Universal Basic Income and Right to Painless Suicide : the 2 Keys of Freedom

[Alucard]

*To be Pro-Life is to prevent others from dying without pain, forcing them to live even if they no longer want to, even if they are in excruciating pain.
*To be Pro-Death is to incite others to suicide, prevent them from living well, abandon them, even kill them or let them die when they want to live.
*To be Pro-Choice is to be neither Pro-Life nor Pro-Death: to impose neither Life nor Death on others, to exert no pressure on them ... but to leave them the choice, to respect their freedom. Give them all the cards in their hand to live well - while also giving them the means to die well.
*To act "by choice" is "not to act by constraint". To do something out of fear of the consequences if you don't do it is to do it under duress. For example, to live by choice is not to live for fear of dying, but to live because we consider it rational for us to live, and to die by choice is not to die for fear of death. live, but die because we consider it rational for us to die. Thus, it is only when others do everything they can so that I can "live well" (against Pro-Deaths) while also allowing me to "die well" when I decide (against Pro-Vie) that I can truly say to myself: "I have a choice between living and dying." Hence the ethical need for a universal income and a right to assisted suicide for all adults. Only the universal income makes it possible not to live as a slave and not to die for fear of living, only the right to assisted suicide makes it possible not to die while suffering and not to live for fear of dying.

 

[watchingthewheels]

UBI= a child's fantasy, a fairy tale, wishing that money just grew on trees.
UBI = socialism = slavery.

 

[Grave]

UBI= a child's fantasy, a fairy tale, wishing that money just grew on trees.
UBI = socialism = slavery.

How does having a universal basic income lead/equate to slavery may I ask?

 

[noname223]

I could not agree more with OP. I think absolutely the same.

 

[OceanBlue]

If some people still think it's a good idea to bring people into this world, they should agree that everyone is entitled to have their basic needs met with no additional conditions. If that's not possible somehow, then there's another reason not to create new people. Situations of starvation, homelessness, and forced labor should not exist.

 

[Bagger]

Ubi and freedom in one sentence? lol, i wish for real ubi too, but i know too well that it will be slavery for credits or whatever. Post anything that is not meant to be posted, say something that is forbidden to say, and u can kiss goodbye your ubi. Ubi will be for those who 100% comply.

 

[motel rooms]

There will be a basic income because in a decade or two there won't be any jobs left for the masses, but it will be conditional & not enough to pay for a life worth living

 

[charlotte greentea]

OP, I understand the appeal of UBI but I don't think UBI alone is adequate to ensure a good life for everyone. Oftentimes, UBI is a stealth way for libertarian types to cut funding to programs for the poor that help with housing and medical care to save the government money. A more complete system is needed to ensure a good standard of living. This means guarantees of adequate housing, healthcare, childcare if needed, robust transit. This could be accomplished in many ways, perhaps by putting prohibitive taxes on unoccupied homes in the case of housing. We could also institute a federal jobs guarantee to ensure everyone who wants a job can get one with a good pay and benefits, which would also push private business to improve working conditions or lead to cooperatives flourishing.
You've got a good basic idea though: we need to improve the material conditions of everyone while also making it permissible for those who want to exit life to do so. I imagine a great deal fewer people would commit suicide if their standards of living were adequate.

 

[whywere]

Universal basic income is not of fantasy BUT of reality. Look at sci-fi tv shows and movies where one's life is towards fulfillment of one's desires towards one's self AND humanity in general. Not in my life time BUT down the road, automation will, no matter, if one likes it or not make a lot of positions obsolete. Now that will give humans plenty of time and effort to help each other to make life even more fulfilling and progress humanity forward. All one has to do is close one's eyes to see it and that one MUST be able to look past a person's nose and into the future. Walter

 

[Makko]

UBI will make a final and absolute divide between the cattle and the herders.

 

[Futile]

UBI= a child's fantasy, a fairy tale, wishing that money just grew on trees.
UBI = socialism = slavery.

I agree but also I have no hope for society and no will to contribute to it so ubi would be nice for me

 

[watchingthewheels]

How does having a universal basic income lead/equate to slavery may I ask

 

[motel rooms]

UBI will make a final and absolute divide between the cattle and the herders.

Yeah, that hasn't happened already

 

[watchingthewheels]

The fact that you're asking ME is an indictment of the educational system, and a demonstration of Gramsci's "Long March Through The Institutions".

Short answer: UBI is NOT "progressives", it's NOT a new idea. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need", has NEVER worked, and is a age-old recipe for slavery, because it ALWAYS involves the initiation of force, forcibly making someone contribute to "the larger whole" for "the greater good", without choice. Hence, "universal"; "everyone in, nobody out." (That's why communist countries build walls to keep their slaves in, and why they try to escape to free countries, instead of people in free countries escaping to communist one...) And who will be "distributing the wealth" (or, "redistributing", to be accurate)? Who "decides" what's basic enough? And distributed "fairly"? And if someone objects, that they're not getting enough? Or complains that someone is getting MORE than they are? Recipe for disaster.

