RainAndSadness
Administrator
- Jun 12, 2018
- 2,144
Disclaimer: this entire thread was deleted before I could publish it so I essentially wrote it twice and I don't give a fuck anymore. My anger level is unmeasurable.
As you know, I'm a strong advocate for the right to die. The problem is, right now, the ethical consesus doesn't go far enough. As I've outlined in the past, there is a right to die in theory. That means the ECHR has repeatedly made clear that suicide is an expression of individual autonomy, see here.
That means you have a right to exercise your right to die on your own terms but the goverment doesn't need to help you. They can, in fact, decide to sabotage your right to die with suicide prevention. It's fucked up but that's the status quo in pretty much every country right now. They can decide how they want to walk the thin line between the right to life and the right to die. But there is at least a right to die on paper, as it's outlined in this academic paper, The International Journal Of Human Rights and I've included a snippet of that here.
It's a very interesting paper, you can check it out if you want to read more about assisted suicide and the ethical implications that come with it from an academic standpoint. The arguments make sense and they're more coherent than anything any fixer will ever throw at you. Anyway, back to topic. There is just one problem. A right to die alone, as it exists right now, doesn't grant you a peaceful death. That's the issue. You're basically allowed to take your own life but the reality is, that often leads to brutal, slow and agonazing death. Well, at least if you don't do your research but we know that plenty of people don't have the means to commit suicide in a painless and peaceful manner, despite all the research in the world. In fact it's very difficult to exercise a peaceful suicide if you don't have the right ressources. You need financial ressources (money to buy the things you need), you need educational ressources (information), logistical ressources (being able to obtain what you need) and you need physical capability to exercise your right to die(doing the act). If you're bedridden or if you're out of money, that makes it significanlty more difficult for you to have a peaceful and dignified death. You see the problem.
So right now, you essentially have a right to live in dignity, and a right to die painfully. Well, let me correct myself. You have a right to live - with or without dignity, and it essentially translates to a right to suffer. Let's be clear, if you read this forum you don't get the impression that we have right to live in dignity, right? Many of us don't have a right to live in dignity at all. We all have a right to live, yeah. But that's a part of the problem and that's one of the reasons many of us are here. Anyway, you have a right to suffer and you have a right to end your life most likely painfully or at least with a lot of discomfort. That's your outlook on life. And that's the status quo. Quite depressing if you ask me...
Anyway. So as I've just established you have a right to die (in pain and agony) and that alone isn't not good enough. That's why I'm making the case for a right to die in peace. Let me explain. We need to make the case that a compassionate and empathic society provides it's citizen a better way out than jumping from a bridge or hanging themselves in a closet. That's the key to the conversation. We shouldn't just have a right to die. We should have a right to die peacefully. We should have a right to die without pain. We should have a right to die with dignity. We should have a right to die in peace. And if possible, surrounded by loves ones.
We need to make clear that the right to die as a good thing, as the only compassionate position in this conversation because we value human dignity and relief from pain. But people who oppose suicide have brainwashed society for centuries into believing that the right to die is a bad thing, on principle. We're not allowed to talk about it. And we need to prevent it, no matter what. That's the status quo. Right now these people control the framing of the conversation and pretend to care about people when all they want is to prolong our suffering. That's all they care about, let's be honest. The care of most people ends when your suicide attempt is prevented with coercion and you're discharged from a psychiatric facility back into your miserable life so you can plan your next attempt. These people don't care about dignity. They don't care about autonomy either, both have just been violated in the most painful ways.
To sum it up, they have succesfully smeared my position as abhorrent and indefensable when it's actually us that advocate compassionately for relief from pain and that's a good thing. We need to make that clear. Relief from pain is a good thing. Period. And for some people, relief is death. And that's okay. Some people are in so much pain, in so many agony, in so much distress that all they want is a way out. And sometimes, that's death because it's the absence of all that pain that makes their life unbearable in the first place. And sometimes, there isn't that much you can do about that. Some people are in so much chronic pain that they simply can't take it any longer and isn't it an act of mercy to give them a kind way out, if they come to the conclusion it's the right choice? Wouldn't it be cruel to egg that person on to keep going even if they don't want to and essentially prolong their suffering?
