Suicide/Murder

[eternalbliss22]

I absolutely believe in the right of every adult to end their life if they choose to. I yearn for it myself & am battling SI. I see many posts about people thinking of involving unwilling participants in taking their life by train or cop or whatever. I have to admit that I've had fleeting thoughts of head on collisions or being shot, but the thought of the trauma or possibly even causing the death of someone else is a powerful stopping point for me. This is a great platform for expression & I don't want to hinder others from expressing themselves. I do want ask others to take a serious moment to think about the difference in ending your life & forcing other's to take your life & the trauma that it causes.

 

[Ki_Nam]

Yeah I just really hate the idea of having someone else kill me. I'm an isolated person, and do not wish to intrude on anyone's life. And I will continue to be even at the end.

 

[SexyIncél]

In a sane world, this'd be a non-problem. Suicide would be easier than putting on a uniform and killing people in other countries

If we don't want others involuntarily participating in someone's suicide, let's make suicide voluntary. Otherwise, we all share responsibility for the predictable outcomes of such prohibitions, not just the desperately suicidal person

 

[Looking]

If we don't want others involuntarily participating in someone's suicide, let's make suicide voluntary. Otherwise, we all share responsibility for the predictable outcomes of such prohibitions, not just the desperately suicidal person

This is a hard no from me. This isn't a stranger's "reasonability" to be forced to live with trauma because lawmakers don't make suicide legal. Most people want to kill themselves due to the trauma they've been put through, and we all agree that they shouldn't of suffered from that trauma to begin with. So it's okay to do it in regards of suicide, because it's what we want? No...

I get your overall argument of making it legal, and I agree with that, but I don't think forcing others to live with trauma because it's illegal make any sense. Unless I'm missing what your argument is?

 

[Foxes]

This is a great platform for expression & I don't want to hinder others from expressing themselves. I do want ask others to take a serious moment to think about the difference in ending your life & forcing other's to take your life & the trauma that it causes.

I have a friend who works for the NYC transit system who witnessed someone's suicide because he was operating the train and it changed him overnight. He said that the moment it happened, he went into shock and blacked out. He's never struggled with depression before and now he has issues with it and struggles with PTSD from the event. He still hasn't returned to work and it's been a year since the incident occurred. I agree with your sentiment 100%.

 

[SexyIncél]

I get your overall argument of making it legal, and I agree with that, but I don't think forcing others to live with trauma because it's illegal make any sense. Unless I'm missing what your argument is?

It's drop-dead easy for me to commit suicide. Not so easy for most others. In fact, it'd be moral for me to gently and lovingly help people ctb, so some poor train driver doesn't have to. I could dispose of their body, so some hotel cleaning lady doesn't have to stumble upon it. Win-win for everyone, except me. But no, that'd just be too simple and humane, wouldn't it? I could take all the trauma onto myself. But as it stands, I'd risk being thrown into hell on earth

So what's the predictable consequence? They jump off a building, maybe landing on someone. Or jump in front of a train, or god knows what

And we can wag our fingers all we want. Opine about the morality. But that accomplishes very little

Because we're dealing with brains crumbling after years of fight-or-flight. Suicidal people who observe that moral calculations are irrelevant in a world that'll stop existing for them; that the trauma they may cause no longer outweighs their own intolerable trauma of living

As usual, shoving the responsibility on those least able to bear it. Of course, if we really care about this, there's many things we can do. For example, it's easier to preempt suicide than to deal with a fully suicidal person. Many work on this, improving people's lives so we have fewer people asking silly things like "How do I decapitate myself under a train?"

 

[Looking]

It's drop-dead easy for me to commit suicide. Not so easy for most others. In fact, it'd be moral for me to gently and lovingly help people ctb, so some poor train driver doesn't have to. I could dispose of their body, so some hotel cleaning lady doesn't have to stumble upon it. Win-win for everyone, except me. But no, that'd just be too simple and humane, wouldn't it? Exposes me to massive risk. I could take all the trauma onto myself. But as it stands, I'd risk being thrown into hell on earth

So what's the predictable consequence? They jump off a building, maybe landing on someone. Or jump in front of a train, or god knows what

And we can wag our fingers all we want. Opine about the morality. But that accomplishes very little

Because we're dealing with brains crumbling after years of fight-or-flight. Suicidal people who observe that moral calculations are irrelevant in a world that'll stop existing for them; that the trauma they may cause no longer outweighs their own intolerable trauma of living

As usual, shoving the responsibility on those least able to bear it. Of course, if we really care about this, there's many things we can do. For example, it's easier to preempt suicide than to deal with a fully suicidal person. Many work on this, improving people's lives so we have fewer people ask silly things like "How do I decapitate myself under a train?"

