There is a salient difference between short term, impulsive suicidality and long term, sustained suicidality

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

If you are unable to recognise that such a distinction exists, or vehemently deny that suicidal urges can persist in the long term, you should not be considered an expert on matters of suicidology, mental health, or any sort of health/healthcare policymaking for that matter (and should probably see if you still have functioning grey matter, if your brain continues to stay lodged so far up your own anal cavity)

Real experts don't just ignore uncomfortable or inconevient facts, nor do they seek to conceal pieces of the puzzle. Honest to god scientists seek to uncover answers regardless of how unpleasant they may be, for there is no way to progress on certain fronts without comprehensively and succinctly identifying the problem to be solved.

These people are a disgrace to the profession and their voices should not be the prevailing narrative, yet I see the same bold claims being asserted over and over again with a lack of substantial evidence, the claim being that the majority of suicides are impulsive and triggered by temporary problems.

Coincidentally, these "studies" never seem to include data from locations with the highest suicide rates. They never offer any perspectives besides second hand accounts from those left behind. If you want to call yourself a scientist, don't be sloppy, be committed to your craft.

If you continue to ignore the elephant in the room, more and more suffering will persist. This doesn't need to happen. There's no method to this madness. Reframe the preconceptions you hold of those whose suffering is not ephemeral.

 

[motel rooms]

Real experts don't just ignore uncomfortable or inconevient facts, nor do they seek to conceal pieces of the puzzle. Honest to god scientists seek to uncover answers regardless of how unpleasant they may be

They also purposely conflate all unsuccessful attempts & actual suicides. Blatant intellectual dishonesty.

 

[GentlyFading]

I agree. It's frustrating seeing how skewed my country's academic establishment is on this.

Now that I think of it though it makes sense that it's like that here. There are more households with guns and gun ownership is most prevalent in rural areas that have the least resources. Since suicide by firearm has a really high success rate it makes sense that healthcare policies plan around the impulsive SI and gun ownership here. I can't legally own a gun because I've been caught too many times failing to end my life (I was a dumb teenager what can I say ^^;).

This approach to public health policy is effective here. The issue is that's it's extremely irresponsible to take the the social context of my country and apply it to all of suicide. This isn't the reality of say, Korea or Japan which have higher suicide rates and limited gun access.

 

[KuriGohan&Kamehameha]

They also purposely conflate all unsuccessful attempts & actual suicides. Blatant intellectual dishonesty.

100% especially when they conveniently assume the reason for any failed attempt is that one has a secret lust for life and doesn't actually want to die.

It couldn't have been that getting 4727282 phone calls from the authorities and fearing subsequent punishment (which came to fruition when they were banging at the door) caused me to fail my suicide attempt, nah, I secretly wanted to face death head on so that I could embark on my eat pray love journey, of course!

The fact that social consequences upon failure, loss of income stemming from sectioning/forced hospitalizations, trauma from forced treatment, etc don't ever cross their minds as a potential deferent from future attempts just proves that they are woefully- and perhaps even purposefully- out of touch with the damage inflicted by current preventative measures.

 

[little helpers]

If you are unable to recognise that such a distinction exists, or vehemently deny that suicidal urges can persist in the long term, you should not be considered an expert on matters of suicidology, mental health, or any sort of health/healthcare policymaking for that matter (and should probably see if you still have functioning grey matter, if your brain continues to stay lodged so far up your own anal cavity)

Real experts don't just ignore uncomfortable or inconevient facts, nor do they seek to conceal pieces of the puzzle. Honest to god scientists seek to uncover answers regardless of how unpleasant they may be, for there is no way to progress on certain fronts without comprehensively and succinctly identifying the problem to be solved.

These people are a disgrace to the profession and their voices should not be the prevailing narrative, yet I see the same bold claims being asserted over and over again with a lack of substantial evidence, the claim being that the majority of suicides are impulsive and triggered by temporary problems.

Coincidentally, these "studies" never seem to include data from locations with the highest suicide rates. They never offer any perspectives besides second hand accounts from those left behind. If you want to call yourself a scientist, don't be sloppy, be committed to your craft.

If you continue to ignore the elephant in the room, more and more suffering will persist. This doesn't need to happen. There's no method to this madness. Reframe the preconceptions you hold of those whose suffering is not ephemeral.

very, very, very well-put. I gotta need to improve my lexicon a bit just to tell you how daringly true and cognizantly well-written this is.

send me your dictionary. I need it. or your brain. /s

and if anyone wants to talk about suicidology, let's do it. I have too much to say on that.

