whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
We have had some threads regarding either Hinduist or Buddhist approaches to 'enlightenment', which would be something similar to the Classical (?) Greek concept of ataraxia, but grander in scope, I think. I want to share with the users interested in such things something that's interesting, at least to me. I have been toying with this idea for some time. If we have a word for the peak of virtue or lucidity, why don't we have a concept or word for peak spiritual 'abysmation'? I say this because, as much as some parts of me have been forged through years of suffering to become more compassionate, wide-scoped and open-minded, I notice that overall I fall more into the spiritual abyss than enlightenment, and obviously most people in the forum do too.

Why would this be useful or relevant? You see, oftentimes in life we find that we can't see one extreme, but we are plunged into another, which lets us infer the other extreme should be somewhere, since our reality is dualistic, or binary, or at least our way of understanding the world is. I don't hold a simplistic, anthropomorphized, theistic worldview, but a good analogy would be to say that you have never seen God but that you know plenty about the Devil, so you imagine both entities to exist since you know at least one. Likewise, at the end of the day I personally know more about feeling alienated from others, hating them, desiring them harm, feeling hateful or ambivalent regarding life itself than to actually feel at a sentimental level that I am one with them, that I love them, that I forgive everyone etc. I understand that we are one AS AN ABSTRACTION and an abstraction only. In reality, I feel very distanced from everyone, and that's not very enlightened but rather the headspace where criminals dwell. Think about it. How do you think a serial killer felt regarding their victims? Closely related in the cosmic family of all things?

We have to be very careful with words and even concepts because they often trick people into thinking they understand stuff when they don't. Words > Ideas > Feelings. This is why a child rapist can pose as a nationally celebrated comedian for decades or a politician can bamboozle the feeble minded into thinking he is benevolent and responsible. The stupidest people cling to words, the mid-wits cling to ideas, and the ones that are really fucking serious about getting at the bottom of things look at feelings, which in judging people translates to things like 'how can we now what actually motivates someone, what are their values', 'who the person associates with', 'does the person show the correct emotions when faced with sob stories and the harship of others?' etc. Neurologically too, it's easy to see how feelings, especially base ones related to instincts are much older and more powerful than the cultural and social stuff.

So here are two examples of how I am the opposite of enlightened. I've known for years now that pornography is, for all intent and purposes, outrageously legal sexual abuse recorded for profit. I know for a fact, looking at these naked bodies, often compelled to show agressive grins as they do their thing, that what I am looking at is some kind of Samsaric epitome, like some kind of outer circle of Dante's inferno where pleasure, addiction and pain intertwine intimately. Again, the opposite of enlightenment, no doubt about it, but I can't actually stop masturbating to it. I'm enthralled, like the man and woman chained by Satan in the Devil's tarot card.

The last example, which has an humorous undertone, has to do with my encounters with a chubby, rude package carrier. You see, a year ago I was watering my garden with the headphones put on. When I heard someone screaming at me, took them out and saw the chubby carrier standing impatiently at the door. He had screamed at me disrespectfully, and when I approached and apologized because I was listening to music (I have social anxiety so often I will say the first thing that comes to mind), the carrier mockingly replied that 'It's OK, king, here is your package, here, take it. See, you, milord'. From that day on, the few times this same carrier has ended in my house I have been called chief, boss, marquis, the lot, each time with me getting menacingly closer to him with the door in between but unable to ask for respect. Today I realized that the next time he comes and talks to me like that, I will come out, confront him physically and dare him to mock me again, taking some pleasure in shoving him if need be.

For things like these, I realize I am probably more unenlightened than enlightened. I'm in the dark spiritually, just struggling not to become a 'bad person' (or kill myself), so the energy to be good just isn't there.
 
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GideonVandaleur

GideonVandaleur

Envoy of the Silence
Dec 15, 2021
123
The irony here is that this post is coming from a more enlightened position than the half-lightened lies of omission that mid-wit proponents of enlightenment have been peddling for ages. You're well written post acknowledges the reality that others deliberately shy away from out of misplaced shame.
 
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S

Smart No More

Visionary
May 5, 2021
2,734
Pretty sure selective ignorance is the opposite of enlightenment. To be self serving and to believe your own bullshit and the yes men around you because it suits your ego or quells your insecurities.
 
