The normalization of suffering

[Jupit3rs]

A few days ago i was thinking about how we perceive pain in this world. I heard people discussing about how much suffering they went through and how grateful they were for it because now they feel "better". I couldn't help to feel a bit strange: I understand that we as humans can't be confortable all the time, sometimes frustration needs to happen, let's say... you can't choose your favorite ice cream favor or you can't go hang out with your friends because you need to study. Those things make total sense to me, however, actual suffering is what i can't understand. I think about people that are homeless, people that are starving, people that has been abused in all ways possible, people that were kill brutally, people that were torture and I just??????? i ask the world.... why?
People try so hard to cope with things that it ends up normalizing suffering to the extreme: "yes, i have traumas from my abuser... but that makes me stronger" no it doesn't, you didn't deserve that, that shouldn't had happen at all? Yet, somehow, this is all i see, they think suffering is an integral part of life, just how things are. I'm sorry but I'm refusing this concept: can suffering create beautiful things? for sure, i use mine to write often. Should suffering be the only outlet for beauty? should it be the standard? No, i want people to create things and find meaning out of love, not out of suffering, that's just not okay. Maybe I'm rambling here, I just believe suffering is not a good thing, my pain is slowly killing me and stopping me, forcing me to be here bc "i can learn a lesson about it" is so disturbing and wrong.

 

[Smart No More]

You should check out "Hypernormalisation" by Adam Curtis. I think you'll find familiarity in it. Perhaps catharsis. Brilliant documentary in its own right. If you enjoy it Adam Curtis had a good library of similarly brilliant documentaries. I recommend them every chance I get. They're so poignant and on the nail that I think they should be made part of school curiculum.

 

[universe]

I totally understand your point of view, I think the same thing. My traumas have taught me nothing personally, there is no lesson to be learned from them. It's just been pain, unhappiness and I've been dragging this ball and chain for too long. And these sentences make me think that maybe I deserved my trauma. Which hurts me even more.No human being deserves to suffer. I know it's completely utopian: just the fact that we are designed with the ability to feel pain means that we are bound to suffer. But I sincerely think that this is not normal, nor justifiable.

I have a hard time with this kind of person. I know this may be condescending but I can't help but think that maybe didn't have big problems, sorry to say that. I've never heard anything like "I'm grateful I got r*ped, I'm grateful my sister got killed, it made me stronger." What is there to learn from the war? Mass killings?
Without forgetting that if this normalization of suffering were true, no one would end up committing suicide.

 

[Zegers]

I have been suffering since i was a child and the only thing it has done is to take away the illusion and hope, in my opinion suffering is useless, only to lead you to misery.

 

[almaranthine]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!!" is a phrase I despise which sums up the world view you're describing. No, all the suffering didn't kill me, it only makes me wish it had.

 

[GrumpyFrog]

I agree, it is really insane how much pain and suffering is in this world. It is senseless, mad, baffling and scary. But there is no one to direct our question "why?" at. Regardless of whether we cope with it or not, whether we think it should or shouldn't happen, whether we try to find meaning in suffering or not, it just is. If someone was traumatized, it already happened and it cannot be undone no matter how much we insist that it shouldn't have been happening. Life is not about creating beautiful things. It just happens, and I must admit it is not in a slightest bit beautiful most of the time. Some people on here see death as ultimate solution to all suffering but most people who aren't suicidal are willing to accept a trade off - some suffering in exchange to some joy or hope. And that makes sense, but it also makes sense when we say "hey, it is no longer worth it for me".

 

[Summer Child]

Oh, actually, there is a sort of person I dislike. The sort of person who thinks going through suffering makes them "better" than anyone else. I call it a martyr complex, not sure if it's a thing.

This sort of person will try to get into as much drama with other people as possible, just so they can feel like a victim, and get others on their side. This topic reminded me of it, because half of it is because they think they are so virtuous for gracefully accepting the "suffering" they are going through. It's worse when they actually suffer, it just becomes leverage to manipulate others.

