![Chinaski](/data/avatars/l/2/2190.jpg?1538939007)
Chinaski
Arthur Scargill appreciator
- Sep 1, 2018
- 3,106
And I have illustrated why this is objectively false, to which you have no response.
Mate, you are aware that other people can read this thread, right?
And I have illustrated why this is objectively false, to which you have no response.
Mate, you are aware that other people can read this thread, right?
@Chinaski
I'm sorry to say this, but I'm afraid I stand by what many others have said here. It isn't a matter of whether or not we have capacity and capability to ctb. It is a matter of whether or not we are freely and able to do so without persecution (locked up against one's will), able to do so without having to resort to desperate (and sometimes, violent methods), and not being handed extrajudicial punishment from exercising a free will that the vast majority of society objects to. Until the day comes where individuals who do not wish to live anymore are able to die peacefully, able to make this choice without legal/social/extrajudicial punishment, then this attitude and sentiment of resentment against pro-lifers and others who try to prevent suicide (passively or actively) will remain.
l haven't ctb'd either; l just know that the reason for this is cowardice, and not because somebody, somewhere, is a pro-lifer exercising some non-existent influence.
It's absolutely natural to be scared, be that of death, of failing, of causing pain and distress to others, of survival instinct fucking us over, of being rescued, whatever. I just honestly, seriously, do not see how having a set of 'tactics' to deploy whenever we're faced with some hardline pro-lifer is going to help with that.
That is a poorly executed attempt to have me second guessing my position, or maybe you are talking to a perceived audience of followers who you are trying to convince. It makes no matter. I have read your posts here and I know you have read my delightfully articulated replies to them because of a shocking silence. Isn't it amazing that a socio-psychological phenomenon of public shaming or having others holding a dominant belief of what is a correct line of argument or post, should sway my activity to be other. I'll consider it a soft example of what was discussed above, and thank you.
Mate, I'm not replying to your pretentious and phoney crap for the same reason l don't reply to a chicken when it clucks, jfc.
But that doesn't make it okay- none of these methods are ideal except for the N, and all have to be done in secret, and two of them can endanger others.
Yes, when someone is determined to go they go, I fully agree but why does it have to be so difficult?
I guess my final point is it's inhumane to keep people alive against their will in a psych ward and it's inhumane to force people to die in secret.
Suicidal people are the perfect victims for bullies such as employers, doctors, and so-called friends, because they can do whatever the fuck they want to us, charge us money we just don't have for it, and earn the praises of society for both "helping someone in need" and sticking it to suicidal people. Also, we don't fight back.
Agreed and also I like that you posted exactly on 4:20 pm (coincidence :P).Exactly. An inhumane society is one that would rather see a person hang then inject themself with N.
Umm, is there a reason for bumping this thread?Just as a bump and reminder.
I'm glad there is renewed interest in the topic.
It's only a week old and I'm glad there is renewed interest in the topic. Although at some point it has to move past a superficial understanding (bullies and mean people) and into a more thorough analysis of what's occurring, otherwise it's just an echo chamber.
The OP bumping his own thread is not "renewed interest".
Just as a bump and reminder. I've originally posted this topic to lament at the fact that pro-lifers oftenly have many tools and tactics at their disposal at which to persecute and oppress people like us who just want out of this meaningless, harsh existence called life. I know that the universe is not fair so I don't expect any fairness on either side. However, given the way we are treated we should at least stand up for ourselves and stand our ground so that way we don't just become a total pushover. Part of my motivation comes from this post on reddit years ago. The OP in that post mentioned that the reason suicidal people get treated poorly and are fucked in many ways is because we don't fight back (most of the time).
Agreed and also I like that you posted exactly on 4:20 pm (coincidence :P).
Disclaimer: Long post, please bear with me since I have a lot to say and quite a few examples to give.
Before I delve into this topic, let me preface this by saying I don't condone violence or any illegal acts, and I don't encourage anyone doing anything illegal or violent against anyone IRL or anywhere. This is purely just me bouncing off some ideas and exploring the concept of fighting fire with fire (metaphorically speaking).
With that said, what do you guys think of using the same tactics against the people who oppress us (anti-suicide, pro-lifers, suicide-preventionists, etc.)? In other words, giving them a taste of their own medicine (no pun intended).
