BerryCakes

BerryCakes

Local Case Study
Sep 20, 2020
94
Reading how you see social workes was not only sad but also kinda got to me. If you were right, I'd have to be a horrible person too. My former and current coworkers, and my classmates would all be bad people. I know that's not true, so I offered you my professional perspective, that social workers are not inherently evil, which I stand by.
At no point did I mean, the social workers you have encountered, didn't treat you unfairly, or the experiences you made were invalid.

Social work is a profession with international standards, so it's not fundamentally different from country to country.
If the family had that many safe options, they probably would have taken them, just like you would have.
The basics of children's rights, aren't that different either, and the covid situation is even worse in the States, than it is over here. So putting the boy in your dorm was most likely done out of necessity, not ignorance, or to mess with you. Acknowledging that, isn't meant to downplay you fears either.
Fear just isn't always the best compass, even when rooted in real life trauma.


Wow
See, that's the thing. You're taking my vent post not only extremely personally, but spreading me thin enough that I'm apparently also talking about your peers, too. I don't know you. I don't want to talk to somebody who cares more about defending their profession than acknowledging my feelings, either. I didn't make this post so you could "convince" me to try and see how it's ~not so bad~ because this one person on the Internet said so.

If it helps you get things more. How'd you think somebody making a post about their horrible experiences with men would feel if a person immediately came down on them and said "well, NOT ALL MEN ARE LIKE THAT" and then gets even more defensive when told that those comments don't help or mean anything? Your lack of ability to see nuance actually just proves my point more than anything.
Not everything is about you.

Leave the kid alone, he doesn't need some emo harassing him.
I was waiting for you to speak up! Goodness. Don't be so shy!
 
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Dr Iron Arc

Dr Iron Arc

Into the Unknown
Feb 10, 2020
20,740
I think even if anyone wanted to give this 16 year old dude a huge benefit of the doubt, it's still not good for him to be there because while his size makes it seem like he could fight off any women he didn't want, if some other woman was crazy enough he could still be a 'victim' of statutory rape which would probably also be its own huge legal headache for that facility entirely since they let it happen. I don't know what exactly else they could do but it seems this was definitely not the right decision to make regardless.

But like I said, knowing 16 year old dudes I think he's more likely to be the perpetrator of something bad than the other way around. Him being 16 also means he might be more likely to get away with a slap on the wrist so it's right for the OP to be wary and want to end this situation.
 
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mooncake

mooncake

Student
Aug 7, 2020
116
See, that's the thing. You're taking my vent post not only extremely personally, but spreading me thin enough that I'm apparently also talking about your peers, too. I don't know you. I don't want to talk to somebody who cares more about defending their profession than acknowledging my feelings, either. I didn't make this post so you could "convince" me to try and see how it's ~not so bad~ because this one person on the Internet said so.

If it helps you get things more. How'd you think somebody making a post about their horrible experiences with men would feel if a person immediately came down on them and said "well, NOT ALL MEN ARE LIKE THAT" and then gets even more defensive when told that those comments don't help or mean anything? Your lack of ability to see nuance actually just proves my point more than anything.

Yes I took it a little personally, especially after your first reply and you saying your were getting gaslit by social workers on here. it's a tough job, that's usually more draining than it is rewarding, depending on your field. So being confronted with such general resentment on the site that I also use as my safe space, kinda stung, not gonna a lie.

None the less, I wanted to support you by showing you the nuance I was seeing in your situation, because I do care about your feelings. I hoped, that if I explained my perspective on why things might have gone the way they did, it might help you see past your fear. Didn't work, I get it. That doesn't make a gaslighter though. Also, I didn't care more about defending my profession. I cared some, but it wasn't at all my main concern. I just saw the curicumstances (not you feelings) differently.

If a man commented "not all men" on a thread specifically about the men who abused me, I'd remind him of that fact, that I didn't "all men".

Anyways, I hope you'll find a place where you are and feel safe.
 
