Discussion Vexatious posts have become a thing round here ...

[SamTam33]

Does the bad cancel all the good? Does the good cancel all the bad? IDK. It's just opinions.

You can call it opinions if you like but a lot of the things I referenced (all of them) are facts.

People are struggling, en masse. Life is difficult. You work. Retire. Then die.

And you suffer in the process. And if you by some miracle, you don't? Then you are the exception. Not the norm.

 

[freedompass]

I've wanted to do this for awhile (have someone make a list of good things compared to bad things).

If anyone wants to take me up on that, I'd be down. I'll supply the bad if they supply the good.

I'd bet everything that the bad will outweigh the good.

Edit: I've tried to do it myself but I can't. If I list "flowers" then I'm just going to offset it with "bee stings" LMAO
---
One more thing (as you can probably tell, I'm obsessed with this line of thinking).

But whatever positive things people list, the negative things will occur more frequently.

So if someone says "a baby's laugh." Babies cry more often than they laugh.

If someone says "a sunset." You're going to be in exponentially more traffic jams than you are going to witness sunsets.

If you say "winning on a lottery scratch off ticket," the amount you pay in sales taxes on everything else is going to obliterate your scratch off winnings.

There's no objective way to argue in favor of life as we know it. It's nice to fantasize about. But when you get down to the nitty gritty - life is a grind. Existing is a chore.

You are not making a groundbreaking observation here. Have you heard of efilism? An actual philosophy that argues life is a net negative. Antinatalism posits that procreation is inherently risky and should be avoided as the unborn will never suffer. I am sympathetic to both viewpoints but don't entirely subscribe to either. I tend toward pessimism though.

Yes I would prefer not to have been born as that would remove the predicament of how to die. But it is not for me to try to invalidate others' happiness, whether genuine or not.

You seem to want to prove you are objectively right and they are wrong. What if there was a way to prove it? Would that give you the right to line them all up and shoot them 'for their own good'?

These things are personal and subjective. How we perceive the meaning of our lives and life in general can evolve from one day to the next. Even at my lowest ebb I would never presume to generalise my own problems to everyone else. Kind of a 'respecting personal boundaries' issue as well as a common sense one.

 

[SamTam33]

You are not making a groundbreaking observation here. Have you heard of efilism? An actual philosophy that argues life is a net negative. Antinatalism posits that procreation is inherently risky and should be avoided as the unborn will never suffer. I am sympathetic to both viewpoints but don't entirely subscribe to either. I tend toward pessimism though.

Yes I would prefer not to have been born as that would remove the predicament of how to die. But it is not for me to try to invalidate others' happiness, whether genuine or not.

You seem to want to prove you are objectively right and they are wrong. What if there was a way to prove it? Would that give you the right to line them all up and shoot them 'for their own good'?

These things are personal and subjective. How we perceive the meaning of our lives and life in general can evolve from one day to the next. Even at my lowest ebb I would never presume to generalise my own problems to everyone else. Kind of a 'respecting personal boundaries' issue as well as a common sense one.

But we can make general observations about life. And it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's true or false.

And if we're honest...legitimately honest... It's fucked up.

I don't care about your specific circumstances. I'm not talking about YOU. It's not about you. It's not about me.

I'm making observations about the collective.

 

[freedompass]

But we can make general observations about life. And it's not a matter of right or wrong. It's true or false.

And if we're honest...legitimately honest... It's fucked up.

I don't care about your specific circumstances. I'm not talking about YOU. It's not about you. It's not about me.

I'm making observations about the collective.

Right. So if we don't agree it's because we're dishonest or lying.

You have not answered my legitimate question. Even if you could 'prove' your rightness, what would that achieve?

You sound very immature, rude, and arrogant as well as extremely naive and not that smart. Makes sense that you would defend FC.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I think about this a lot. And I genuinely believe that if we could remove our personal experience and beliefs from the equation - most everyone should be able to objectively say that life is pointless and the scale is severely tilted towards the suffering side of things.

Just look at the work week in the US: five days working vs two for the weekend.

Look at the number of holidays compared to the number of regular days.

Think of your friends who experience severe hardship, yet they aren't remotely suicidal.

Just because they aren't suicidal doesn't mean their life is worth living.

Doctors and nurses are overworked and overwhelmed because of all the sick people.

Police departments are stretched thin because of all the people in some form of distress who call them.

What's my point?

People don't have to actively subscribe to the notion that life is shit for it to be true.

They can say life is beautiful or the pain is worth it (or whatever they say). But if we could step back and observe their life from an objective, completely neutral POV - their words would not line up with their experience.