I can't answer that in a simple post, nor should I have to, when the whole of modern history is lesson enough. And I refuse to debate with communists/socialists on the matter, because I don't debate or negotiate with terrorists.

But if you're sincere, or simply too young to know better, because the schools have indoctrinated you, and are asking because you don't know: Look at the results of Soviet Russia and Communist China, for starter, and the death counts of Mao and Stalin, who murdered MORE people than Hitler (also a socialist, despite what the Communists would tell you; NAZI= "National Socialism"), including their OWN people. (And don't believe the bull of "that wasn't TRUE communism.") Look at the French Revolution, where the cry of "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" turned into the "Reign of Terror."

For a basic economics lesson of WHY UBI doesn't work: in a nutshell: becaues a country cannot consume more than it produces. Because money does not grow on trees. The arguments have been made long ago, and if you don't agree with them, well, then, you won't agree with me. But if you're not familiar with them, then, to start: I'll refer you to Ludwig von Mises' HUMAN ACTION, Henry Hazlitt's ECONOMICS IN ONE LESSON, and Ayn Rand's ATLAS SHRUGGED and CAPITALISM: THE UNKNOWN IDEAL, and the argument that in mixed capitalist/socialist economies, it's always capitalism that gets the blame for socialist failures. Look at the people lifted out of poverty through freedom and free markets, vs. the death counts of socialist countries, which promise equality, but only made people equal by cutting everyone down to the same size.

Long story short:
"TANSTAAFL". (Or, "There ain't no such thing as a "free lunch.")

 

[Makko]

Yeah, that hasn't happened already

Not formally. I enjoy a good officiality.

 

[watchingthewheels]

I agree but also I have no hope for society and no will to contribute to it so ubi would be nice for me

"'Come closer', said the spider to the fly..."

 

[motel rooms]

Not formally. I enjoy a good officiality.

Don't be so sure your job is safe from automation

 

[Makko]

Don't be so sure your job is safe from automation

I don't mind since I have capital. I think UBI would make society feel a lot different though. Although some people would enjoy being lazy, I think most people would get restless.

 

[watchingthewheels]

I don't mind since I have capital. I think UBI would make society feel a lot different though. Although some people would enjoy being lazy, I think most people would get restless.

And how long before those who are producing get tired of carrying the lazy?

 

[Makko]

And how long before those who are producing get tired of carrying the lazy?

I don't think this will be the problem. The social destabilization will come from the fact that too many people will have too much free time on their hands.

 

[watchingthewheels]

I don't think this will be the problem. The social destabilization will come from the fact that too many people will have too much free time on their hands.

Oh, it will be both.

 

[motel rooms]

I don't think this will be the problem. The social destabilization will come from the fact that too many people will have too much free time on their hands.

The elites won't give a shit about social destabilization or climate change. They will no longer need wage slaves

 

[Makko]

The elites won't give a shit about social destabilization or climate change. They will no longer need wage slaves

They'll still need wageslaves, just more skilled and specialised ones. Machines are nowhere near advanced enough to make human judgement obsolete.

 

[motel rooms]

They'll still need wageslaves, just more skilled and specialised ones. Machines are nowhere near advanced enough to make human judgement obsolete.

Give it a couple of decades. They'll need a negligible number of wage slaves

 

[charlotte greentea]

The functional difference between the disaster world where the government controls me through UBI and the one I live in now is that I have to work hard to be controlled so if you're against UBI for that reason you might be a crank

 

[Lost Magic]

UBI will be needed more than ever soon because automation and rising unemployment is rampant.

 

[Fragile]

I can't believe that 2020 went by and some people are still supporting practices that will give governments way more control over their lives and the lives of others.

Nothing is free, and with bullshit like UBI and other socialist practices you are paying with your own freedom.

 

[Pure]

Nothing is free, and with bullshit like UBI and other socialist practices you are paying with your own freedom.

I mean...not really. Test runs of UBI in smaller populations show that people become happier with UBI because it's amazing what happens when you don't have to be a wage slave anymore. Better social nets leads to a better and happier population.

 

[Fragile]

Test runs

smaller populations

Yeah, no shit people will get happier with free money. That's completely beside the point.

But it's not about theoretical happiness, it's about reality and who do we trust to give us that money. And money doesn't grow in trees, someone has to pay for this kind of utopic stuff. Maybe you live in an extremely transparent and benevolent country, but for the rest of the world (even in very powerful countries) it would mean dealing with an enormous amount of corruption and restrictions.

And those little test runs don't tell us what will happen when an actual country implements these measurements. There are a lot of variables and chaos involved when it comes to reality, there are practical challenges that will make this even dangerous for an economy of any size.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Universal income is the future. There is no doubt about it. It is just a matter of time. It will happen sooner or later. Thats when real human freedom will truly be achieved. Mark my worss