One of the most common thing that pro-lifers, suicide-preventionists, and the lot of them do is to impose their will and value that life is always good, sacred, and what not. Also, from the psychiatric side of things, they purport the idea of suicide being a result of depression, irrationality, and just bad (which is a big illogical dilemma and catch-22, but I won't get into that there because this topic isn't about that). They do this by forcing us (suicidal people) to stay alive against our will, by forced treatment, locking us up (even when we have committed no legal crime (unless you consider thought crimes to be crimes)), shaming us, assassinating our social life/reputation, causing us to lose our other civil rights, and generally just fucking our lives over, etc.
Therefore, I wonder, what if we used their tactics against them?
The ideas I have come up with is that if they want us to live, they are taking our ultimate right away from us so we (suicidal and pro-choice people) should make them pay by making their lives a bit less convenient. Sure it is selfish of us but they are MUCH more selfish by imposing life on us as well as forcing us to live a life that we don't want to. Now before anyone says well "two wrongs don't make a right", "be the bigger person", "you are stooping down to their level/you are no better than them", etc. let's just put that aside for now. I'm simply talking about trying to even the odds and put up resistance against our oppressors. How does that sound?
For example:
Pro-lifer: You must live!! Life is goooooooood!! Suicide is bad (insert many more banal platitudes and other shit)
Suicidal person: Ok, now you must hug me condition then I'll live.
Pro-lifer: No, I'm not a hugger, but I still demand that you live.
Suicidal person: Fuck you, I'm killing myself!
etc.
In other words, if the pro-lifer demands, feels entitled to and/or wants pro-choice/suicidal person to live, which deprives the pro-choice/suicidal person of his/her right to die, then the pro-choice/suicidal person should be at least demand or assume entitlement to obtain something from the pro-lifer. If the pro-lifer isn't a hugger and doesn't want his/her body to make contact with said person then the pro-choice/suicidal person can tell pro-lifer to fuck off or stuff, basically show contempt for that. Granted, it isn't so clear cut and the scenario is rather oversimplified, but still gets the idea across.
Bad deal, bad trade
How I see it is that this is a shitty deal. Basically it was never a fair trade. Pro-lifers and suicide-preventionists want suicidal people to stay alive for their benefit and don't want to provide anything for the suicidal person (or as little as possible). Therefore, it is only fair if the suicidal person can be entitled to what the pro-lifer is reluctant to give. In the case example I've listed is that assume said pro-lifer/anti-suicidal person is a germaphobe, or whatever, and doesn't like public display of affection (hugs or kisses or what not), but yet said person wants to control and dictate what others' do with their bodies and life. Therefore, it is basically that pro-lifers want something that the suicidal people don't want to give up (their bodily autonomy and the right to die), yet they aren't comfortable with the idea of giving up their privacy/personal space. Hell, maybe I am a bit selfish or an asshole for seeing it in this light, but I still see the situation as a unfair deal.
Dirty tactics
I have an intense burning hatred against pro-lifers and anti-suicide people, especially the really vocal and aggressive ones. They believe that their morality is objective and they feel they have the audacity, the authority, and right to impose their way of life as well as "life" towards the people who don't want to live. So in return, I see it only fair (subjective fairness, not necessarily objective fairness - as that is difficult to define) that pro-choice or suicidal people also take from them, put up resistance, or give them hell for imposing their will on the suicidal people. Suicidal people are one of the most vulnerable in society since they are not only subject to extrajudicial sanctions, punishments, and what not, have less legal rights and protections (often less than a suspected heinous criminal), treated harshly, and then put in a desperate cycle making their lives even worse than they originally are. Again, not advocating for illegal activity or violence against the oppressors, but actively resisting them and making the pro-lifers' lives more difficult, inconvenient.
Sorry if this was quite a mouthful and a long post, but I had a lot to say and a lot to cover. Let me know if this is a good idea or not, and why. Please be thorough in your post if possible.
A more constructive direction would be to expose the evils that the system does to people so that they know, then to encourage people to fight back and resist against said system (by knowing their rights, standing up for themselves, avoid being tricked or duped into believing they have a choice, when in fact they don't).
I guess a lot of people on here already know about the evils of the mental health system and society, but at least for the people who don't know, I would do them a favor by bringing to light the horrors of the mental health system and treatment of patients in said system (who have committed no crimes, or did anything wrong other than being suicidal).