Their job is stressing them out. Their kids are zapping all their energy. Their bills are never-ending. They can't regulate their blood pressure. Their car keeps breaking down. Their spouse can't get employment.

How many people call us with good news vs the ones who call with problems?

That's how I've always interpreted FC's posts. She's posting observations about life at a macro level. Those observations are indisputable.

We get old. We develop health problems. We work to give all our money away to other people. Loved ones betray us. Wildfires, hurricanes, tornadoes, famine, rape, incest, abuse, lies, blackmail, politicians, AIDS, poverty, war, adultery. Homelessness, racism, misogyny, torture, cancer, crack babies.

Like... anyone trying to make a case that a world filled with those things is a world worth living in... That it's generally beautiful... They're batshit crazy.

Honestly- I find it hard to disagree or argue with you because I myself see more bad than good to life. I do still struggle with the notion that this should be the truth for ALL life though.

So- let's go with your hypothesis- life is objectively more bad than good. All life is meaningless and full of suffering. So- EVERYONE ought to come to this conclusion sooner or later right? To the extent that the best thing to do would be to not reproduce and exit as soon as possible. So- why don't more people choose this? Are we somehow more clever than them? Are they stupid or utterly delluded or running purely on instinct? Bear in mind they are in the majority group. Of course- who's to say this won't happen more in the future if things just get worse...

Also- does mental illness ever contribute to someone feeling suicidal? If feeling utterly miserable is the natural response to living in a world like this- then it isn't illness at all. We are only fed medication and therapy to get us to a stage where we might be remotely profitable to society again.

I guess a part of me does actually believe this. That said- I'm not entirely convinced. I think mental illness is real. Whether it is a reaction to the world we live in or not, I think we can become trapped in a negative cycle of thinking that changes how we perceive and cope with everything- in which case- our thinking has indeed become skewed.

I'm not trying to say we're all crazy but I have to look at my own thinking in comparison to other people's- who- as you perceptively said- are struggling with life just the same. Why then- do I want to kill myself but they find the idea horrific? Do you suppose they are so utterly controlled by their natural instinct to survive and social/religious expectations? These people certainly aren't stupid...

IF the majority of people do indeed see their lives like this- then surely- the world would already look very different. Wouldn't there already be restrictions or at least firmer guidelines around having children and ready access to assisted euthanasia with little to no limitations?

Or- are the ruling classes (the ones that call the shots on our laws- both social and religious) actually the only ones that are 'happy' while the rest of us are brainwashed into accepting our suffering? In which case- are they really so different? They have money of course but they are not immune to the other things we struggle with. Do you suppose the rich and powerful never get depressed?

I do understand where you and FC are coming from and from my own perspective, I agree with you. That said, I still don't see it as a universal truth. If you were truly to take away subjective feelings and annalyse something objectively- it is just something that happens or happened. It IS our subjectivity/ moral judgement that decides whether that was a good or bad thing.

A pack of lions devouring a buffalo alive is going to look horrific and cruel. It was certainly bad for the buffalo but good for the lions. Do you suppose the buffalo is thinking how unfair life is as it happens? From what I've seen, mercifully shock sometimes takes hold and SOMETIMES their distress seems to ease. Again though- it's subjectivity that decides this was cruel.

I wouldn't actually argue with you that life IS cruel from a subjective point of view. I would however say that perception is everything- especially when it comes to the human race. How we perceive the world defines to a larger extent how we experience it. While I'm deadset on seeing everything pessimistically and I don't much enjoy having that challenged, I do respect that some people are more optimistic and I can only envy and be happy for them.

 

[SamTam33]

...So- let's go with your hypothesis- life is objectively more bad than good. All life is meaningless and full of suffering. So- EVERYONE ought to come to this conclusion sooner or later right? To the extent that the best thing to do would be to not reproduce and exit as soon as possible. So- why don't more people choose this? Are we somehow more clever than them? Are they stupid or utterly delluded or running purely on instinct? Bear in mind they are in the majority group. Of course- who's to say this won't happen more in the future if things just get worse...

Also- does mental illness ever contribute to someone feeling suicidal...

Ironically enough I think it was you that gave me some insight into this question. I'm going to butcher it badly, but I believe you mentioned how procreation is instinctual [as opposed to deliberate like suicide]. That literally answered decades worth of wondering on my part as to why people have babies.

To answer all the other questions... I don't know how to word it tactfully, but I think people in general are dumb. They like to be led, told what to do, etc. That's why religion is such a successful industry. It's why women take their husband's name. It's why coworkers don't complain about unreasonable directives during meetings, but sit silently and nod.

