Resource Using psychological techniques to overcome SI / other roadblocks to ctb

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

Someone mentioned this in another thread and I thought it was an amazing idea to implement. One could utilize CBT and DBT to help overcome any SI - e.g. seeing reservations about ctb'ing as "irrational" via using thought noting e.g. "that's just a thought; i don't have to listen to it" and doing that for all other reservations - guilt about loved ones, etc.

You could use DBT techniques of "coping ahead" to imagine going through your ctb plan - imagine encountering the fear, anxiety, other obstacles, and then successfully overcoming them via your coping skills. it would even be a good idea to make a list ahead of time of what might get in your way, and then think of how to cope with it. also imagine the freedom from pain and suffering once you are successful.

You could also use mindfulness/meditation to train your mind to let go of any unwanted/anti-ctb thoughts, to use breathing techniques to calm your mind, etc.


(all this should of course only be done after you're sure you want to ctb and after exhausting all other resources)

 

[4_science]

This is bs. Sorry to tell you that.

When something happens in your life you try to deal with new stressors to maintain emotional balance.
And whether you're aware of them or not, you use coping mechanisms to navigate and manage those emotions.
Skill sets taught in DBT are meant to overcome emotions, not vital instincts which are rooted in a completely different part of your brain (amygdala). Instincts are primal and are rooted deeper and can´t be overcome using skills.

CBT does not equal endless ways of manipulation. I can tell you it won´t work either since CBT is based on reason and reasonable choices. Your suggestions indicate the lack of basic understanding of CBT and DBT.

No amount of meditation, 4-7-8 breathing etc. near train tracks is going to overcome a primal instinct rooted in the most primitive part of your brain, the reptilian brain, which you can´t access or manipulate willingly or at all.

 

[thenamingofcats]

I think it's great! Especially because I'm mostly anti-therapy after my 2+ decades of it and have experienced CBT as mostly gaslighting. Maybe in theory CBT is supposed to be about reason but that hasn't been my experience with it with dozens of practitioners in the 4 states I've lived in. Depending on your philosophy, there are many times when ctb'ing could be the most rational choice (like in terminal illness) so it wouldn't be gaslighting in every case.

 

[hopeless08]

Someone mentioned this in another thread and I thought it was an amazing idea to implement. One could utilize CBT and DBT to help overcome any SI - e.g. seeing reservations about ctb'ing as "irrational" via using thought noting e.g. "that's just a thought; i don't have to listen to it" and doing that for all other reservations - guilt about loved ones, etc.

You could use DBT techniques of "coping ahead" to imagine going through your ctb plan - imagine encountering the fear, anxiety, other obstacles, and then successfully overcoming them via your coping skills. it would even be a good idea to make a list ahead of time of what might get in your way, and then think of how to cope with it. also imagine the freedom from pain and suffering once you are successful.

You could also use mindfulness/meditation to train your mind to let go of any unwanted/anti-ctb thoughts, to use breathing techniques to calm your mind, etc.


(all this should of course only be done after you're sure you want to ctb and after exhausting all other resources)

Thank you for taking the time to help others and giving tips on how to overcome SI, god knows we all need them but I think that at least in my case,
no amount of of coping mechanisms are going to work, especially when it comes to the overwhelming emotions and thoughts about leaving your loved ones behind to suffer. I believe those emotions are too strong to overcome, no matter what you say to yourself, I don't think they can be avoided. I wish it was that easy. I appreciate you putting together a plan to try to help others with SI, though

 

[4_science]

Thank you for taking the time to help others and giving tips on how to overcome SI, god knows we all need them but I think that at least in my case,
no amount of of coping mechanisms are going to work, especially when it comes to the overwhelming emotions and thoughts about leaving your loved ones behind to suffer. I believe those emotions are too strong to overcome, no matter what you say to yourself, I don't think they can be avoided. I wish it was that easy. I appreciate you putting together a plan to try to help others with SI, though

This is not a plan. It is false hope. I explained why it won´t work, but who wants to take facts over false hope?

