Thoughts about incel shooters?

[pyx]

pretty much as disgusting as any mass shooter can be

 

[mrpeter]

Maybe not a California sorority surfer blonde girl, but definitely an Asian girl. In places like Southeast Asia, half-white half-Asians have automatic status (both men and women), due to the history of idiotic racism. But Elliot Rodger was obsessed with the blonde college type girl only. What he didn't get is that being only half-white gave him lower status than pure whites, but higher than Desi men, black men, full Asian men. So he could attack the latter (he first started his killing spree by murdering his male Asian dorm mates with a knife while they slept). He aimed too high by obsessing over blonde surfer type white girls, who would have rejected him more on average, due to racism. He knew that deep down without even trying to approach them. Yes, make no mistake about it, American women also have racism ingrained in them. California has a deep history of racism. Police profiling continued heavily until the early 2000s. So the Isla Vista killing spree was racially motivated. Nobody even mentions that. Mass shootings are a uniquely American thing and in all cases racially motivated. It's only after decades of media attention, that other countries are seeing copy cats (but those are often very pathetic attempts).

Elliot Roger killed his asian roomates, because they would be witnesses to a crime. He wanted to kidnap and torture people, but that plan failed.

Also Elliot roger looks fully white even if hes half asian.

 

[mrpeter]

Quotes from Elliot Rodger:

"Full Asian men are disgustingly ugly and white girls would never go for you. You're just butthurt that you were born as an asian piece of shit, so you lash out by linking these fake pictures. You even admit that you wish you were half white. You'll never be half-white and you'll never fulfill your dream of marrying a white woman. I suggest you jump off a bridge."

"How could an inferior, ugly black boy be able to get a white girl and not me? I am beautiful, and I am half white myself. I am descended from British aristocracy. He is descended from slaves. I deserve it more."

"I came across this Asian guy who was talking to a white girl. The sight of that filled me with rage."

"white girls are the only girls I'm attracted to, especially the blondes."

How can people not see it was a racially motivated mass killing (like all American killing sprees)?

it was mostly his hatred against women and chads, yeah he was racist, but the wasn't the reason for what he did. He only killed his roomates because they got in his way.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-advances/article/incels-violence-and-mental-disorder-a-narrative-review-with-recommendations-for-best-practice-in-risk-assessment-and-clinical-intervention/6A934637D21AEE4C1D90FAF5FB63D769

One is the loneliest number: Involuntary celibacy (incel), mental health, and loneliness - PMC

Incels—a ragtag collection of young males who have rallied around their shared experience of romantic rejection—have slowly emerged as an online group of interest to researchers, no doubt as a result of several high-profile attacks. Much of this ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I dont think it is incidental in this specific hate group... and I dont understand your point. Are you saying we should not try to deradicalize them and provide mental health care, even if they aren't mentally ill?
...Im not here to say either way I guess. I think bad people can be saved.

First off, the article you cited cites studies that also look at self-diagnoses, not just formal diagnoses. This is an issue since self-diagnoses aren't always accurate and they can widely skew the results. For example:

a recent survey indicated that 18% of incels have a formal diagnosis of autism (more than double the rate among the general population; Moskalenko et al., 2022). This was dwarfed by the 74% who were self-diagnosed with autism

Indeed, 95% of incels surveyed through incels.co reported having depression (38% had a formal diagnosis; Moskalenko et al., 2022).

95% of incels may report having depression, but who is to say whether or not what they are experiencing are true symptoms of depression or not just some other type of mental illness or that those supposed symptoms have other causes outside of mental illness? Who is to say that they may not have misinterpreted some of the symptoms that led them to this conclusion?

Secondly, the study doesn't specifically focus on the connection between mass shootings/murders committed by incels and mental illness.

Thus, the aim of this study is to identify whether incels do indeed have lower levels of social support and whether that is uniquely predictive of incel identity. Similarly, social support's role as a predictor of incel status will be tested.

As noted in my other post, the evidence we have on mass shootings and murders and mental illness, in general, do not support the notion that mental illness is heavily linked with these crimes, with issues pertaining to non-psychotic mental illnesses being incidental rather than a major factor. This particular study doesn't seem to specifically look at the connection between mental illness amongst incels and acts of mass violence.

Also, this study uses a small sample size:

The present study thus sought to examine the role of social support and loneliness in experiences of rejection in a sample of incel (n = 67) and non-incel (n = 103) men.