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whatevs

whatevs

Mining for copium in the weirdest places.
Jan 15, 2022
2,914
Pretty sure selective ignorance is the opposite of enlightenment. To be self serving and to believe your own bullshit and the yes men around you because it suits your ego or quells your insecurities.
Sounds close to the opposite of enlightenment, yes!
 
chocolatebar

chocolatebar

Paragon
Jul 11, 2021
975
The way I see it, the thing we call enlightenment if flawed and partial. I think there's some "enlightenment" in what you call abysmation, in acknowledging the creature we are, the individual creature, who seeks pleasure, survival, domination or whatever, without considering that the others are creatures just like us (without developing a theory of the mind, some might say) and ready to do anything in order to achieve what they want.

I thing these 2 opposites, enlightenment and abysmation, fit very well with the human duality. Were the only animal capable of being truly empathetic, yet, we're the animal capable of doing the most cruel actions. We're the animals with the more advanced "theory of the mind", yet, we're so selfish. We have resources and power to make life much better for everyone, yet, we won't move a finger. The list goes on and on.
I feel very distanced from everyone, and that's not very enlightened but rather the headspace where criminals dwell. Think about it. How do you think a serial killer felt regarding their victims? Closely related in the cosmic family of all things?
This makes me remember when I had the misfortune of engaging in a conversation with a psychopath. Someday, I will talk about it, but in another thread, to avoid messing this one.
 
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needforvoid_

needforvoid_

Member
Apr 18, 2022
69
I don't believe in such thing as enlightment, I think it's a concept made up in desparation, one can only fool themself.
But I guess I associate that term with having more understanding of the world, it takes off some weight.
Psychotic states are opposite of enlightment in my opinion.
You're not opposite of enlightened, you sound pretty normal. Can always try to become better, but nobody's perfect. It's a scam.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,857
Another great question. I could go two ways with it, so I will do just that.

Answer 1: The False Self's Reaction
I totally relate to your conundrum. In my case, what started as a bit of an iron curtain with most people of the opposite gender (due mainly to childhood sibling abuse) then turned into struggles relating to normies of my own gender, and ultimately bottomed out with the ultimate dualism of me the freak versus the world.

In that state, it seems that intrusive thoughts of all types run riot with insufficient counterbalance from positive interactions with others. The dark sense of identity can feed on itself and spiral to darker and darker places, potentially going right off the deep end. I am very conscious of all sorts of ethical issues but sometimes I fear I'm forcibly restraining a fiery dragon of toxicity underneath the veneer of my artificially immaculate treatment of others.

Answer 2: The Simulated Jnani
Judging, analysing or improving the individual sense of self is a dubious errand, because the mind's very nature is worldly, dualistic and illusory. Enlightenment is not a spectrum, because oneness means just that. No 'me versus other', 'good versus evil' or 'primitive versus sublime'.

It would be incorrect to look upon the jnani and see a man or woman who has achieved some state that is beyond your reach. The jnani is not human, they are the Self. And their message, repeated over and over is that you are that same Self. No effort is needed to be 'enlightened' because there is no alternative. To make this experience your own, the guidance of a realised being is needed, and earnest practices such as self-inquiry to expose the false ego and bring about its demise.
 
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Foresight

Foresight

Enlightened
Jun 14, 2019
1,397
I am very conscious of all sorts of ethical issues but sometimes I fear I'm forcibly restraining a fiery dragon of toxicity underneath the veneer of my artificially immaculate treatment of others.
Yikes I feel that :ahhha:
 
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motel rooms

motel rooms

Survivor of incest. Gay. Please don't PM me.
Apr 13, 2021
7,086
For things like these, I realize I am probably more unenlightened than enlightened. I'm in the dark spiritually, just struggling not to become a 'bad person' (or kill myself), so the energy to be good just isn't there.

Have you tried meditation? :))

200.gif
Trust Believe GIF
 
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motel rooms

motel rooms

Survivor of incest. Gay. Please don't PM me.
Apr 13, 2021
7,086
Yeah but I am unable to be consistent, I want to try again though.

