Discussion Vulnerability

[Forever Sleep]

I think the label of 'vulnerability' is used a lot when criticising forums like this. This usually relates to minors and the mentally ill. I want to focus on mental illness and depression here. (I'm hoping that there aren't any minors here to be honest.)

I think there's a belief that some people are simply not in a rational enough state of mind to be able to make authentic decisions for themselves. Especially when it comes to the wish to take your own life.

I suppose the idea is twofold then- firstly that (if we even conceed that the person has a mental illness that) mentally ill people can't make rational decisions. How do you feel about this? Do you even believe you have a mental illness? If so- does it change how you think? Do you have say periods of time in which you feel your mental competency is diminished? If so- are you aware of it while you are experiencing it?

Presumably- if you are (and it troubles you,) do you take steps to 'protect' yourself? Would you still be in an objective enough state of mind say to not access a site like this- if you felt it was increasing your ideation? (Presuming that you didn't want to act on it deep down.)

I'm just curious really. If I have anything, it's (VERY) longterm mild to moderate depression. Still, my thoughts have never felt disorganised. I feel like I would know if I was being coexed or influenced into something- whether I wanted to do it or not.

That seems to be a ridiculous criticism of this place- that it's some kind of death cult. Personally, I'd say we are by and large a group of VERY headstrong individuals. You have to be fairly headstrong to individually consider suicide I think- it is absolute antipathy to most of society. What about you though? Do you reckon you are the sort of person who is susceptible to cult thinking?

I suppose the VERY first time I thought about suicide, it kind of shocked and frightened me. Mainly the realisation that I was THAT unhappy that only death could release me. Then- the fear of the act itself- that it would very likely hurt. It didn't take long though for me to see that my initial reaction was predictable because I was always taught that suicide was wrong- and I was always afraid of doing things wrong. (I was a child at the time.) Very quickly, the idea just became a natural response to how utterly shit my life felt at the time.

That brings me to the second point- authenticity. I think the 'normies' like to see suicidal ideation as an affliction. Something that has latched itself onto someone but can be removed- just like mental illness (supposedly.) That this way of thinking (should) have nothing to do with the authentic person.

How true is this for you? I suppose it COULD be true for some people. I think some people DO experience it as an unwelcome impulse. Still, my ideation has always felt authentically a part of my thinking. A natural response- perhaps an extreme one but that's for me to judge surely? If I don't see the benefits of life outweighing the suffering- what does it matter how someone else thinks my life SHOULD feel like?

In any case- that still doesn't seem like a good argument to me against someone wanting to act on their impulses. EVEN IF their ideation is attributed to illness- by them as well as medical professionals- what good does that do if they can't be cured?!! They may agree that it isn't the real 'them' having these thoughts- but if they are still being tormented by them- how does that help?!!

I'm not saying my (presumably) relatively mild depression COULDN'T be reversed. I'm not saying I have become the ideal version of my potential. I certainly haven't. Like most people here- life has bashed me about and I've developed some unhealthy coping mechanisms that ironically- haven't helped me at all long term. Still- that's life. To get me back on track would doubtlessly need a lot of therapy and meds maybe. Are therapy and drugs good for 'vulnerable' people? Not at all in some cases here!

Bottomline though- just because we don't toe the line and conform to popular anti-suicide/anti-choice ideas- does that REALLY mean that we can't annalyse our lives and options and come to rational decisions? Just because we MIGHT be depressed, or mentally ill- does that mean we're not responsible for our own actions? (Bear in mind I find it unlikely many of us would be let off on an insanity plea if we chose to kill someone else.) Is depression REALLY an illness- in ALL cases- or- is it at least in part a reaction to a difficult life? Can someone feel authentically suicidal, or is it some affliction- just like a disease?

 

[Darkover]

suicide will always be a rational choice when faced with a horrible lifetime
given the choice between the lesser of two evils selecting not to live in unpleasantly cruel situation
mentally ill people make the decisions to end thier misery is a rational choice
i know i'd rather die than have to live like this picture shows

 

[Forever Sleep]

suicide will always be a rational choice when faced with a horrible lifetime
given the choice between the lesser of two evils selecting not to live in unpleasantly cruel situation
mentally ill people make the decisions to end thier misery is a rational choice
i know i'd rather die than have to live like this picture shows
View attachment 104262

Those poor people. I can't even imagine living like that. Sorry if this is offensive to anyone but I also can't imagine living like that AND thinking it was ok to have children to allow that suffering to just continue- to your own children!

I don't know. My Dad says it's cultural differences but I just can't get my head around it. If you're starving and suffering- what makes you think your children won't be too?

