Red

Red

Warlock
Apr 10, 2019
744
It's completely shit here isn't it? I mean in this life, with these people. Everyone nice that I speak to agrees; it really is shit here, and it's mainly because of other people. And if most of us are just trying to get by, doing our best to be good and kind and helpful, why do so many of us struggle so badly? Why is it not okay to want to get out of it? People who consistently make life harder for others need to get a bit of intensive education (m talking proper education , not Guantanamo or China) early on; antisocial and narcissistic behaviours need correcting and discouraging as soon as possible. There are of course grey areas that would have to be navigated but life would be so much easier and nicer if everyone knew, because they they'd been consistently taught, importance of being kind to your fellow people...

Sounds a bit 1984esque but I'm not thinking like that, it's better and kinder and more utopian than that. It's so hard to imagine an incorruptible system.

Right now, it's all built all wrong, we're not tough enough on it as a society. In fact those who have no conscience tend to do better, for it is not punished to solely assign no value to human life or suffering. It sounds cold but I don't really see any argument against weeding that kind of attitude out of our society. What are the rights of one destructive individual if it means that they are not then able to go forth into life causing misery for years to come?
If I came to find that I was the destructive one I would willingly re-educate or even self destruct if I had ably inkling that I was the one causing others pain and misery.
Let's somehow assume that the system remains intact and incorrupt also; that the powers in charge are always working for good and never skewed... (see, the concept even seems alien!!)

Do you think we'd ever get to this point as a society or do you think that there will always be a dark and evil corner of human consciousness that serves to spite and poison the rest of it?
 
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Makko

Makko

Iä!
Jan 17, 2021
2,430
The world consists of people who make, and people who take. You can't police or educate this away. It's not a foreign substance that can be separated and thrown out, it's the basic dynamic of people living in a group.
 
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Red

Red

Warlock
Apr 10, 2019
744
It's not as black n white as that, but there are certain qualities that are so obvious it's almost tangible and I'm sure that certain personality types and attitudes could be tweaked if they were given the attention early enough
 
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Makko

Makko

Iä!
Jan 17, 2021
2,430
In theory, yes, most personalities can be tweaked. In practice, there are no resources to do this. Every parent would need to have infinite money, infinite time to spend on nurturing, and a PhD in ethics and teaching to get the point across. Not how the world looks.

Don't worry though, we're soon entering the age of totalitarian information society that will ensure everyone's full compliance to pre-established ethical norms.
 
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EmbraceOfTheVoid

EmbraceOfTheVoid

Part Time NEET - Full Time Suicidal
Mar 29, 2020
689
Human beings will always be evil because the reality we live in is inherently wrong. You're constantly fighting a losing battle just to exist and you have to trample on other living beings in order to do so.

This post from a antinatalism thread on here sums it up well:

for countless of hundreds of millions of years (maybe even more than that). With humans or without humans. With capitalism or without capitalism. Why? One of the laws of thermodynamics some people don´t know exist but maybe is one (if not **the**) most powerful in our universe is **entropy**. What is it? Well, it basically consists of the fact that it is easier to break something than fix something. It´s easier to create and spread a plague than cure it. It´s easier to write a corrupt law for your own benefits than to create a good one with no loopholes. It´s easier to take a good life than a evil life. You see this in action in our universe constantly because shit breaks contantly, but nothing **ever** miraculously improves. Have you ever noticed that?



This, collaborating with the existence of natural selection and game theory, has given birth to a psychopathic (evil) and psychotic (delusional, strongly prone to optimism bias, wishful thinking, false beliefs, etc) species. We enslave those weaker than thus, both [animals](https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko?t=3315) and humans, the majority of which are forced to work shitty labor jobs, with a childhood involving neglect, trauma, ostracism, bullying, and a generally poor quality of life. This is the 'pulse' of our species, we abuse our children, teenagers and the weak and traumatize them to have the same evil, systematic nature we have. Note: this is **not** exclusive to humans; you can see this sort of behavior in lions, tigers, and other great predators that exhibit this kind of evil behavior, even if irrationally. And the worse is that I believe if another animal species raised to sentience and became "advanced", they would be the same as us.