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the witch’s lament

the witch’s lament

Member
Sep 5, 2020
88
I am sad to hear of your circumstances. if you are feeling threatened, hopefully there are multiple resources at your shelter in which you can turn to. I can't say for sure. your safety is paramount. what I can say for sure is that 16 year olds are children. children are capable of horrible things and I think that if he poses a visible safety risk other than his height, a change of situation is required. however, he is just a boy. he's in the shelter for a reason. maybe not the same reason as you, but it speaks to the possible severity of his situation having found himself in a mostly women's shelter. seems like he had nowhere else to go. maybe have a conversation with him? if he is innately intimidating then don't take the chance, but he is a person too.

as far as your cat goes, I hope they end up in the scenario best suited to care for them. I love cats so I know how it is. just make sure if/when you do take them with you that they are constantly fed and are seen to. it seems as though you're dedicated based off your previous financial dedications to them. but don't put an animal in a worse spot due to emotional attachment.

I hope things turn up soon. I am always here if you need to talk. stay well.
 
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BerryCakes

BerryCakes

Local Case Study
Sep 20, 2020
94
Yes I took it a little personally, especially after your first reply and you saying your were getting gaslit by social workers on here. it's a tough job, that's usually more draining than it is rewarding, depending on your field. So being confronted with such general resentment on the site that I also use as my safe space, kinda stung, not gonna a lie.

None the less, I wanted to support you by showing you the nuance I was seeing in your situation, because I do care about your feelings. I hoped, that if I explained my perspective on why things might have gone the way they did, it might help you see past your fear. Didn't work, I get it. That doesn't make a gaslighter though. Also, I didn't care more about defending my profession. I cared some, but it wasn't at all my main concern. I just saw the curicumstances (not you feelings) differently.

If a man commented "not all men" on a thread specifically about the men who abused me, I'd remind him of that fact, that I didn't "all men".

Anyways, I hope you'll find a place where you are and feel safe.
Funny you mention that. I never said "all social workers" in my original post, either. I just said to not let them bully you.

At least you're being kind. Sorry, I just don't really understand you. Maybe one day I will.
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
So @BerryCakes, what kind of vibe do you get from this teenage male? Like, what's his demeanor, his posture, or what does he look at? What was your initial gut reaction when you first saw him? Not your reaction to his presence, but to him.
 
BerryCakes

BerryCakes

Local Case Study
Sep 20, 2020
94
I am sad to hear of your circumstances. if you are feeling threatened, hopefully there are multiple resources at your shelter in which you can turn to. I can't say for sure. your safety is paramount. what I can say for sure is that 16 year olds are children. children are capable of horrible things and I think that if he poses a visible safety risk other than his height, a change of situation is required. however, he is just a boy. he's in the shelter for a reason. maybe not the same reason as you, but it speaks to the possible severity of his situation having found himself in a mostly women's shelter. seems like he had nowhere else to go. maybe have a conversation with him? if he is innately intimidating then don't take the chance, but he is a person too.

as far as your cat goes, I hope they end up in the scenario best suited to care for them. I love cats so I know how it is. just make sure if/when you do take them with you that they are constantly fed and are seen to. it seems as though you're dedicated based off your previous financial dedications to them. but don't put an animal in a worse spot due to emotional attachment.

I hope things turn up soon. I am always here if you need to talk. stay well.
Don't worry, I'd much rather give up the cat than have it live a horrible life. I most likely will if I can't find a pet-friendly homeless shelter to stay in. I'll make sure that the organization I give her to is no kill. (Or, well, only euthanizes when it's called for.)

16-year-olds aren't really children, though. They're sort of in this awkward phase between childhood and adulthood. They're, well, teenagers. I'm not sure why you can see his height as a safety risk, but not the fact that he's innately stronger than every single person here by a large degree.

There are better shelters for him out there. I'm in California, for God's sake. There's no shortage of social support here. It's not like we live out in the countryside of Russia. Clearly, whoever's working this family's case doesn't give a shit anymore.
 
mooncake

mooncake

Student
Aug 7, 2020
116
I think even if anyone wanted to give this 16 year old dude a huge benefit of the doubt, it's still not good for him to be there because while his size makes it seem like he could fight off any women he didn't want, if some other woman was crazy enough he could still be a 'victim' of statutory rape which would probably also be its own huge legal headache for that facility entirely since they let it happen. I don't know what exactly else they could do but it seems this was definitely not the right decision to make regardless.