As far as mental health professionals, coworkers, law enforcement, and the system itself, well I suppose a good deal of them are doing their job but it is also unhelpful that the general attitude of them is that suicidal people are mentally ill, irrational, and we must save them from themselves (and then make them miss work, saddle them with massive medical bills that will financially cripple them, and of course a mark on their record which will affect their career, their social life, and certain civil rights, etc.). Therefore, those people aren't necessarily looking out for our best interests, but mainly just looking for their own, and it's (almost) never about the suicidal's interest, it's about them and will always be about them. By fighting back (not necessarily doing something illegal or violent), I mean resisting them, arming oneself with the knowledge of their tactics and ways to prevent onself from being ensnared into a financial and civilly punitive trap, and also making their lives a bit harder if one was going down.
I guess you could say I was never the type to just turn the other cheek and go down without resistance (but that's another topic altogether heh). I mean, I don't see us "stooping down" to their level or being as bad as them for simply defending our rights and our autonomy. If they are selfish enough to impose life without letting us the freedom or right to end our own lives, then it is only right for us to take from them for imposing a hellish existence that we never agreed to and punishing us for simply wanting to quit or leave. Yes, I know that people can still choose to kill themselves, but that's not the point. The point is that if one fails the attempt, is caught planning, and/or has ideation or means of carrying out suicide, then one would be locked up against one's will (without due process and without having committed any crimes or done anything wrong per se).
For the last question, I'm not sure what you mean by 'outside', so I'm not sure how I'd answer that one.
Being pro choice is like being an atheist a few hundred years ago when everyone else was religious. There views are based on magic, and are laughable. They have their views due to a poor understanding of the complex rules laws and information about life/suicide. Their are much more effective ways to bring about change. Humans are tribal animals not magic. You could try to copy what has worked in the past. Unfortunately when you graph the data, it's clear real change is brought about by improvements in technology rather than social movements etc.
This is true to an extent and you aren't wrong. However, I do wonder then how was MLK very successful in bringing out social change and the civil rights movement of the 60's?
If someone is naive enough to declare their suicidal intentions to a professional, wouldn't it then follow that they aren't rational enough to commit a "rational" suicide in the first place, at least in the current pro-life climate?
This is true to an extent and you aren't wrong. However, I do wonder then how was MLK very successful in bringing out social change and the civil rights movement of the 60's?
@waived Good responses and if more people are resisting said system actively, then perhaps that would change how suicide prevention is handled and even provoke an response enough to question whether their own means are effective or not. I think for any change it would be gradual steps towards a major change. By that I mean for example, if enough people stopped trying to open up or actively resisted and made it more difficult for the oppressors (the vast majority of society including people in positions of authority and professionals), it would at least make them question or change their ways. If anything, if it could open up an honest dialogue or at least destigmatize and allow some open, honest discussion, then that would be a step to change the process of involuntary commitment and even push for better treatment of the suicidal (less punitive, less cruel, and more humane, more compassionate). Throughout time, if enough of these small, gradual steps are taken, then it will slowly shift society towards decriminalizing and abolishing involuntary commitment or at least less and less often. Even if there isn't a total legalization of voluntary euthanasia (as much as our ambitious dreams and vision of such a society), it would at least decriminalize suicidality and less punitive treatment of the suicidal people.
As of current day, society and the people who are anti-choice, anti-suicide have this mentality and attitude towards that 'suicide is never an option.' 'suicide is a result of mental illness.' 'suicide is always irrational/not the right mind.' 'suicidal people are depressed.' etc. So to start things off, these attitudes and misconceptions will need to be changed. Starting from the basics, it would start off with people who are terminally ill, who have chronic illness, and those who are otherwise rational and sane, but are suffering greatly. That one starting point would be our jumping off point/springboard to push for change. This one point if proven correctly would dispel the myth that suicidal people or people who want to die are depressed or irrational. (e.g. someone who is terminally ill but otherwise in their right state of mind should have the capacity to choose whether to live or die.)
Let me know if I'm on the right track with this.
If you would like, I can explain this to you reasonably well, it's just going to be long, not short as this stuff gets complicated fast. As a general rule of thumb only systems we fully understand are black and white like tic tac toe.
I would be interested in your explanation as well.