Let us say, just imagine if having actual concern for humanity or life is even possible with the idea of extreme success as a CEO or high-ranking corporate figure. It's just complete fantasy. The degree to which this is a fantasy, is like someone saying "An antelope could be just as successful being a carnivore as a Lion can." You simply don't arrive at the positions in those places without being 'carnivorous' towards human beings. Because if you were, you would suffer from the same thing that natural selection punishes a Lion that sucks at killing things would suffer from-- you'd just starve and die, because this is a [**competition**](https://youtu.be/95c5GTp__AU). A kind, benevolent, caring, concerned, charitable CEO would just get eaten alive. The laws of biology(which, **reminder**: Human beings are subject to) and the laws of physics, **prevent** good people from becoming CEO's or high ranking corporate figures. It's simply the way the universe works.

Evil **always** works its way to the top in **any** system given enough time-- there's no other way for it not to, in a competition game which says, "The *sneakiest*, most *dominant*, selfish person climbs, while the most *honest*, most *humble* and *selfless* person gets climbed on."

Entropy constantly empowers that which is empowered by virtue of being the perfect distillation of evil, like the Lion, like the predator, like the apex psychopath who is, has always, and will always sit on the throne of all sentient systems in this block of spacetime moving towards greater entropy. Evil thrives once it achieves power because the powerless must work against entropy, where evil only plows forward exhibiting its nature effortlessly. Good must go *against* nature to be good. Evil does not need to do anything special to go *with* nature.


I know this is gonna be a long read, but it is needed to explain the hellish conditions we are in this universe. The problem is **not** capitalism, the problem is **not** humanity itself, the problem will **never** be what the majority of people tell you the true cause of all problems and all the suffering in this world the is nature and the laws of the universe we exist in. It uproots evil and gives it a way to conquer good and use it for its advantage. **This** is the reality that Disney and most media tries to obfuscate to you with systematically spread happy ending stories, even politics and other distractions are there to obfuscate the hellworld that we live in. People have always been trying to find a problem, when the problem is simple: we are in *Hell.*

Almost no one holds this reality up for examination daily. We are allergic. Most of us have near-zero understanding of the gravity, and those who have glimmers, ignore this fact about the quality of our reality because it's not conducive to living another day. Why must we live another day? Because genes which give rise to culture, all of which is determined by game theory which more or less says, "Psychopathy wins and holds dominion over this game". Natural selection is a game where evil wins, not good. Good is kept around for the purpose of evil wearing it's skin like a mask. Good is not adaptive, in the precise way that the cow in cow hell has no adaptive trait. It's alive. It will bear children. Those children will bear children. But nothing "adaptive" is going on. How? The fact of the matter is, a psychopathic species has kept the herbivore alive for its own gain. This is the precise relationship that evil has to goodness. Goodness is kept alive. Buddhism is kept alive. Any genuine benevolent religious idea, is kept alive. All because evil, which is powerfully [camouflaged](https://i.imgur.com/ri1sTPL.gifv),dominates reality and presses onto it in a way which goodness can never overcome.


There´s *even more* material that I could just keep elaborating on, but the true information is that this life is some kind of evil dystopian hell with no winning moves, because almost all of them empower evil. The worse is that we are delusional evil apes that evolved with brains to blind us to the true, *crushing* gravity of the situation we found ourselves into in this spherical concentration camp. If we were to take our delusional apes glasses off and truly take enough time to analyze our circumstances here on Earth, we would just yell **HOLY FUCKING SHIT** and jump off a window. If everyone was truly aware of *how* bad things are, suicide rates would skyrocket worldwide. Everyone would be killing each other, and everyone would be killing themselves. It would be a suicide epidemic of *biblical* proportions. And everyone would be doing it, not just the poor people, but the CEO´S and other powerful "kings" of Earth, because even **they** would be horrified with the revelation.

TL;DR: Life´s even worse than you think and we are in Hell.
 
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saltshaker

saltshaker

salt shaker, rule breaker
Jan 29, 2021
402
> Do you think we'd ever get to this point as a society or do you think that there will always be a dark and evil corner of human consciousness that serves to spite and poison the rest of it?

