Discussion [Theory] The one card that prolifers will never play

[TAW122]

This is something that recently crossed my mind. Back in the days (prior to before I left and also before the original owners handed ownership to the new admin here), I recall Serge and Marquis (or mostly Marquis) mention something about the existence of this forum/platform and having a voice, a safe space to be able to freely talk about. This is also prior to the awful, disingenuous journalists from the news organization NYT, by slandering and misrepresenting what this platform and safe space stands for.

With that said, I think there is just one thing that (of course they (prolifers) would never do...) if prolifers did, then it would indeed solve ALL our problems, sentience and existence itself. This would be just to accept suicide is a permanent solution to ALL (not temporary) problem(s). Similar to the cliché and trite statement, our problems are far from temporary, especially if it is life itself. Prolifers would rather revel in delusions, false hope, and deny any meaningful, honest, open dialogue about the right to die and suicide being a 'rational' option for people. I arrived at this realization due to the fact that during non-sentience (most of the time before our sentience and also the indefinite amount of time before the end of time - after our deaths) there were no problems, no pleasure, no pain and suffering, just nothingness. There is nothing inherently negative nor positive being non-sentient. In fact, I believe if all non-sentient beings prior to sentience had the ability and choice (before they existed) to choose whether to be born and participate in this life, many would opt out and say 'no'. I believe that because people are alive, they have evolved the mindset of prolife through indoctrination, institutions, family, and other constructs while growing up. But back to my point, if prolifers only accept suicide and CTB is a valid option, all this mess and suffering in life would never have been present to begin with.

If we lived in a world where society, government, and the masses respected the right to die and treats suicide not as a mental illness or irrational act, but one with rationality and a personal choice based on bodily autonomy, human dignity; then there would be no need for this discussion or even forums or issues about suicide and the right to die. People would be able to legally, voluntarily choose death with peaceful and dignified ways to go about it. There would be no trauma to the survivors and loved ones, there would be less violence overall, people who want to participate in life would do so voluntarily and on their own volition, being able to stop participating at any given time, without consequence. But sadly, until we live in such an utopia, there will always be suffering, and in worst cases, collateral damage to unwilling participants due to the lack of a peaceful, dignified exit for those who don't wish to participate in the game of life.

 

[Euthanza]

This is something that recently crossed my mind. Back in the days (prior to before I left and also before the original owners handed ownership to the new admin here), I recall Serge and Marquis (or mostly Marquis) mention something about the existence of this forum/platform and having a voice, a safe space to be able to freely talk about. This is also prior to the awful, disingenuous journalists from the news organization NYT, by slandering and misrepresenting what this platform and safe space stands for.

With that said, I think there is just one thing that (of course they (prolifers) would never do...) if prolifers did, then it would indeed solve ALL our problems, sentience and existence itself. This would be just to accept suicide is a permanent solution to ALL (not temporary) problem(s). Similar to the cliché and trite statement, our problems are far from temporary, especially if it is life itself. Prolifers would rather revel in delusions, false hope, and deny any meaningful, honest, open dialogue about the right to die and suicide being a 'rational' option for people. I arrived at this realization due to the fact that during non-sentience (most of the time before our sentience and also the indefinite amount of time before the end of time - after our deaths) there were no problems, no pleasure, no pain and suffering, just nothingness. There is nothing inherently negative nor positive being non-sentient. In fact, I believe if all non-sentient beings prior to sentience had the ability and choice (before they existed) to choose whether to be born and participate in this life, many would opt out and say 'no'. I believe that because people are alive, they have evolved the mindset of prolife through indoctrination, institutions, family, and other constructs while growing up. But back to my point, if prolifers only accept suicide and CTB is a valid option, all this mess and suffering in life would never have been present to begin with.

If we lived in a world where society, government, and the masses respected the right to die and treats suicide not as a mental illness or irrational act, but one with rationality and a personal choice based on bodily autonomy, human dignity; then there would be no need for this discussion or even forums or issues about suicide and the right to die. People would be able to legally, voluntarily choose death with peaceful and dignified ways to go about it. There would be no trauma to the survivors and loved ones, there would be less violence overall, people who want to participate in life would do so voluntarily and on their own volition, being able to stop participating at any given time, without consequence. But sadly, until we live in such an utopia, there will always be suffering, and in worst cases, collateral damage to unwilling participants due to the lack of a peaceful, dignified exit for those who don't wish to participate in the game of life.

Next month, September 10th world suicide prevention day, wtf are they celebrating? Failed attempts, duh!! I fucking hate it.

