The capitalist model is a curse

[Brayu]

Yes, socialism has flaws... monarchical absolutism has flaws...

But taking the western example that jumped from the old regime straight to modern capitalism... It's a mistake, one of the things that moved people was the ideal of equality and now what we have is even less equality, because now there are not only "3 states", but a very well stratified pyramid... Nowadays someone who earns the minimum wage (in my country it's only 200 dollars) thinks he has the right to humiliate an unemployed person (the rich can do much worse than that) .
Today, the richest form the so-called "noble neighborhoods" and in my country they even build a wall so the poor can't access it (it's not a condominium).

How much more egalitarian is a society like this than the one they overthrew in 1789? Democracy? democracy in countries like mine are just details and when a fraction of the people oppose the bourgeois order they install dictatorships and that's it.

Even today bankers rule more than presidents and kings, this seems to me extremely offensive. In this way, the interest is no longer that of a ruling elite, but the economic elite.

Unemployment? We all know how much this is in the interests of economic elites (to put pressure on and make it impossible for someone to ask for better working conditions). The political elite today can only obey the economic elite.

 

[Darkover]

capitalism has made very few at the top very rich while vast majority are still very poor capitalism it doesn't work
the power they took from the people will return to the people.

 

[Nostalgic]

Reality isn't Disneyland. Harsh truths and realities people need to come to terms with. It is the best system that we have. Even though I dont necessarily agree with all of its terms. Life is hard, life is suffering, life is pain. There is just no way to escape that. Things could always be worse. We could have slaves and their owners system. I personally try to appreciate the little things even though to an extent I agree with you. In this world only the people who are the most adaptable to their environment go on to succeed. You can't just blame the world, the world is the world's responsibility. You are your responsibility. I dont want to sound preachy, I might even sound like a hypocrite but these ideals won't help you or the world. Focus on what you can control

 

[Snake of Eden]

Humans will always fail to govern themselves by themselves. They need a literal divine intervention to save them from themselves

 

[summers]

Humans will always fail to govern themselves by themselves. They need a literal divine intervention to save them from themselves

Or AI - the concept of Skynet isn't so far off - people are a danger to themselves.

 

[stevieu]

 

[Live Free or Die]

All governments have very few at the top and 99% on the bottom. All of them. At least in this one most people have cellphones, computers, internet, air pods, imacs, ect. You can get on your pocket sized super computer cell phone and order 1 taco to be delivered to your door within 15 min. They say life has never been easier for any generation. So easy most people are bored. You won't see anyone from a capitalist country moving to any non-capitalist country. In fact if you're on this site with a cell phone, you're more blessed than most of the world.

 

[Snake of Eden]

All governments have very few at the top and 99% on the bottom. All of them. At least in this one most people have cellphones, computers, internet, air pods, imacs, ect. You can get on your pocket sized super computer cell phone and order 1 taco to be delivered to your door within 15 min. They say life has never been easier for any generation. So easy most people are bored. You won't see anyone from a capitalist country moving to any non-capitalist country. In fact if you're on this site with a cell phone, you're more blessed than most of the world.

Yes but also alot of people are living paycheque to paycheque, frozen wages for decades, stuck at low end jobs with no upward mobility, university education does not gurantee you good job anymore, ever rising energy bills and prospects of owning homes is almost none existent for new generation. We maybe having it easy but we are also at much higher risk of social and economical unstability.

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

All governments have very few at the top and 99% on the bottom. All of them. At least in this one most people have cellphones, computers, internet, air pods, imacs, ect. You can get on your pocket sized super computer cell phone and order 1 taco to be delivered to your door within 15 min. They say life has never been easier for any generation. So easy most people are bored. You won't see anyone from a capitalist country moving to any non-capitalist country. In fact if you're on this site with a cell phone, you're more blessed than most of the world.

Golden handcuffs. Those cell phones you're hyping up have been paramount in deconstructing society.

 

[Ligottian]

The class war is over. The working class lost.

 

[Lucifer'sRight]

Yes, socialism has flaws... monarchical absolutism has flaws...