You act like people choose to be greedy or "evil", there is no choice. You either do whatever you can to make $ to survive, or you starve.

Even the most noble and thoughtful people eventually break under this system and just start thinking about their own financial gain.

I'm getting to that point myself, why help people if i'm going to be left hungry? I'm smarter then most I should just lean into it and start taking advantage of everyone...
 
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262653

262653

Cluesome
Apr 5, 2018
1,733
@EmbraceOfTheVoid Oh yeah, I also remembered that pasta.

Seriously, the only way to see to make people treat each other nicely is to take the power from people to behave differently. State is doing a nice job in this regard but there is still something to strive towards.
 
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GenesAndEnvironment

GenesAndEnvironment

Autistic loser
Jan 26, 2021
5,739
quote-whoever-fights-monsters-should-see-to-it-that-in-the-process-he-does-not-become-a-monster-friedrich-nietzsche-21-44-72.jpg
 
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UseItOrLoseIt

UseItOrLoseIt

1O'8
Dec 4, 2020
2,217
Society wouldn't exist without people. But the main purpose of society is not to take care of its people, but to sustain itself. Society, in a sense, doesn't belong to us any more. We are just cogs in a machine.

On an individual level, I'd given up on relying on other people and blaming other people. It's foolish to expect anything from anyone. Nobody owes you anything.
 
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sorella santini

sorella santini

Member
Jan 19, 2021
87
It is hard wired into living things to do what is necessary to survive. Don't know if we will ever evolve away from that.
 
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E

Endeavour

Mage
Dec 13, 2020
566
I don't think we're supposed to live like this, in huge cities with thousands and thousands of other people, existing just to exist with no quality of life.

I think we're supposed to live in smaller groups and that family and community is what we're evolved for, but the family unit has been wrecked, everyone has to work just to keep their heads above water, even the identity of the self is under attack.

I think this structure is creating a species full of very unhappy people.
 
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Good4Nothing

Good4Nothing

Unlovable
May 8, 2020
1,865
This reminds me of the 2 Norwegian girls who went hiking in the Atlas mountains 2 years ago.
They believed in the inherent goodness of people, they believed they could change the world through love. They would go to the airport or train stations and welcome refugees with signs that said "Welcome! We love you!"
How did life reward them? They were kidnapped in the Atlas mountains by 5 men who raped and tortured them for days, then cut their heads off, filmed their beheadings with their own phones, and sent the videos to their mothers.
 
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E

Endeavour

Mage
Dec 13, 2020
566
This reminds me of the 2 Norwegian girls who went hiking in the Atlas mountains 2 years ago.
They believed in the inherent goodness of people, they believed they could change the world through love. They would go to the airport or train stations and welcome refugees with signs that said "Welcome! We love you!"
How did life reward them? They were kidnapped in the Atlas mountains by 5 men who raped and tortured them for days, then cut their heads off, filmed their beheadings with their own phones, and sent the videos to their mothers.
Humans at their worst. There was someone else who was doing some kind of charity bike ride or something, she was also murdered horribly.

Trying to help people and they got that.
 
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A

AE2021

Experienced
Sep 21, 2020
216
There are so many interesting and thoughtful comments in this post! This is an issue that I think about quite often. It is definitely multifaceted and I think that everyone's point is a contributing factor. There are individual issues that make this world what the original OP described as well as social and financial manipulations on a larger scale. Regardless, I think civilization is in a downhill spiral and will not get better. An interesting take that resonated with me when I read about it a while back was how the U.S. education system was shaped by early industrialists. I can't remember the book title but a quick Google search found information and described it this way - "The modern education system was designed to teach future factory workers to be 'punctual, docile, and sober' ". So in part the financial system is set up to manipulate and make us cogs in the machine unless we can break free. Even though factory work is not as dominant in the US as it used to be, this same concept can still apply. The system didn't want a bunch of independent, creative thinkers running around. It wanted obedience.

 
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W

WornOutLife

マット
Mar 22, 2020
7,164
The world consists of people who make, and people who take. You can't police or educate this away. It's not a foreign substance that can be separated and thrown out, it's the basic dynamic of people living in a group.