Let's refute those suicide watch bingo:

* suicide is permanent solution to all problems, same thing with death, but in assisted suicide there's peace and dignity, while 90% natural deaths are eventually slow and horrible (only 10% people dying in 2 hours - 2 days).
* suicide prevention is temporary solution to permanent problems.
* suicide is not the answer --> Well, suicide is the question, the answer is yes please assisted.
* It gets better --> No you don't know me, you have no idea what are my circumstances, the default assumption for men is ignorance, nothing has been changed for me, so the story repeats itself.
* Your life matters --> No, you're too busy loving your own life to understand and respect my choice.
* ... etc

 

[TAW122]

Next month, September 10th world suicide prevention day, wtf are they celebrating? Failed attempts, duh!! I fucking hate it.

Let's refute those suicide watch bingo:

* suicide is permanent solution to all problems, same thing with death, but in assisted suicide there's peace and dignity, while 90% natural deaths are eventually slow and horrible (only 10% people dying in 2 hours - 2 days).
* suicide prevention is temporary solution to permanent problems.
* suicide is not the answer --> Well, suicide is the question, the answer is yes please assisted.
* It gets better --> No you don't know me, you have no idea what are my circumstances, the default assumption for men is ignorance, nothing has been changed for me, so the story repeats itself.
* Your life matters --> No, you're too busy loving life to understand and respect my choice.
* ... etc

Oh that's true, we are only 1 month away from that dreadful world suicide prevention event!
Anyways, I do believe that this year will be super cringy especially with the new 988 number rollout. I'm guessing prolifers will have some hayday throwing various spins on the new simplified hotline and worshiping it like the epic solution to suicide prevention. These prolife bastards really know no limits to their cringiness and arrogance.

 

[Hollowillow]

This is something that recently crossed my mind. Back in the days (prior to before I left and also before the original owners handed ownership to the new admin here), I recall Serge and Marquis (or mostly Marquis) mention something about the existence of this forum/platform and having a voice, a safe space to be able to freely talk about. This is also prior to the awful, disingenuous journalists from the news organization NYT, by slandering and misrepresenting what this platform and safe space stands for.

With that said, I think there is just one thing that (of course they (prolifers) would never do...) if prolifers did, then it would indeed solve ALL our problems, sentience and existence itself. This would be just to accept suicide is a permanent solution to ALL (not temporary) problem(s). Similar to the cliché and trite statement, our problems are far from temporary, especially if it is life itself. Prolifers would rather revel in delusions, false hope, and deny any meaningful, honest, open dialogue about the right to die and suicide being a 'rational' option for people. I arrived at this realization due to the fact that during non-sentience (most of the time before our sentience and also the indefinite amount of time before the end of time - after our deaths) there were no problems, no pleasure, no pain and suffering, just nothingness. There is nothing inherently negative nor positive being non-sentient. In fact, I believe if all non-sentient beings prior to sentience had the ability and choice (before they existed) to choose whether to be born and participate in this life, many would opt out and say 'no'. I believe that because people are alive, they have evolved the mindset of prolife through indoctrination, institutions, family, and other constructs while growing up. But back to my point, if prolifers only accept suicide and CTB is a valid option, all this mess and suffering in life would never have been present to begin with.

If we lived in a world where society, government, and the masses respected the right to die and treats suicide not as a mental illness or irrational act, but one with rationality and a personal choice based on bodily autonomy, human dignity; then there would be no need for this discussion or even forums or issues about suicide and the right to die. People would be able to legally, voluntarily choose death with peaceful and dignified ways to go about it. There would be no trauma to the survivors and loved ones, there would be less violence overall, people who want to participate in life would do so voluntarily and on their own volition, being able to stop participating at any given time, without consequence. But sadly, until we live in such an utopia, there will always be suffering, and in worst cases, collateral damage to unwilling participants due to the lack of a peaceful, dignified exit for those who don't wish to participate in the game of life.

The prolifers, psychiatry, government & corporations will never admit that our pain is valid. That society is worse than death. That they failed us, abused us like monsters. Their ego would die harder than us.

Next month, September 10th world suicide prevention day, wtf are they celebrating? Failed attempts, duh!! I fucking hate it.

Let's refute those suicide watch bingo:

* suicide is permanent solution to all problems, same thing with death, but in assisted suicide there's peace and dignity, while 90% natural deaths are eventually slow and horrible (only 10% people dying in 2 hours - 2 days).
* suicide prevention is temporary solution to permanent problems.
* suicide is not the answer --> Well, suicide is the question, the answer is yes please assisted.
* It gets better --> No you don't know me, you have no idea what are my circumstances, the default assumption for men is ignorance, nothing has been changed for me, so the story repeats itself.
* Your life matters --> No, you're too busy loving your own life to understand and respect my choice.
* ... etc

You inspired me a "joke". How are Prolifers preventing suicide. Making life bearable, curing diseases? Or trapping us in a box or with dope? Their slogan should be:

"The only way to prevent suicide is to prevent birth, wear a condom & make abortion legal again."