And then, they use their "suffering" to invalidate yours. The suffering they mostly invented themselves. Kind of a pet peeve of mine. I guess they genuinely think they have it so, so bad though. I don't think you should compare sufferings, but, I guess they did it first. The difference is, I don't feel the need to TELL them about all my suffering, and I'm not obligated to.

I think toxic positivity plays into this, I don't know how to explain though. A person like this can never be "wrong" to other people, either, cause they have apparently suffered so much. Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't hold suffering on a pedestal, just saying? Maybe instead of saying people are "strong" for putting up with it, we should talk more about how different problems affect people and think about solving them. Maybe it's just my culture, but women in particular are expected to be meek.

I think this sort of thing just leads to not talking about things like suicide. Because hey what doesn't kill you makes you stronger right? (even when it actually kills you)

 

[sleeps]

i can't stand the idea that having horrible things happen to you is always secretly eventually a good thing bc you come out the other side stronger, or whatever.

its magical thinking, based on nothing. a lot of times shit just happens for no particular reason and it really sucks and makes your life worse and that's it. the insistence of some folks in putting a positive spin on suffering is damn exhausting.

 

[Forever Sleep]

I do get where you are coming from. I agree in so much as I'm appalled by how sadistically the human body- in fact- all life has been designed- with so much capacity to feel pain. I guess pain is necessary to tell us something is wrong with us- so- do something about it. Still, when there's no cure, it seems dreadful.

I guess in a way I can relate to 'celebrating' pain or struggle though. My Grandma suffered terribly with diverticulitis amongst other things. She was in pain every day. She largely spared me the details to be fair but she did tell me about an endoscopy once and as a child- it terrified me.

Fast forward a few decades and I started getting chronic abdominal pain. After several attacks and one where the pain hadn't subsided for 3 days, ended up going to a hospital who kept me in for tests. It was gallstones and sludge that had moved into the bile duct and they needed to do an endoscopy to remove it (ERCP)... I was terrified and it ended up being... absolutely fine. So was the eventual keyhole surgery to remove the gallbladder.

Point is, I was dreading every aspect- feeling like I wouldn't be able to cope with it but I did. I was weirdly 'grateful' for the experience. Not because I WANT to go through it again but because I know that I can- if that makes sense. Weirdly as well, I kind of hope that the pain of ctb via SN (my preferred method at the moment) might not be as bad as the excruciating pain I felt back then- although maybe I'm kidding myself.

I do also understand why people who have experienced terrible atrocities in their lives prefer to see themselves as survivors as well as victims. I think it is a way to grasp back some of the power and self worth that was stripped from them by the event.

All that said, I do understand your viewpoint and agree that it's a shame we seem to place more value and meaning on things that are terribly tragic, even violent rather than things that are just nice and pleasant.

 

[eldiablo666]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!!" is a phrase I despise which sums up the world view you're describing. No, all the suffering didn't kill me, it only makes me wish it had.

Hard experiences toughen people though …

 

[almaranthine]

Hard experiences toughen people though …

Are you being sarcastic? My bad if you aren't. I'm not saying people don't grow in some way personally and strengthen as a result of hardship... it can be insulting to hear this kind of phrasing thrown at you when you've experienced terrible suffering. I guess it's because trauma doesn't necessarily make you stronger, sometimes it just breaks you. This kind of response also demeans people that don't learn anything or "grow" from extremely negative experiences. Some times people don't just "bounce back" as expected and their quality of life is never the same or, worse, they lose the will to live entirely. I hope I'm making sense. It's similar to the "it gets better" phrasing. Sometimes, it just doesn't for people.

 

[FuneralCry]

Maybe for some people it's too hard for them to accept that all suffering is unnecessary as it would shatter their delusional views towards life. I think that many people believe in delusions as they are unable to bear the cruel reality of this existence, so they continue to deny it and justify the suffering that exists in this world by labelling it as being a positive thing.