 

[Sparr0w]

i think a lot of people here will probably disagree with me, probably for good reason, but i think it's pretty hard to be suicidal and rational (about your want for death, specifically).

of course, this more-so refers to people whos suicidal thoughts come more from depression and less terminal illness/old age kinda shit, but as animals, we have two life goals: fuck and live. the sex part is less important now that theres like 8 billion humans, but the "live" part is still the base of both animals and plants. to not want to live is basically saying fuck you to like, several billion years of evolution.

to link back to my main point, wanting to die means that a fair bits wrong in your brain chemistry. your emotions, life suitation, whatever. its gotta be at least a lil fucked up. and most (if not all) people here would probably be able to spout how theyve had depression for 90 million years or their wife and kids didnt exist and theyre a virgin and 80 or whatever.

as such, most suicidal people arent really "rational" in their want for death, because its not how a, for lack of a better term, "correctly operating human" should work. in my opinion, anyway. i include myself in this because i think way too much about suicide even though like... my lifes not that bad man. i can take some other steps first, sheesh.

from what ive seen, a lot of members here are/were in therapy and it didnt help. or their suitation sucks so much ass that i cant really feel justified in telling them to live. so even though suicide might be 'irrational', i would also say that if u want them to live u should go get them the very best therapist or advice or something instead of just whining about it, if that makes sense?

to be honest, i think this site acts a deterrent if anything. members get so looped up in perfecting their plan and making sure they die For Reals that suddenly its 5 years later.

i hope ive explained what i mean clearly enough, i know my line of reasoning tends to be a bitch to follow (blame it on the 'tism lol)

 

[Forever Sleep]

i think a lot of people here will probably disagree with me, probably for good reason, but i think it's pretty hard to be suicidal and rational (about your want for death, specifically).

of course, this more-so refers to people whos suicidal thoughts come more from depression and less terminal illness/old age kinda shit, but as animals, we have two life goals: fuck and live. the sex part is less important now that theres like 8 billion humans, but the "live" part is still the base of both animals and plants. to not want to live is basically saying fuck you to like, several billion years of evolution.

to link back to my main point, wanting to die means that a fair bits wrong in your brain chemistry. your emotions, life suitation, whatever. its gotta be at least a lil fucked up. and most (if not all) people here would probably be able to spout how theyve had depression for 90 million years or their wife and kids didnt exist and theyre a virgin and 80 or whatever.

as such, most suicidal people arent really "rational" in their want for death, because its not how a, for lack of a better term, "correctly operating human" should work. in my opinion, anyway. i include myself in this because i think way too much about suicide even though like... my lifes not that bad man. i can take some other steps first, sheesh.

from what ive seen, a lot of members here are/were in therapy and it didnt help. or their suitation sucks so much ass that i cant really feel justified in telling them to live. so even though suicide might be 'irrational', i would also say that if u want them to live u should go get them the very best therapist or advice or something instead of just whining about it, if that makes sense?

to be honest, i think this site acts a deterrent if anything. members get so looped up in perfecting their plan and making sure they die For Reals that suddenly its 5 years later.

i hope ive explained what i mean clearly enough, i know my line of reasoning tends to be a bitch to follow (blame it on the 'tism lol)

I can't deny- it IS against our natural instinct to kill ourselves- it's why we have to battle our SI afterall. Still- just how 'natural' to you think modern humans are?

The way I see it- is that our brains have different layers to them. The instinctual and oldest part is the bit that controls the stuff like breathing, heart beat, sex drive, survival instinct. Still- I don't think much of what I understand as 'me' lives in that part of my brain. My shitty self awareness, consciousness and ability to think is what makes me think I am who I am. I'm not so sure that part IS related that much to nature anymore. It's THAT part of me that wants to die. It's that part of me that will need to take control to do it- to overcome the other part!

It's THAT part of me that is telling me that I don't enjoy this life and I don't want to make the effort to change. It's my perception- which has been formed by living my life up to this moment. Is my perception wrong? Maybe it would be to someone else. I'm absolutely sure there are people out there who would love to have a crack at my life. That's not my experience though. Is my experience 'natural'? No- but then- my life hasn't been all that 'natural'. What human lives according to natural laws anymore? We are cultural beings.

You say you have suicidal ideation despite your life not being all that bad. I'm curious then- do you attribute your thoughts to illness then? Are they totally random, or do they relate to anything- I want to die because of this... or to get away from this... Sorry to be intrusive. I'm just curious. I suppose we all only have our own experience to go by.

Anyhow, I would argue that a lot of what we do is suicidal in the long run. We have the (perhaps) unique perspective of being able to view ourselves in the world. We KNOW we are destroying it- yet, for the main part- we just carry on. We KNOW that alcohol, smoking and a fast food diet is killing us slowly- yet we CHOOSE to carry on.

We do PLENTY of other things that aren't 'natural'. We wear clothes. We use contraception, we CHOOSE not to have children at all. How do you suppose homosexuality fits in with nature? There are plenty of homosexual examples in the animal world also. It's a curious phenomena don't you think? (I'm not at all homophobic by the way.)

We're not continually driven by our instincts. Humans in particular have even made legal and religious laws to curb some of our rampant instinctual needs. I'd say- in the human brain- thinking trumps instinct.

PERHAPS it is 'diseased' thinking if it happens to go against 'natural' urges- but, does that mean that person ISN'T mentally capable and responsible? That's the main crux of my argument here. When someone murders their own family members- is it ALWAYS manslaughter by reason of diminished responsibility? Surely it is insane to murder your own children for instance? (Yet that sometimes ALSO happens in the animal kingdom.) Are they not responsible then? Or do some of them do it with full knowledge of what they are doing and that it's wrong? By the same token- in many cases- isn't someone who chooses to CTB aware of what they are doing? Or- are they acting with diminished responsibility also?

I do actually agree with you on the one hand. I can't even be sure that I'm not slightly crazy! I'm not qualified to know. Still, I'm not convinced that the so-called 'professionals' are either. I certainly seem to see life differently than people I know. I'm still not convinced that I'm irrational though. I definitely wouldn't describe myself as 'vulnerable' in any case. I'm WAY too stubborn for that!