We're taught that life is a gift and most people believe what they're taught.

Anyway, I don't think most people are objectively contemplating their existence, whether life is worth it, etc. They're not weighing the pros vs cons like we do. They just... exist.

They perform a mix of instinctual things (procreate) and society-induced activities (get married, slave away at a job) without much consideration as to WHY.

And if asked to justify or explain their actions, they can't. They just become flustered and indignant that you would even inquire about such a thing.

Someone had a thread asking if suicidal people were mentally ill and I mused that people who have relatively good lives and still want to ctb were the mentally ill ones. Everyone else had normal reactions to their adverse circumstances. But that's just speculation.

I don't think we're necessarily crazy because we don't subscribe to the "normal" way of thinking. Some people just buck the system in one way or another.

We're deviants, is all.

 

[freedompass]

We're deviants, is all.

Speak for yourself

Someone had a thread asking if suicidal people were mentally ill and I mused that people who have relatively good lives and still want to ctb were the mentally ill ones. Everyone else had normal reactions to their adverse circumstances

Judgmental, much? How do you define 'relatively good'?

 

[SamTam33]

Speak for yourself

Judgmental, much? How do you define 'relatively good'?

You should pretend like you are one of the generally dumb people I mentioned and ignore my posts. Not everything is meant for everybody.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Ironically enough I think it was you that gave me some insight into this question. I'm going to butcher it badly, but I believe you mentioned how procreation is instinctual [as opposed to deliberate like suicide]. That literally answered decades worth of wondering on my part as to why people have babies.

To answer all the other questions... I don't know how to word it tactfully, but I think people in general are dumb. They like to be led, told what to do, etc. That's why religion is such a successful industry. It's why women take their husband's name. It's why coworkers don't complain about unreasonable directives during meetings, but sit silently and nod.

We're taught that life is a gift and most people believe what they're taught.

Anyway, I don't think most people are objectively contemplating their existence, whether life is worth it, etc. They're not weighing the pros vs cons like we do. They just... exist.

They perform a mix of instinctual things (procreate) and society-induced activities (get married, slave away at a job) without much consideration as to WHY.

And if asked to justify or explain their actions, they can't. They just become flustered and indignant that you would even inquire about such a thing.

Someone had a thread asking if suicidal people were mentally ill and I mused that people who have relatively good lives and still want to ctb were the mentally ill ones. Everyone else had normal reactions to their adverse circumstances. But that's just speculation.

I don't think we're necessarily crazy because we don't subscribe to the "normal" way of thinking. Some people just buck the system in one way or another.

We're deviants, is all.

Again, I do sympathise with a lot of what you are saying.

The main issue I have is claiming life is OBJECTIVELY bad. My argument is- there is no such thing as objectively good or objectively bad. It is our SUBJECTIVE thinking that decides this.

Quick Google search (from UCL Discovery):

There is no such thing as the objectively good, the objectively bad, there are only the diverse preferences of individuals. Different people hold different things to be good and bad, and that is all there is to it; one cannot say that some are correct, and others incorrect in what they judge to be of value.

Subjective thinking is unique to the individual. Again- I think it's fine to question WHY people think the way they do but I don't think it's possible to say they are 'wrong' because it is an opinion that doesn't have a right or a wrong. Especially when it comes to them 'valuing' their life.

So for example- someone is suffering from an illness but they are hanging on for their family members because they love them. Do you really think you could dissuade them from clinging to the people they love by telling them how meaningless it all is? Do you actually think you could convince anyone that found some meaning to carry on to abandon it?

I definitely think we can and should question why we think like we do. So- sure- from a SUBJECTIVE point of view- insult away. Sheeple are driven by instincts, religion, society to conform and not question. I think it's ABSOLUTELY fine and right to wonder why more people don't hate their lives. Still- I don't think you can force them to be miserable any more than they can force us to be happy. Their experience of life is unique to them just as much as ours is to us. We can both look as one another in bewilderment but I doubt we can ever make the other truly understand.

Most importantly though- I don't think you can claim that a subjective opinion is in fact an objective one. The phrasing matters because an objective opinion certainly does have a right and a wrong, whereas a subjective one is more open to interpretation by the individual. While they can be questioned, I think we also have to respect that a person's beliefs about the value of their life are unique. We don't much enjoy being told that our thinking is unhinged- why would they?

 

[SamTam33]

Again, I do sympathise with a lot of what you are saying.