In general, overwhelming emotions can be overcome, through learnt behaviour for instance or CBT if done correctly. But those emotions you refer to are reasonable and healthy (end goal). You can´t do CBT backwards to come out with the opposite if that makes sense.

 

[thenamingofcats]

This is not a plan. It is false hope. I explained why it won´t work, but who wants to take facts over false hope?

In general, overwhelming emotions can be overcome, through learnt behaviour for instance or CBT if done correctly. But those emotions you refer to are reasonable and healthy (end goal). You can´t do CBT backwards to come out with the opposite if that makes sense.

Facts and the field of psychology are 2 things that don't go together

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

This is bs. Sorry to tell you that.

When something happens in your life you try to deal with new stressors to maintain emotional balance.
And whether you're aware of them or not, you use coping mechanisms to navigate and manage those emotions.
Skill sets taught in DBT are meant to overcome emotions, not vital instincts which are rooted in a completely different part of your brain (amygdala). Instincts are primal and are rooted deeper and can´t be overcome using skills.

CBT does not equal endless ways of manipulation. I can tell you it won´t work either since CBT is based on reason and reasonable choices. Your suggestions indicate the lack of basic understanding of CBT and DBT.

No amount of meditation, 4-7-8 breathing etc. near train tracks is going to overcome a primal instinct rooted in the most primitive part of your brain, the reptilian brain, which you can´t access or manipulate willingly or at all.

Nah, CBT and DBT have been used to brainwash people into buying into oppressor's stories forever, they very much can and do override instinctual responses to violence, etc. (and SI won't be as ingrained anyway if you contemplate enough about suicide and why you want to ctb). This is actually why both CBT and DBT often make CPTSD worse for people and are not recommended for groups experiencing things like racism.

But if anyone feels defeatist about it and wishes to wallow in SI, that's their choice ofc. A lot of people are just on this forum to vent, etc, and that's fine for them. For those interested in action, I had some stuff to offer that they can take or leave.

I think it's great! Especially because I'm mostly anti-therapy after my 2+ decades of it and have experienced CBT as mostly gaslighting. Maybe in theory CBT is supposed to be about reason but that hasn't been my experience with it with dozens of practitioners in the 4 states I've lived in. Depending on your philosophy, there are many times when ctb'ing could be the most rational choice (like in terminal illness) so it wouldn't be gaslighting in every case.

EXACTLY. You get it. Thank you.

Thank you for taking the time to help others and giving tips on how to overcome SI, god knows we all need them but I think that at least in my case,
no amount of of coping mechanisms are going to work, especially when it comes to the overwhelming emotions and thoughts about leaving your loved ones behind to suffer. I believe those emotions are too strong to overcome, no matter what you say to yourself, I don't think they can be avoided. I wish it was that easy. I appreciate you putting together a plan to try to help others with SI, though

I didn't say it was easy. It actually takes a lot of work to employ these techniques effectively. Like years and decades perhaps. But some are strongminded and can master then quickly enough to achieve their goal.

 

[hopeless08]

Nah, CBT and DBT have been used to brainwash people into buying into oppressor's stories forever, they very much can and do override instinctual responses to violence, etc. (and SI won't be as ingrained anyway if you contemplate enough about suicide and why you want to ctb). This is actually why both CBT and DBT often make CPTSD worse for people and are not recommended for groups experiencing things like racism.

But if anyone feels defeatist about it and wishes to wallow in SI, that's their choice ofc. A lot of people are just on this forum to vent, etc, and that's fine for them. For those interested in action, I had some stuff to other that they can take or leave.

EXACTLY. You get it. Thank you.

I didn't say it was easy. It actually takes a lot of work to employ these techniques effectively. Like years and decades perhaps. But some are strongminded and can master then quickly enough to achieve their goal.

Sorry I guess I didn't comprehend what you were trying to say.