 

[FuneralCry]

The wish to leave this world will always be the most logical thing to me, as to die is the only way to solve all problems and prevent future torment. Nobody can guarantee that they won't end up in a situation of extreme torture, so to me it makes sense to wish to avoid all of the risks that come with existing as after all chance determines everything. We are simply all destined to die anyway so to me it makes sense not wanting to delay the inevitable. Existence is the thing that is harmful instead and there are simply no disadvantages to being dead.

But I think the problem with pro lifers is that they label all suicidal people as being 'vulnerable' and 'mentally ill', which is a view that doesn't reflect reality and they say this just so they can make it seem justified restricting suicide method options. No matter what, everybody deserves the right to die, and if someone managed to succeed with suicide it meant that they wanted to die. Suicide is something which isn't straightforward after all to succeed with, and one has to find a method that actually works as well as managing to overcome survival instincts.
But I just think that people should be able to die if they want to and nobody else should have any say in it, and someone else's wish to die is not something for others to judge. In my case I'm in no way mentally ill, I just despise life and see it as not being worth enduring and it makes sense for me to feel that way.

 

[Sparr0w]

I can't deny- it IS against our natural instinct to kill ourselves- it's why we have to battle our SI afterall. Still- just how 'natural' to you think modern humans are?

The way I see it- is that our brains have different layers to them. The instinctual and oldest part is the bit that controls the stuff like breathing, heart beat, sex drive, survival instinct. Still- I don't think much of what I understand as 'me' lives in that part of my brain. My shitty self awareness, consciousness and ability to think is what makes me think I am who I am. I'm not so sure that part IS related that much to nature anymore. It's THAT part of me that wants to die. It's that part of me that will need to take control to do it- to overcome the other part!

It's THAT part of me that is telling me that I don't enjoy this life and I don't want to make the effort to change. It's my perception- which has been formed by living my life up to this moment. Is my perception wrong? Maybe it would be to someone else. I'm absolutely sure there are people out there who would love to have a crack at my life. That's not my experience though. Is my experience 'natural'? No- but then- my life hasn't been all that 'natural'. What human lives according to natural laws anymore? We are cultural beings.

You say you have suicidal ideation despite your life not being all that bad. I'm curious then- do you attribute your thoughts to illness then? Are they totally random, or do they relate to anything- I want to die because of this... or to get away from this... Sorry to be intrusive. I'm just curious. I suppose we all only have our own experience to go by.

Anyhow, I would argue that a lot of what we do is suicidal in the long run. We have the (perhaps) unique perspective of being able to view ourselves in the world. We KNOW we are destroying it- yet, for the main part- we just carry on. We KNOW that alcohol, smoking and a fast food diet is killing us slowly- yet we CHOOSE to carry on.

We do PLENTY of other things that aren't 'natural'. We wear clothes. We use contraception, we CHOOSE not to have children at all. How do you suppose homosexuality fits in with nature? There are plenty of homosexual examples in the animal world also. It's a curious phenomena don't you think? (I'm not at all homophobic by the way.)

We're not continually driven by our instincts. Humans in particular have even made legal and religious laws to curb some of our rampant instinctual needs. I'd say- in the human brain- thinking trumps instinct.

PERHAPS it is 'diseased' thinking if it happens to go against 'natural' urges- but, does that mean that person ISN'T mentally capable and responsible? That's the main crux of my argument here. When someone murders their own family members- is it ALWAYS manslaughter by reason of diminished responsibility? Surely it is insane to murder your own children for instance? (Yet that sometimes ALSO happens in the animal kingdom.) Are they not responsible then? Or do some of them do it with full knowledge of what they are doing and that it's wrong? By the same token- in many cases- isn't someone who chooses to CTB aware of what they are doing? Or- are they acting with diminished responsibility also?

I do actually agree with you on the one hand. I can't even be sure that I'm not slightly crazy! I'm not qualified to know. Still, I'm not convinced that the so-called 'professionals' are either. I certainly seem to see life differently than people I know. I'm still not convinced that I'm irrational though. I definitely wouldn't describe myself as 'vulnerable' in any case. I'm WAY too stubborn for that!

id agree with you on a lot of this! i watched an interesting video the other day talking about how humans probably have reduced instincts compared to other animals because, combined with how long it takes to raise a human child, it makes us very flexible since we learn from pur parents and so forth.

for a lot of your points on "humans wear clothes/use contraception", thats because we're a tool-using species. weve actually evolved to fit our own, man-made enviroment, which is why we're so soft and squishy! its pretty interesting, tbh.
choosing not to have kids is... honestly, my theory would be that since having too many animals compared to resources in that area, not having kids might be a way to population-control so that you dont end up fighting over resources.

most of "why would humans do x when its gonna rock our shit in 30 years?" is power, rich people, rich people not being alive in 30 years time and selfish, and rich people either disregarding or getting other people to believe their pseudoscience so they can make money and die before the concequences kick their ass. most non-rich people dont have enough power to change shit, or are so busy they cant be assed.

as for different brain layers and such, we dont typically think abt breathing etc, and just for fun im gonna rock ur shit: you are now breathing and blinking manually, and you can feel your tounge in your mouth. also you just lost the game. have fun! /lh

but more seriously, i wouldnt consider SI to be part of our "conscious" worldview, same as breathing, blinking, etc, so yeah we can rule that out when talking about "want to live".