The main issue I have is claiming life is OBJECTIVELY bad. My argument is- there is no such thing as objectively good or objectively bad. It is our SUBJECTIVE thinking that decides this.

Quick Google search (from UCL Discovery):

There is no such thing as the objectively good, the objectively bad, there are only the diverse preferences of individuals. Different people hold different things to be good and bad, and that is all there is to it; one cannot say that some are correct, and others incorrect in what they judge to be of value.

Subjective thinking is unique to the individual. Again- I think it's fine to question WHY people think the way they do but I don't think it's possible to say they are 'wrong' because it is an opinion that doesn't have a right or a wrong. Especially when it comes to them 'valuing' their life.

So for example- someone is suffering from an illness but they are hanging on for their family members because they love them. Do you really think you could dissuade them from clinging to the people they love by telling them how meaningless it all is? Do you actually think you could convince anyone that found some meaning to carry on to abandon it?

I definitely think we can and should question why we think like we do. So- sure- from a SUBJECTIVE point of view- insult away. Sheeple are driven by instincts, religion, society to conform and not question. I think it's ABSOLUTELY fine and right to wonder why more people don't hate their lives. Still- I don't think you can force them to be miserable any more than they can force us to be happy. Their experience of life is unique to them just as much as ours is to us. We can both look as one another in bewilderment but I doubt we can ever make the other truly understand.

Most importantly though- I don't think you can claim that a subjective opinion is in fact an objective one. The phrasing matters because an objective opinion certainly does have a right and a wrong, whereas a subjective one is more open to interpretation by the individual. While they can be questioned, I think we also have to respect that a person's beliefs about the value of their life are unique. We don't much enjoy being told that our thinking is unhinged- why would they?

I don't subscribe to right or wrong either. I prefer to frame it as true or false.

And no, I don't think it's possible to dissuade people from their firmly held beliefs.

But beliefs don't correlate to truth. At one point people believed the earth was flat (some still do).

I guess my point is that the statement 'life is filled with suffering' is not a belief. It's a fact.

Not every life. But in general, it is.

Do we not have to pay taxes? (I just found out that UK citizens were paying taxes to fund the abolition of slavery until 2015!)

Do we not all get sick?

Do we not give the majority of our paychecks away?

Those aren't opinions.

Are babies not being violated?

Are people not being trafficked?

Those aren't subjective statements.

I just don't see how a rational individual can consider all those things AND view life as inherently good.

I understand that they do. But it's nonsensical.

 

[freedompass]

Again, I do sympathise with a lot of what you are saying.

The main issue I have is claiming life is OBJECTIVELY bad. My argument is- there is no such thing as objectively good or objectively bad. It is our SUBJECTIVE thinking that decides this.

Quick Google search (from UCL Discovery):

There is no such thing as the objectively good, the objectively bad, there are only the diverse preferences of individuals. Different people hold different things to be good and bad, and that is all there is to it; one cannot say that some are correct, and others incorrect in what they judge to be of value.

Subjective thinking is unique to the individual. Again- I think it's fine to question WHY people think the way they do but I don't think it's possible to say they are 'wrong' because it is an opinion that doesn't have a right or a wrong. Especially when it comes to them 'valuing' their life.

So for example- someone is suffering from an illness but they are hanging on for their family members because they love them. Do you really think you could dissuade them from clinging to the people they love by telling them how meaningless it all is? Do you actually think you could convince anyone that found some meaning to carry on to abandon it?

I definitely think we can and should question why we think like we do. So- sure- from a SUBJECTIVE point of view- insult away. Sheeple are driven by instincts, religion, society to conform and not question. I think it's ABSOLUTELY fine and right to wonder why more people don't hate their lives. Still- I don't think you can force them to be miserable any more than they can force us to be happy. Their experience of life is unique to them just as much as ours is to us. We can both look as one another in bewilderment but I doubt we can ever make the other truly understand.

Most importantly though- I don't think you can claim that a subjective opinion is in fact an objective one. The phrasing matters because an objective opinion certainly does have a right and a wrong, whereas a subjective one is more open to interpretation by the individual. While they can be questioned, I think we also have to respect that a person's beliefs about the value of their life are unique. We don't much enjoy being told that our thinking is unhinged- why would they?

Thank you for playing 'nice cop'. When you say 'insult away' though…are you endorsing members' right to invalidate and name call other members for respectfully disagreeing with what they say? For the sake of clarity…

The last sentence should not need to be spelled out - yet apparently it does.