Forcing others to do things, especially without their consent, is a form of abuse. (And I shouldn't have to explain that it's not okay to abuse someone because you're in a lot of pain.)

When it comes to nonconsensual sex, it's called rape. When it comes to hitting someone, it's called physical violence. When it comes to making unwarranted advancements towards someone, it's called verbal harassment. When it comes to groping someone random, it's called assault. Forcing someone to live when they don't want to, it is deemed cruel.

Sometimes, your desire to die doesn't override someone else's consent, and sometimes your pain isn't more "painful" than someone else's. The consent argument doesn't disappear because you won't live to deal with the consequences.

With that being said, I get what you mean overall. Like I said, I think allowing others to assist others in suicide in a legal means is a good thing. I'm not sure about about you killing them and then disposing their body, lmao, but I think the government should provide humane ways for others out, or allow product makers to ship "suicide" products. Right now you just get charged for selling things for the intention of suicide.

Everything you've stated above is a fine line between assistance and murder, and I don't think we should allow murder under the assumption it was suicide, even in the ideal world of where suicide is easy to accomplish. Allowing official channels to commit suicide will always be beneficial, but allowing someone to shoot you in the head under the guise of a suicide attempt is not inherently beneficial to the society you'd be leaving behind. (Which will continue to exist, whether you're there to experience it or not.)

I'm obviously not here to debate what kinds of "legal suicide" we should allow - I'm mainly here to clarify that just because your brain is "crumbling", it's not someone else's reasonability. Your argument of reasonability can (and does) apply to forms of abuse, and as stated before, I don't think I need to explain why abuse isn't a vibe.

If you don't understand why it's a form of abuse, then there's not much to say on my end, as I'm not going to start debating what is defined as abuse.

 

[SexyIncél]

Forcing others to do things, especially without their consent, is a form of abuse.

Good. Then we agree: let's reduce this

 

[Looking]

Good. Then we agree: let's reduce this

Yes, obviously. I was just disagreeing with your "method" of reducing it, not the concept of legal suicide in general. (Like what OP was stating.)

 

[SexyIncél]

Yes, obviously. I was just disagreeing with your "method" of reducing it, not the concept of legal suicide in general.

Well, do you disagree with working to legalize suicide? And me helping people ctb, to spare drivers and hotel workers? And improving things so fewer people commit suicide and thus traumatize others less?

Because those are among the "methods" I mentioned. People do these things. And we don't have to stop there. For example, we could even invent weird methods that minimally inconvenience others and spare society the trauma of reviving/rehabbing a survivor who just blew away some of their chest

Suicidal people share responsibility for their actions. But they don't bear individual responsibility alone. You and I do too, in proportion to how much we can affect outcomes

Lecturing desperate people, with few choices, doesn't strike me as entirely effective. But then again, maybe it's just because I'm not a youtuber

 

[TransilvanianHunger]

Suicidal people share responsibility for their actions. But they don't bear individual responsibility alone. You and I do too, in proportion to how much we can affect outcomes

Lecturing desperate people, with few choices, doesn't strike me as entirely effective. But then again, maybe it's just because I'm not a youtuber

I get where you're coming from and I agree with your sentiment, but I'd argue that the difference here is choosing to negatively affect another individual while committing suicide, not the effects of a public suicide on "society" at large. I say this because this is one of the things I've decided for myself: whatever I end up doing, I have no right to traumatise another person. I'd like my wishes and autonomy to be respected, but I have a responsibility to also respect others. If I jump in front of a car, "society" doesn't give a fuck, but Steve or Martha or whoever it is that ended up running me over will have to deal with that trauma for quite a while.

Should we work towards eliminating the causes that push desperate people to jump in front of cars or trains. Yes, absolutely. But it still doesn't sit well with me to say that harming other individuals is acceptable because, as a society, we've failed to care for those who suffer.

 

[SexyIncél]

I get where you're coming from and I agree with your sentiment, but I'd argue that the difference here is choosing to negatively affect another individual while committing suicide, not the effects of a public suicide on "society" at large. I say this because this is one of the things I've decided for myself: whatever I end up doing, I have no right to traumatise another person. I'd like my wishes and autonomy to be respected, but I have a responsibility to also respect others. If I jump in front of a car, "society" doesn't give a fuck, but Steve or Martha or whoever it is that ended up running me over will have to deal with that trauma for quite a while.