so the question is: how "unnatural"/"irrational" is a human wanting death? considering how much of the population is depressed nowadays, either humanity is shit or its pretty damn natural.

and the answer is that im not sure, honestly. most people who are suicidal have a shit life and multiple mental illnesses, but youd kinda expect that to be the case, it wouldnt really be 'rational' for a billionare with a million close friends to kill themselves. at the same time, for people suffering from heartbreak/grief, if you just wait for them to process their grief, they can go from suicidal to Normal Person in the span of like... a month to several years. why would it be logical to kill yourself over one death that you know most people can -i wanna say "move on from" but that sounds rude so ill say- keep in their hearts but live with? and thats because its not rational, its emotional, and they emotionally feel like theyre not gonna make it without that person.

the overlap between "thats the mental illness(/emotion) talking" and "thats just Actual Rational Thinking talking in a shit suitation" has pretty high overlap, and its hard to tell whats what. to an outside observer (like someone whos never been suicidal and doesnt want people to die, aka a pro-lifer), theyre gonna see the forum as whirlpool of mental illness and suicide methods, because theres a lot of mental illness and suicide methods. theres also a lot of Actual Genuine Reasons why the mentally ill people wanna kill themselves, and a lotta that the pro-lifers either dont see, or disregard cause theyve never been there.

ill also shove in this point that if u commit murder, you're probably not the most sane person in the room. i would also say that you're reponsible for your actions and shouldve known what the concequences were gonna be, but like... its pretty hard to kill someone and get away with it, yaknow? couldnt you have like.... talked it out first??? eh, i dont think ill get people like that. apart from hannibal, he killed pedos after being abused as a kid. he can do whatever the fuck he likes, tbh.

ANYWAY because, in my opinion, suicidal thinking tends to be caused either by non-logical emotion, mental illness, or suitations that concidentally give u like 60 mental illnesses, its rlly fucking hard to tell how rational/natural they are. a lot of people who stop being suicidal have their suitations change, which takes away the rational reasoning for suicide, but they also usually go through therapy (or natural oils 6 months online course free, whatever), which takes away or lessens the mental component. so how much is the suitation vs the effect the suitation had on them is pretty hard to tell. IMO the mental component is probably stronger than the physical(/"rational") component, tho if you have a lot of mental illnesses affecting you isnt that a pretty rational reason to want to end it??? ehhhh, whatever. point is, even if the "rational" reason to want to die is gone, the "irrational" reason might remain. which is probably because our brains are a buggy patchwork of evolution, and thus it might be "natural"... lol.

as for my own reasons, its a long-ass melodramatic story. and this post is taking ages to type as-is. i cant really say how much of my suicidal ideation is random/intrusive thoughts vs normal thinking? i can say that my autistic ass tends to get obessed with one thing and not stop thinking about that thing, which right now happens to be SN vs IG/EB.... sigh....
my original, 12 y/o reason why i should die was, if i remember correctly, that i didnt think i would be sad if a family member died, so therefore i was a monster, and because everyone said i was an angel of a kid, past me would want current me to die. so thats uh... not really that rational.

my current reason is a mix of things, but i guess it boils down to "i don't like the way the world is, i dont think its gonna change on its own, and im too lazy to change it myself. i dont think ill be happy working 24/7 for the rest of my life, so instead, ill just kill myself so i dont have to." ....ehhh, im sure if thats the whole truth, though. im not lying, but a lotta my want for death is because... i want to die? and i have for years? and i cant really source half the reasons cause theyre dead and gone by now, but the want still remains, if that makes sense.

in conclusion something something suicide isnt rational but is probably kind of natural, but only because were buggy ass flesh machines, but also in the same way murderers are probably not sane but are still held accountable for their actions, depressed people probably have a good reason for wanting to die. mostly. excluding me bc im a lil freak who wants to die for the hell of it /lh

 

[Forever Sleep]

id agree with you on a lot of this! i watched an interesting video the other day talking about how humans probably have reduced instincts compared to other animals because, combined with how long it takes to raise a human child, it makes us very flexible since we learn from pur parents and so forth.

for a lot of your points on "humans wear clothes/use contraception", thats because we're a tool-using species. weve actually evolved to fit our own, man-made enviroment, which is why we're so soft and squishy! its pretty interesting, tbh.
choosing not to have kids is... honestly, my theory would be that since having too many animals compared to resources in that area, not having kids might be a way to population-control so that you dont end up fighting over resources.

most of "why would humans do x when its gonna rock our shit in 30 years?" is power, rich people, rich people not being alive in 30 years time and selfish, and rich people either disregarding or getting other people to believe their pseudoscience so they can make money and die before the concequences kick their ass. most non-rich people dont have enough power to change shit, or are so busy they cant be assed.

as for different brain layers and such, we dont typically think abt breathing etc, and just for fun im gonna rock ur shit: you are now breathing and blinking manually, and you can feel your tounge in your mouth. also you just lost the game. have fun! /lh

but more seriously, i wouldnt consider SI to be part of our "conscious" worldview, same as breathing, blinking, etc, so yeah we can rule that out when talking about "want to live".

so the question is: how "unnatural"/"irrational" is a human wanting death? considering how much of the population is depressed nowadays, either humanity is shit or its pretty damn natural.