I was an unwanted baby, being born unloved gave me a life worse than death. And I felt pain a lot. I'm very pro death.

 

[obafgkm]

Societies make certain things difficult to obtain so that only the privileged ones can have access. People gain power from being the gateekeepers.

If euthanasia becomes widely available people will adjust to it and develop ways to protect themselves and their families according to their own values.

People used to spend hours at the bus stations and airports to say goodbye because going away was rare, writing letters was slow. It was sad as if they would never see each other again. Today people don't even read every post of their friends, nor care how their relatives are doing half a world away.

It's all very cultural. Imagine a kid planning a ctb party, having N ready from his parents, invites all his classmates but none wants to come. He might then become very upset and give up the idea to ctb.

 

[Euthanza]

It's all very cultural. Imagine a kid planning a ctb party, having N ready from his parents, invites all his classmates but none wants to come. He might then become very upset and give up the idea to ctb.

Never thought such plot twist lol, if the kid is introvert he'll go no matter what, but if he's extrovert he might pursue a revenge before go haha

 

[FuneralCry]

I think that in my case the problem is life itself. Life is the cause of all our suffering after all and I could never want to live no matter what. Pro lifers are very delusional and it's cruel and selfish to expect someone to suffer until old age just to die eventually.

There is no real point to living and to me, there could never be anything wrong with suicide. Life itself is completely unnecessary and dying removes what is the cause of all our problems in the first place and the dead cannot suffer, only the living can. I just think that life should be lived only if that is what the person wants. The world would be a better place if suicide was accepted as a rational solution to end suffering.

 

[Doombox]

I've mentioned this in other threads and no one has ever responded: If suicide is accepted and legal, then the solution to an individual's or group's problems becomes for them to kill themselves rather than for society to seek change. People living in poverty? Well they can just kill themselves if they don't like it. I understand the world you envision, but it's human nature to weaponize our tools.

 

[Euthanza]

I've mentioned this in other threads and no one has ever responded: If suicide is accepted and legal, then the solution to an individual's or group's problems becomes for them to kill themselves rather than for society to seek change. People living in poverty? Well they can just kill themselves if they don't like it. I understand the world you envision, but it's human nature to weaponize our tools.

I can't see anything wrong with that. Poverty is one of the main permanent problems in thousands of years of human history.
Let's take a look at Dubai, one of the richest city on earth they said has zero poverty, but if you take a look at the details, there are many below poverty lines low paying jobs only filled by workers from abroad; Approximately three out of four expatriate suicides in Dubai were committed by Indians. Those jobs they created sometimes very shitty, like trucking shits of the riches (literally) because the city is lacking of proper sewer system. The city built on modern-day slavery but of course it's not the only problem. They don't accept suicide and don't seek change.

 

[Doombox]

I can't see anything wrong with that. Poverty is one of the main permanent problems in thousands of years of human history.
Let's take a look at Dubai, one of the richest city on earth they said has zero poverty, but if you take a look at the details, there are many below poverty lines low paying jobs only filled by workers from abroad; Approximately three out of four expatriate suicides in Dubai were committed by Indians. Those jobs they created sometimes very shitty, like trucking shits of the riches (literally) because the city is lacking of proper sewer system. The city built on modern-day slavery but of course it's not the only problem. They don't accept suicide and don't seek change.

Can you imagine living in poverty and wishing there were programs that might help you better yourself because you don't in fact want to die but instead being dismissed with, "Go kill yourself"? You think it would be better to embrace suicide for the masses than to seek change, if you could choose between one or the other?

 

[ianista]

I've mentioned this in other threads and no one has ever responded: If suicide is accepted and legal, then the solution to an individual's or group's problems becomes for them to kill themselves rather than for society to seek change. People living in poverty? Well they can just kill themselves if they don't like it. I understand the world you envision, but it's human nature to weaponize our tools.

I somehow see your point or what your trying to say. But i think its not really working, because:
ctb oder being suicidal is not something that everyone will be or do. I think its more how it was with left-handedness: While it was somehow forbidden and teachers/school were trying to force kids using their right hand, lefthanded people were around some % of society. After it got widely accepted, the % increased but soon plateaued at around 10%. I expect something similar to happen: Wide availability and legality of ctb would increase the suicides, but it will plateau soon. Its not that entire generations or communitys would ctb.