Not immediately assuming that any 16 year old boy is dangerous, is not giving him a huge benefit of the doubt, but the normal amount of benifit of the doubt.
Sure he might have the phisical capability to do harm, but that doesn't mean he will assault someone in the homeless shelter he is staying at with his family.
This was mostly like the decision they had to make by law! The family probably can't be housed in a shelter for adult men, because the have children (including the 16 year old) and the spots in family shelter were all taken. You make it seem like housing for the homeless in America is so greatly funded, that the homeless get to chose from a catalog where to stay.

But like I said, knowing 16 year old dudes I think he's more likely to be the perpetrator of something bad than the other way around. Him being 16 also means he might be more likely to get away with a slap on the wrist so it's right for the OP to be wary and want to end this situation.

What are you even basing those assumptions on? Because no data that I have ever seen reflects that 16 year olds are more likely to assault someone.
16 year olds, usually can't be housed in shelters for adult men, because Data suggests, that they are far more likely to be to be victimized them selves.
You make it seem like all men AND boys are animals incapable of controlling their urges. My guess is, that the first thought, that came to this 16 year old KID'S mind, the KIDwho is homeless with is family, and was put a shelter dorm with multiple strangers, during a world wide pandemic, is do sexually assault anyone in there.
And believing otherwise, withought any other threatinv behavior be a huge assumptions of guilt based on fear and his hight.
 
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the witch’s lament

the witch’s lament

Member
Sep 5, 2020
88
Don't worry, I'd much rather give up the cat than have it live a horrible life. I most likely will if I can't find a pet-friendly homeless shelter to stay in. I'll make sure that the organization I give her to is no kill. (Or, well, only euthanizes when it's called for.)

16-year-olds aren't really children, though. They're sort of in this awkward phase between childhood and adulthood. They're, well, teenagers. I'm not sure why you can see his height as a safety risk, but not the fact that he's innately stronger than every single person here by a large degree.

There are better shelters for him out there. I'm in California, for God's sake. There's no shortage of social support here. It's not like we live out in the countryside of Russia. Clearly, whoever's working this family's case doesn't give a shit anymore.
I am confused by your constant referencing living in other countries as being a less than ideal situation to yours. the U.S. is not perfect, and I think the fact that you're in a homeless shelter is proof of that. why do you need to state that it might be worse elsewhere (you mentioned Germany, Russia) to somehow come to terms with a situation that you yourself have little control over? similarly to how you claim conditions in these other places are.

you mentioned the boy's height as being a huge contribution to his ability to subdue other women in the shelter. it seemed like that was a concern of yours so I responded to that. I don't think it's right to have a male in an all female shelter. but times are really tough right now, for everyone. you take what you can get when you can. unless he has been flagrant with his ability to assault you, then maybe just ignore him until he is relocated.
 
BerryCakes

BerryCakes

Local Case Study
Sep 20, 2020
94
Not immediately assuming that any 16 year old boy is dangerous, is not giving him a huge benefit of the doubt, but the normal amount of benifit of the doubt.
Sure he might have the phisical capability to do harm, but that doesn't mean he will assault someone in the homeless shelter he is staying at with his family.
This was mostly like the decision they had to make by law! The family probably can't be housed in a shelter for adult men, because the have children (including the 16 year old) and the spots in family shelter were all taken. You make it seem like housing for the homeless in America is so greatly funded, that the homeless get to chose from a catalog where to stay.