and the answer is that im not sure, honestly. most people who are suicidal have a shit life and multiple mental illnesses, but youd kinda expect that to be the case, it wouldnt really be 'rational' for a billionare with a million close friends to kill themselves. at the same time, for people suffering from heartbreak/grief, if you just wait for them to process their grief, they can go from suicidal to Normal Person in the span of like... a month to several years. why would it be logical to kill yourself over one death that you know most people can -i wanna say "move on from" but that sounds rude so ill say- keep in their hearts but live with? and thats because its not rational, its emotional, and they emotionally feel like theyre not gonna make it without that person.

the overlap between "thats the mental illness(/emotion) talking" and "thats just Actual Rational Thinking talking in a shit suitation" has pretty high overlap, and its hard to tell whats what. to an outside observer (like someone whos never been suicidal and doesnt want people to die, aka a pro-lifer), theyre gonna see the forum as whirlpool of mental illness and suicide methods, because theres a lot of mental illness and suicide methods. theres also a lot of Actual Genuine Reasons why the mentally ill people wanna kill themselves, and a lotta that the pro-lifers either dont see, or disregard cause theyve never been there.

ill also shove in this point that if u commit murder, you're probably not the most sane person in the room. i would also say that you're reponsible for your actions and shouldve known what the concequences were gonna be, but like... its pretty hard to kill someone and get away with it, yaknow? couldnt you have like.... talked it out first??? eh, i dont think ill get people like that. apart from hannibal, he killed pedos after being abused as a kid. he can do whatever the fuck he likes, tbh.

ANYWAY because, in my opinion, suicidal thinking tends to be caused either by non-logical emotion, mental illness, or suitations that concidentally give u like 60 mental illnesses, its rlly fucking hard to tell how rational/natural they are. a lot of people who stop being suicidal have their suitations change, which takes away the rational reasoning for suicide, but they also usually go through therapy (or natural oils 6 months online course free, whatever), which takes away or lessens the mental component. so how much is the suitation vs the effect the suitation had on them is pretty hard to tell. IMO the mental component is probably stronger than the physical(/"rational") component, tho if you have a lot of mental illnesses affecting you isnt that a pretty rational reason to want to end it??? ehhhh, whatever. point is, even if the "rational" reason to want to die is gone, the "irrational" reason might remain. which is probably because our brains are a buggy patchwork of evolution, and thus it might be "natural"... lol.

as for my own reasons, its a long-ass melodramatic story. and this post is taking ages to type as-is. i cant really say how much of my suicidal ideation is random/intrusive thoughts vs normal thinking? i can say that my autistic ass tends to get obessed with one thing and not stop thinking about that thing, which right now happens to be SN vs IG/EB.... sigh....
my original, 12 y/o reason why i should die was, if i remember correctly, that i didnt think i would be sad if a family member died, so therefore i was a monster, and because everyone said i was an angel of a kid, past me would want current me to die. so thats uh... not really that rational.

my current reason is a mix of things, but i guess it boils down to "i don't like the way the world is, i dont think its gonna change on its own, and im too lazy to change it myself. i dont think ill be happy working 24/7 for the rest of my life, so instead, ill just kill myself so i dont have to." ....ehhh, im sure if thats the whole truth, though. im not lying, but a lotta my want for death is because... i want to die? and i have for years? and i cant really source half the reasons cause theyre dead and gone by now, but the want still remains, if that makes sense.

in conclusion something something suicide isnt rational but is probably kind of natural, but only because were buggy ass flesh machines, but also in the same way murderers are probably not sane but are still held accountable for their actions, depressed people probably have a good reason for wanting to die. mostly. excluding me bc im a lil freak who wants to die for the hell of it /lh

Thanks so much for this in-depth reply. Some really fantastic points. Very true- ideation can be very emotional and emotions tend to overwhelm rational thinking. Also- brilliant point about us being a tool using species- so- clothes etc. fit into that aspect.

Some of your reasons for wanting to CTB actually sound similar to mine- to save myself from a future I'm sure I'm going to hate. I agree, method researching is stressful. I hope you end up settling on one you feel the most comfortable with.

Thank you for all your responses- it's given me a lot to think about.

 

[TransilvanianHunger]

I think there's a belief that some people are simply not in a rational enough state of mind to be able to make authentic decisions for themselves. Especially when it comes to the wish to take your own life.

In a way, I think this is true. However, we over-correct and assume by default that certain decisions, like taking one's own life, would never be made by a rational person, and so anyone who even talks about it is seen as irrational and in need of saving from themselves.

I suppose the idea is twofold then- firstly that (if we even conceed that the person has a mental illness that) mentally ill people can't make rational decisions. How do you feel about this?

That's an uncomfortably broad generalisation. Is a person in the middle of a manic episode rational? I don't think so. Does that mean that they are never able to make rational decisions? Again, I don't think so. Unlike a broken bone, mental illness is—in most cases—not a uniform, generalised state, so you can't treat mentally ill people as if they were incapacitated 24/7.

Do you even believe you have a mental illness? If so- does it change how you think? Do you have say periods of time in which you feel your mental competency is diminished? If so- are you aware of it while you are experiencing it?

I am aware that the way I see, think about, and experience life is not what most would consider "normal." I was described—to my face, mind you—as "socially retarded" by one particularly kind person because I didn't fit the usual mould she was accustomed to dealing with. Beyond that, I don't have a diagnosis nor am I particularly interested in obtaining one. I do have periods of diminished mental capacity, and I am aware of them as they happen. I sometimes have trouble with even the most basic level of functioning. On the other hand, there are people around me who constantly tell me how brilliant and full of potential I am. I can't help but think they're comically biased.

