Xerxes

Xerxes

Invisible
Nov 8, 2018
936
She even had a DNR in order as well, but hospice workers ignored it. This is all manners messed up. When logic goes out the window and emotions come into play, it proves disastrous for everyone involved.
 
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weedoge

weedoge

Banned
Jul 12, 2018
1,525
You want to know something else extra fucked up?.... I can't even read the article "for legal reasons", living in a world gone mad tbh.

Upload 2018 12 15 20 32 32
 
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Shewaitsforme

Arcanist
Sep 23, 2018
493
Because she tried to commit suicide she has infact made the DNR void. The DNR is permitted once the patient is deemed fully competent, rational, fully aware of consequences of having the DNR. Suicide is seen as irrational that only people with mental issues and/or physical issues would undertake. So at that point her committing suicide they cant be sure if she was acting irrationally, doing so as a result of a mental issue that can be 'cured'. That DNR woukd have to say do not resusitate in the event of suicide by such a method. So although morally should they have saved her thats difficult but legally there hands are tied.
 
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weedoge

weedoge

Banned
Jul 12, 2018
1,525
Because she tried to commit suicide she has infact made the DNR void. The DNR is permitted once the patient is deemed fully competent, rational, fully aware of consequences of having the DNR. Suicide is seen as irrational that only people with mental issues and/or physical issues would undertake. So at that point her committing suicide they cant be sure if she was acting irrationally, doing so as a result of a mental issue that can be 'cured'. That DNR woukd have to say do not resusitate in the event of suicide by such a method. So although morally should they have saved her thats difficult but legally there hands are tied.

I don't think there is any real justification for this. She has 6 months... how is there ANY justification behind bringing someone back from a comfortable death so that ALL they have is an excruciating 6 months? This is one of the more viscerally sickening articles I've seen on such a subject.

The reason she did it is absolutely clearly not a mental health issue, and even if it were and there becomes a grey area, that should be overwritten immediately by considering her personal circumstances.
 
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TAW122

TAW122

Emissary of the right to die.
Aug 30, 2018
6,804
Yeah that is really, really disgusting. This has just further reinforced my notion that I will go out on my terms rather than to be subject to a terminal illness or dying slowly in an assisted living facility.

Because she tried to commit suicide she has infact made the DNR void. The DNR is permitted once the patient is deemed fully competent, rational, fully aware of consequences of having the DNR. Suicide is seen as irrational that only people with mental issues and/or physical issues would undertake. So at that point her committing suicide they cant be sure if she was acting irrationally, doing so as a result of a mental issue that can be 'cured'. That DNR woukd have to say do not resusitate in the event of suicide by such a method. So although morally should they have saved her thats difficult but legally there hands are tied.

Which is why the whole premise of "suicide is irrational" is very, very flawed. As far as having a DNR having a clause as "DNR in the event of suicide", as much as I hope that would be filed, it's unlikely any doctor or medical professional would allow such an DNR. I believe we really do need to change the damn premise. Until then, even terminally ill patients aren't even given a dignified death in most cases.
 
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Shewaitsforme

Arcanist
Sep 23, 2018
493
Yeah that is really, really disgusting. This has just further reinforced my notion that I will go out on my terms rather than to be subject to a terminal illness or dying slowly in an assisted living facility.



Which is why the whole premise of "suicide is irrational" is very, very flawed. As far as having a DNR having a clause as "DNR in the event of suicide", as much as I hope that would be filed, it's unlikely any doctor or medical professional would allow such an DNR. I believe we really do need to change the damn premise. Until then, even terminally ill patients aren't even given a dignified death in most cases.

No they definatly wont untill people stop thinking all suicidal patients are mentally ill and irrational. Im suicidal, held on a ward for 2 months in total. Was released as they had no mental illness diagnosis, i wasnt on medication, fully capacity they couldnt deny my release but i had to fight really hard to get out.
 
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Shewaitsforme

Arcanist
Sep 23, 2018
493
I don't think there is any real justification for this. She has 6 months... how is there ANY justification behind bringing someone back from a comfortable death so that ALL they have is an excruciating 6 months? This is one of the more viscerally sickening articles I've seen on such a subject.