 

[4_science]

I think it's great! Especially because I'm mostly anti-therapy after my 2+ decades of it and have experienced CBT as mostly gaslighting. Maybe in theory CBT is supposed to be about reason but that hasn't been my experience with it with dozens of practitioners in the 4 states I've lived in. Depending on your philosophy, there are many times when ctb'ing could be the most rational choice (like in terminal illness) so it wouldn't be gaslighting in every case.

I am sorry you encountered therapists and treatment which was not beneficial to you and gave you the wrong impression.
- First of all, CBT is no cure all and won´t work for complex issues (most of them trauma-based).
- Second, in the US everything is a money making grinding machine. Pls check credentials and reviews beforehand. Taking advantage and making money off of vulnerable people is not very hard.
- Third, CBT has nothing to do with gaslighting or other manipulation techniques.
- Fourth, the indication of CBT is is not based on philosophy. CBT in palliative care is a bit controversial. It can help to counter intense psychological distress and support existing treatment plans, but it is an individual decision based on the patient´s needs.

 

[Illegal Preclear]

CBT and DBT would just make you overthink things. The key to CTB is (quite unintuitively) is to make as little a deal about is as possible. Put energy into researching your method thoroughly, of course - but once you have that decided on and are ready to go through with it - empty your mind. Treat it like spontaneously going for a walk. The most SUCCESSFUL CTBs are those done spontaneously. The more you build it up in your mind - the more SI is going to fight back. It's why kids who hang themselves in pure despair over having their Fortnite V-Bux stolen (true story) have success. It's the spontaneity of it that makes it work somehow. It's like you have to have your RAW DESIRE to die just overpower your reptilian brain.

 

[thenamingofcats]

I am sorry you encountered therapists and treatment which was not beneficial to you and gave you the wrong impression.
- First of all, CBT is no cure all and won´t work for complex issues (most of them trauma-based).
- Second, in the US everything is a money making grinding machine. Pls check credentials and reviews beforehand. Taking advantage and making money off of vulnerable people is not very hard.
- Third, CBT has nothing to do with gaslighting or other manipulation techniques.
- Fourth, the indication of CBT is is not based on philosophy. CBT in palliative care is a bit controversial. It can help to counter intense psychological distress and support existing treatment plans, but it is an individual decision based on the patient´s needs.

I don't have reason to believe that any (except 1) of my therapists were taking advantage or had less than good credentials. I've come to my conclusions due to my extensive experience with the field in private and institutional settings. Those that have been institutionalized have usually worked with a large number of people. Most therapists that treat trauma do use cbt and dbt, maybe not exclusively, but it's the most common by far. Although I don't think that therapists have a goal of using cbt to gaslight, it often comes off that way, especially for trauma patients and those struggling with poverty and other types of oppression.

 

[4_science]

Nah, CBT and DBT have been used to brainwash people into buying into oppressor's stories forever, they very much can and do override instinctual responses to violence, etc. (and SI won't be as ingrained anyway if you contemplate enough about suicide and why you want to ctb). This is actually why both CBT and DBT often make CPTSD worse for people and are not recommended for groups experiencing things like racism.

But if anyone feels defeatist about it and wishes to wallow in SI, that's their choice ofc. A lot of people are just on this forum to vent, etc, and that's fine for them. For those interested in action, I had some stuff to other that they can take or leave.

EXACTLY. You get it. Thank you.

I didn't say it was easy. It actually takes a lot of work to employ these techniques effectively. Like years and decades perhaps. But some are strongminded and can master then quickly enough to achieve their goal.

Again, CBT is counter-indicated for PTSD or CPTSD.

CBT and DBT are often used to make a quick buck or offer very basic therapy options. You can´t apply a band aid on a deep gashing wound expecting it to work. Imo, only a very small amount of people benefit from DBT. If you ask me, I´d eradicate it from any curriculum or change the entire concept of it.

SI is rooted in the amygdala. I explained why your suggestions won´t work. Not even through repetition.