This study also mainly used undergrads partaking in SONA (meaning that most of the participants are first-year psych students) a university-wide forum, and users from the subreddits r/virgin and r/antifeminist. Most of these participants were of European ancestry. This mixed in with the study's small sample size, calls into question the generalizability of the results. For example, the uni students served as a comparison to the incels, which is an issue since they may not be a good representative of the general non-incel population. On the topic of the generalizability of the results in reference to the incels:

While all incels self-identified as such, they were recruited through incel-adjacent subreddits. Attempts to recruit from some subreddits were forbidden by moderators, as was a request to advertise the study on incels.co. While the results of the present study were consistent with Sparks et al. (2022), which was able to recruit from incel-specific subreddits, it does limit the potential generalizability of the results.

Now, going into the other article, there are also a few things to note.

First off, while the article reports that 28% of incels reported having symptoms of PTSD, the study they cited states:

It was unclear if the trauma causing the reported posttraumatic stress predated their inceldom or if their PTSD related to their overwhelming
sense of sexual rejection and inability to partner with a woman.

This study they cited also relied on self-reports rather than on formal diagnoses of symptoms. As the main article notes, there is an issue with there being a heavy reliance on data from things, such as self-reports, and theoretical.

Understanding the associations between inceldom and mental disorder is limited by the lack of valid psychiatric assessments used to establish diagnoses. Current literature is theoretical or based on online self-report surveys, media or analyses of forum content by non-incels, who may misinterpret the nuances of incel language.

A lot of additional research is also cited as being needed through a good chunk of the article. The limitations section even notes the need for additional research, especially for certain psychiatric illnesses:

More research is needed to understand the contributions of psychosis, personality disorder, substance misuse, ADHD and intellectual disability to incel violence.

While the article does note that disorders, such as depression and autism, may increase the likelihood of incels' extreme overvalued beliefs, they aren't the main driving force behind the acts of violence:

Although depression, autism and personality disorder are not associated with violence themselves, they may accelerate or produce a vulnerability to extreme overvalued beliefs, which refine over time and become increasingly difficult to challenge

To add onto this, in reference to your other point about mental health services, only 6% of incels who reported going to therapy found it to be beneficial and a lot of incels also reported having a lot of mistrust towards therapeutic interventions:

However, engaging incels with therapeutic interventions remains a challenge owing to a general mistrust of the mental health system among incels (Speckhard Reference Speckhard, Ellenberg and Morton2021). Despite the clear link between inceldom and depression, only half of the 272 incels responding to an online survey reported ever trying therapy; 15 (6%) reported finding it beneficial.

Anyway, the main point that I was making in my original post is that we shouldn't be too quick to blame these acts of violence on mental illness, especially since we already know that it isn't a large factor in acts of mass shootings/murders. Nowhere did I imply that we should provide them with mental healthcare. I explicitly stated

Providing mental health services is important

I was just stating that we shouldn't be quick to blame this on mental illness, especially when we already know that mental illness generally isn't a large factor in acts of mass shootings/murders and that it typically tends to be incidental, rather than one of the main causes.

 

[3/4Dead]

scum, just like any other mass murderers. nobody deserves to go down with you over yoour personal issues

 

[eeah]

they should just shoot themselves instead of other ppl

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Honestly if Elliot Rogers parents didn't suck and stayed together I don't think he would have become a misogynist and committed a mass shooting

Are you seriously blaming his parents divorcing for him being a misogynist and committing mass murder? I'm pretty sure that divorce generally isn't a driving factor in people deciding to do those things...

 

[Downdraft]

To the gallows, I say!

 

[yellowjester]

Yeah, let's have a discussion about wether it's good to kill innocent people because you can't get laid. Totally normal question to ask.

 

[sancta-simplicitas]

Obviously I detest murderers and misogynists as much as the next guy. That really isn't debatable, very few people would actively approve of it. Even less people would seriously actively approve of it.

That being said, I do feel bad for them and I can see how these communities grow. They're basically dealing with disengranchised grief. Society is and has historically been quite nasty to lonely people. We tend to think of them as weird, creepy, generally somehow wrong just because they're lonely. Most of us - me included - cannot fully comprehend the hardships of not being able to form meaningful connections. Lonely people often get their hurt dismissed by being told things like "just put yourself out there", "sex is no big deal anyways" (Personally I'm guilty of that, it took me a while to stop being an asshole in that regard), "get a hobby" , "see a therapist" etc. Of fucking course a lot of them are going to seek out these forums, they're places where they actually can get a sense of connection. And group dynamics are vicious. If you spend enough time in a hateful echo chamber, you're eventually going to mirror it. Especially young people are vulnerable to it.