 

[SamTam33]

Thank you for playing 'nice cop'. When you say 'insult away' though…are you endorsing members' right to invalidate and name call other members for respectfully disagreeing with what they say? For the sake of clarity…

The last sentence should not need to be spelled out - yet apparently it does.

I'm sending you a virtual hug because something tells me you really need one right now. Not even joking.

This is what I mean about the state of mind of people who hang out on this board. This is not what "happIERness" looks like.

 

[freedompass]

You should pretend like you are one of the generally dumb people I mentioned and ignore my posts. Not everything is meant for everybody.

Why would I ignore you. Watching you unravel is entertaining and passes the time.

I'm sending you a virtual hug because something tells me you really need one right now. Not even joking.

This is what I mean about the state of mind of people who hang out on this board. This is not what "happIERness" looks like.

Save your passive aggressive hugs for someone who needs or wants them. I'll pass.

 

[SamTam33]

Why would I ignore you. Watching you unravel is entertaining and passes the time.

Save your passive aggressive hugs for someone who needs or wants them. I'll pass

It was just a suggestion.

I was being sincere about the virtual hug. People who are happIER don't do this. Or they shouldn't. Who knows.

Let's face it: all of us are screwed up. It's like addicts being able to spot other addicts.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Thank you for playing 'nice cop'. When you say 'insult away' though…are you endorsing members' right to invalidate and name call other members for respectfully disagreeing with what they say? For the sake of clarity…

The last sentence should not need to be spelled out - yet apparently it does.

I don't need 'thanks' (but thank you for the appreciation.) I'm engaging in a debate out of free choice and because I enjoy these kinds of discussions. They help me to work out how I feel about stuff. 'Good cop' sugar coating is maybe my style!

No- for clarity- I am in no way endorsing any members 'right' to insult one another! I was trying to put across the idea that it is fine to question WHY we (and especially the 'normies') think like we do. Are we so influenced by instinct, social and religious norms? Are we so distrated that we are delluded into not seeing the truth of our situations? The 'insult' I was refering to was this idea of 'sheeple.' I don't think it's insulting to wonder HOW people get through their seemingly awful lives optimistically. That said- I think their experiences and subjective opinions ought to be given the same amount of respect that we would like.

I take your point though. I probably should have chosen my words better and avoided the word 'insult.'

Personally, I enjoy discussions like this. I enjoy differences of opinion and a good debate. Even if it gets to a point where we all have to agree to differ.

I don't subscribe to right or wrong either. I prefer to frame it as true or false.

And no, I don't think it's possible to dissuade people from their firmly held beliefs.

But beliefs don't correlate to truth. At one point people believed the earth was flat (some still do).

I guess my point is that the statement 'life is filled with suffering' is not a belief. It's a fact.

Not every life. But in general, it is.

Do we not have to pay taxes? (I just found out that UK citizens were paying taxes to fund the abolition of slavery until 2015!)

Do we not all get sick?

Do we not give the majority of our paychecks away?

Those aren't opinions.

Are babies not being violated?

Are people not being trafficked?

Those aren't subjective statements.

I just don't see how a rational individual can consider all those things AND view life as inherently good.

I understand that they do. But it's nonsensical.

Again, lots of points I absolutely agree with.

It's just still this idea of fact for everyone though... We've proved that the earth isn't flat. How would you go about proving that everyone's life was jam packed with suffering from beginning to end?

While I know this relates mainly to the religious folk amoung us- suffering sometimes seems like some (sadistic) teaching tool. Who's to say all this bad shit we endure in this life isn't rewarded in the next? (Like I say- a religious take on it- not necessarily mine...)

Life isn't as simple as true or false. Not even good or bad come to that. Good things sometimes weirdly come from bad experiences. I don't think it's fair to completely invalidate someone's own life experience- no matter what they feel. Question it- certainly but tell them they are utterly mistaken seems harsh.

I completely agree that it's bewildering to us that people see value in life but I can't bring myself to insist that they shouldn't. Still- I do absolutely understand where you are coming from. A huge part of me in fact agrees with you but it's the part of me that thinks we shouldn't superimpose our beliefs on everyone else that is reluctant to say that ALL life ought to be experienced as meaningless and an utter atrocity. Each to their own.

 

[freedompass]

I don't need 'thanks' (but thank you for the appreciation.) I'm engaging in a debate out of free choice and because I enjoy these kinds of discussions. They help me to work out how I feel about stuff. 'Good cop' sugar coating is maybe my style!

