Help To live - Inherently to be evil? Self-immolation as a protest agains evolution.

[Sanguinius]

Hey...

It hurts me to kill other beings. I can't endure this pain anymore.
I see that everything in the world and our lives obeys the rules of Darwin's theory of evolution. I don't want to support it because I don't think it's fair. Everyone should have the same right to live, it doesn't matter which species it is. But if I stay alive, I support it.
I don't want to support this system.
The sacrifice wich other beings (even if they are only beetles) have to pay for my life is too high.
But deep in my heart I know that I don't want to die. I want to live... But not with these conditions. Not with this pain, not with these sacrifices.

What should I do?

I've got the bug. The thought of (public) self-immolation as a protest agains life and evolution doesn't release me anymore. I know it's insane, but I can't stop thinking about it...

 

[hunter_lewis]

Hey...

It hurts me to kill other beings. I can't endure this pain anymore.
I see that everything in the world and our lives obeys the rules of Darwin's theory of evolution. I don't want to support it because I don't think it's fair. Everyone should have the same right to live, it doesn't matter which species it is. But if I stay alive, I support it.
I don't want to support this system.
The sacrifice wich other beings (even if they are only beetles) have to pay for my life is too high.
But deep in my heart I know that I don't want to die. I want to live... But not with these conditions. Not with this pain, not with these sacrifices.

What should I do?

I've got the bug. The thought of (public) self-immolation as a protest agains life and evolution doesn't release me anymore. I know it's insane, but I can't stop thinking about it...

it will be very painful, they will 'save' you and it won't change a damn thing.
It you really want to change society, get involved in societies that protect animals, give to the homeless etc.

 

[OfficerK]

it will be very painful, they will 'save' you and it won't change a damn thing.
It you really want to change society, get involved in societies that protect animals, give to the homeless etc.

I agree.

Devote your life to reducing other people's consumption of meat and other products that are harmful to animals. Presuming that the methods you use are effective, your efforts will probably outweigh the harm to other animals that is necessary in order to sustain yourself.

 

[Justanotherconsumer]

 

[Rollo]

Hey...

It hurts me to kill other beings. I can't endure this pain anymore.
I see that everything in the world and our lives obeys the rules of Darwin's theory of evolution. I don't want to support it because I don't think it's fair. Everyone should have the same right to live, it doesn't matter which species it is. But if I stay alive, I support it.
I don't want to support this system.
The sacrifice wich other beings (even if they are only beetles) have to pay for my life is too high.
But deep in my heart I know that I don't want to die. I want to live... But not with these conditions. Not with this pain, not with these sacrifices.

What should I do?

I've got the bug. The thought of (public) self-immolation as a protest agains life and evolution doesn't release me anymore. I know it's insane, but I can't stop thinking about it...

See 'right' is in the eye of beholder. I agree with you that everyone has the same right to live and I don't agree with the prevailing sentiment that insect life is worthless, animal life is kinda worthy while human life is the most sacred and awesome thing ever.

Still you already figured the conditions. There really is only one condition and this condition is unchangeable - that sacrifice is going to be made either way. Either sacrifice will be on your part, or on other beings part. Either you kill a mosquito or you suffer from bites. Although sometimes (like in your house) instead of killing mosquito you can capture him and then realease him into the wild. But here you will sacrifice your effort still.

I believe that longing for self-sacrifice in the name of well-being of others is integral into every human. I know that I don't want to exist without it. But at the same time it doesn't define me, I define it. I define it's extent and content, and thus I define in which cases others will be sacrificed for my needs.

Ultimately you self-sacrifice cause you feel sorry for others (empathy, compassion etc all are different names for the same longing) when they are in pain. But your mind here plays trick on you. That pain that you're feeling is not theirs - it's yours. It's this special kind of pain which goes with being altruistic. And it's this pain, this suffering, that you now have problem with. But since it exists as a response to others suffering - your mind objectifies it, as if it exists outside, in the very bones of animal who is being torn apart.

And this is not reality. Reality is it's your feeling and your a master of it no matter how unpleasant it may sound. So either you let the feeling kill you or you take it under control.