 

[thenamingofcats]

Again, CBT is counter-indicated for PTSD or CPTSD.

That's just not true though

Treatments for PTSD

Four therapeutic interventions are strongly recommended, all of which are variations of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Three therapies and four medications received conditional recommendations.

www.apa.org

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

Again, CBT is counter-indicated for PTSD or CPTSD.

CBT and DBT are often used to make a quick buck or offer very basic therapy options. You can´t apply a band aid on a deep gashing wound expecting it to work. Imo, only a very small amount of people benefit from DBT. If you ask me, I´d eradicate it from any curriculum or change the entire concept of it.

SI is rooted in the amygdala. I explained why your suggestions won´t work. Not even through repetition.

Exactly, they're not recommended bc they are inherently gaslighting. In this case you want to essentially gaslight yourself that harming yourself is a good idea if you hold a deep belief that ctb is "bad." Idk what other parts of my messages you didn't understand or weren't clear but that's one for starters.

People do self harming things for all kinds of ridiculous reasons because they've been gaslit to do so. For instance, women rip hair out of their bodies, risk their lives to get plastic surgery and destroy their muscle and bone structure by wearing high heels, because they buy into patriarchal values.

Well, anyway, the techniques have worked for me and I hope you find relief in your own way at some point.

 

[4_science]

I don't have reason to believe that any (except 1) of my therapists were taking advantage or had less than good credentials. I've come to my conclusions due to my extensive experience with the field in private and institutional settings. (...)

I´ve come to my conclusion as a therapist (specialised in (CBT, EMDR and trauma therapy, LGBTQ+ affirmative therapy) having gone through extensive training and experience in private and institutional settings. :)

Although I don't think that therapists have a goal of using cbt to gaslight, it often comes off that way, especially for trauma patients and those struggling with poverty and other types of oppression.

You are correct there. External factors or stressors such as poverty, living conditions and basic needs not being met, therapy can´t fix that. It is not a miracle cure. No cure at all and not promoted as such. It is a form of supportive treatment. At the end of the day, there is no heathy choice to apply in situations you can´t control. A dead mouse is a dead mouse. Doesn´t matter how you look at it.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

CBT and DBT would just make you overthink things. The key to CTB is (quite unintuitively) is to make as little a deal about is as possible. Put energy into researching your method thoroughly, of course - but once you have that decided on and are ready to go through with it - empty your mind. Treat it like spontaneously going for a walk. The most SUCCESSFUL CTBs are those done spontaneously. The more you build it up in your mind - the more SI is going to fight back. It's why kids who hang themselves in pure despair over having their Fortnite V-Bux stolen (true story) have success. It's the spontaneity of it that makes it work somehow. It's like you have to have your RAW DESIRE to die just overpower your reptilian brain.

Sure, this could be achieved by emptying your mind via meditation and mindfulness practice, letting go of thoughts telling you to not go through with it, and developing that strong desire through spending a lot of time thinking about your reasons for ctb until a huge tide of emotion is backing your decision.

Thats exactly what I'm saying- use psychological techniques to help overcome SI.

 

[thenamingofcats]

I´ve come to my conclusion as a therapist (specialised in (CBT, EMDR and trauma therapy, LGBTQ+ affirmative therapy) having gone through extensive training and experience in private and institutional settings. :)

But all that experience is in training and in being the therapist, not the patient. Since the goal of therapy is to improve patient lives, I would never look to the therapists to tell me if therapy works or not. Your responses here are in line with why I feel how I do about therapy.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

I´ve come to my conclusion as a therapist (specialised in (CBT, EMDR and trauma therapy, LGBTQ+ affirmative therapy) having gone through extensive training and experience in private and institutional settings. :)

You are correct there. External factors or stressors such as poverty, living conditions and basic needs not being met, therapy can´t fix that. It is not a miracle cure. No cure at all and not promoted as such. It is a form of supportive treatment. At the end of the day, there is no heathy choice to apply in situations you can´t control. A dead mouse is a dead mouse. Doesn´t matter how you look at it.