And on the fighting-discussions: I think its important to realize that life is never: Either kill yourself or fight for change / more justice. Not only can you be in a miserable situation and have a lot of energy to organize with other people and fight whatever you think is wrong. You can also fight your whole life for or against something and still in the end ctb, whenever the end is. I mean you can even fight, loose some comrades to ctb and this can give you even more energy to continue the fight you started.

Fighting for a more liveable world, be it for example against poverty, was never something the state or some rich/powerfull people allowed the "masses" to do. So if the argument "well you can just kill yourself" comes, it will not stick. Why should it? If people have a vision and can organize, they will fight for it.

 

[obafgkm]

Can you imagine living in poverty and wishing there were programs that might help you better yourself because you don't in fact want to die but instead being dismissed with, "Go kill yourself"? You think it would be better to embrace suicide for the masses than to seek change, if you could choose between one or the other?

If some pets, horses, donkeys, cattle, dogs, whatever could die easily, the owner of course would treat them more kindly and wouldn't push them too hard.

The same applies to society. If the rulers and prolifers want people to live, they really should make the society livable to those who think it is unlivable. They should not just pay lip service and give false hope.

It is unreasonable to assume suicidal people haven't tried to find a solution or seek change, and blame them for not trying. They are actually the victims.

There is no "if you could choose between one or the other?" No choice. No alternative. That's why people feel hopeless and want to die.

 

[Doombox]

Fighting for a more liveable world, be it for example against poverty, was never something the state or some rich/powerfull people allowed the "masses" to do. So if the argument "well you can just kill yourself" comes, it will not stick. Why should it? If people have a vision and can organize, they will fight for it.

The USA has a lot of social programs meant to help people. I'm concerned that the motivation to develop those programs could be threatened by the easy answer of suicide.

It is unreasonable to assume suicidal people haven't tried to find a solution or seek change, and blame them for not trying. They are actually the victims.

There is no "if you could choose between one or the other?" No choice. No alternative. That's why people feel hopeless and want to die.

I don't know how we got here. This is all hypothetical anyway. We are nowhere near having a society where suicide is a free choice. My only point is that there are consequences, sometimes unforeseen, of any proposed societal shift. That's all I'm saying.

 

[obafgkm]

I somehow see your point or what your trying to say. But i think its not really working, because:
ctb oder being suicidal is not something that everyone will be or do. I think its more how it was with left-handedness: While it was somehow forbidden and teachers/school were trying to force kids using their right hand, lefthanded people were around some % of society. After it got widely accepted, the % increased but soon plateaued at around 10%. I expect something similar to happen: Wide availability and legality of ctb would increase the suicides, but it will plateau soon. Its not that entire generations or communitys would ctb.

And on the fighting-discussions: I think its important to realize that life is never: Either kill yourself or fight for change / more justice. Not only can you be in a miserable situation and have a lot of energy to organize with other people and fight whatever you think is wrong. You can also fight your whole life for or against something and still in the end ctb, whenever the end is. I mean you can even fight, loose some comrades to ctb and this can give you even more energy to continue the fight you started.

Fighting for a more liveable world, be it for example against poverty, was never something the state or some rich/powerfull people allowed the "masses" to do. So if the argument "well you can just kill yourself" comes, it will not stick. Why should it? If people have a vision and can organize, they will fight for it.

Making peaceful methods more accessable might increase the number of reckless college students killing themselves by a few. But it would release many thousands others from further suffering.

If a few more young deaths are scary, think "the choking game" on TikTok. It is exactly an assisted suicide/ killing method. Probably no adults can get away with "just playing the choking game."

 

[Euthanza]

Can you imagine living in poverty and wishing there were programs that might help you better yourself because you don't in fact want to die but instead being dismissed with, "Go kill yourself"? You think it would be better to embrace suicide for the masses than to seek change, if you could choose between one or the other?

That happens in today system and society. Dubai is an example of reality, not an imagination.

They don't accept suicide and don't seek change. Being poor in Dubai means ones have just been dismissed entirely.

 

[obafgkm]

Never thought such plot twist lol, if the kid is introvert he'll go no matter what, but if he's extrovert he might pursue a revenge before go haha

The tendency to ctb is probably affected by social condition, culture, peer influences, personality, and many other factors than the availability of ctb methods. The latter won't suddenly make non-suicidal people suicidal, or vice versa.

It's like saying sleeping pills made people suicidal in the 1960s. But in fact, it was the sleeping pills that allowed already suicidal people to carry out their will.

Making ctb methods difficult to get only traps suicidal people in a state of frustration and unecessary suffering.