You must also cultivate loving-kindness:

"May I be well and healthy
May those near to me be well and healthy
May those neutral to me be well and healthy
May all living beings be well and healthy
May even the fat package prick be well and healthy" :haha:
 
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Dot

Dot

Info abt typng styl on prfle.
Sep 26, 2021
2,833
We have had some threads regarding either Hinduist or Buddhist approaches to 'enlightenment', which would be something similar to the Classical (?) Greek concept of ataraxia, but grander in scope, I think. I want to share with the users interested in such things something that's interesting, at least to me. I have been toying with this idea for some time. If we have a word for the peak of virtue or lucidity, why don't we have a concept or word for peak spiritual 'abysmation'? I say this because, as much as some parts of me have been forged through years of suffering to become more compassionate, wide-scoped and open-minded, I notice that overall I fall more into the spiritual abyss than enlightenment, and obviously most people in the forum do too.

Why would this be useful or relevant? You see, oftentimes in life we find that we can't see one extreme, but we are plunged into another, which lets us infer the other extreme should be somewhere, since our reality is dualistic, or binary, or at least our way of understanding the world is. I don't hold a simplistic, anthropomorphized, theistic worldview, but a good analogy would be to say that you have never seen God but that you know plenty about the Devil, so you imagine both entities to exist since you know at least one. Likewise, at the end of the day I personally know more about feeling alienated from others, hating them, desiring them harm, feeling hateful or ambivalent regarding life itself than to actually feel at a sentimental level that I am one with them, that I love them, that I forgive everyone etc. I understand that we are one AS AN ABSTRACTION and an abstraction only. In reality, I feel very distanced from everyone, and that's not very enlightened but rather the headspace where criminals dwell. Think about it. How do you think a serial killer felt regarding their victims? Closely related in the cosmic family of all things?

We have to be very careful with words and even concepts because they often trick people into thinking they understand stuff when they don't. Words > Ideas > Feelings. This is why a child rapist can pose as a nationally celebrated comedian for decades or a politician can bamboozle the feeble minded into thinking he is benevolent and responsible. The stupidest people cling to words, the mid-wits cling to ideas, and the ones that are really fucking serious about getting at the bottom of things look at feelings, which in judging people translates to things like 'how can we now what actually motivates someone, what are their values', 'who the person associates with', 'does the person show the correct emotions when faced with sob stories and the harship of others?' etc. Neurologically too, it's easy to see how feelings, especially base ones related to instincts are much older and more powerful than the cultural and social stuff.

So here are two examples of how I am the opposite of enlightened. I've known for years now that pornography is, for all intent and purposes, outrageously legal sexual abuse recorded for profit. I know for a fact, looking at these naked bodies, often compelled to show agressive grins as they do their thing, that what I am looking at is some kind of Samsaric epitome, like some kind of outer circle of Dante's inferno where pleasure, addiction and pain intertwine intimately. Again, the opposite of enlightenment, no doubt about it, but I can't actually stop masturbating to it. I'm enthralled, like the man and woman chained by Satan in the Devil's tarot card.

The last example, which has an humorous undertone, has to do with my encounters with a chubby, rude package carrier. You see, a year ago I was watering my garden with the headphones put on. When I heard someone screaming at me, took them out and saw the chubby carrier standing impatiently at the door. He had screamed at me disrespectfully, and when I approached and apologized because I was listening to music (I have social anxiety so often I will say the first thing that comes to mind), the carrier mockingly replied that 'It's OK, king, here is your package, here, take it. See, you, milord'. From that day on, the few times this same carrier has ended in my house I have been called chief, boss, marquis, the lot, each time with me getting menacingly closer to him with the door in between but unable to ask for respect. Today I realized that the next time he comes and talks to me like that, I will come out, confront him physically and dare him to mock me again, taking some pleasure in shoving him if need be.

For things like these, I realize I am probably more unenlightened than enlightened. I'm in the dark spiritually, just struggling not to become a 'bad person' (or kill myself), so the energy to be good just isn't there.
I.m.o enlghtmnt cn only cme frm authntcty s/ settng ur boundry & honorng ur feelngs w/ tht persn = tchcnlly th/ healthst thng 2 d/

Only pseudo-spirtl ppl wll allw othrs 2 jst wlk ovr thm & smle abt it unlss thy r tryn2 shw grace

Allwng thm 2 dsrspct u 1nce bcse thy mght hve bn havng dffclt dy = 1 thng bt ths persn cntinus 2 mke thgs persnl
 
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