 

[gingerplum]

Hey...

It hurts me to kill other beings. I can't endure this pain anymore.
I see that everything in the world and our lives obeys the rules of Darwin's theory of evolution. I don't want to support it because I don't think it's fair. Everyone should have the same right to live, it doesn't matter which species it is. But if I stay alive, I support it.
I don't want to support this system.
The sacrifice wich other beings (even if they are only beetles) have to pay for my life is too high.
But deep in my heart I know that I don't want to die. I want to live... But not with these conditions. Not with this pain, not with these sacrifices.

What should I do?

I've got the bug. The thought of (public) self-immolation as a protest agains life and evolution doesn't release me anymore. I know it's insane, but I can't stop thinking about it...

Let me stop you. This is, in my humble opinion, the most horrific and excruciating way to die, by far. I don't even think there's a close second, and I once saw a patient ejected from a car and impaled on a tree branch in his abdomen.

I used to do chart review in a burn ICU, so I know a thing or three about burns. Go hold your hand over a cooktop burner on high heat. Imagine that pain all over your body, but 1000 times more intense... eyes and genitals included. Depending on what accelerant you use, your skin will cook down to the fascia, your extremities will contract as the skin tightens (like a chicken breast cooks) but you may live for some very long minutes until the extreme heat cooks your lungs from the outside.

Are you old enough to remember the people who jumped from the World Trade Center? They happily jumped hundreds of feet to their deaths to escape the extreme heat, and they hadn't caught on fire yet.

You wanna make a social statement? Learn about seppuku and disembowel yourself in the time-honored Japanese tradition. Much, much more pleasant than burning alive.

Yes, I'm being glib. Don't set yourself on fucking fire.

 

[WhoStevik]

If you can deal with the agonizant pain, go ahead. I would if I could!

 

[Sanguinius]

Thank you for your answers!

Let me stop you. This is, in my humble opinion, the most horrific and excruciating way to die, by far. I don't even think there's a close second, and I once saw a patient ejected from a car and impaled on a tree branch in his abdomen.
ss
I used to do chart review in a burn ICU, so I know a thing or three about burns. Go hold your hand over a cooktop burner on high heat. Imagine that pain all over your body, but 1000 times more intense... eyes and genitals included. Depending on what accelerant you use, your skin will cook down to the fascia, your extremities will contract as the skin tightens (like a chicken breast cooks) but you may live for some very long minutes until the extreme heat cooks your lungs from the outside.

Are you old enough to remember the people who jumped from the World Trade Center? They happily jumped hundreds of feet to their deaths to escape the extreme heat, and they hadn't caught on fire yet.

You wanna make a social statement? Learn about seppuku and disembowel yourself in the time-honored Japanese tradition. Much, much more pleasant than burning alive.

Yes, I'm being glib. Don't set yourself on fucking fire.

I know. I don't want to burn myself... But the thought of it don't leave me anymore. It is somehow stuck in my head.
Does anyone know how to get rid of it?

@Rollo

But if every life has the same worth, the utilitaristic way would be suicide, because you are one being and you kill thousands of bugs (beetles, Worms, bacteries...).

I think you're right with the pain... Do you know how to shed the pain without loosing my sensitivity?
I don't have enough power to fight against it...

 

[gingerplum]

Thank you for your answer!

Are you on any psychotropic meds? Racing/obsessive thoughts can often be improved or even stopped with the right medications.


I know. I don't want to burn myself... But the thought of it don't leave me anymore. It is somehow stuck in my head.
Does anyone know how to get rid of it?

@Rollo

But if every life has the same worth, the utilitaristic way would be suicide, because you are one being and you kill thousands of bugs (beetles, Worms, bacteries...).

I think you're right with the pain... Do you know how to shed the pain without loosing my sensitivity?
I don't have enough power to fight against it...

 

[Rollo]

But if every life has the same worth, the utilitaristic way would be suicide, because you are one being and you kill thousands of bugs (beetles, Worms, bacteries...).

I think you're right with the pain... Do you know how to shed the pain without loosing my sensitivity?
I don't have enough power to fight against it...