Ah, you're a therapist. Makes sense you believe that CBT and DBT are based on aligning oneself to reality and "facts," lol and that they therefore wouldn't work for overcoming barriers to ctb. Therapy is a laughable profession full of incurious, authoritarian, small-minded defeatist individuals and I've never met one who didn't fit the mold. It's even in your handle, the ode to almighty Science.

 

[thenamingofcats]

Ah, you're a therapist. Makes sense you believe that CBT and DBT are based on aligning oneself to reality and "facts," lol and that they therefore wouldn't work for overcoming barriers to ctb. Therapy is a laughable profession full of incurious, authoritarian, small-minded defeatist individuals and I've never met one who didn't fit the mold. It's even in your handle, the ode to almighty Science.

How do you feel about analysis? I've always been much more interested in it but tbh, full of perverts. What I like about analysis is that its focus is on the deeper things like why we are how we are and understanding ourselves.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

How do you feel about analysis? I've always been much more interested in it but tbh, full of perverts. What I like about analysis is that its focus is on the deeper things like why we are how we are and understanding ourselves.

Still bullshit that promotes obedience to oppressive structures. May I DM you a book recommendation?

IMO the best way to utilize psychology is to study it on your own and then apply it to putting into practice what *you* know to be the truth or what *you* want to do as far as behavior, etc.

 

[4_science]

That's just not true though

Treatments for PTSD

Four therapeutic interventions are strongly recommended, all of which are variations of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT). Three therapies and four medications received conditional recommendations.

www.apa.org

Like I said, trying to apply a band aid on a gaping wound doesn´t cut it. Recommended treatment does not mean primary or sole treatment. CBT should be used in combination with other treatment options. Recommended treatment does not always mean it is beneficial to the patient or necessary. It is a consensus and standard. Those don´t work for everyone and can make you worse depending on the individual and circumstances. Hence why, it shouldn´t be used in trauma patients especially in early stages of treatment.

 

[thenamingofcats]

Still bullshit that promotes obedience to oppressive structures. May I DM you a book recommendation?

IMO the best way to utilize psychology is to study it on your own and then apply it to putting into practice what *you* know to be the truth or what *you* want to do as far as behavior, etc.

Feel free to DM me

 

[4_science]

How do you feel about analysis? I've always been much more interested in it but tbh, full of perverts. What I like about analysis is that its focus is on the deeper things like why we are how we are and understanding ourselves.

Traditional Psychoanalysis goes back to Freud and Jung (1930s). In my opinion it is very outdated but still standard. Doesn´t mean it is beneficial, feasible or sufficient. You can talk about problems and why you have them. It does not fix them. I only used it in parts to help clients understand when I saw fit. As a sole approach it doesn´t do anything for you. (No, we don´t always blame your mother or address your inner child). Although it is very outdated and has been proven insufficient, it is kind of forced in treatment. Why? Well, I´d like to know that as well.
Basic training for therapists is mostly based on psychoanalysis. For everything else, you gotta pay extra and spend some more years and then fight with insurances to accept different options. The system is broken.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

Traditional Psychoanalysis goes back to Freud and Jung (1930s). In my opinion it is very outdated but still standard. Doesn´t mean it is beneficial, feasible or sufficient. You can talk about problems and why you have them. It does not fix them. I only used it in parts to help clients understand when I saw fit. As a sole approach it doesn´t do anything for you. (No, we don´t always blame your mother or address your inner child). Although it is very outdated and has been proven insufficient, it is kind of forced in treatment. Why? Well, I´d like to know that as well.
Basic training for therapists is mostly based on psychoanalysis. For everything else, you gotta pay extra and spend some more years and then fight with insurances to accept different options. The system is broken.