I personally think that all suffering is a negative thing and that people would have been better off without it. Experiencing suffering in all it's many forms just causes us to feel more tired as time goes by. But to me the normalization of it, is harmful as it can lead to people getting their painful life experiences invalidated and may mean that many who want to ctb are seen as 'irrational' rather than their decision being a rational response to not seeing life as being worth living.

I personally view the existence of life with all it's endless suffering as being horrifying and that's all it could ever be. It's just so awful how life can potentially torture humans in so many ways with no relief.

 

[eldiablo666]

Are you being sarcastic? My bad if you aren't. I'm not saying people don't grow in some way personally and strengthen as a result of hardship... it can be insulting to hear this kind of phrasing thrown at you when you've experienced terrible suffering. I guess it's because trauma doesn't necessarily make you stronger, sometimes it just breaks you. This kind of response also demeans people that don't learn anything or "grow" from extremely negative experiences. Some times people don't just "bounce back" as expected and their quality of life is never the same or, worse, they lose the will to live entirely. I hope I'm making sense. It's similar to the "it gets better" phrasing. Sometimes, it just doesn't for people.

I mean it's known that humans grow and harden from the different obstacles of life. But I guess im too young to really give a broader answer to this.
Also im too inexperienced really.

Of coarse there is different spectrums of hardship too.

 

[makethepainstop]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!!" is a phrase I despise which sums up the world view you're describing. No, all the suffering didn't kill me, it only makes me wish it had.

Your are not alone in your thinking, believe you me!

 

[brokensea]

Yeah suffering can affect your life forever in a negative way. I agree most of the time it's pointless. You just learn not to trust people. I find it strange when people say you're strong for surviving so much it's like what choice did I have? Live or die? I don't feel strong at all I feel weak and full of life long pain I can never get out of. I think mild obstacles people overcome they can say such empty platitudes or they're in denial. It's tiring people want to put a positive spin on something cruel, unfair and something you didn't ask for nor want. Pain can just have negative effects. Make you vulnerable and cause depression and death. Would be great if people took it seriously instead of making it into a stupid life lesson that wasn't worth learning if you had to go through what you did. I'd rather be a bumbling idiot free of pain with no life lessons.

 

[Astral Storm]

Personally, I hate all of life and the world. Everything exists to be exploited, broken, mutilated and killed. It's the only principle here. So much death and agony for absolutely nothing at all.

There are these poor animals who have to eat each other alive and have to suffer for no freaking reason. It's horrible. Life cannot exist without exploitation and violence. This miserable state cannot be accepted or justified at all.

There will be wars, murder, torture, death and suffering right until the end. I really hope there is an end though. The sooner, the better.

 

[eldiablo666]

Personally, I hate all of life and the world. Everything exists to be exploited, broken, mutilated and killed. It's the only principle here. So much death and agony for absolutely nothing at all.

There are these poor animals who have to eat each other alive and have to suffer for no freaking reason. It's horrible. Life cannot exist without exploitation and violence. This miserable state cannot be accepted or justified at all.

There will be wars, murder, torture, death and suffering right until the end. I really hope there is an end though. The sooner, the better.

And yet there are those who finds reasons to bring innocent souls here to suffer for no reason at all. Iam absolutely disgusted by parents in general.

 

[actual_fox]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!!" is a phrase I despise which sums up the world view you're describing. No, all the suffering didn't kill me, it only makes me wish it had.

"What doesn't kill makes you weird at intimacy"
or
"What doesn't kill gives you trauma"

 

[Conker]

Personally, I hate all of life and the world. Everything exists to be exploited, broken, mutilated and killed. It's the only principle here. So much death and agony for absolutely nothing at all.

There are these poor animals who have to eat each other alive and have to suffer for no freaking reason. It's horrible. Life cannot exist without exploitation and violence. This miserable state cannot be accepted or justified at all.

There will be wars, murder, torture, death and suffering right until the end. I really hope there is an end though. The sooner, the better.

Existence of ticks is the only evidence we need that no benevolent entity was behind the design of such a world. Pointless creatures other than to maximize pain, not apart of any natural balance whatsoever.

And yet there are those who finds reasons to bring innocent souls here to suffer for no reason at all. Iam absolutely disgusted by parents in general.