The reason she did it is absolutely clearly not a mental health issue, and even if it were and there becomes a grey area, that should be overwritten immediately by considering her personal circumstances.

Yep, i agree they should have left her to go in peace but unfortunatly they would have been fired, maybe even prosecuted. Every day i go out on the ambulance and im faced with literal life and death it becomes alomst about protecting yourself, im not high enough to make that choice dir the patient. Im 100% pro choice, unfortunatly and ill admit it when im at work i stick to the 3 ps, preserve life, prevent death and promote recovery, im a hypocrite but joined the service for my family last year, my partner commited suicide in May and she was so proud to see me in my uniform, im not ready to give that up yet.
 
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weedoge

weedoge

Banned
Jul 12, 2018
1,525
Yep, i agree they should have left her to go in peace but unfortunatly they would have been fired, maybe even prosecuted. Every day i go out on the ambulance and im faced with literal life and death it becomes alomst about protecting yourself, im not high enough to make that choice dir the patient. Im 100% pro choice, unfortunatly and ill admit it when im at work i stick to the 3 ps, preserve life, prevent death and promote recovery, im a hypocrite but joined the service for my family last year, my partner commited suicide in May and she was so proud to see me in my uniform, im not ready to give that up yet.
Yeah I figured you were speaking from a legal point of view, I had a similar conversation with someone in the past and it's a shame about how the DNR works, I'm surprised it's overridden by suicide in some circumstances and I'm curious to know if there is any way around that for example specifically seeking out a doctor who supports euthanasia and suicide for the terminally ill to write or sign off on your DNR? Or is the law on these issues formulated in such a way that suicide attempts always require resus?
 
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Shewaitsforme

Arcanist
Sep 23, 2018
493
Yeah I figured you were speaking from a legal point of view, I had a similar conversation with someone in the past and it's a shame about how the DNR works, I'm surprised it's overridden by suicide in some circumstances and I'm curious to know if there is any way around that for example specifically seeking out a doctor who supports euthanasia and suicide for the terminally ill to write or sign off on your DNR? Or is the law on these issues formulated in such a way that suicide attempts always require resus?

I guess as long as its signed off by the recognised professional then they should respect it but its the whole issue of suicide although legal its illegal to help and by not doing anthing your infact in a way helping if your in a medical profession. Thats why euthanasia groups are getting sued all the time its a very fine line.

Its hard to be suicidal and not be labelled as irrational or mentally ill it will be hard to find a doctor to sign that paper although there was a 24yr old who had just mentak health issues, she was allowed assisted suicide
 
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Smilla

Smilla

Visionary
Apr 30, 2018
2,549
She even had a DNR in order as well, but hospice workers ignored it. This is all manners messed up. When logic goes out the window and emotions come into play, it proves disastrous for everyone involved.

She has a DNR? What the hell good are these LEGAL documents if they aren't respected?

This is an outrage.
 
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Threads

Threads

Warlock
Jul 13, 2018
721
https://sanctioned-suicide.net/threads/terminally-ill-woman-revived-after-suicide-attempt.9277/

Before Varian Ayers Knisely decided to end her life, she gave away some of her favorite possessions, made sure her husband, Gary Knisely, could find everything in the kitchen, and pored over photo books with him as they relived their 42 years together traveling the world. t had been a wonderful life, and 68-year-old Varian wanted to end it before a brain tumor completely ravaged her mind. On July 6, she swallowed a large dose of Valium and Dramamine and washed it down with vodka. She would have preferred wine -- her joy -- but she couldn't stand it ever since the Grade 4 glioblastoma multiforme tumor had reared up a year earlier.

Varian, a retired vice president of Sotheby's, had tried surgery, radiation and a year of chemotherapy. But the tumor was advancing and she had less than six months to live. She stopped chemo and said her goodbyes. Varian wanted to die on her own terms: at home and with her mind intact. Varian held Gary's hand and spoke with him until she dozed off in the living room of their hilltop home in Old Chatham that has a 180-degree-view of Columbia County. Her breathing began to slow.