But taking the western example that jumped from the old regime straight to modern capitalism... It's a mistake, one of the things that moved people was the ideal of equality and now what we have is even less equality, because now there are not only "3 states", but a very well stratified pyramid... Nowadays someone who earns the minimum wage (in my country it's only 200 dollars) thinks he has the right to humiliate an unemployed person (the rich can do much worse than that) .
Today, the richest form the so-called "noble neighborhoods" and in my country they even build a wall so the poor can't access it (it's not a condominium).

How much more egalitarian is a society like this than the one they overthrew in 1789? Democracy? democracy in countries like mine are just details and when a fraction of the people oppose the bourgeois order they install dictatorships and that's it.

Even today bankers rule more than presidents and kings, this seems to me extremely offensive. In this way, the interest is no longer that of a ruling elite, but the economic elite.

Unemployment? We all know how much this is in the interests of economic elites (to put pressure on and make it impossible for someone to ask for better working conditions). The political elite today can only obey the economic elite.

we've never had true capitalism in place..
companies are heavily subsidised by government
there's heavy money exchanging hands between tycoons and politicians behind the scenes
lobbying is in place all the time
one example of all that are the AG GAG laws where the government banned filming in slaughterhouses and inside of factory farms in USA to pure benefit of these companies
bankers run on a scam, they're not true capitalists
capitalism means the government which is supposed to be "owned" by everyone doesn't put their fingers into company's business beyond enforcing basic human rights.
this has never been the case.
free market has never existed on planet earth.

 

[Julgran]

Yes, socialism has flaws... monarchical absolutism has flaws...

But taking the western example that jumped from the old regime straight to modern capitalism... It's a mistake, one of the things that moved people was the ideal of equality and now what we have is even less equality, because now there are not only "3 states", but a very well stratified pyramid... Nowadays someone who earns the minimum wage (in my country it's only 200 dollars) thinks he has the right to humiliate an unemployed person (the rich can do much worse than that) .
Today, the richest form the so-called "noble neighborhoods" and in my country they even build a wall so the poor can't access it (it's not a condominium).

How much more egalitarian is a society like this than the one they overthrew in 1789? Democracy? democracy in countries like mine are just details and when a fraction of the people oppose the bourgeois order they install dictatorships and that's it.

Even today bankers rule more than presidents and kings, this seems to me extremely offensive. In this way, the interest is no longer that of a ruling elite, but the economic elite.

Unemployment? We all know how much this is in the interests of economic elites (to put pressure on and make it impossible for someone to ask for better working conditions). The political elite today can only obey the economic elite.

As I see it, the problem isn't caused by capitalism, because capitalism is just the system of trading goods and services for other goods or services, such as money. For example, in a basic capitalistic system, a baker may sell bread to their customers and receive money for their work, which is fine. By baking bread and selling it to customers, the baker ensures that the town that they are living in is sufficiently supplied with bread, and no one else who lives there may need to bake bread. In turn, someone else knows how to build houses, so they build houses and sell them to their customers, and so forth. In this kind of economy, everyone is dependent on each other's skills, so they trade their skills for money in an enclosed system.

I think that life would be very hard if everyone had to make everything themselves - from a house and utensils, to dishwashers and computers. This is why we have our roles - in other words; our jobs - with which we support each other in a capitalistic system.

The problem, in my view, is that the capitalistic economies of today don't work on this ground level as described above. Instead, there are abstract entities - companies, banks, hedge funds, and such - that prey on the basic economy previously described, and contribute nothing to society, and eventually destroy it.

The hard questions arise when an employer earns much more than their employees, because then people who are against capitalism may say that those employers exploit their employees, to the detriment of the employees' salaries and working conditions. In such a case, let's look at the baker, who may be making the best cinnamon rools that the world has ever conceived - isn't it their right to have any salary that they wish, provided that their money was earned from their customers - and to they hire other bakers, but with lower salaries? Is it greedy of the baker to not split all their earnings evenly with the other bakers, given that it was them who started the baking company, and took the financial risks that accompany such ventures - or should we see it is as an opportunity for the other bakers to have a job that the first baker has calculated to be beneficial to the rest of the town? In the end, it's the customers that decide whether the baking company is worth their money, and who ultimately pay the salaries of all the bakers.