No- for clarity- I am in no way endorsing any members 'right' to insult one another! I was trying to put across the idea that it is fine to question WHY we (and especially the 'normies') think like we do. Are we so influenced by instinct, social and religious norms? Are we so distrated that we are delluded into not seeing the truth of our situations? The 'insult' I was refering to was this idea of 'sheeple.' I don't think it's insulting to wonder HOW people get through their seemingly awful lives optimistically. That said- I think their experiences and subjective opinions ought to be given the same amount of respect that we would like.

I take your point though. I probably should have chosen my words better and avoided the word 'insult.'

Personally, I enjoy discussions like this. I enjoy differences of opinion and a good debate. Even if it gets to a point where we all have to agree to differ.

I like debate and discussion too. But there is gonna be a significant road block to achieving that when an individual member insists that they are 'objectively' right and that anyone who disagrees is de facto delusional/crazy/a troll/prolife and so on. It's not how mature people operate and there are no special cases or exceptions to that rule. It's not acceptable. Period.

Is that my subjective opinion? No it is not. Anyone participating in a public forum needs to observe basic rules of decency and respect. Tolerance of opinions that differ from your own. That is objective fact, is it not? Otherwise chaos will quickly ensue and rude trolls run rampant.

Extreme nihilist perspectives are opinion. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Everyone is also entitled to be heard respectfully. I completely promote that.

Why I am even here still talking is because I became a target of unwarranted (passive?) aggression by using the word 'happier'. I am not the first and probably won't be the last to be targeted unfortunately. I've been called many things since this began.

From memory…spiteful, a bully, malicious, bitter, shouldn't be on the forum, privileged, insane, delusional, dishonest, lying to self and others, making others more suicidal, bragging, 'wanting to get old and suffer', maliciously and vexatiously derailing people's threads, flaming and please let's not forget those old standbys 'prolife', 'troll', 'proselytising', 'gatekeeping', etc etc.

Even offered a patronising hug from the guy who just called me insane and a liar!

If I have a purpose in all this it is to raise people's awareness of what is happening here and why.

 

[SamTam33]

Outside of internet forums, I don't think I would ever challenge anyone's views on life, their religious beliefs, etc.

I don't care enough about what people think to engage. I already know that they're struggling and that their life sucks. I don't need them to admit it.

But I use this space to wax philosophical; ponder the point of it all.

On some level, I understand why people believe what they do.

I envy them in some ways. To be completely tolerant of whatever life throws their way... I wouldn't object to being built that way.

You know how some people are born with perfect vision and never need corrective lenses? I think we were born with different optical abilities.

The ability to see clean through bullshit. The ability to see absolutism where other people see ambiguity. The ability to see a foundation of despair while everyone else is still dallying with hope.

It's a curse.

 

[freedompass]

Outside of internet forums, I don't think I would ever challenge anyone's views on life, their religious beliefs, etc.

I don't care enough about what people think to engage. I already know that they're struggling and that their life sucks. I don't need them to admit it.

But I use this space to wax philosophical; ponder the point of it all.

On some level, I understand why people believe what they do.

I envy them in some ways. To be completely tolerant of whatever life throws their way... I wouldn't object to being built that way.

You know how some people are born with perfect vision and never need corrective lenses? I think we were born with different optical abilities.

The ability to see clean through bullshit. The ability to see absolutism where other people see ambiguity. The ability to see a foundation of despair while everyone else is still dallying with hope.

It's a curse.

Are you even serious at this point?

'It's lonely at the top' right? I legitimately feel bad that you can't or don't choose to engage with others in discussion here or in real life because you already know they're wrong. Their lives suck they're just lying to themselves.

That's sad. If you are being real. You are missing out on so much.

 

[SamTam33]

...I've been called many things since this began.

From memory…spiteful, a bully, malicious, bitter, shouldn't be on the forum, privileged, insane, delusional, dishonest, lying to self and others, making others more suicidal, bragging, 'wanting to get old and suffer', maliciously and vexatiously derailing people's threads, flaming and please let's not forget those old standbys 'prolife', 'troll', 'proselytising', 'gatekeeping', etc etc.

That's a lot of criticisms. Do you just assume that everyone is wrong and you're none of those things?

My dad says stuff like this. He complains about what everyone calls him. And I'm like... DUDE. There must be a reason why so many people view you as this.

Yesterday I asked him why he thinks none of his 5 kids like him. He chose not to answer. (It's cause he's a shit "dad")

People say I look mean. Guess what I've concluded? That I look mean.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I like debate and discussion too. But there is gonna be a significant road block to achieving that when an individual member insists that they are 'objectively' right and that anyone who disagrees is de facto delusional/crazy/a troll/prolife and so on. It's not how mature people operate and there are no special cases or exceptions to that rule. It's not acceptable. Period.