Gary knew Varian wanted to die, but watching it happen was tougher than he expected. The phone rang. Varian's hospice worker was in the area and asked if she could stop by. He knew it wasn't a great idea, but Gary needed someone to talk to. He told the worker what was happening and said she could visit. A moment later, a nurse from The Community Hospice arrived and then a social worker from the agency came. They sat on the porch and talked with Gary. The nurse checked on Varian. Gary said he felt they understood Varian's choice, but were conflicted on how to deal with it. Hospice does not condone or support suicide. Gary said the workers called their supervisor and, after more back and forth, the supervisor called 911.

Gary heard the sirens. Stunned, he thought, "What's happening here?"

Four ambulances and three police cars streamed up their long driveway. Gary held up a copy of Varian's health proxy like a shield. Varian had signed the document describing her end-of-life wishes. But the officers and emergency medical technicians pushed into the room. Gary stood between Varian and an EMT gripping electroshock paddles. Another EMT said, "We're here, and this is what we've got to do." Varian was taken to Columbia Memorial Hospital and revived. When she awoke the next day, she asked Gary, "Did we screw up?"

She probably would have succeeded if the hospice workers hadn't called 911.

The workers had to make the call, said Rob Puglisi, spokesman for The Community Hospice, which employed Knisely's hospice workers. Puglisi said he could not speak directly about the Knisely case because of privacy concerns, but said health care workers "have a professional responsibility and obligation to identify patients who are potential suicide risks and to prevent suicide attempts from being carried out." Even though Varian had signed a "Do Not Resuscitate" order, the law is unsettled about how emergency responders should handle a suicide. The common practice is to revive patients and ask them what they want.

"Hospice does not speed or lengthen death. It's meant to be a natural death," said Kathy McMahan, head of the Hospice and Palliative Care Association of New York State. "I feel very strongly that if people had the pain and symptom management and the psychosocial support that they deserve and is available to them, the issue of suicide would not even come up." - how out of fucking touch are these people. well, if people in hospice did start taking their lives, i guess they can't charge the insurer exorbitant amounts and pay care takes $11.50 an hour. Thinking.jpg

Hospice offers medical care, pain management, symptom relief and emotional support for terminally ill patients. Suicide is a lose-lose situation for hospice, said Bruce White, director of the Alden March Bioethics Institute at Albany Medical College. "They have a reputation they are trying to maintain that they support people in their last days of life," White said. "If patients feel that hospice is killing people off, hastening their death, hospice will never recover from that." - lel

Long before Varian became sick, the Kniselys had decided if they ever became seriously ill, they'd fly to Switzerland, where physician-assisted suicide is legal. The couple, who have no children, pictured themselves having a nice dinner and a glass of wine, and then checking in to Dignitas, a facility that helps people end their lives legally. "We like to think we control our lives, we ought to be able to control death," said Gary, a retired corporate headhunter. "To us, it was much preferable to control our death, to make the choice not to be a burden to the world or to each other -- and, hey, we've had a good life." Varian was a cheerful woman who loved to read, travel and play tennis. As her brain tumor grew, she struggled to walk and lost interest in food, Gary said. She couldn't concentrate enough to read or do crossword puzzles. Gary said she "was in mental anguish" about living a fraction of her old life.

Varian had only been in hospice care for a day when she attempted suicide. - Hospice is that fucking bad guys.

Gary said he had previously told hospice that she might choose that option. - Good Job Gary, you've just invalidated your significant other's DNR, next time keep your mouth shut, you rat.

"What they should have done is said, up front, 'If you ever decide to do it, don't let us know,'" he said. Judith Schwarz of Compassion and Choices, a nonprofit that counsels terminally ill patients on how to speed their death, said hospice should have referred the Kniselys to her group. Schwarz is a nurse and coordinator for its New York chapter.

Any clinician who hears a patient say she wants to die should explore the person's motives, Schwarz said. If pain, fear or depression is driving it, every attempt should be made to resolve it. But if the person still wants to die, she said health care workers should refer them to her group. (Puglisi, of The Community Hospice, confirmed that hospice would not tell patients about Compassion and Choices.) "Suicide is a pejorative word in this country," said. "It implies that you wimped out, that you're a coward, that you've done something that God doesn't approve of."