One problem that I see with the basic capitalistic system is that not everyone can be financially successful, since a society can't work if every single person has a high-paying occupation - such as doctors, engineers and lawyers - which means that most people will need to be content with having just enough to survive and get by. For example, what should we do if every child in school had the best grades? Then they would need to compete in some other way in order for the high-paying jobs to be distributed among them, so that they could decide who would become a doctor, and who would become a janitor, for example. It's as if we are still living in the time of the cave people, but instead of fighting and dying, those who would die back then, simply don't get a high-paying job today.

 

[mistvissione11e]

Reality isn't Disneyland. Harsh truths and realities people need to come to terms with. It is the best system that we have. Even though I dont necessarily agree with all of its terms. Life is hard, life is suffering, life is pain. There is just no way to escape that. Things could always be worse. We could have slaves and their owners system. I personally try to appreciate the little things even though to an extent I agree with you. In this world only the people who are the most adaptable to their environment go on to succeed. You can't just blame the world, the world is the world's responsibility. You are your responsibility. I dont want to sound preachy, I might even sound like a hypocrite but these ideals won't help you or the world. Focus on what you can control

Jean Baudrillard: "Disneyland is presented as imaginary in order to make us believe that the rest is real, when in fact all of Los Angeles and the America surrounding it are no longer real, but of the order of the hyperreal and of simulation."
What do u think?

 

[Snake of Eden]

Reality isn't Disneyland. Harsh truths and realities people need to come to terms with. It is the best system that we have. Even though I dont necessarily agree with all of its terms. Life is hard, life is suffering, life is pain. There is just no way to escape that. Things could always be worse. We could have slaves and their owners system. I personally try to appreciate the little things even though to an extent I agree with you. In this world only the people who are the most adaptable to their environment go on to succeed. You can't just blame the world, the world is the world's responsibility. You are your responsibility. I dont want to sound preachy, I might even sound like a hypocrite but these ideals won't help you or the world. Focus on what you can control

When you really have nothing to lose or gain as you lost complete control, you have no choice but to try and change whats beyond your ability to change. Thats how i see it

 

[WoAiGou]

Capitalism made sense in terms of transitioning from feudalism, but It has outlived its usefulness. How anyone can look at the state of the world, staring down the barrel of civilization collapse due to climate change and not see that capitalism is the problem is beyond me. We need to evolve beyond this for profit insanity, move towards a society dictated by working people where the goal is to meet everyone's basic needs first, everything else can come after. Honestly it will never happen, at least in western countries, too blinded by propaganda, too distracted by technology, social media, video games, tv. I blame America and the west for upholding capitlalism hegemony following world war 2. It's depressing af living in a country (USA) that is hampering the evolution of humanity.

 

[Snake of Eden]

Capitalism made sense in terms of transitioning from feudalism, but It has outlived its usefulness. How anyone can look at the state of the world, staring down the barrel of civilization collapse due to climate change and not see that capitalism is the problem is beyond me. We need to evolve beyond this for profit insanity, move towards a society dictated by working people where the goal is to meet everyone's basic needs first, everything else can come after. Honestly it will never happen, at least in western countries, too blinded by propaganda, too distracted by technology, social media, video games, tv. I blame America and the west for upholding capitlalism hegemony following world war 2. It's depressing af living in a country (USA) that is hampering the evolution of humanity.

Thank you for writing this. I couldnt have said it better. I would like to add that something got to give at some point. This WILL NEVER be sustainable forever. I cant believe people are unable to see that

 

[WoAiGou]

Thank you for writing this. I couldnt have said it better. I would like to add that something got to give at some point. This WILL NEVER be sustainable forever. I cant believe people are unable to see that

We will see the collapse of humanity and our possible extinction as a result of this insanity, and most of the people who live to see it won't understand or want to understand the reason behind it all.

 

[Snake of Eden]

We will see the collapse of humanity and our possible extinction as a result of this insanity, and most of the people who live to see it won't understand or want to understand the reason behind it all.