Overpopulation has always struck me as mindboggling.

Especially when you take into account how ugly Indians are on average.
They are the worst race out of them all! You'd expect this to be a problem that sorts itself out.

 

[almaranthine]

"What doesn't kill makes you weird at intimacy"
or
"What doesn't kill gives you trauma"

"What doesn't kill you makes you a shell of your former self."
"What doesn't kill you makes you bitter and resentful."
"What doesn't kill you induces or exacerbates mental illness."
We could make a card game out of this lol.

 

[avoid_slow_death]

See, it's ironic because the saying? What doesn't kill you makes you stronger? It's absolutely true....in reverse. It kills you slowly. First it eats your mind then it starts to destroy your body. Slowly. Until you literally rot away or take your own life. And when I say rot away your mind goes long before your body. You get to be a prisoner for a good while....

 

[peaches]

Oh, actually, there is a sort of person I dislike. The sort of person who thinks going through suffering makes them "better" than anyone else. I call it a martyr complex, not sure if it's a thing.

This sort of person will try to get into as much drama with other people as possible, just so they can feel like a victim, and get others on their side. This topic reminded me of it, because half of it is because they think they are so virtuous for gracefully accepting the "suffering" they are going through. It's worse when they actually suffer, it just becomes leverage to manipulate others.

And then, they use their "suffering" to invalidate yours. The suffering they mostly invented themselves. Kind of a pet peeve of mine. I guess they genuinely think they have it so, so bad though. I don't think you should compare sufferings, but, I guess they did it first. The difference is, I don't feel the need to TELL them about all my suffering, and I'm not obligated to.

I think toxic positivity plays into this, I don't know how to explain though. A person like this can never be "wrong" to other people, either, cause they have apparently suffered so much. Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't hold suffering on a pedestal, just saying? Maybe instead of saying people are "strong" for putting up with it, we should talk more about how different problems affect people and think about solving them. Maybe it's just my culture, but women in particular are expected to be meek.

I think this sort of thing just leads to not talking about things like suicide. Because hey what doesn't kill you makes you stronger right? (even when it actually kills you)

I think that this concept of pride of suffering is based on religious dogma.
I blame most of the global and individual horrors on the imposition of religion. Due to religion, we cannot have the 'right to die' in most US states. Religious radicals believe suffering is required rather than the kindness of mercy.
The US is dominated by religious addicts.

 

[Ethereal Knight]

A few days ago i was thinking about how we perceive pain in this world. I heard people discussing about how much suffering they went through and how grateful they were for it because now they feel "better". I couldn't help to feel a bit strange: I understand that we as humans can't be confortable all the time, sometimes frustration needs to happen, let's say... you can't choose your favorite ice cream favor or you can't go hang out with your friends because you need to study. Those things make total sense to me, however, actual suffering is what i can't understand. I think about people that are homeless, people that are starving, people that has been abused in all ways possible, people that were kill brutally, people that were torture and I just??????? i ask the world.... why?
People try so hard to cope with things that it ends up normalizing suffering to the extreme: "yes, i have traumas from my abuser... but that makes me stronger" no it doesn't, you didn't deserve that, that shouldn't had happen at all? Yet, somehow, this is all i see, they think suffering is an integral part of life, just how things are. I'm sorry but I'm refusing this concept

I agree. I saw this normalization too, like people saying that they wouldn't think about CTBing despite their terrible quality of life because "there's somebody out there in worse situation than them" - that's so rethoric, 'cause there's always somebody in worse situation than us, and this doesn't mean that we should all endure the suffering necessarily. those who wanna CTB, can do it without guilty, shame or thoughts of failure. there's no failure, because "By all evidence, we are in the world to do nothing" (Emil Cioran).

 

[actual_fox]

"What doesn't kill you makes you a shell of your former self."
"What doesn't kill you makes you bitter and resentful."
"What doesn't kill you induces or exacerbates mental illness."
We could make a card game out of this lol.

You suppose to be able to sing this

Spoiler: song