She said the group supports "aid-in-dying" by allowing terminally ill people to control their own death. "It's a legal and ethical choice that patients should be informed about," she said. People with cancer are 4 percent to 8 percent more likely to commit suicide than the general population, said Dr. William Breitbart, director of psychiatry services at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. Breitbart has studied terminally ill patients who want to hasten their death. The psychiatrist doesn't see his role as preventing every suicide, but preventing suicides motivated by pain, depression, delirium or loss of meaning in one's life.


But Breitbart said a small subset of people will, like Varian, still choose suicide. "She ultimately has the responsibility for the life she's created, and an existential right to question whether she wants to keep on living," he said. "Ultimately, I think she has the right to do what she wants to her life in the privacy of her home."Varian spent several days in the hospital, and was finally released after much wrangling among Gary, doctors and lawyers. At home, Varian voluntarily stopped eating and drinking. Gary and private nurses kept vigil and hospice provided comfort care. Varian died on July 19. Recalling her first abortive attempt, Gary said he didn't tell Varian he agreed with her decision to commit suicide until after she had taken the pills.

"You never know how much your opinion influences someone," he said. "I couldn't live with that."

TL;DR

Director of Hospice for the agency that stopped Varian from taking her life stated in the most round about and silver tongued way that he would rather nickel and dime her than allow her to have any sort of control over her life.
 
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thatguyakira123

thatguyakira123

Experienced
Apr 10, 2018
217
I'd sue the shit out of those people.
 
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M

MsM3talGamer

Voluntary deletion
Nov 28, 2018
1,504
Disgusting motherfuckers. This makes me seethe with rage. What the hell has happened to allowing a terminally ill person a dignified and peaceful ending? I'm glad I'll be off this shit planet soon.
 
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alwaysbored

alwaysbored

Member
Dec 10, 2018
5
We really need as a people to take away the demonization of death. It can be peaceful, one can die happy and willing. Content with their life and ready to move on. I do understand the desire to help those with mental crisis, as their life can truly turn around with just having someone who cares. But those that are terminally ill; that have lived and loved.. it's sad that we are so scared of death that it is taboo subject.

I myself feel as though I cannot talk openly about death and it's implications without being seen as a crazy person. Forced to talk in secrecy about a fact of life. I feel as though this is all wrapped up in PC culture in many ways.

Embracing death in my mind is required to truly appreciate life at all. Anything conceived as always being there naturally is not respected and given the credence it deserves.
 
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15dec

15dec

ember in the dark
Dec 7, 2018
1,550
She even had a DNR in order as well, but hospice workers ignored it. This is all manners messed up. When logic goes out the window and emotions come into play, it proves disastrous for everyone involved.
That's beyond fucked, I didn't even realise she had a DNR order
 
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Zzzzz

Zzzzz

Nothing compares to the bliss of death.
Aug 8, 2018
879
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/blog...tient-revived-after-suicide-attempt/2874/amp/

This probably sounds kinda horrible but why resuscitate her? She's terminally ill, she just wants to die in peace on her own terms, not in a hospital bed in pain, slowly deteriorating. Honestly, it's so ridiculous.

What you said is not wrong at all. What they did to her was Wrong. They even admitted that they did it to protect their reputation. Hospice obviously isn't very concerned about respecting the will of the patient.
 
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bigj75

bigj75

“From Knowledge springs power."
Sep 1, 2018
2,540
She even had a DNR in order as well, but hospice workers ignored it. This is all manners messed up. When logic goes out the window and emotions come into play, it proves disastrous for everyone involved.
So true. Emotions are fine for artistic pleasure but when it comes to solving problems and diminishing suffering logic should be primary.
 
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Deafsn0w

Deafsn0w

I will buy you a dog if you like my posts
Sep 4, 2018
2,488
Poor woman
 
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Kdawg2018

Kdawg2018

Still here...
Nov 10, 2018
272
I wish she tried exit bag
 
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