Should we work towards eliminating the causes that push desperate people to jump in front of cars or trains. Yes, absolutely. But it still doesn't sit well with me to say that harming other individuals is acceptable because, as a society, we've failed to care for those who suffer.

The problem's more general. We harm people all the time. Buying my phone harmed the kids who mined cobalt for its battery. In fact, I'm rewarded financially for pure selfishness, disregarding everyone else affected by my actions. Punished if I won't, beaten by those who will

We might even hate it, but our freedom to act otherwise was largely disabled

Suicide's oddly similar. We ("society") disable our freedom to act morally. We're systematically rewarded for traumatizing others. The vast majority of suicides likely cause trauma. People discover our corpses literally hanging around

After all, I seriously doubt anyone here plans to sit in a coffin, blow their brains out, and fall on a button that triggers a robot to push a hill of dirt on them. The next day, a scheduled email manipulates friends/family to weep in admiration that you gave your life to save many others...

Moralizing aside, who wants to crush their skull under a train? It's an uncontrolled environment. I'm sure the vast majority would prefer better methods. But they typically lack access

 

[TransilvanianHunger]

The problem's more general. We harm people all the time. Buying my phone harmed the kids who mined cobalt for its battery. In fact, I'm rewarded financially for pure selfishness, disregarding everyone else affected by my actions. Punished if I won't, beaten by those who will

We might even hate it, but our freedom to act otherwise was largely disabled

Suicide's oddly similar. We ("society") disable our freedom to act morally. We're systematically rewarded for traumatizing others. The vast majority of suicides likely cause trauma. People discover our corpses literally hanging around

After all, I seriously doubt anyone here plans to lie in a coffin, blow their brains out, and fall on a button that triggers a robot to push a hill of dirt on them. The next day, a scheduled email manipulates friends/family to weep in admiration that you gave your life to save many others...

Moralizing aside, who wants to crush their skull under a train? It's an uncontrolled environment. I'm sure the vast majority would prefer better methods. But they typically lack access

I can't argue with any of this, honestly. There is a systemic problem. But I wonder, should we just accept that our freedom to act morally has been restricted, and keep going? We have to play the game to some degree just so we can continue interacting with the system, but I try to avoid adding to the pile of trauma and horror as best I can.

That being said, I'm not about to judge someone who, at their breaking point, doesn't stop to think about the effects that their actions will have on others. Ideally, we wouldn't be letting people fall into such despair. I fundamentally disagree with that position, but I understand why some people don't care.

 

[FuneralCry]

For me, the problem lies in the fact that we exist in this world that restricts access to more peaceful methods so as a result suffering people often feel like they have no choice but to resort to the train method. Some people really do have limited access to methods and they just want to be gone so they shouldn't be judged for ending their existence this way. It's not the fault of suicidal people that this society is so anti suicide.

 

[Galileo3630]

There was a murder case done on a man which was hiking with his girlfriend at the time, or maybe an ex, I don't recall, but she got interrogated by police because she was the main suspect for his death and her story went as follows:

"I didn't murder him, he was sobbing to me, begging me to kill him and to stop his suffering, so I just went behind him, asked if he's sure, he said yes and I choked him until he was unconscious".

The woman didn't seem phased at all during the interrogation and it really did seem like she simply murdered him and used that excuse, but the entire time the investigators were interviewing her, they were shocked to the core and the man's family members were absolutely devastated. So in my opinion, having an addition or an outside party partake in your death just overcomplicates things and wastes city resources, such as investigations and whatnot, if it was an accident and etc. Which is why I choose to pass away peacefully either in my bed or in a tent deep in the woods.

 

[CentreMid]

I absolutely believe in the right of every adult to end their life if they choose to. I yearn for it myself & am battling SI. I see many posts about people thinking of involving unwilling participants in taking their life by train or cop or whatever. I have to admit that I've had fleeting thoughts of head on collisions or being shot, but the thought of the trauma or possibly even causing the death of someone else is a powerful stopping point for me. This is a great platform for expression & I don't want to hinder others from expressing themselves. I do want ask others to take a serious moment to think about the difference in ending your life & forcing other's to take your life & the trauma that it causes.

I agree. While ultimately it's not up to me how people decide to end their own lives, I don't particularly like the methods that involve bringing unwilling participants into the picture, and would not go about suicide this way for myself