Is that my subjective opinion? No it is not. Anyone participating in a public forum needs to observe basic rules of decency and respect. Tolerance of opinions that differ from your own. That is objective fact, is it not? Otherwise chaos will quickly ensue and rude trolls run rampant.

Extreme nihilist perspectives are opinion. Everyone is entitled to their beliefs. Everyone is also entitled to be heard respectfully. I completely promote that.

Why I am even here still talking is because I became a target of unwarranted (passive?) aggression by using the word 'happier'. I am not the first and probably won't be the last to be targeted unfortunately. I've been called many things since this began.

From memory…spiteful, a bully, malicious, bitter, shouldn't be on the forum, privileged, insane, delusional, dishonest, lying to self and others, making others more suicidal, bragging, 'wanting to get old and suffer', maliciously and vexatiously derailing people's threads, flaming and please let's not forget those old standbys 'prolife', 'troll', 'proselytising', 'gatekeeping', etc etc.

Even offered a patronising hug from the guy who just called me insane and a liar!

If I have a purpose in all this it is to raise people's awareness of what is happening here and why.

I do take your point. I absolutely agree that we (should) all be adults on here. We ought to be able to openly voice our arguments on a subject without the whole thing degrading into personal shaming.

It's a very difficult subject and I don't know what the anwer is. What I would say is- is that we are a disperate group of people who get triggered by lots of different things. It's treading this weird fine line between free speech and trying not to insult or undermine someone.

Sometimes this is clearer and easier to do than other times. Take for example gender dysphoria. I feel deeply sorry for people who suffer from this. It must be awful to feel entirely at odds with the body you have been given. That said- I don't enjoy being female. I can't (honestly) get my head around why someone would want this. From my own selfish perspective, I know that I sometimes can feel trigered by posts by men who long to be women. I don't mean that to sound transphobic- it just happens to be my initial reaction from my own experience. Therefore- for most of the time- I avoid commenting on these threads because I know what I would want to say wouldn't help them at all.

Of course- I realise there's a big difference between a personal wish to be a different gender than an insistance that EVERYONE ought to experience their life as meaningless and painful. Still, I guess I've come to realise that for some people- this has become an intrinsic belief- that they don't want questioned. I don't think things are always offered up as a subject of debate here... Sometimes it is just a rant.

It's not to say that we shouldn't be allowed to question people, it's just that sometimes people take offence (even if that wasn't our intention.) It's not to excuse anyone for insulting behaviour either. It's just an observation that some people aren't open to discussing their beliefs. We all get trigered by different things- so to an extent- I think if it's clear someone doesn't want to justify why they feel like they do- and they seem to take offence when that happens, it seems better to walk away rather than keep prodding.

 

[freedompass]

It was just a suggestion.

I was being sincere about the virtual hug. People who are happIER don't do this. Or they shouldn't. Who knows.

Let's face it: all of us are screwed up. It's like addicts being able to spot other addicts.

Don't do what? Call people out for throwing around unwarranted insults on a suicide forum?

Where have I ever claimed to have all my ducks in a row or have everything sussed out? Yet you get to tell me how and where I should spend my time?

 

[SamTam33]

Are you even serious at this point?

'It's lonely at the top' right? I legitimately feel bad that you can't or don't choose to engage with others in discussion here or in real life because you already know they're wrong. Their lives suck they're just lying to themselves.

That's sad. If you are being real. You are missing out on so much.

I'm not missing out on anything. Nobody I know is doing anything special.

Your ex is texting your son to try and maintain a connection to you.

You think your boss is going to fire you on Friday.

The doctor found polyps during your colonoscopy.

You're 3 months pregnant and want a divorce.

Your wife keeps the house too cold and the phone is too loud when she plays Candy Crush.

I know. Life is grand.

*All real scenarios I've been entertained with over the last 2 weeks.

Don't do what? Call people out for throwing around unwarranted insults on a suicide forum?

Where have I ever claimed to have all my ducks in a row or have everything sussed out? Yet you get to tell me how and where I should spend my time?

I'm just saying... If this is you "happIER than you've ever been in life," your life must have been pure shit from the moment your head popped out.

 

[freedompass]

That's a lot of criticisms. Do you just assume that everyone is wrong and you're none of those things?

My dad says stuff like this. He complains about what everyone calls him. And I'm like... DUDE. There must be a reason why so many people view you as this.