What are you even basing those assumptions on? Because no data that I have ever seen reflects that 16 year olds are more likely to assault someone.
16 year olds, usually can't be housed in shelters for adult men, because Data suggests, that they are far more likely to be to be victimized them selves.
You make it seem like all men AND boys are animals incapable of controlling their urges. My guess is, that the first thought, that came to this 16 year old KID'S mind, the KIDwho is homeless with is family, and was put a shelter dorm with multiple strangers, during a world wide pandemic, is do sexually assault anyone in there.
And believing otherwise, withought any other threatinv behavior be a huge assumptions of guilt based on fear and his hight.
bro stop
I am confused by your constant referencing living in other countries as being a less than ideal situation to yours. the U.S. is not perfect, and I think the fact that you're in a homeless shelter is proof of that. why do you need to state that it might be worse elsewhere (you mentioned Germany, Russia) to somehow come to terms with a situation that you yourself have little control over? similarly to how you claim conditions in these other places are.

you mentioned the boy's height as being a huge contribution to his ability to subdue other women in the shelter. it seemed like that was a concern of yours so I responded to that. I don't think it's right to have a male in an all female shelter. but times are really tough right now, for everyone. you take what you can get when you can. unless he has been flagrant with his ability to assault you, then maybe just ignore him until he is relocated.
I never said anything about Germany being in a worse off situation than the USA. I never even said that ALL of Russia is in a worse off situation than the USA. I just said that in terms of the fact that the Asian part of Russia is very sparesly populated. At least, for the most part. A place with less people will have less resources, right? Don't put words in my mouth.

I don't want to talk about "the boy" anymore. If you don't understand why I'm rightfully paranoid, you never will.
 
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the witch’s lament

the witch’s lament

Member
Sep 5, 2020
88
A place with less people will have less resources, right? Don't put words in my mouth.
I don't want to put words in your mouth. I don't want to pretend like I understand how you feel. but you saying less people = less resources is just not true. if that is what you're saying. capitalism is a sickness, and the fact that you have to be in a shelter is a symptom of it.
 
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BerryCakes

BerryCakes

Local Case Study
Sep 20, 2020
94
I don't want to put words in your mouth. I don't want to pretend like I understand how you feel. but you saying less people = less resources is just not true. if that is what you're saying. capitalism is a sickness, and the fact that you have to be in a shelter is a symptom of it.
Well, generally. It tends to be. At least in terms of how things in, well, capitalist societies work. I remember once living in a town that had nothing but a small food bank in terms of social services.

I'm not sure how I feel about your statement on capitalism. Not necessarily because I think you're wrong, but I hate that I have no idea whether you're an anarchist, communist, socialist, or something else entirely. I'm too curious.
 
the witch’s lament

the witch’s lament

Member
Sep 5, 2020
88
Well, generally. It tends to be. At least in terms of how things in, well, capitalist societies work. I remember once living in a town that had nothing but a small food bank in terms of social services.

I'm not sure how I feel about your statement on capitalism. Not necessarily because I think you're wrong, but I hate that I have no idea whether you're an anarchist, communist, socialist, or something else entirely. I'm too curious.
I am a humanitarian. don't let your curiosity get the best of you. the pursuit of the truth often takes detours around the obvious.
 
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mooncake

mooncake

Student
Aug 7, 2020
116
@mooncake, I say directly and honestly, not with anger but with admitted feelings of irritation like I've been scratched by something abrasive, the post wasn't about you, nor about what goes on in your country. Even though you weren't talking to me, it troubled me the way you spoke to the OP about the decisions "we" have to make objectively, and explaining to her what she's experiencing and how she's incorrectly interpreting it. I feel like the us vs them social service environments I described in my previous comment here got brought to this thread. I've sat on both sides of the desk, and the OP is, to me, speaking from a self-empowered place of self-advocacy and self-respect.

I'm not defending her, she's perfectly capable of doing so for herself. I speak because I felt your words, too. I felt like you were putting the OP in her place. I respect myself, I respect you, and I respect us both enough to say that it didn't feel okay.

I know that it wasn't about me and I didn't want it to be.
I tried to offer support in the way that I did, I felt misunderstood but still wanted to help, so I tried to clarify. Then I saw I was being called a gaslighter, which I found actually insulting.

In no way did I want to explain to her how she felt, which I clarified multiple times. From where I was standing I could see nothing but fear coming from her and tried maybe help her see something outside if that, instead of confirming preconceived notions.