I do think, to be able to combat this problem, it's up to us as a society to let them in and model healthy behaviors. The problem is that most humans are assholes - not murderous asshole but likewise assholes - thus unable to.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Same as my view on terrorists. What happened to them to make them that angry and lash out? What should we be doing to prevent extremism?

None the less, it doesn't excuse it. Even a crime of passion probably isn't right but, I can at least get my head around that. An individual severely hurts you or a loved one and you are so angry or afraid in the moment that you fight back. This though is presumably randomly killing a 'type' of person- women because one or more women upset you at some point. It's far more cold blooded. It's like- a dog bites you. So- you want to eradicate all dogs.

I'm not sure what can be done about the more extreme cases though. I think at least some of them bear a grudge so bitter against women that it could become violent. Yet, they expect women to pitty and love them. Why would they pitty and love someone who feels so resentful towards them? That could potentially harm them?!! That's the bit I really don't understand. Why can't they see that it could well be that, that women find unattractive- even frightening? Still- I wouldn't wish them dead! I just hope they change their attitudes and people are kinder to them.

 

[mrpeter]

Are you seriously blaming his parents divorcing for him being a misogynist and committing mass murder? I'm pretty sure that divorce generally isn't a driving factor in people deciding to do those things...

It made his mental health worse, divorce can have a very negative effect on children. I don't think he would have gone such a bad path if he had a better childhood.

It made his mental health worse, divorce can have a very negative effect on children. I don't think he would have gone such a bad path if he had a better childhood.

eliot rogers parents divorce had a major effect on his mental health as mentioned in his manifesto

 

[EvisceratedJester]

It made his mental health worse, divorce can have a very negative effect on children. I don't think he would have gone such a bad path if he had a better childhood.

Divorce doesn't cause one to literally commit mass murder. Along with that, Elliot came from a very privileged background (e.g. his family was well-off financially), so the typical confounding factors that tend to worsen issues that may arise from divorce would have been lessened. Most children of divorce do not go on to become violent misogynists, and this includes those coming from much worse backgrounds in comparison to Elliot.

 

[mrpeter]

Divorce doesn't cause one to literally commit mass murder. Along with that, Elliot came from a very privileged background (e.g. his family was well-off financially), so the typical confounding factors that tend to worsen issues that may arise from divorce would have been lessened. Most children of divorce do not go on to become violent misogynists, and this includes those coming from much worse backgrounds in comparison to Elliot.

Eliot Roger hated his dad because he wasted all his money on a movie that failed.
I think this and the fact his parents divorced caused him to go on a dark path. He originally planned on kill his step mom, who disowned him when he was 18, and his bitch father did nothing about it.

I think the main problem is his dad neglected, even though he knew he had mental problems and was a misogynist, then acts all surprised his son committed a mass shooting, when he himself could have prevented it if he was a better dad and was there for his son.

"My father's movie was released, but it did not do well at all. He was only able to get it released in a
few select theatres, and no one was interested in seeing it. He stupidly invested all of his money into the
movie, and he got absolutely nothing out of it.

This caused him to fall into a financial crisis that he will
be stuck in for a long time. was annoyed that he kept having to make it clear to us that he was now in a
"financial crisis". He talked about it all the time, and it was embarrassing.

What a bitter coincidence, that right at the point when my life fell even deeper into agony, my father
is cursed with this financial crisis. Right at the time when I needed my father's support the most, he lost
all of his assets. It was as if some malevolent being cursed me with bad luck. I truly had no advantage at
all. The universe was not kind to me."

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Eliot Roger hated his dad because he wasted all his money on a movie that failed.
I think this and the fact his parents divorced caused him to go on a dark path. He originally planned on kill his step mom, who disowned him when he was 18, and his bitch father did nothing about it.

"My father's movie was released, but it did not do well at all. He was only able to get it released in a
few select theatres, and no one was interested in seeing it. He stupidly invested all of his money into the
movie, and he got absolutely nothing out of it.

This caused him to fall into a financial crisis that he will
be stuck in for a long time. was annoyed that he kept having to make it clear to us that he was now in a
"financial crisis". He talked about it all the time, and it was embarrassing.

What a bitter coincidence, that right at the point when my life fell even deeper into agony, my father
is cursed with this financial crisis. Right at the time when I needed my father's support the most, he lost
all of his assets. It was as if some malevolent being cursed me with bad luck. I truly had no advantage at
all. The universe was not kind to me."