They also purposely conflate all unsuccessful attempts & actual suicides. Blatant intellectual dishonesty.

tell me more about this if you wanna. I'm not the academia/intellectual sort of person (call me a street ass neuroscientist lol) so I don't know what's going on there.

also realized reason why I write long posts is cuz I have a problem with using big words (like that makes me look White or something) and now I gotta explain myself with five when simply one will do. smh.

Edit: I'm here explaining myself again that I'm not saying the "you're not Black/BIPOC enough" BS. but I do have that bit of internalized racism towards myself. so fuck me.

 

[LingeringUnreal]

This is worded very well and explains a lot I've been thinking about wrt my own emotions - I've been in both positions (impulsive teenage suicidiality) and long term constant planning, and the difference is immeasurable to those who have been through similar. They're all treated exactly the same way by society at large though, especially these fuckhead journalist types who want to coddle and forcefully detain anyone suicidal to put them on meds....that make them more suicidal. Feels like being put through a meat grinder.

At least here we can actually talk openly about the differences and whether suicide is an option in whatever position you're in - you don't get that anywhere else, not even with the best therapists out there.

 

[little helpers]

Feels like being put through a meat grinder.

I'm gon remember this metaphor forever, I think.

kinda interested to know what you think you would do with someone in the "impulsive teen" situation. Idk what you specifically meant by that. but I'd like to know. both.

 

[LingeringUnreal]

I'm gon remember this metaphor forever, I think.

kinda interested to know what you think you would do with someone in the "impulsive teen" situation. Idk what you specifically meant by that. but I'd like to know. both.

For me specifically I was on a lot of meds that like, turned off my ability to have impulse control? So I would have a vaguely suicidal thought and just immediately start chugging medications out of nowhere. So I don't think the answer would be "more medications", I think it should be more (and I know I'm sappy to say this) but like figuring out stuff from the teenager's perspective and going over their risk factors and dealing with those vs throwing into mental hospitals.

Like for example if I'd been able to live in one place and see the same psychiatrist throughout my teen years, I feel like that would've avoided more impulsive suicide attempts vs seeing 10 different people who all want me on a different medication to counteract the affects of another medication I'm on.


It's complicated because right now I just don't think there's any good options especially for teenagers who are essentially owned by their parents. Parents can easily override any medication/psychology related care in their kids lives - the best psychs on earth, the strongest meds, that stuff doesn't stop child abuse, neglect, or mental illness completely. Idk, food for thought. I'd love to hear others opinions on it as well.

 

[GentlyFading]

100% especially when they conveniently assume the reason for any failed attempt is that one has a secret lust for life and doesn't actually want to die.

It couldn't have been that getting 4727282 phone calls from the authorities and fearing subsequent punishment (which came to fruition when they were banging at the door) caused me to fail my suicide attempt, nah, I secretly wanted to face death head on so that I could embark on my eat pray love journey, of course!

The fact that social consequences upon failure, loss of income stemming from sectioning/forced hospitalizations, trauma from forced treatment, etc don't ever cross their minds as a potential deferent from future attempts just proves that they are woefully- and perhaps even purposefully- out of touch with the damage inflicted by current preventative measures.

You've got me thinking of a lot of the paternalism that comes with less professional researchers and policy makers in the field.

Another user here shared this article criticizing the NYT piece on SS and I appreciate this quote:

If its reporters did bother to dig a little, they would find that the forum is filled with users' traumatic experiences in the mental health system, especially with suicide hotlines, whose operators are required to alert emergency services if they believe someone is a danger to themselves or others. Justifiably or not, failure here can erode trust, leading those most in need of such resources to seek out alternatives, and their perspective is worthy of inclusion.​

I've pretty much accepted that paternalism is inherit to academia and healthcare. There are individuals I respect but not the institutions as a whole. Peer support is greater than any doctor in my book.That's why I prefer hanging out here on SS because there are other folks who understand the consequences for "getting help" when you're suicidal.

tell me more about this if you wanna. I'm not the academia/intellectual sort of person (call me a street ass neuroscientist lol) so I don't know what's going on there.

I think what @hotelbeneathground is getting at is that researchers tend group people who are suicidal under the same umbrella when there is generally a BIG difference between successful and unsuccessful attempts. Most unsuccessful attempts are done with medication overdoses and are impulsive. This makes sense. Anyone who takes a moment to research methods knows that med ODs are unreliable as fuck. Successful attempts are usually planned far ahead of time.

That being said, gun ownership throws a wrench in this dichotomy. That's why I brought that up in my initial post. Both acute and chronic suicidal ideation will result in a successful suicide when a gun is involved.