"Worth" and "utility" only have subjective meaning. Meaning worth and utility to you or me or somebody else. Maybe I wasn't entirely correct when I said I believe everyone has the same right to live. I do believe it in the sense that I don't look down on any being, don't despise anyone. At the same time I do believe in priorities. And the most notable priority is priority of my well-being over well-being of others. Like I said since compassion is my longing, so I'm a master of it and I will set it's extent and content.

For example when I walk the streets I often look down on the ground and if I see an insect then I will avoid stepping on him. So here I sacrifice my effort, my well-being. At the same time if I want to look elsewhere, just to enjoy the enviroment - I will. Even though I know that not looking at the ground will mean me stepping on some insects. So here I sacrifice their well-being.

The only way to shed the pain is to accept that you're a master of it, not a slave to it. That this feeling is not the most important thing in the universe. That you have an inherent right to put your well-being over well-being of others and to choose when it will be thus. Also that you have a right to prioritise among others either. Like when it's between a bug being killed or your wife being killed, you're free to set priority between two compassions. Although in this case your own well-being will be involved too cause your wife is a source of joy to you.

You won't lose your sensitivity and thus you can't entirely shed the pain either. But you can become a master of it and to me it's the right thing to do.

 

[weedoge]

I agree.

Devote your life to reducing other people's consumption of meat and other products that are harmful to animals. Presuming that the methods you use are effective, your efforts will probably outweigh the harm to other animals that is necessary in order to sustain yourself.

Unfortunately I think as much as many of us here would love to change the world for the better, at least personally I find it hard to justify living for even that between how shit it would be for me and the fact that, in the vein of OP, I would likely not even offset the suffering that my mere existence causes.

 

[gingerplum]

Unfortunately I think as much as many of us here would love to change the world for the better, at least personally I find it hard to justify living for even that between how shit it would be for me and the fact that, in the vein of OP, I would likely not even offset the suffering that my mere existence causes.

I think we all help each other in this forum, and I'd like to think that changes the world for the better, a tiny bit, in its own way.

 

[weedoge]

I think we all help each other in this forum, and I'd like to think that changes the world for the better, a tiny bit, in its own way.

Maybe a tiny bit, but its not enough and nothing is ever enough :(

 

[gingerplum]

Maybe a tiny bit, but its not enough and nothing is ever enough :(

Spoken like a true nihilist. I respect that.

 

[Mr2005]

Hey...

It hurts me to kill other beings. I can't endure this pain anymore.
I see that everything in the world and our lives obeys the rules of Darwin's theory of evolution. I don't want to support it because I don't think it's fair. Everyone should have the same right to live, it doesn't matter which species it is. But if I stay alive, I support it.
I don't want to support this system.
The sacrifice wich other beings (even if they are only beetles) have to pay for my life is too high.
But deep in my heart I know that I don't want to die. I want to live... But not with these conditions. Not with this pain, not with these sacrifices.

What should I do?

I've got the bug. The thought of (public) self-immolation as a protest agains life and evolution doesn't release me anymore. I know it's insane, but I can't stop thinking about it...

There are some bad things about life built into it from the start, at least bad from what we know now but surely that's the point, we're supposed to be self aware so everything's a choice

 

[Sanguinius]

Maybe a tiny bit, but its not enough and nothing is ever enough :(

Thats exactly how I see it. I'm not a nihilist, but I think, there are things fundamental wrong (wrong = incongruous with my/our/the christian values) and everyone who lives supports it. I think there are two ways to deal with it:
1) change your values.
2) change the fact that you're living.

 

[weedoge]

Spoken like a true nihilist. I respect that.

I appreciate that you respect it <3

 

[Jodes]

Its a scary position,

Thoughts :
- Find acceptance people's nature to give you peace, (my inner hippie)
- meds for severe anxiety (e.g. high dose of pregabalin, plus perhaps a dalmjng anypsychotic, seroquel was good for me, but they're incompatible sadly)
- talk about it as you are

 

[OfficerK]

Unfortunately I think as much as many of us here would love to change the world for the better, at least personally I find it hard to justify living for even that between how shit it would be for me and the fact that, in the vein of OP, I would likely not even offset the suffering that my mere existence causes.