Presumably- if you are (and it troubles you,) do you take steps to 'protect' yourself? Would you still be in an objective enough state of mind say to not access a site like this- if you felt it was increasing your ideation? (Presuming that you didn't want to act on it deep down.)

The one step I took to "protect" myself was seeking out an actual therapist, after years and years of being in a state of "whatever happens, happens." My interest in this site has little, if anything, to do with my own suicidal thoughts. I've gone through the scenario in my head, in minute detail, many times before I even knew this place existed. Being here is unlikely to have an impact on that, in either direction.

That seems to be a ridiculous criticism of this place- that it's some kind of death cult. Personally, I'd say we are by and large a group of VERY headstrong individuals. You have to be fairly headstrong to individually consider suicide I think- it is absolute antipathy to most of society. What about you though? Do you reckon you are the sort of person who is susceptible to cult thinking?

There was a rather well known study on cults done decades ago, where the researchers found themselves actually wanting to drink the proverbial Kool-Aid, and had to be yanked out against their will. If actual experts on the subject fell for it, I think it'd be absurdly arrogant of me to say that I'm not susceptible. At the same time, I'm used to engaging with ideas and points of view that I don't agree with, or outright condemn, simply because I believe it's good exercise for one's critical thinking skills, so I'd say I'm also not easily tricked by any old shite.

That brings me to the second point- authenticity. I think the 'normies' like to see suicidal ideation as an affliction. Something that has latched itself onto someone but can be removed- just like mental illness (supposedly.) That this way of thinking (should) have nothing to do with the authentic person.

How true is this for you? I suppose it COULD be true for some people. I think some people DO experience it as an unwelcome impulse.

I think that a fair number of people turn to suicidal ideation out of fear or desperation, when in reality they're simply going through a tough patch and, under more auspicious circumstances, they would love to carry on living. That's why I think that wait lists for assisted death programmes are a good idea, for example. Adversity will blur your vision and make you consider taking extreme, permanent measures in response to—in the grand scheme of things—rather pedestrian problems.

Still, my ideation has always felt authentically a part of my thinking. A natural response- perhaps an extreme one but that's for me to judge surely? If I don't see the benefits of life outweighing the suffering- what does it matter how someone else thinks my life SHOULD feel like?

Not much to say here. I think people can rationally be in favour of ending their own lives, even if they don't lead the most miserable of existences. Philosophically speaking, I share the view that life is, in aggregate, more of a pain in the ass. Like Schopenhauer wrote, "life is a business that does not cover the costs." I feel like I'm well within my rights to think that, and act in consequence if I feel like it.

(Turns out I did have something to say about that bit.)

In any case- that still doesn't seem like a good argument to me against someone wanting to act on their impulses. EVEN IF their ideation is attributed to illness- by them as well as medical professionals- what good does that do if they can't be cured?!! They may agree that it isn't the real 'them' having these thoughts- but if they are still being tormented by them- how does that help?!!

I think there is an important distinction to be made between impulsive suicidality and people who have some chronic condition that makes life unbearable. It's a bit of an overplayed meme, but there are people who attempt suicide, fail, and are happy they did. Of course, to pretend that this would be the case with everyone is incredibly stupid, but that doesn't negate the fact that some people out there are suicidal out of pure desperation. Is it a net positive or a negative to allow them to off themselves if, in different circumstances, they would've carried on living happily?

I'm not saying my (presumably) relatively mild depression COULDN'T be reversed. I'm not saying I have become the ideal version of my potential. I certainly haven't. Like most people here- life has bashed me about and I've developed some unhealthy coping mechanisms that ironically- haven't helped me at all long term. Still- that's life. To get me back on track would doubtlessly need a lot of therapy and meds maybe. Are therapy and drugs good for 'vulnerable' people? Not at all in some cases here!

I am fairly sceptical of medication in some cases simply because our understanding of the biochemistry underlying some mental illnesses is in its absolute infancy. The amount of stuff we know about the human mind is dwarfed by the things we don't know. Medication can help some people, but it's far from an exact science at this point. And, to be honest, I can't blame the people who get tired of trying different dosages and prescriptions.

Therapy has also been misused. It works for some people in some cases. It's worth trying, but there are problems that no amount of talking to the most empathetic and caring therapist will fix. A lot of the anti-therapy sentiment I see here seems to be a result of human failure—a shite therapist—rather than therapy itself, but that discourages people from giving it another go anyway. Therapy can be surprisingly effective, but that requires a capable human on the other side, willing to engage with you as a fellow human and not as some broken appliance. Sadly, we have a long bloody way to go when it comes to providing mental health care to people.

- in ALL cases- or- is it at least in part a reaction to a difficult life? Can someone feel authentically suicidal, or is it some affliction- just like a disease?

I've rambled on long enough, so I'll be brief here: yes, I believe one can be rationally suicidal. I don't expect the normie crowd to agree with that position, but that's where I stand right now.

 

[Forever Sleep]

In a way, I think this is true. However, we over-correct and assume by default that certain decisions, like taking one's own life, would never be made by a rational person, and so anyone who even talks about it is seen as irrational and in need of saving from themselves.


That's an uncomfortably broad generalisation. Is a person in the middle of a manic episode rational? I don't think so. Does that mean that they are never able to make rational decisions? Again, I don't think so. Unlike a broken bone, mental illness is—in most cases—not a uniform, generalised state, so you can't treat mentally ill people as if they were incapacitated 24/7.