Somebody blaming their problems on something doesn't equate to that being the main cause. How do you know he isn't just using this to excuse his actions?

Also, sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I'm high on weed right now, lol.

 

[mrpeter]

Somebody blaming their problems on something doesn't equate to that being the main cause. How do you know he isn't just using this to excuse his actions?

Also, sorry if this doesn't make any sense. I'm high on weed right now, lol.

I'm saying that I don't think misogyny is the only issue. Also why would Eliot use that as an excuse for his actions? Its pretty obvious his parents had a major negative effect on his mental health. I don't think he would have became homicidal if his dad was there for him.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

I'm saying that I don't think misogyny is the only issue. Also why would Eliot use that as an excuse for his actions? Its pretty obvious his parents had a major negative effect on his mental health. I don't think he would have became homicidal if his dad was there for him.

Plenty of people have daddy issues and don't commit acts of mass murders. It feels like you just want to excuse his actions and put the blame on someone or something else.

 

[mrpeter]

Plenty of people have daddy issues and don't commit acts of mass murders. It feels like you just want to excuse his actions and put the blame on someone or something else.

I'm not wtf. Hes a shit person regardless of his reason. Most people commit mass shootings for a reason not just for fun lol.

Plenty of people have daddy issues and don't commit acts of mass murders. It feels like you just want to excuse his actions and put the blame on someone or something else.

Obviously most people don't do that, but many people who are mentally ill commit violent crime. Eliot Roger was mentally ill he had depression and a hatred for the world.

I'm not wtf. Hes a shit person regardless of his reason. Most people commit mass shootings for a reason not just for fun lol.

Obviously most people don't do that, but many people who are mentally ill commit violent crime. Eliot Roger was mentally ill he had depression and a hatred for the world.

Most people who are misogynist don't commit mass shootings technically, I think it was this and also the fact he had issues with his parents that led him to be this way. It's mainly just a mental health problem, and yes misogyny is part of the problem as well.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

Obviously most people don't do that, but many people who are mentally ill commit violent crime. Eliot Roger was mentally ill he had depression and a hatred for the world.

^

Mental health issues are generally not considered to be a large factor in things, like mass shootings. 5% of shootings are related to severe mental illnesses while 25% of mass shootings are related to non-psychotic mental illnesses, however, this is incidental. The contribution of mental illness to mass shootings has been on the decrease. Things, such as nihilism, feelings of emptiness, anger, and a desire for notoriety seem to be larger factors in mass shootings. These factors seem to, at least from what I've observed, also heavily intersect with incel ideology.

I just felt the need to specify this, because a lot of people are quick to blame mental illness, especially when it comes to crimes that are viewed as being predominantly committed by white people (around 57% of mass shootings are committed by white people). Oh, and before anyone gets on my ass for mentioning this:


While providing mental health services is important, we shouldn't treat mental illness as the main cause, let alone an excuse for this behaviour. Most mass shootings and mass murders are committed by people who aren't mentally ill.

Most people who are misogynist don't commit mass shootings technically, I think it was this and also the fact he had issues with his parents that led him to be this way. It's mainly just a mental health problem, and yes misogyny is part of the problem as well.

Mental health problems are not thought to be a major factor in mass shootings.

 

[mrpeter]

^


Mental health problems are not thought to be a major factor in mass shootings.

well it was a factor for eliot roger if you knew anything about him you know he was severely depressed

 

[EvisceratedJester]

well it was a factor for eliot roger if you knew anything about him you know he was severely depressed

Being severely doesn't cause you to commit mass murder. See what I mean by you trying to look gorgeous excuses for his behaviour?

 

[mrpeter]

Being severely doesn't cause you to commit mass murder. See what I mean by you trying to look gorgeous excuses for his behaviour?

i'm literally not wtf did i every say that? killing innocent people is never ok

Mental health issues are generally not considered to be a large factor in things, like mass shootings. 5% of shootings are related to severe mental illnesses while 25% of mass shootings are related to non-psychotic mental illnesses, however, this is incidental. The contribution of mental illness to mass shootings has been on the decrease. Things, such as nihilism, feelings of emptiness, anger, and a desire for notoriety seem to be larger factors in mass shootings. These factors seem to, at least from what I've observed, also heavily intersect with incel ideology.