Most of us, including myself, sure. I do think there are human beings out there that have a positive impact on the world that outweighs the harm that is inherent to existing. You're probably right that this is not something that most people will ever be able to achieve without sacrificing their own well-being, but to me it seems like OP values altruism enough to make such an existence possible. Only they can say for sure, though.

 

[weedoge]

Most of us, including myself, sure. I do think there are human beings out there that have a positive impact on the world that outweighs the harm that is inherent to existing. You're probably right that this is not something that most people will ever be able to achieve without sacrificing their own well-being, but to me it seems like OP values altruism enough to make such an existence possible. Only they can say for sure, though.

I don't know. You can have altruistic ideas but I think the desire to act on them is directly related to how comfortable you are in your own life. To be honest I'm not sure any individual can outweigh the negativity of their existence, people coming together is the easiest way for that to truly happen I think.

 

[OfficerK]

I don't know. You can have altruistic ideas but I think the desire to act on them is directly related to how comfortable you are in your own life. To be honest I'm not sure any individual can outweigh the negativity of their existence, people coming together is the easiest way for that to truly happen I think.

I think there are people who have such a strong sense of empathy that they derive both displeasure and pleasure from the mental states of other people.

That being said, I probably agree that life is inherently suffering, and that it may well be impossible to live a life that I would consider to be 'good', that is, a hedonistically good life. I was arguing from the point of view of someone whose standards are a bit more lenient that mine, or that don't put as much emphasis on hedonism as I do.

 

[Xerxes]

I can change the world for the better by removing myself from it. One less person to worry about, to consume resources, to muddle in people's affairs, etc.

 

[gingerplum]

I think there are people who have such a strong sense of empathy that they derive both displeasure and pleasure from the mental states of other people.

That being said, I probably agree that life is inherently suffering, and that it may well be impossible to live a life that I would consider to be 'good', that is, a hedonistically good life. I was arguing from the point of view of someone whose standards are a bit more lenient that mine, or that don't put as much emphasis on hedonism as I do.

One can't be hedonistic and intrinsically good?

 

[OfficerK]

One can't be hedonistic and intrinsically good?

Would you mind elaborating?

 

[Rollo]

Thats exactly how I see it. I'm not a nihilist, but I think, there are things fundamental wrong (wrong = incongruous with my/our/the christian values) and everyone who lives supports it. I think there are two ways to deal with it:
1) change your values.
2) change the fact that you're living.

I don't believe it's actually your alternatives. Assuming your values are such that it's not ok to ever put your interests above those of any other being, then your choices are

1. change your values
2. implement your values

Ofcourse there's also 3rd choice, which majority of people go by, which is to not implement their values but to strongly think that you do. Like to believe that those bugs are not alive or are better off being squashed by you etc. But I assume you want to be consistent.

It's just you assume that killing yourself would be the logical implementation of your values. But it won't. It's possible for you to exist as a pure benefit of everyone else. You can always watch the ground as you go. Suffer from insect bites. Be vegan. Spend your money on the most inexpensive food just to keep you alive and the rest on charity. And devote all your free time on some other forms of helping.

Ofcourse your life will be pretty torturous but it's the price you will pay for benefitting others. Personally I do not believe it's the right thing to do. But I do believe that doing the right thing trumps everything else inculding comfort. So if I was sticking by the belief that total self-sacrifice is the right thing to do, then it would have been my only option.

 

[Sanguinius]

devote

I don't believe it's actually your alternatives. Assuming your values are such that it's not ok to ever put your interests above those of any other being, then your choices are

1. change your values
2. implement your values

Okay, I agree. But to live is always to sacrifice other lifes.

I
It's just you assume that killing yourself would be the logical implementation of your values. But it won't. It's possible for you to exist as a pure benefit of everyone else. You can always watch the ground as you go. Suffer from insect bites. Be vegan. Spend your money on the most inexpensive food just to keep you alive and the rest on charity. And devote all your free time on some other forms of helping.