I totally agree with Makko's words.
 
E

Endeavour

Mage
Dec 13, 2020
566
There are so many interesting and thoughtful comments in this post! This is an issue that I think about quite often. It is definitely multifaceted and I think that everyone's point is a contributing factor. There are individual issues that make this world what the original OP described as well as social and financial manipulations on a larger scale. Regardless, I think civilization is in a downhill spiral and will not get better. An interesting take that resonated with me when I read about it a while back was how the U.S. education system was shaped by early industrialists. I can't remember the book title but a quick Google search found information and described it this way - "The modern education system was designed to teach future factory workers to be 'punctual, docile, and sober' ". So in part the financial system is set up to manipulate and make us cogs in the machine unless we can break free. Even though factory work is not as dominant in the US as it used to be, this same concept can still apply. The system didn't want a bunch of independent, creative thinkers running around. It wanted obedience.

George Carlin covered this in one of his shows - they don't want people who can think, only to be smart enough to operate the machinery, but dumb enough not to realise how badly they're getting shafted. They want obedient workers.

I think he hit the nail on the head, as have you.
 
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S

Symbiote

Global Mod
Oct 12, 2020
3,101
"You offer a human an inch, they take a mile"

Regardless of belief systems or social backgrounds, I believe humans are a very self-indulgent species that makes up the chemical makeup of humanity. A twisted view of self-preservation whether it be riches, fame, or power, no matter how many people they step on, they all believe that they're doing it for their own good. This is why a lot of them also feel guilt. And the ones that don't take advantage of others, feel envy, jealousy, or anger. No idea how emotions work in the beginning of time or how it came to be. Emotions are complex for humans while animals are a bit more simple. We can practice all the stoicism we want, but never can tame our emotional complexes. Wants and desires come out first before humbleness and kindness. Humans take care of themselves first before taking care of others.

We are considered mentally ill because we view things differently from the norm. Maybe some of us have become self-aware or "woke" to the truth of human society. For me, I view the world as a shitty place that has been tainted by humanity who've gone unchecked for so long that this is the normal. There is no god to check on us, and aliens stay away from us because maybe they know that we are the rejected species of the universe.
 
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UseItOrLoseIt

UseItOrLoseIt

1O'8
Dec 4, 2020
2,217
There are so many interesting and thoughtful comments in this post! This is an issue that I think about quite often. It is definitely multifaceted and I think that everyone's point is a contributing factor. There are individual issues that make this world what the original OP described as well as social and financial manipulations on a larger scale. Regardless, I think civilization is in a downhill spiral and will not get better. An interesting take that resonated with me when I read about it a while back was how the U.S. education system was shaped by early industrialists. I can't remember the book title but a quick Google search found information and described it this way - "The modern education system was designed to teach future factory workers to be 'punctual, docile, and sober' ". So in part the financial system is set up to manipulate and make us cogs in the machine unless we can break free. Even though factory work is not as dominant in the US as it used to be, this same concept can still apply. The system didn't want a bunch of independent, creative thinkers running around. It wanted obedience.
I think this applies even more today. Education can't hold the candle to media influence. Society has never had a more efficient method of control. Media influence is way more subtle and perfidious than any sort of education. At least when you get educated you are aware of the fact that you are getting influenced to a certain degree.
And it's way more harmless to teach people to be punctual, docile and sober, which may even lead to forming good habits, than it is to deviously influence them to become the perfect consumer, masking this intention by distracting them and tricking them into thinking they need everything that is advertised.
 
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A

AE2021

Experienced
Sep 21, 2020
216
I think this applies even more today. Education can't hold the candle to media influence. Society has never had a more efficient method of control. Media influence is way more subtle and perfidious than any sort of education. At least when you get educated you are aware of the fact that you are getting influenced to a certain degree.
And it's way more harmless to teach people to be punctual, docile and sober, which may even lead to forming good habits, than it is to deviously influence them to become the perfect consumer, masking this intention by distracting them and tricking them into thinking they need everything that is advertised.
I couldn't agree with you more. I was thinking about todays media influence too when I commented on the education system. You stated it perfectly!
 
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