Maybe I've misunderstood this forum
 
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GoodPersonEffed

GoodPersonEffed

Brevity is my middle name, but my name was TL
Jan 11, 2020
6,727
I know that it wasn't about me and I didn't want it to be.
I tried to offer support in the way that I did, I felt misunderstood but still wanted to help, so I tried to clarify. Then I saw I was being called a gaslighter, which I found actually insulting.

In no way did I want to explain to her how she felt, which I clarified multiple times. From where I was standing I could see nothing but fear coming from her and tried maybe help her see something outside if that, instead of confirming preconceived notions.

As I said, I've sat on both sides of the desk, and I can genuinely say, with no intention to insult you, and I hope you can hear this, my impression from your words I've read closely is that you were acting within a framework of preconceived notions -- within the power of international social work, from a position that unintentionally infantilizes others in a disempowered position from your higher up position. I believe you that you sincerely mean well, and I don't know that you're in a place to hear heartfelt and knowledgeable constructive criticism without taking it as an assault on your good heart and on your deeply held and admirable beliefs.

Like, I wish you could go undercover and apply for social services and feel what it's like to not be in the privileged position you don't recognize you're in, how no matter how educated and skilled and perceptive you are, you will be treated as having no individual power, no authority to speak up for yourself, nor be taken as an equal person who knows your own experience, value, equal needs and inherent right to respect. I wish you could go undercover and spend two weeks in a DV or homeless shelter and be stripped of the ostensibly natural social worth and importance that you have, that you matter, that you're paid attention to, listened to, and that your opinion and rights and power over your own well-being carries weight -- stripped by people who are trying to help you, and really believe they are acting from that place.

I say this recognizing myself also. I get regularly humbled on this forum. I have a sense of confidence and rightness, I have frameworks that guide me, but I can look back at things I've said to others and recognize I sometimes have a similar higher, privileged, blurry perspective when I think I've seen so clearly, when I've been so right. It's always uncomfortable to recognize it, but I also want to keep continuing to grow and improve, so while it stings me and briefly shames me when I recognize I've been in error, my confidence and good heart also serve me to get through, honor my humbling experience, and use it to help build me to be at least a little better of a fellow human than I was before, and at the least, catch myself more quickly when I'm experiencing being "right." It's certainly helping me heal my perfectionism issues! :pfff: Anyhow, I'm not saying this as an indictment of you but of my self in what I perceive as a relatively comparable position, and with compassion for both of us. I recognize the nobility of your profession, as well as some of its blind spots, and I'm learning to recognize the same things about myself, someone who is noble but also has blind spots, and who can do unintended harm when my heart and intentions are good. I'm human. I make errors. I try to build on my strengths and goodness to improve as best I can, and I will never achieve perfection.

A quick aside for clarification, I didn't say you told her how she felt. I used that word a lot in my comment to you, but in reference to me. I can see how that misperception may have happened.

I wish you well. It may be uncomfortable between us for this moment, but it will pass, and I hold no ill feelings toward you. Wherever I have communicated imperfectly, I apologize, I truly mean good and not harm, and I promise I'm doing my heartfelt best.
 
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Wisdom3_1-9

he/him/his
Jul 19, 2020
1,954
I appreciate the recent comment from GFE. As someone who has never been on either side of the coin and as someone who is a late observer to the conversation, I can objectively say that there have been some great points made by everyone. This was actually a fabulous opportunity for everyone to learn and broaden their perspective; perhaps even spark a new important discussion topic. That's my takeaway as a teacher, anyway. I hope we can keep it that way and not devolve into arguments that weaken the SS experience for those involved.

I can empathize with both sides. I understand how social workers have very challenging decisions to make with limited resources and with so many considerations at play. I also understand that a 16-year old boy is still a minor and is at risk in an adult male shelter. I also completely understand how the presence of such a physically towering male can be concerning to the residents of a women's shelter, many of whom may be victims of abuse by similar figures. I also understand that this particular 16-year old may be completely harmless. I also understand that whether he is harmless or not is completely irrelevant to the other residents who see his presence as threatening, and rightfully so based on their past experiences. Everyone's voice in this thread has had great value. I wish we could listen to each other more and learn from each other, more so than focus on defending our own points. Yes, our own points are important to us, but if we never listen to anything else, we'll never actually learn anything. That's the teacher in me coming out again.