Hope this helps somewhat!

 

[little helpers]

For me specifically I was on a lot of meds that like, turned off my ability to have impulse control? So I would have a vaguely suicidal thought and just immediately start chugging medications out of nowhere. So I don't think the answer would be "more medications", I think it should be more (and I know I'm sappy to say this) but like figuring out stuff from the teenager's perspective and going over their risk factors and dealing with those vs throwing into mental hospitals.

Like for example if I'd been able to live in one place and see the same psychiatrist throughout my teen years, I feel like that would've avoided more impulsive suicide attempts vs seeing 10 different people who all want me on a different medication to counteract the affects of another medication I'm on.


It's complicated because right now I just don't think there's any good options especially for teenagers who are essentiallyowned by their parents. Parents can easily override any medication/psychology related care in their kids lives - the best psychs on earth, the strongest meds, that stuff doesn't stop child abuse, neglect, or mental illness completely. Idk, food for thought. I'd love to hear others opinions on it as well.

your shrink Rx'ed you alcohol, didn't they? or was it meth (Christina®)? I'd love to try it!! /s

okay that's me kidding. and despite me being a smackhead I'd never ever ever dream to smoke meth. let alone shoot it. I got offered that a few times, invitation from good friends of mine, and I just fucking ran the hell away. I like methheads. meth is a bit too much.

and I don't think you're "sappy" about that. no way. that's what I'd also like people to do. getting down to this person. hear them out. now they *both* know they aren't alone (hotlines hardly do any of that tbh) *and* can gain perspectives from each other (which hotlines basically just don't do).

the "10 different shrinks, 10 different intakes, 10 times telling the same story, and 10 times the money" thing. man, I know this too well. and teens being "owned by their parents [who] can easily override any medication/psychology related care in their kids lives", that's spot-on. also like, I think every household, school, facility, organization, workplace etc. should absolutely have trauma-awareness integrated to them. heard San Diego is running pilot programs with some of their public schools. the results are very staggering. how much a bit of investment can do.

and I'd always like to see a bit more community-building. used to do that everywhere, psych wards even. my favorite thing is just forming connections with others. can't do that too much these days. I was a better person then.

Edit: oh, and I agree with you on "not more medication". first we too over-medicated (and polymedication needs be preceded with enough caution), second *that* is a temporary solution to a permanent problem. for ctb'ing b/c of trauma and/or neurodivergence (which just shouldn't have been pathologized in the first place).

I've pretty much accepted that paternalism is inherit to academia and healthcare.

absolutely. modern medicine is father of ableism. and academia is medicine's lil brother, you know.

 

[montana007]

Interesting topic.

It's a question of perception by people that really don't fucking matter (or shouldn't). I've made the distinction for myself i.e. been suicidal and planning for at least two and a half years and absolutely fucking miserable. thanks to crippling depression. But what's the bet: if I off myself in a moment of anger and frustration with a gun it'll be deemed as impulsive. Fact of the matter is that I've come to terms with the fact that it's the only way I"m going to succeed. I mean it's not like when one of these suicidal waves befalls me (hourly) that's going to spur me on to jump up and go prepare SN or Fent. Both gonna take too long and give me time to ponder. Big mistake I've been making is thinking that thing will change and improve as if by some type of magic from the universe. Not gonna happen. And with that mindset I could be here after year of being really fucking miserable and which is no longer tenable because it's zapping my pride and self-respect and that's all I have left of me. Not a fuck am I waiting to be totally stripped of either.

As this all pertains to the mediical profession: fuck them. I honestly don't think that even they understand what true depression is about. Throwing pharmaceuticals at the problem isn't the solution either (to coin phrase but turn it on its head: at best that's a short-term solution to long-term and underlying problem and that may have been so for decades). In other words: understanding the nuts and bolts of depression isn't good enough. Examining and trying to resolve the underlying causes is another thing (although everyone is different and will have very different reasons for being here and at this point let's face it i.e. probably far too many permutations for the medical profession to be able to deal with or give enough of a fuck to try).

Mind you: I suppose there's an argument that could be made in there is big difference between clinical depression and somebody having a bad week/life. The latter will come and go. And I'd go out on a limb to say that anybody that acts on the latter; well such could be deemed as impulsive no?

I've been on anti-depressants off and on for years. And that tells me that what I am now going through isn'y something nee thay just fell from the sky yesterday. Been on several different types and nothing doing. If anything they've made the situation worse and simply provided a few fleeting moments of repreive and which has resulted in t total an utter waste of time over the years. Like just kicking the proverbiial can down the road until the next time.