People who oppose the right to die would know that's immoral if they ever talked to a person that's been in so much pain. I know because I have done that in this forum in the past few years. I've talked to people with severe mental pain, people with severe disabilities that decreased their quality of life drastically, people with degenerative conditions who suffer from constant physical pain, people that were diagnosed with a terminal conditions, people that were literally bedridden und unable to do anything except suffer. I've talked with these people in this forum because they have reached out to me and it's difficult. These stories weight so much more than some angry fixer that yells into the void about the bad impact of this forum. What do you think, you think about at night, when you lay in your bed? Not the angry Twitter mob. The suffering that's condensed in this forum. And it has only emboldend my stance on the right to die. It makes me angry to know that so many people out there are left alone in their pain, nobody cares about them, the system is simply unable to treat them with dignity and fulfill their last final wish - peace. That's why I think the right to die in peace needs to be a thing because the right to die, as it exists right now, is barely recognised in practice anyway and it's only a mediocre solution.
By the way, what I said about the ignorance of people who oppose the right to die applies to this forum as well, this forum is demonized and tainted forever with smear campaigns for exactly the same reason, because they're brainwashed into believing that relief from pain is a bad thing. These people should go shame themselves forever. Unbelievable. This forum fulfills important needs, the sense of community is very importat to so many people here, people who otherwise couldn't open up and talk about their most intimate thoughts. We treat each other with compassion, empathy and love here. And your individual autonomy and human dignity is respected. This forum has definitely a legimiate reason to exist in such a cruel world like ours. I believe that.
We live in a cruel society that doesn't appreciate its people enough, that's why it doesn't care how we die. That's the problem. And yes, as I established earlier, you have a right to live - without dignity and that's a part of the problem. We have to fight on both ends and create a society that provides support and help for those that need it but it needs to be optional. But we also need to protect the right to die in peace on the other hand for people who simply had enough, people who just want to leave. I know that's difficult.
As a trans woman that experienced the threat of homelessness, poverty, sexual assault, systemic discrimination and apathy from pretty much the entire world, I know that this world is a mess. It's not a surprise that there is a legitimate need for this forum. We need to create a society in which you can live in dignity, in which you can live a good life, a society that treats you with the dignity you deserve regardless of your circumstances and your contributions simply because you're here. We need to reward that because none of us made the decision to be here in the first place and if we incentive people to stay here voluntarily, that's the goal. Sadly, the practice right now is to keep people here with coercion, with force. intimidation, fear. You know the shenanigans of this natalist society. We experience it in this forum when someone thinks it's a good idea to fear monger about death. So yeah, my goal is to create a world that's worth living and where you can die peacefully. It's not a one-sided coin.
And while we do that, we must protect the right to die and make the case for a peaceful way out because we value individual autonomy and human dignity. If someone says 'no, I've had enough', they should have a right to leave in dignity, without pain, peacefully and if possible, surrounded by their family.
I know it's a long thread. It was shorter before but I accidently deleted the entire draft and now I just added more points. I know I'm talking a lot about a right to die peacefully in this thread but it's important for make to make the case for a right to life in dignity as well. Because it's also an important right that's neglected in an exploitative society likes ours, where it's all about work, work, work. But if talked more about it, and maybe I'll do that someday, there will be a lot of criticism of Capitalism - a system that doesn't care how you life, as long as you live and work full hours with minmal pay. The system is broken, don't worry - I see that. And I'm sure the overhelming majority of the members in this forum agree with me when I say we don't have a right to live in dignity - it's more or less a right to live and in our cases a right to suffer with no way out. Well, with a way out if you're lucky enough to have the right ressources, as I established earlier. And if that's not the case, then there is only pain. Right?
Keep in mind, I'm not talking about people that don't have recovery in mind any longer. I'm talking about people that have a long history of suffering, who came to a particular conclusion after a long thought process. For example, I've been suicidal for most of my life. And my entire life was just one big struggle. I hope that explains the somewhat nihilistic descriptions of life in this thread. Either way...