Tbh with you I see extinction is the lesser of two evils than surviving in post-global-civilization. People wont have skills. Maybe resources completely polluted or dried out, technology and knowledge may get lost forever and whoever survives will have to start from scratch if they were unlucky enough to stay alive. Alot of my debates and arguments on this site revolves around sustainability of our "ways" of living and how we are completely unaware with the possibility of civil regression. I am having a poll in off-topic about death penalty if you are interested to look at that

 

[WoAiGou]

Tbh with you I see extinction is the lesser of two evils than surviving in post-global-civilization. People wont have skills. Maybe resources completely polluted or dried out, technology and knowledge may get lost forever and whoever survives will have to start from scratch if they were unlucky enough to stay alive. Alot of my debates and arguments on this site revolves around sustainability of our "ways" of living and how we are completely unaware with the possibility of civil regression. I am having a poll in off-topic about death penalty if you are interested to look at that

Oh yeah I see nothing wrong with extinction I just wish humanity could take all sentient life down with it so no animals have to suffer anymore.

 

[Lost Magic]

Yes but also alot of people are living paycheque to paycheque, frozen wages for decades, stuck at low end jobs with no upward mobility, university education does not gurantee you good job anymore, ever rising energy bills and prospects of owning homes is almost none existent for new generation. We maybe having it easy but we are also at much higher risk of social and economical unstability.

All governments have very few at the top and 99% on the bottom. All of them. At least in this one most people have cellphones, computers, internet, air pods, imacs, ect. You can get on your pocket sized super computer cell phone and order 1 taco to be delivered to your door within 15 min. They say life has never been easier for any generation. So easy most people are bored. You won't see anyone from a capitalist country moving to any non-capitalist country. In fact if you're on this site with a cell phone, you're more blessed than most of the world.

I hear what you are saying but those technologies are sadly the basics now of a modern society. Some of these phones want to track your every movement and make you a virtual slave to a phone. Don't get me wrong I would be a lot worse without my gaming laptop but I think social media is a cancer on our communities and I have no interest in those platforms and never liked them even when I was younger. These tech billionaires are making a fortune out of other peoples personal information and making them feel like they need to compete all the time like travelling circus people. It's all a game to these Elites and we are losing and they are making a mockery out of everyone. They don't even pay their fair share of tax money because they lobby crooked politicians to evade them. You feel blessed, dude, because I sure as hell don't. Just take a look at what China is doing with their tech. They are mirroring their technologies based on SkyNet and Black Mirror. What a truly frightening world we live in now. George Orwell prophesised this shit years ago and now look where we are. Unbelievable.

 

[Brayu]

Reality isn't Disneyland. Harsh truths and realities people need to come to terms with. It is the best system that we have. Even though I dont necessarily agree with all of its terms. Life is hard, life is suffering, life is pain. There is just no way to escape that. Things could always be worse. We could have slaves and their owners system. I personally try to appreciate the little things even though to an extent I agree with you. In this world only the people who are the most adaptable to their environment go on to succeed. You can't just blame the world, the world is the world's responsibility. You are your responsibility. I dont want to sound preachy, I might even sound like a hypocrite but these ideals won't help you or the world. Focus on what you can control

Who said they are ideal? They are not... I'm just seeing how the government of the bourgeoisie (which had a premise of equality and freedom) created a sick West on several levels (not only economic, but social as well...).

Today, people are nothing more than objects... In the western world, the elderly and disabled (even sick people often) are absurdly disposable... What can I say that even today there are places in the world with healthier functioning than the neoliberal standard. And yes you can do your part to change, I try to do mine. To refuse the "values" that this rotten system has given us.

As for wanting to change the world? my friend, I don't intend to pass this year... I have no intention of changing anything for myself! Just sharing ideas, if it's useful for someone, follow, if not... patience

 

[Lucifer'sRight]

How anyone can look at the state of the world, staring down the barrel of civilization collapse due to climate change and not see that capitalism is the problem is beyond me

can you explain why?
and capitalism as opposed to what..?