One of the takeaways for me is that there are limited resources available for these "men in the middle." It sounds like there are few suitable places for them, especially if family unification is important. Were there actions the shelter could have taken prior to his admittance that may have made the situation more palatable for the residents? Could residents have been consulted before his admittance? What are the ethical implications of involving residents in such decisions? There are other takeaways as well, such as how do limited resources for social services impact not only their efficacy, but faith in the system and in the actors? So many more questions on that front as well.

Honestly, the idealist in me could see a dream situation in which the 16-year old boy is a mentor for the other children in the shelter and perhaps even a defender of women in the shelter. Perhaps his own life experiences may cause him to have deep empathy for women and mothers and feel a desire to protect and defend them. I realize this is just an idealist wish that represents a best possible scenario. Reality most often lies in the middle of two extremes, but both extremes are always possible.

I just want to end by saying I mean no disrespect to any of the commenters thus far, and I hope that's clear. I've learned a lot from reading your posts. It sounds to me like you've tried to teach other a lot through your posts as well. There's so much more to every situation beyond what we can see.
 
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Cowtipper

Member
Sep 9, 2020
13
Leave the kid alone, and go sleep under a bridge. Bigots like you are the reason things are so fucked up here. He doesn't care about, or know that you exist, and he's not the problem. If there was a better place for a family, then they would have placed them there. Nazis and Trump supporters advocate separating familys.

It seems like you're just looking for an echo chamber where people just tell you what you want to hear. I'm sure those places exist, but I don't know if it will help get you out of a shelter.
 
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BerryCakes

BerryCakes

Local Case Study
Sep 20, 2020
94
Leave the kid alone, and go sleep under a bridge. Bigots like you are the reason things are so fucked up here. He doesn't care about, or know that you exist, and he's not the problem. If there was a better place for a family, then they would have placed them there. Nazis and Trump supporters advocate separating familys.

It seems like you're just looking for an echo chamber where people just tell you what you want to hear. I'm sure those places exist, but I don't know if it will help get you out of a shelter.
Go sleep under a bridge? lmao. My father is always going on and on about having a great grandmother who's Norwegian, so I appreciate the reference to trolls.

For someone who's likely never been in my position, you're awfully judgemental, yeah? I'm figuring things out on my own. I just came here to vent.

Anyways, just let this thread die. It's served its purpose.
 
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noaccount

Enlightened
Oct 26, 2019
1,099
Reading how you see social workes was not only sad but also kinda got to me. If you were right, I'd have to be a horrible person too. My former and current coworkers, and my classmates would all be bad people. I know that's not true, so I offered you my professional perspective, that social workers are not inherently evil, which I stand by.
At no point did I mean, the social workers you have encountered, didn't treat you unfairly, or the experiences you made were invalid.

Social work is a profession with international standards, so it's not fundamentally different from country to country.
If the family had that many safe options, they probably would have taken them, just like you would have.
The basics of children's rights, aren't that different either, and the covid situation is even worse in the States, than it is over here. So putting the boy in your dorm was most likely done out of necessity, not ignorance, or to mess with you. Acknowledging that, isn't meant to downplay you fears either.
Fear just isn't always the best compass, even when rooted in real life trauma.

Stop. Your self-image as a social worker does not outweigh the experiences of the many, many marginalized people being harmed by these programs and institutions. Let go of your ego trip. If you want to be better, BE BETTER. It starts with questioning how you've been indoctrinated - how the field embodies classism and paternalism. It starts with being willing to value survivors' voices more than a "professional perspective." There is a reason these conversations among survivors, can often only happen WITHOUT a clinician in the room. There's a reason why professionals are known for ruining and hijacking the self-organization of the homeless, of DV survivors, of psychiatric survivors. There's a reason that these communities, and their mutual aid efforts, so desperately need autonomous spaces without the condescention of people like you.
 
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