you commit suicide when you're still in an active relationship with each other and when you don't communicate boundaries. And boundaries is important, even more when you're suicidal and that includes discussing if you want someone to save you from an attempt. So yeah, you have a responsibility if you're in a relationship with someone but what's probably more important is to discuss your boundaries. I would talk to my partner about that and I would talk about the implications of one of us committing suicide. I think communication is important, especially when you're suicidal.

I don't know how much communication OP had with their wife about this particular situation but given there was a history of suicide attempts, I would hope they talked about this topic and discussed what should happen in a case like this. I think that's an important factor that's left out in this conversation.

You're right. Communication is key but can be so difficult. It's encouraging that you've been able to be up-front with partners. As we've said before on here mentioning suicide is often taboo. I sometimes wonder if it's any easier in a country where assisted suicide is legal?

Regarding assisted suicide, I have an interesting anecdote for you. An ex-girlfriend of mine once told me that her grandmother ended her life with assisted suicide while her husband was on vacation. She basically sent him an SMS a few hours prior and when he came back from the vaccation, she was already gone. So this kind of secret planning can also happen in a country that legalized assisted suicide. But I think it's a good thing that you aren't legally bound to notify family members before you die because the existence of assisted suicide doesn't mean everyone in your family will suddenly be okay with a close one dying. Even if most people agree with suicide on principle for rational reasons, a loved one deciding to take their life can change a pro-choice attitude quickly, for emotional reasons.

Wow! That must have been a massive shock for the husband. At least he didn't have to find her and she had the security of knowing it wouldn't result in a failed attempt. I could actually imagine myself doing something like this in certain circumstances tbh.

You are spot-on about rational and emotional reasons. That explains a lot about this thread actually.

 

[Samsara]

I don't think it's selfish. I'd never want to put someone who loved me in a position where they found me or were aware I was about to ctb and had the ability and power to save me - how could I blame them for wanting to save me? It's why if I ever ctb'd, I'd never tell anyone who loved me unless I was sure they didn't have ANY way of saving me (e.g., had no idea where I was and had no way of finding out where I was). I most certainly would never ctb if I thought there was any remote chance I could be found, since there's no way I could blame them for wanting to save me - it's only a natural reaction for them to try to save me, and one I would expect.

 

[rationaltake]

Looking at the vote. At this point 98 people have voted and 73.5% have said no it's not wrong or selfish.

 

[Per Ardua Ad Astra]

Legality — vs emotional vs rational vs "love" ?

Ctb assistance is illegal in my adopted country — but not my homeland.
Sadly too debilitated to travel home.

My spouse would feel obligated to save me because it would appear to be illegal ctb assistance.

Spouse didn't report my failed attempts or I'd be hospitalized against my will.

Spouse doesn't want to be prosecuted either way.

And as my so-called "carer" (on paper only ; no training to manage my conditions — thus inability to actually aid with basic hygiene or provide proper medical aids) — is held to higher standards.

No help from social/ care services/ can't afford private.

Despite seeing how physically excruciating my existence is — and my severe disabilities — gatekeeper-spouse refuses to even allow me access/ use of my funds to acquire any relatively peaceful means to an end.

But — If tables were turned— spouse would expect ctb assistance of me…As discussed / agreed when both healthy.

But Im the loser who got harmed by "medical professionals".

Spouse talks about how "their life is ruined" — due to my body / life being utterly and painfully destroyed.

And spouse often says they want to ctb because of me — yet they have everything to live for — if not for me.

It's hurtful.

There are only so many levels of pain and suffering I can bear

I'm trapped and desperately want out.
It's inhumane and torturous.

Spouse sees this but refuses to give up false hope and belief in miracles

 

[TAW122]

I voted yes out of principle and the act itself. I do empathize that emotions do get in the way and that affected the savior's judgment and action at the time, and it is a difficult situation. It is even more difficult if someone is an mandated reporter or someone who has a duty to save (law enforcement, medical professionals, psychiatrists, teachers, etc.).

With that said, it is a dilemma overall, because on one hand, a person may not be willing to talk about it simply for this very reason, being intervened upon, but likewise, if they DO talk about it or show signs of it and express the wishes to die, it can be misconstrued as impulsive and irrational (even when it is not). Either way, it's a no-win situation for the suicidal person's wishes, because the suicide prevention people will always want to save them and never respect the suicidal person's wishes, regardless of how eloquent, well reasoned, or well prepared, planned (non-impulsive) attempt that the suicidal person has.

Another way of wording this is: If the wife during the 2 years had made multiple attempts and continued to express her wishes to die (suicidal ideation and intention), then she would (according to preventionists) be deemed irrational and not able to choose to die as it (to prolifers and preventionists alike) is viewed as irrational. But instead, she has not attempted in those 2 years and prolifers/preventionists view it as a recovery even though she was suffering in silence. To her defense, she could have kept quiet solely because she didn't want to be saved, be interfered with, yet she still was and there is no doubt, she feels even upset than before.

So in simple terms, it seems like anything the suicidal does is always deemed irrational such that they wouldn't give any signs then that means it is an impulsive decision which by default (according to prolifers) makes one irrational and lacking capacity to make said decision. On the other hand, if the suicidal makes multiple attempts and even clearly, eloquently expresses their wish to die, they are also deemed irrational and/or (worse) a cry for help.

At the end, I do feel sorry for the wife as she is suffering more as a result of the intervention and it is clear (to me) that she wanted to go and her wishes were not respected, even if the savior had 'good intentions'.