 

[Brayu]

Capitalism made sense in terms of transitioning from feudalism, but It has outlived its usefulness. How anyone can look at the state of the world, staring down the barrel of civilization collapse due to climate change and not see that capitalism is the problem is beyond me. We need to evolve beyond this for profit insanity, move towards a society dictated by working people where the goal is to meet everyone's basic needs first, everything else can come after. Honestly it will never happen, at least in western countries, too blinded by propaganda, too distracted by technology, social media, video games, tv. I blame America and the west for upholding capitlalism hegemony following world war 2. It's depressing af living in a country (USA) that is hampering the evolution of humanity.

Yes, it replaced feudalism giving rise to mercantilism... so far so good! The problem started when the bourgeois economic elite took the place of the nobility in terms of decision making... It turns out that it is not in the nature of the bourgeoisie to govern and they don't care about the order of things!

If you take a socialist (Cuba, China) or absolutist (Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates) country, you realize that maintaining social order (employment, basic quality of life, vaccine...) for a specific leader to a certain extent and more sooner or later will be charged (and in many cases we have seen tyrants beheaded, for not responding more).
The problem with the economic elite is that they make puppet politicians and rulers where they predominate. For those who live in first world countries this can be mitigated, but for those who live in Latin America this is very clear.

I am reminded of the case of the United Fruit Company, which manipulated Central American governments by turning entire countries into warehouses. When the state stops being a state to bow to the interests of billionaires, things get very ugly...

I repeat that political regimes that overcome the mentality of direct control of the bourgeoisie (whether a communist party or a royal dynasty) may not be perfect, but they are amenable to reform. Trying to reform capitalism is madness... dealing with the bourgeoisie is like trying to hold on to something intangible and uprooted...

can you explain why?
and capitalism as opposed to what..?

In this sense, it seems that capitalism is the system that most encourages unbridled profit... In other models, the state has some predominance and how it is conditioned to maintain social order and contentment, as well as respond to international peers and listen to science...

Another issue is some actions such as agrarian reform and sustainability of resources... I think capitalism dispenses with a good part of that

 

[Snake of Eden]

This is what late stage capitalism has accomplished. A tiny bungalow barely fit for a couple of people and not in a great shape by any stretch sells for 3 million dollars. Someone who works minimum full job work in Toronto makes about 16,000 before taxes just for reference

 

[deflationary]

I'm no fan of capitalism, but I think it's missing the big picture to focus on one specific economic system as the main problem when things have literally never once been fine anywhere. The problem is deeper than capitalism. The problem is human beings and ultimately nature and life as a whole.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I'm no fan of capitalism, but I think it's missing the big picture to focus on one specific economic system as the main problem when things have literally never once been fine anywhere. The problem is deeper than capitalism. The problem is human beings and ultimately nature and life as a whole.

I agree. I always say we cant ever govern ourselves acceptably. There will always be minority of winners and majority of losers. We need nothing short of a divine intervention to save ourselves and I dont mean religion by that. I mean actual miracle

 

[dunedindwell]

S

Capitalism made sense in terms of transitioning from feudalism, but It has outlived its usefulness. How anyone can look at the state of the world, staring down the barrel of civilization collapse due to climate change and not see that capitalism is the problem is beyond me. We need to evolve beyond this for profit insanity, move towards a society dictated by working people where the goal is to meet everyone's basic needs first, everything else can come after. Honestly it will never happen, at least in western countries, too blinded by propaganda, too distracted by technology, social media, video games, tv. I blame America and the west for upholding capitlalism hegemony following world war 2. It's depressing af living in a country (USA) that is hampering the evolution of humanity.

Just repeating what someone already wrote in commending you, but well said ! Thanks for writing this
Very important to try and imagine a world coming out of the current that is somehow outside of capitalism.

 

[Snake of Eden]

I just would like to gently remind everyone. Even when it is very bad for many of us out there with no clear indication of things going for the better let us remember that the race for quantum computing and almighty AI is still on so don't allow yourself to lose asleep over this shit and rest assured all will be okay in the end…

 

[Feeding Pigeons]

I'm no fan of capitalism, but I think it's missing the big picture to focus on one specific economic system as the main problem when things have literally never once been fine anywhere. The problem is deeper than capitalism. The problem is human beings and ultimately nature and life as a whole.

Good point. I think the only difference is that we can actually document every country's slide into desolation in real time. We've never had that before. It makes it all the more tragic.