Hmm... But: what's about bacteria? I will support evolution, no matter what I do. Even if I would kill myself I would kill some bacteria which live in my body... But it would be the smaller sacrifice...
And that hurts me. What could I do to make it stop? I need a solution. A fast solution.

I But I do believe that doing the right thing trumps everything else inculding comfort. So if I was sticking by the belief that total self-sacrifice is the right thing to do, then it would have been my only option.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it to me?

Btw, thank you for answering my questions...

 

[Rollo]

Hmm... But: what's about bacteria? I will support evolution, no matter what I do. Even if I would kill myself I would kill some bacteria which live in my body... But it would be the smaller sacrifice...
And that hurts me. What could I do to make it stop? I need a solution. A fast solution.

I assume you mean bacteria that is killed by your body's immune system. You can also count all the mites invisible to the naked that you will neccessarily squash just by walking. You see even with this in mind you killing yourself still won't be a best solution from this self-sacrificial point of view.

Because you can always devote your life to say killing big animals in the woods. Cause even one deer alive will squash as many mites as you will, and this deer's body immune system will kill as many bacteria too. So if you kill 2 deers than you already made a bigger contribution than by just killing yourself. Mind you I'm not encouraging you to go kill deers for that reason, but I'm saying you can't get away from the fact that suicide won't be the best logical decision here.

I don't understand what you mean. Can you explain it to me?

Btw, thank you for answering my questions...

You're welcome. I don't believe that putting interests of others above your own interests is necessarily the right thing to do. I believe that there's certain ideological structure between these two basic choices - to put yourself first or to put somebody else first - that is the right thing to do. But this natural non-compulsive ideology can be perverted.

It can be perverted in the direction of you putting yourself first where naturally you would put somebody else first. Simply because it's more comfortable and/or because you were pressured into such a disregard for compassion. And this perversion to me is the less self-destructive one.

The more self-destructive one though is the opposite - where you would put somebody else first where naturally you would put yourself first. So here you're pressured into high regard for compassion. This perversion can't just happen out of pure comfort - cause it's actually less comfortable, it's self-sacrifice. But in the end it emerges out of comfort as well cause it happens when people use comfort to pressure you into it, deliberately or not. Like when a mother screams at her child that he's being bad and/or she hits him. It's an insane amount of discomfort for a small child to realise that his loving mother is gone, he is being rejected, hated, intimidated or plain assaulted and basically tortured. And so he assumes this intrusive ideology that alters his natural one, just to get out of hell. And same way it works with adults.

 

[gingerplum]

Would you mind elaborating?

Sorry, I think I misread your post, in my mind inferring you said being good and hedonistic were mutually exclusive. I'm a little unfocused lately, methinks.

 

[Sanguinius]

@Rollo
I think you're right.

I think I'm just searching a legitimisation for suicide.

But why am I suicidal? I have no reason - except the pain which comes from the fact that there's always a sacrifice which someone has to pay I think...
Or... Probably it comes from, what you said as an example, my mother which has screamed at me and hurted me when I was a small child... Hmm...

 

[Rollo]

But why am I suicidal? I have no reason - except the pain which comes from the fact that there's always a sacrifice which someone has to pay I think...

Obviously cause you want to escape this torture. Once a long time ago I remember thinking I wish all those whom I care about would finally die so that I could have some ease. It's this fine point where altruism molds into egoism.

The reality is you don't have to feel bad, to feel painful, for others suffering. At all. This pain is a lie. And this lie is being caused and imposed by society. When I said you can't shed the pain entirely, what I meant is that it's naturally impossible for you to like somebody and then when this somebody dies or in pain, to be entirely comfortable. Even if you dont have any ideology that demands you to feel bad, to not laugh etc. Laugh and feel good all you want if it's actually possible.

But no matter wha's possible there's such ideology imposed by society. When you're expected say to display sadness at funeral or just whenether something happens where others expect you to be sad. So now you feel poisoned and naturally want to escape it. So from this point of reference you do have two choices that you listed - either suicide or start to look in the direction of changing your ideology, your values.