Yesterday I asked him why he thinks none of his 5 kids like him. He chose not to answer. (It's cause he's a shit "dad")

People say I look mean. Guess what I've concluded? That I look mean.

This is just in the last 2 days since my 'happier' comment. It's a few people on a suicide forum. The last 2 days. But that should cause me a major existential crisis should it? I should go to the desert and ponder the error of my ways?

Being told you 'look mean' is nothing like having your character globally assassinated by multiple people on a suicide forum, based on what?!? Sorry to hear your dad is shit. So was mine. Mum ain't great either for that matter.

I'm just saying... If this is you "happIER than you've ever been in life," your life must have been pure shit from the moment your head popped out.

Adult life

I'm actually relieved you do have real life interactions. At least you have people in your life to talk to should you decide they have anything worth hearing.

 

[SamTam33]

This is just in the last 2 days since my 'happier' comment. It's a few people on a suicide forum. The last 2 days. But that should cause me a major existential crisis should it? I should go to the desert and ponder the error of my ways?

Being told you 'look mean' is nothing like having your character globally assassinated by multiple people on a suicide forum, based on what?!? Sorry to hear your dad is shit. So was mine. Mum ain't great either for that matter.

Adult life

Globally assassinated.

 

[Huntfish34]

I'm honestly just lost with Alll of the text going on. To each their own I suppose. ? Regardless of Anything, I wish Everyone the best.... Happy Friday ( or not ) Thoughts and prayers -

 

[rationaltake]

I'm just saying... If this is you "happIER than you've ever been in life," your life must have been pure shit from the moment your head popped out.

You must have very real issues if somebody using the word happier triggers you so much. This is the third time you've brought it up in this thread.

 

[SamTam33]

You must have very real issues if somebody using the word happier triggers you so much. This is the third time you've brought it up in this thread.

Yep. That's how the conversation started: me doubting the happIERness of people who post here. That's the overall topic.

 

[rationaltake]

Yep. That's how the conversation started: me doubting the happIERness of people who post here. That's the overall topic.

You've been targeting one particular user for using the word happier.

 

[freedompass]

I do take your point. I absolutely agree that we (should) all be adults on here. We ought to be able to openly voice our arguments on a subject without the whole thing degrading into personal shaming.

It's a very difficult subject and I don't know what the anwer is. What I would say is- is that we are a disperate group of people who get triggered by lots of different things. It's treading this weird fine line between free speech and trying not to insult or undermine someone.

Sometimes this is clearer and easier to do than other times. Take for example gender dysphoria. I feel deeply sorry for people who suffer from this. It must be awful to feel entirely at odds with the body you have been given. That said- I don't enjoy being female. I can't (honestly) get my head around why someone would want this. From my own selfish perspective, I know that I sometimes can feel trigered by posts by men who long to be women. I don't mean that to sound transphobic- it just happens to be my initial reaction from my own experience. Therefore- for most of the time- I avoid commenting on these threads because I know what I would want to say wouldn't help them at all.

Of course- I realise there's a big difference between a personal wish to be a different gender than an insistance that EVERYONE ought to experience their life as meaningless and painful. Still, I guess I've come to realise that for some people- this has become an intrinsic belief- that they don't want questioned. I don't think things are always offered up as a subject of debate here... Sometimes it is just a rant.

It's not to say that we shouldn't be allowed to question people, it's just that sometimes people take offence (even if that wasn't our intention.) It's not to excuse anyone for insulting behaviour either. It's just an observation that some people aren't open to discussing their beliefs. We all get trigered by different things- so to an extent- I think if it's clear someone doesn't want to justify why they feel like they do- and they seem to take offence when that happens, it seems better to walk away rather than keep prodding.

Once again you miss my point. It's not being 'triggered' to object to personal invalidating attacks. I'm not walking away from someone who is calling me all of the above. That is not acceptable behaviour. I'm not asking FC to justify anything. Just desist from the name calling. She is at total liberty to think and say whatever she wants, but if she personally attacks demeans and invalidates me then yes I will call her out. This behaviour has been going unchecked for a long time and is the thin end of a dangerous wedge. It's escalating, others see it and want to act the same and the impact on the forum isn't good. If everyone 'just walks away' the issue isn't dealt with. Either a behaviour is acceptable for all? Or it's not acceptable for anyone.

 

[SamTam33]

You've been targeting one particular user for using the word happier.

So?

That one particular poster quoted me when I was not talking to them. They made a point of emphasizing that they are happIER and I'm calling bullshit. If they're so damn happy, why are they following me all over the board playing the fucking martyr? Go be happIER!