Lmao, I don't think the question was directed to you. It's always hilarious to me how therapists also have no social skills. It's almost like people who are naive enough to think you can understand human nature from books and classes and who inherently lack emotional intelligence yet want to improve their own, go into the field. And they love being authorities even when their opinion is not solicited or wanted.

Amazing.

 

[4_science]

Still bullshit that promotes obedience to oppressive structures. May I DM you a book recommendation?

IMO the best way to utilize psychology is to study it on your own and then apply it to putting into practice what *you* know to be the truth or what *you* want to do as far as behavior, etc.

Sure thing. Got cancer? Trust yourself with that. Maybe some herbal oils. You know best. No training or qualification needed. They are all quacks anyways. You know yourself best. Got a broken bone? Get some sticks and fix it yourself.

Pls, don´t do it. I was being sarcastic. I´m sorry you have such a negative view. I do understand it though. Like I said, the system is broken and it broke me. I was sick and tired of fighting it or getting in at a point a person went through countless negative experiences in treatment that should support and help them.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

Sure thing. Got cancer? Trust yourself with that. Maybe some herbal oils. You know best. No training or qualification needed. They are all quacks anyways. You know yourself best. Got a broken bone? Get some sticks and fix it yourself.

I literally said to use it on things that you have investigated and know to be true. Nice strawman. Therapists are so bad at manipulating and harming even when they're trying with everything they've got.

 

[4_science]

Like most therapists, you literally have no reading comprehension skills
if you think that I'm saying applying techniques to get yourself to ctb is the same as applying them to a gaping wound- eg solving the trauma, depression or whatever that is leading one to ctb. The two are not the same, Dr. Almighty Science.

Therapists have no creativity and are woefully authoritarian which is why you literally don't even understand the basic premises of my argument. People who go into therapy are not the brightest bulbs, and you have to be even more dim to think of displaying your "credentials" as a badge of honor and prestige.

"Like I said" "Like I said" from an illiterate therapist. Lmao

Do you always proceed to personal attacks to offend people you disagree with?
It is past 3.45 am my time. I haven´t slept for 48 hours and I am not a native speaker. There is no need to insult or mock me. I was trying to explain things from my point of view offering a different perspective. If you think it doesn´t apply to you, then don´t take it. A lot gets lost in written conversation. You shouldn´t assume anything. You know nothing about me or my work. Nobody is Almighty. I am sorry your personal anger and frustration triggers personal attacks and insults.

 

[Lifeaffirmingchoice]

Do you always proceed to personal attacks to offend people you disagree with?
It is past 3.45 am my time. I haven´t slept for 48 hours and I am not a native speaker. There is no need to insult or mock me. I was trying to explain things from my point of view offering a different perspective. If you think it doesn´t apply to you, then don´t take it. A lot gets lost in written conversation. You shouldn´t assume anything. You know nothing about me or my work. Nobody is Almighty. I am sorry your personal anger and frustration triggers personal attacks and insults.

You literally came straight out the gate saying that my suggestion was "bs." Projecting all the way there. Not being a native speaker is not an excuse for not carefully reading enough to not strawman and misrepresent. Don't try to make excuses when you know exactly what you're doing.

But all that experience is in training and in being the therapist, not the patient. Since the goal of therapy is to improve patient lives, I would never look to the therapists to tell me if therapy works or not. Your responses here are in line with why I feel how I do about therapy.

Exactly and me too.

 

[4_science]

You literally came straight out the gate saying that my suggestion was "bs." Projecting all the way there. Not being a native speaker is not an excuse for not carefully reading enough to not strawman and misrepresent. Don't try to make excuses when you know exactly what you're doing.

Your initial suggestion is incorrect and harmful imo. I specified why. I didn´t come "at you".
I am not trying anything. Yet another assumption and unnecessary attack. I am stating my opinion and care enough to elaborate. This is a discussion forum if I am not mistaken.

 

[4_science]

But all that experience is in training and in being the therapist, not the patient.

And yet I am here. I know both sides.