I'll end it on this note because I spent hours on this thread again, thanks to my mistake... Please give me your thoughts, I appreciate to hear some input. Thanks everyone.
As you know, I'm a strong advocate for the right to die. The problem is, right now, the ethical consesus doesn't go far enough. As I've outlined in the past, there is a right to die in theory. That means the ECHR has repeatedly made clear that suicide is an expression of individual autonomy, see here.
That means you have a right to exercise your right to die on your own terms but the goverment doesn't need to help you. They can, in fact, decide to sabotage your right to die with suicide prevention. It's fucked up but that's the status quo in pretty much every country right now. They can decide how they want to walk the thin line between the right to life and the right to die. But there is at least a right to die on paper, as it's outlined in this academic paper, The International Journal Of Human Rights and I've included a snippet of that here.
It's a very interesting paper, you can check it out if you want to read more about assisted suicide and the ethical implications that come with it from an academic standpoint. The arguments make sense and they're more coherent than anything any fixer will ever throw at you. Anyway, back to topic. There is just one problem. A right to die alone, as it exists right now, doesn't grant you a peaceful death. That's the issue. You're basically allowed to take your own life but the reality is, that often leads to brutal, slow and agonazing death. Well, at least if you don't do your research but we know that plenty of people don't have the means to commit suicide in a painless and peaceful manner, despite all the research in the world. In fact it's very difficult to exercise a peaceful suicide if you don't have the right ressources. You need financial ressources (money to buy the things you need), you need educational ressources (information), logistical ressources (being able to obtain what you need) and you need physical capability to exercise your right to die(doing the act). If you're bedridden or if you're out of money, that makes it significanlty more difficult for you to have a peaceful and dignified death. You see the problem.
So right now, you essentially have a right to live in dignity, and a right to die painfully. Well, let me correct myself. You have a right to live - with or without dignity, and it essentially translates to a right to suffer. Let's be clear, if you read this forum you don't get the impression that we have right to live in dignity, right? Many of us don't have a right to live in dignity at all. We all have a right to live, yeah. But that's a part of the problem and that's one of the reasons many of us are here. Anyway, you have a right to suffer and you have a right to end your life most likely painfully or at least with a lot of discomfort. That's your outlook on life. And that's the status quo. Quite depressing if you ask me...
Anyway. So as I've just established you have a right to die (in pain and agony) and that alone isn't not good enough. That's why I'm making the case for a right to die in peace. Let me explain. We need to make the case that a compassionate and empathic society provides it's citizen a better way out than jumping from a bridge or hanging themselves in a closet. That's the key to the conversation. We shouldn't just have a right to die. We should have a right to die peacefully. We should have a right to die without pain. We should have a right to die with dignity. We should have a right to die in peace. And if possible, surrounded by loves ones.
We need to make clear that the right to die as a good thing, as the only compassionate position in this conversation because we value human dignity and relief from pain. But people who oppose suicide have brainwashed society for centuries into believing that the right to die is a bad thing, on principle. We're not allowed to talk about it. And we need to prevent it, no matter what. That's the status quo. Right now these people control the framing of the conversation and pretend to care about people when all they want is to prolong our suffering. That's all they care about, let's be honest. The care of most people ends when your suicide attempt is prevented with coercion and you're discharged from a psychiatric facility back into your miserable life so you can plan your next attempt. These people don't care about dignity. They don't care about autonomy either, both have just been violated in the most painful ways.
To sum it up, they have succesfully smeared my position as abhorrent and indefensable when it's actually us that advocate compassionately for relief from pain and that's a good thing. We need to make that clear. Relief from pain is a good thing. Period. And for some people, relief is death. And that's okay. Some people are in so much pain, in so many agony, in so much distress that all they want is a way out. And sometimes, that's death because it's the absence of all that pain that makes their life unbearable in the first place. And sometimes, there isn't that much you can do about that. Some people are in so much chronic pain that they simply can't take it any longer and isn't it an act of mercy to give them a kind way out, if they come to the conclusion it's the right choice? Wouldn't it be cruel to egg that person on to keep going even if they don't want to and essentially prolong their suffering?