I am aware that the way I see, think about, and experience life is not what most would consider "normal." I was described—to my face, mind you—as "socially retarded" by one particularly kind person because I didn't fit the usual mould she was accustomed to dealing with. Beyond that, I don't have a diagnosis nor am I particularly interested in obtaining one. I do have periods of diminished mental capacity, and I am aware of them as they happen. I sometimes have trouble with even the most basic level of functioning. On the other hand, there are people around me who constantly tell me how brilliant and full of potential I am. I can't help but think they're comically biased.


The one step I took to "protect" myself was seeking out an actual therapist, after years and years of being in a state of "whatever happens, happens." My interest in this site has little, if anything, to do with my own suicidal thoughts. I've gone through the scenario in my head, in minute detail, many times before I even knew this place existed. Being here is unlikely to have an impact on that, in either direction.


There was a rather well known study on cults done decades ago, where the researchers found themselves actually wanting to drink the proverbial Kool-Aid, and had to be yanked out against their will. If actual experts on the subject fell for it, I think it'd be absurdly arrogant of me to say that I'm not susceptible. At the same time, I'm used to engaging with ideas and points of view that I don't agree with, or outright condemn, simply because I believe it's good exercise for one's critical thinking skills, so I'd say I'm also not easily tricked by any old shite.


I think that a fair number of people turn to suicidal ideation out of fear or desperation, when in reality they're simply going through a tough patch and, under more auspicious circumstances, they would love to carry on living. That's why I think that wait lists for assisted death programmes are a good idea, for example. Adversity will blur your vision and make you consider taking extreme, permanent measures in response to—in the grand scheme of things—rather pedestrian problems.


Not much to say here. I think people can rationally be in favour of ending their own lives, even if they don't lead the most miserable of existences. Philosophically speaking, I share the view that life is, in aggregate, more of a pain in the ass. Like Schopenhauer wrote, "life is a business that does not cover the costs." I feel like I'm well within my rights to think that, and act in consequence if I feel like it.

(Turns out I did have something to say about that bit.)


I think there is an important distinction to be made between impulsive suicidality and people who have some chronic condition that makes life unbearable. It's a bit of an overplayed meme, but there are people who attempt suicide, fail, and are happy they did. Of course, to pretend that this would be the case with everyone is incredibly stupid, but that doesn't negate the fact that some people out there are suicidal out of pure desperation. Is it a net positive or a negative to allow them to off themselves if, in different circumstances, they would've carried on living happily?


I am fairly sceptical of medication in some cases simply because our understanding of the biochemistry underlying some mental illnesses is in its absolute infancy. The amount of stuff we know about the human mind is dwarfed by the things we don't know. Medication can help some people, but it's far from an exact science at this point. And, to be honest, I can't blame the people who get tired of trying different dosages and prescriptions.

Therapy has also been misused. It works for some people in some cases. It's worth trying, but there are problems that no amount of talking to the most empathetic and caring therapist will fix. A lot of the anti-therapy sentiment I see here seems to be a result of human failure—a shite therapist—rather than therapy itself, but that discourages people from giving it another go anyway. Therapy can be surprisingly effective, but that requires a capable human on the other side, willing to engage with you as a fellow human and not as some broken appliance. Sadly, we have a long bloody way to go when it comes to providing mental health care to people.


I've rambled on long enough, so I'll be brief here: yes, I believe one can be rationally suicidal. I don't expect the normie crowd to agree with that position, but that's where I stand right now.

'Life is a business that does not cover the cost.' That Schopenhauer quote is amazing! Thank you- I've never heard that one. I always loved the lyric in the Bowie song (Bring me the disco king) 'Life wasn't worth the balance.' Same sort of thing.

Yes- I absolutely agree with you- a waiting term for assisted suicide is a very good idea- to try and dissuade impulsive actions. I agree that suicide CAN be an overly emotional and impulsive act. I'm sure it can be induced by mental illness also- even as a response just to get away from it. Still, I suppose I would welcome it if there were more studies in people that had only mild mental illness- really whether an averagely functioning brain could come up with the want to suicide.

 

[TransilvanianHunger]

'Life wasn't worth the balance.'

"or the crumpled paper it was written on..." Impeccable taste in music. I can recommend On the Suffering of the World, a collection of essays by Schopenhauer dealing with these issues, if you're philosophically inclined. Also, Magnus Vinding's Suffering-Focused Ethics if you'd like a more constructive viewpoint.

I suppose I would welcome it if there were more studies in people that had only mild mental illness- really whether an averagely functioning brain could come up with the want to suicide.

Honestly, I find this a rather intriguing avenue of research. Suicidality in general, but this bit in particular. I might need to pivot my career yet again.

 

[LastFlowers]

we have two life goals: fuck and live. the sex part is less important now that theres like 8 billion humans, but the "live" part is still the base of both animals and plants. to not want to live is basically saying fuck you to like, several billion years of evolution.

This is a weak argument don't you think?
If you can toss the sex part out the window because an abundance of humans then surely you've already set off into a slippery slope of a stance.
Any part of "living" can also fall to the wayside for any number of reasons.

Don't a lot, if not most things in modern society say "fuck you" to several billion years of evolution?
Doesn't evolution itself say "fuck you" to its own history, the bygone days?
Is that not the point of evolution itself?
Because I doubt it's stopping here.

The earth on its own has fucked itself over several times, and even more so with a little help from outside the atmosphere and our bipedal brethren.
Nature is just plain messy too.
We think it's so refined because humans love to focus more on what they consider beautiful and worthy of admiration.
There is some major tunnel vision at play here.

All this makes me think of the line "God doesn't make mistakes."
But oh so many mistakes are made.
And to take it a step further, who is to say what we consider "correct" now is not actually erroneous?

to link back to my main point, wanting to die means that a fair bits wrong in your brain chemistry. your emotions, life suitation, whatever. its gotta be at least a lil fucked up. and most (if not all) people here would probably be able to spout how theyve had depression for 90 million years or their wife and kids didnt exist and theyre a virgin and 80 or whatever.

But why? You're just saying this.
You're not backing it up with any reasoning besides it simply must be.

Certainly there are life situations that warrant an expedited death, right?

Emotions themselves are often the inevitable response to all types of stimuli.
Or are we just robots?
Apparently that's the expectation in order to be considered a logical human being, which is pretty absurd considering it denies an inexorable component of being human.

So how is something "wrong" with one's emotions, or one's brain chemistry?
If it's all a result of simply interacting with the world, other people, anything at all..living, existing.

When you think about it, the endless cycle of humans or life at all is pretty pointless, what is the end goal here?
And for whom?
And at what cost?

What exactly is sensible about continually spinning a wheel? Just for the sake of it.
Especially with all the harm and sacrifice.


I'll be honest, I have no idea what that last sentence is supposed to mean.
(It's true that you warned us you would be hard to follow. But you really weren't kidding.
If my own responses don't make sense then it's probably due in part to that, I'm sorry.)

as such, most suicidal people arent really "rational" in their want for death, because its not how a, for lack of a better term, "correctly operating human"

Since when is the term "rational" inextricable from appropriate? And by whose judgement is any course of action "correct"?

Unfortunately I think people just make up their own definitions these days, I swear.
(Just look at how exhaustively we have to use quotations!)

If an individual or a society says "I don't like that", suddenly it's "irrational".
Just because it doesn't make sense in the context of someone else's life, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense in the context of our own.

At a certain point, it's downright unreasonable to continue living when all it brings is unfettered or unmitigated suffering.

Call me insane for not wanting to continue on under my circumstances and I'd have a bone to pick with you.
Call me insane for being here as long as I have and you may have a point.

If you consider your odds, realize a permanent lack of purpose of self or on a greater scale, a diminutive or nonexistent opportunity for fulfillment..then perhaps dousing the candle is the sensible next step.

. my lifes not that bad man. i can take some other steps first, sheesh

Isn't this just a case of speaking for yourself and not others then?

to be honest, i think this site acts a deterrent if anything. members get so looped up in perfecting their plan and making sure they die For Reals that suddenly its 5 years later

Well when you put it that way, it just sounds even more depressing, like they're unknowingly lingering in some god awful liminal space that they can't escape from in any direction.
Would you call that rational living?
(And I'm referring to the same mindset that also exists outside of this place too.)

and thats because its not rational, its emotional, and they emotionally feel like theyre not gonna make it without that person.

Emotions can be rational. Emotions can even be the result of rationally figuring how you might fare.

the overlap between "thats the mental illness(/emotion) talking" and "thats just Actual Rational Thinking talking in a shit suitation" has pretty high overlap, and its hard to tell whats what

Right, but why are you conflating "mental illness" with emotions?

Jesus, the DSM has done wonders to this society's sense of damn near everything.
Now even emotions themselves are pathologized.

Actual Genuine Reasons why the mentally ill people wanna kill themselves, and a lotta that the pro-lifers either dont see, or disregard cause theyve never been there.

But according to the current mental health paradigm, a diagnosis of "mental illness" does not necessitate one being suicidal.
And really, most everyone could walk into a psych's office and be diagnosed with something.
So maybe they have been there.
Maybe they are still there.
But it depends if you're talking about being "mentally ill" or being suicidal, they're not one in the same.

That said, I don't subscribe to a lot of that nonsense and the appropriation of typical medical terminology the mental health fields employed in order to be taken seriously and aquire such unearned authority over people as well as reskinning our common language.
Have you ever done research into how these "diagnoses" are "discovered"?
It's an absolute joke.
That is not to take away a set of circumstances and the suffering said circumstances bring, but the labeling has gone mad and is highly arbitrary from one professional to another, or one patient to another.

ill also shove in this point that if u commit murder, you're probably not the most sane person in the room.

Why?

i would also say that you're reponsible for your actions and shouldve known what the concequences were gonna be, but like... its pretty hard to kill someone and get away with it, yaknow? couldnt you have like.... talked it out first???

Right, because there are usually laws against it.


But what if there weren't?

eh, i dont think ill get people like that. apart from hannibal, he killed pedos after being abused as a kid. he can do whatever the fuck he likes, tbh.

So you admit there are exceptions…that abstaining from an action due to the consequences of breaking a socially constructed rule (in order to ensure some amount of civility) is not necessarily the equivalent of-or wholly due to-being rational (in the emotionless sense).
It's ultimately due to fear.
An emotion.

And perhaps ignoring the law and killing someone anyways, is due to anger or overwhelming despair at not being able to exact revenge.
Emotions.

You really can't get around 'em.