I just felt the need to specify this, because a lot of people are quick to blame mental illness, especially when it comes to crimes that are viewed as being predominantly committed by white people (around 57% of mass shootings are committed by white people). Oh, and before anyone gets on my ass for mentioning this:


While providing mental health services is important, we shouldn't treat mental illness as the main cause, let alone an excuse for this behaviour. Most mass shootings and mass murders are committed by people who aren't mentally ill.

i'm pretty sure feelings of anger nihilism and emptiness count as a mental problem obviously that isn't an excuse for mass shooters but its a reason

i'm literally not wtf did i every say that? killing innocent people is never ok

i'm pretty sure feelings of anger nihilism and emptiness count as a mental problem obviously that isn't an excuse for mass shooters but its a reason

just because you don't have autism/bipolar/ocd ect doesn't mean you aren't mentally ill

 

[amnesia999]

All I have to add is that Wikipedia has a long article on this Elliot Rodger guy, which paints him as a thoroughly unlikable character whose mother spoiled. She actually bought him a used BMW coupe for $40K so he could attract a girlfriend. He refused to employ the services of a sex worker although it looks like he could afford a high class one.

If you can't get laid, and act out like Rodger did, you get no empathy from me. Being an incel is being part of a hate group. That's the bottom line, really.

 

[EvisceratedJester]

i'm literally not wtf did i every say that? killing innocent people is never ok

i'm pretty sure feelings of anger nihilism and emptiness count as a mental problem obviously that isn't an excuse for mass shooters but its a reason

just because you don't have autism/bipolar/ocd ect doesn't mean you aren't mentally ill

Even if he was mentally ill that wouldn't excuse his actions. Reread the post.

You constantly claim that you aren't excusing him yet you literally blames his parents in your other post. His parents literally spoiled him throughout his childhood.

 

[paredler]

I think Elliot Rodger is a victim of a society that neglected him and treated like shit. The murder might be wrong, but the harsh sentiments he developed throughout the is more than understandable. When the society you live in is prison it can drve you crazy and make you do things you haven't even dreamed of. It makes you express sides of yourself that you don't like.

 

[mrpeter]

I think Elliot Rodger is a victim of a society that neglected him and treated like shit. The murder might be wrong, but the harsh sentiments he developed throughout the is more than understandable. When the society you live in is prison it can drve you crazy and make you do things you haven't even dreamed of. It makes you express sides of yourself that you don't like.

Well I think its more his relationship with his parents and also his nihilism, and not society as a whole thats the problem. Eliot Roger was in my opinion attractive enough to get a girlfriend if I was gay i'd be attracted to him probably
Eliot Roger was never "rejected by society" he never once asked a girl out but got pissed they wouldn't date him.

All I have to add is that Wikipedia has a long article on this Elliot Rodger guy, which paints him as a thoroughly unlikable character whose mother spoiled. She actually bought him a used BMW coupe for $40K so he could attract a girlfriend. He refused to employ the services of a sex worker although it looks like he could afford a high class one.

If you can't get laid, and act out like Rodger did, you get no empathy from me. Being an incel is being part of a hate group. That's the bottom line, really.

Imo Eliot Roger should have just talked to girls he doesn't even need to hire a prostitute he just has a stubborn mindset. Don't know if he thanked his mom. but hes lucky his mom would do that for him.

I believe that was before his dads whole financial crisis, which is one of the leading causes for his mental health deteriorating.

 

[enduringwinter]

I dont think about them bc theyre just so far away from my reality. Might as well think about dragons

 

[amnesia999]

I think Elliot Rodger is a victim of a society that neglected him and treated like shit.

Where are you going to draw the line? The Uvalde, TX school shooter (who killed 19 kids and 2 teachers -- and shot his grandmother, too) was not a member of any known group. He was a loner who got bullied at school and didn't have many friends. It sure sounds like society neglected him and treated him like shit. Does that excuse what he did?

(Due to the liberal gun laws in Texas the US, he was able to buy guns and ammo legally the week he turned 18. He would have had a much harder time causing so much death if it had been hard for him to buy guns. But that's a different discussion altogether.)

 

[pyx]

gee, i wonder if this thread will get locked. what a shock

 

[ThatStateOfMind]

They're terrorists just like every other shooter. I agree with the others on here who say they should just shoot themselves and not other people, world's better off without someone planning on shooting innocent people anyways.

gee, i wonder if this thread will get locked. what a shock

Oh I think it most definitely will, just a matter of time. I'm surprised it hasn't already after reading through the posts