People who oppose the right to die would know that's immoral if they ever talked to a person that's been in so much pain. I know because I have done that in this forum in the past few years. I've talked to people with severe mental pain, people with severe disabilities that decreased their quality of life drastically, people with degenerative conditions who suffer from constant physical pain, people that were diagnosed with a terminal conditions, people that were literally bedridden und unable to do anything except suffer. I've talked with these people in this forum because they have reached out to me and it's difficult. These stories weight so much more than some angry fixer that yells into the void about the bad impact of this forum. What do you think, you think about at night, when you lay in your bed? Not the angry Twitter mob. The suffering that's condensed in this forum. And it has only emboldend my stance on the right to die. It makes me angry to know that so many people out there are left alone in their pain, nobody cares about them, the system is simply unable to treat them with dignity and fulfill their last final wish - peace. That's why I think the right to die in peace needs to be a thing because the right to die, as it exists right now, is barely recognised in practice anyway and it's only a mediocre solution.
By the way, what I said about the ignorance of people who oppose the right to die applies to this forum as well, this forum is demonized and tainted forever with smear campaigns for exactly the same reason, because they're brainwashed into believing that relief from pain is a bad thing. These people should go shame themselves forever. Unbelievable. This forum fulfills important needs, the sense of community is very importat to so many people here, people who otherwise couldn't open up and talk about their most intimate thoughts. We treat each other with compassion, empathy and love here. And your individual autonomy and human dignity is respected. This forum has definitely a legimiate reason to exist in such a cruel world like ours. I believe that.
We live in a cruel society that doesn't appreciate its people enough, that's why it doesn't care how we die. That's the problem. And yes, as I established earlier, you have a right to live - without dignity and that's a part of the problem. We have to fight on both ends and create a society that provides support and help for those that need it but it needs to be optional. But we also need to protect the right to die in peace on the other hand for people who simply had enough, people who just want to leave. I know that's difficult.
As a trans woman that experienced the threat of homelessness, poverty, sexual assault, systemic discrimination and apathy from pretty much the entire world, I know that this world is a mess. It's not a surprise that there is a legitimate need for this forum. We need to create a society in which you can live in dignity, in which you can live a good life, a society that treats you with the dignity you deserve regardless of your circumstances and your contributions simply because you're here. We need to reward that because none of us made the decision to be here in the first place and if we incentive people to stay here voluntarily, that's the goal. Sadly, the practice right now is to keep people here with coercion, with force. intimidation, fear. You know the shenanigans of this natalist society. We experience it in this forum when someone thinks it's a good idea to fear monger about death. So yeah, my goal is to create a world that's worth living and where you can die peacefully. It's not a one-sided coin.
And while we do that, we must protect the right to die and make the case for a peaceful way out because we value individual autonomy and human dignity. If someone says 'no, I've had enough', they should have a right to leave in dignity, without pain, peacefully and if possible, surrounded by their family.
I know it's a long thread. It was shorter before but I accidently deleted the entire draft and now I just added more points. I know I'm talking a lot about a right to die peacefully in this thread but it's important for make to make the case for a right to life in dignity as well. Because it's also an important right that's neglected in an exploitative society likes ours, where it's all about work, work, work. But if talked more about it, and maybe I'll do that someday, there will be a lot of criticism of Capitalism - a system that doesn't care how you life, as long as you live and work full hours with minmal pay. The system is broken, don't worry - I see that. And I'm sure the overhelming majority of the members in this forum agree with me when I say we don't have a right to live in dignity - it's more or less a right to live and in our cases a right to suffer with no way out. Well, with a way out if you're lucky enough to have the right ressources, as I established earlier. And if that's not the case, then there is only pain. Right?
Keep in mind, I'm not talking about people that don't have recovery in mind any longer. I'm talking about people that have a long history of suffering, who came to a particular conclusion after a long thought process. For example, I've been suicidal for most of my life. And my entire life was just one big struggle. I hope that explains the somewhat nihilistic descriptions of life in this thread. Either way...
I'll end it on this note because I spent hours on this thread again, thanks to my mistake... Please give me your thoughts, I appreciate to hear some input. Thanks everyone.
Last edited:
