Suicide is Unethical or morally wrong or Is ethical morally right? What are your thoughts?

[JamieJambo]

I was just having this discussion with some other in another thread and thought it deserved it's own thread

I personally think its quite possible that in most cases, especially when we are young and healthy, but are depressed, (not talking about nearing end of life) suicide might be unethical. I am saying this of the basis or idea that the universe is inherently ethical ie there is more to life than just chance

Basically what I am saying is that suicide might be bad karma

But maybe you think otherwise, I would be interested to hear your thoughts?

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I do not believe so. I believe that we were forced into being born and should be able to escape whenever we want. There is no inherent benefit to society or ourselves to continue suffering when things are pointless. To repeat what I said on your other thread, are you really living if you're suffering all of the time and unable to be happy? Incidentally, suicide wouldn't be needed if euthanasia for the depressed was allowed. However, if you want something done, you have to do it yourself.

Why should I continue living and leeching off society while miserable? I don't intend to work, go to school or contribute to society. All I am doing is collecting SSI while just being in a constant state of depression and sex dysphoria. What purpose does my being alive serve? Ideally, I'd have the life circumstances to not be depressed, but that clearly was not in the cards. I drew an unplayable hand from the deck of life, and sometimes you have to "scoop" and admit defeat.

 

[JamieJambo]

I do not believe so. I believe that we were forced into being born and should be able to escape whenever we want. There is no inherent benefit to society or ourselves to continue suffering when things are pointless. To repeat what I said on your other thread, are you really living if you're suffering all of the time and unable to be happy? Incidentally, suicide wouldn't be needed if euthanasia for the depressed was allowed. However, if you want something done, you have to do it yourself.

Why should I continue living and leeching off society while miserable? I don't intend to work, go to school or contribute to society. All I am doing is collecting SSI while just being in a constant state of depression and sex dysphoria. What purpose does my being alive serve? Ideally, I'd have the life circumstances to not be depressed, but that clearly was not in the cards. I drew an unplayable hand from the deck of life, and sometimes you have to "scoop" and admit defeat.

Have you ever read Viktor Frankles Book a mans search for meaning?

He was in aushwitz and found a way to be happy in those conditions. He says that our suffering is for the purpose of making something beautiful out of it, like helping others who are facing similar.

He says that suffering has a purpose and can bring benefit to others, if we are willing to work with it and overcome our challenges

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Have you ever read Viktor Frankles Book a mans search for meaning?

He was in aushwitz and found a way to be happy in those conditions. He says that our suffering is for the purpose of making something beautiful out of it, like helping others who are facing similar.

He says that suffering has a purpose and can bring benefit to others, if we are willing to work with it and overcome our challenges

Nope, and I don't believe in "COPIUM" being the be all end all solution for people.

I know what I want and need to be happy, and it is unobtainable for a variety of reasons. I will not settle for less and I will not settle for copium.

If other people can handle coping, then more power to them. Suicide and the right to die should be an individual decision after all.

 

[houseofleaves]

He says that our suffering is for the purpose of making something beautiful out of it, like helping others who are facing similar.

He says that suffering has a purpose and can bring benefit to others, if we are willing to work with it and overcome our challenges

He had to believe in this to cope with the immense trauma he went through. Suffering has no purpose. Life has no purpose. "Work with it", "overcome challenges"… — bullshit, ok? It's all survivorship bias.

 

[FuneralCry]

There could never be anything wrong with suicide, we all have the right to exit at a time of our own choosing, we have no obligations to stay alive as we did not ask to exist, and no one needs to justify their reasons for leaving. All suffering is completely meaningless and unnecessary, there is no benefit to it. I do not believe in bad karma or religion or that life has any meaning. We only exist for the sake of existing and staying alive is just delaying the inevitable which is death. No one should be forced to live against their wishes. Life is just a pointless experience that we go through for the sake of it.

 

[Siterfau]

It's hard to take any moral high-ground argument against suicide seriously when we're essentially born against our will. Even in a perfect world where all of us end up being happy, parents still commit the fundamentally morally-grey/immoral decision (at least, IMO) of making somebody else's choice for them, without their input or say-so. And the morality of this decision gets worsened by the fact that we don't actually live in a perfect world.

 

[sharky]

I see nothing wrong with suicide because you are not hurting anyone (not talking about your family's emotional pain) but yourself and it is your choice, regardless if you are depressed or just want to die for the sake of it. It's your life. I don't think there's bad karma with suicide, because you are not hurting anyone but yourself. If suicide was bad karma then hitting yourself or doing drugs or doing anything else that is bad for you would be too.

 

[JamieJambo]

I see nothing wrong with suicide because you are not hurting anyone (not talking about your family's emotional pain) but yourself and it is your choice, regardless if you are depressed or just want to die for the sake of it. It's your life. I don't think there's bad karma with suicide, because you are not hurting anyone but yourself. If suicide was bad karma then hitting yourself or doing drugs or doing anything else that is bad for you would be too.

Doing drugs would be considered bad karma, in any philosophy that talks about karma, so would any self harm

 

[DPJ187]

I wouldn't say its unethical, there are many countries where its considered a noble act, Japan being one of them. I think it's more to do with have your properly tried to live before taking that decision. Living is scary, it's hard, its painful but millions of people do manage so we at least have to try. I think that having an opt out button for people who have chosen to die is perfectly moral, ithink what we have now, forcing us to become criminals to end our pain whatever that may be, that's crazy. That's immoral, if an animal was in pain and suffering we would allow it to be put to sleep, yet in humans its life at all costs. It just seems totally backwards.

 

[thedaywillcome]

It's hard to take any moral high-ground argument against suicide seriously when we're essentially born against our will. Even in a perfect world where all of us end up being happy, parents still commit the fundamentally morally-grey/immoral decision (at least, IMO) of making somebody else's choice for them, without their input or say-so. And the morality of this decision gets worsened by the fact that we don't actually live in a perfect world.

Some parent just fuxx

 

[JamieJambo]

I think it all depends on whether you believe in a God or not.

If not then there is no real inherent basis for morality

However if there is a God, then morality makes more sense.

If there is a God, and we are God's creatures, then to take our own lives might be against the laws of his universe to take your own life, because maybe its not your life as much you thought, maybe your his

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Well, I am not going to take the possibility of god existing into account because there is no scientific evidence that it does. Just like I am not just going to willy nilly believe someone that says that my life will get better because again, there is no evidence to support it and from where I am sitting, things cannot and will not get better for me.

I have actually posed the following question to quite a few people that oppose suicide/euthanasia for the depressed and have yet to get an adequate argument (or any type of an attempt at an argument for that matter), but can you give me a logical reason, not an emotional one (sadness in the family etc.) or philosophical (God doesn't approve, you will go to hell or some variation of that, etc.), but a logical reason why someone whom is suffering constantly and extremely unhappy living should continue living? Because from where I am standing, there doesn't seem to be a logical one at all.

Like, people are pro choice on abortion, sex reassignment surgeries, etc., but when it comes to the right to die, apparently that is a bit too progressive because death, which is contradicted by people being pro-choice on abortion, because that involves the prevention/abandonment of life as well.

 

[loststar]

I dont believe suicide is ethicaly right or wrong. Only the circumstances leading up to it can be fight or wrong. Ec an eldarly person being forced into by a family who view them as a burden, that in my mind would be ethicaly wrong suicide as the persons free will is beening infringed upon

 

[antoniamonroe]

I would be curious to read arguments that aren't basically "your body belongs to God and He doesn't want you to do it."

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I would be curious to read arguments that aren't basically "your body belongs to God and He doesn't want you to do it."

Honestly seems like that's all anyone has when it comes to arguments against pro-choice. Can never find an argument supported by logic.

 

[antoniamonroe]

"In Hinduism, suicide is spiritually unacceptable. Generally, taking your own life is considered a violation of the code of ahimsa (non-violence) and therefore equally sinful as murdering another." -- from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_suicide

I suppose this makes sense to me, as someone who believes in non-violence. But I behave in many ways that I would consider unethical by this standard (I'm not vegan, for example) and I also believe in bodily autonomy so I don't believe in forcing other people to behave according to my own standards if their choices don't harm others.

 

[Siterfau]

I would be curious to read arguments that aren't basically "your body belongs to God and He doesn't want you to do it."

One argument I've heard people say is that allowing suicide is immoral because suicidal people aren't in the right frame of mind to make such a huge, life-altering/ending decision.

The problem with that is that those people also always seem to think of the "right frame of mind" as not being suicidal, which just seems unfair.

 

[that_is_not_okay]

Morally neutral and should be judged in a case-to-case basis. Suicide because you're terminally ill? Morally correct. Suicide to escape imprisonment or similar consequences? Morally wrong and you're a coward.

Suicide isn't so different from murder. Sometimes killing another human being is okay, sometimes it is not.

 

[JamieJambo]

"In Hinduism, suicide is spiritually unacceptable. Generally, taking your own life is considered a violation of the code of ahimsa (non-violence) and therefore equally sinful as murdering another." -- from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_suicide

I suppose this makes sense to me, as someone who believes in non-violence. But I behave in many ways that I would consider unethical by this standard (I'm not vegan, for example) and I also believe in bodily autonomy so I don't believe in forcing other people to behave according to my own standards if their choices don't harm others.

Okay, I like this point. I am the same I come from a Buddhist background. Buddhism also adopts the idea of Ahimsa, it also says that we are not separate but interconnected with everything. Every action you do effects the whole world. Its our illusion of selfhood that makes us think we are separate. But in reality we are not. So therefore the act of killing oneself effects many people, including yourself,

Also the idea in Buddhism says that we don't actually own anything, even ourselves, there is no Self. As in we are everything. To act is if we do have self (as in separate from our surrounding and other) is to create negative karma. Killing oneself in Buddhism would be to act thinking you are a self, and thus acting out of delusion, creating bad karma for oneself.

Look I am not trying to preach here, but I am more looking to connect with people who are both wanting an escape from life but also who share similar views to myself

i choose to ctb soon. i don't have to have a reason or give a reason. Can you or anyone command me and tell me i have to live or that there is a purpose for my life. there is no purpose for my life . i want no purpose. What i want is non-existence.

God no its not up to me to tell you anything

 

[WorthlessTrash]

I'm just curious what your goal is in trying to debate if suicide is immoral or something.

 

[JamieJambo]

i won't listen to anyone anyway. it was a rhetorical question. I choose to ctb. no one will stop me.

I wish you the best in life or in any of your choices

I'm just curious what your goal is in trying to debate if suicide is immoral or something.

Tbh I am trying to find out if there are any people here who would like to end it, but who share similar views to myself
I'm not trying to guilt anyone and I apologize if it came across like that

Your choices are your own and I respect that

 

[antoniamonroe]

Look I am not trying to preach here, but I am more looking to connect with people who are both wanting an escape from life but also who share similar views to myself

It's good to clarify, but I did understand your original post to be asking for a discussion about our opinions on morals/ethics of a choice, not whether we should be allowed to make the choice.

My desire to ctb stems from the fact that I am disabled by chronic illness. For now, I have chosen to attempt recovery and this forum has renewed my interest in Buddhism. I'm a spiritual person who hasn't had much structure or guidance in that way. I think that if I could find a way to cope with my own suffering, it would be better to continue to live, because I do believe that all life is interconnected and that there will be consequences I can't forsee or perhaps even understand if I do ctb.

 

[WorthlessTrash]

Tbh I am trying to find out if there are any people here who would like to end it, but who share similar views to myself
I'm not trying to guilt anyone and I apologize if it came across like that

Your choices are your own and I respect that

I feel like most people who are ready to CTB aren't concerned with morals or anything. Their only concern is to stop suffering.

But no, I do not believe it to be a moral issue. I think that everyone should have a right to end their life if need be. My body, my choice. No one owns it but me.

 

[Dot]

D/ nt thnk c.t.b = binry issu

Sme ppl ratnlly wn2 c.t.b
Othrs d/ nt wn2 c.t.b bt fl thre = n/ othr chce
Othrs c.t.b impslvely in emotnl criss whn hd thy survivd thy cld hve livd lng & hppy lfe
Othr ppl wll b emotnlly traumtsd b/ c.t.b
Sme ppl wll undrstnd y w/ c.t.b & sme wll nt
Slf wld nt wn2 b calld immorl bcse own sffrng bcme xtrme

= nt simpl sbjct

 

[JamieJambo]

It's good to clarify, but I did understand your original post to be asking for a discussion about our opinions on morals/ethics of a choice, not whether we should be allowed to make the choice.

My desire to ctb stems from the fact that I am disabled by chronic illness. For now, I have chosen to attempt recovery and this forum has renewed my interest in Buddhism. I'm a spiritual person who hasn't had much structure or guidance in that way. I think that if I could find a way to cope with my own suffering, it would be better to continue to live, because I do believe that all life is interconnected and that there will be consequences I can't forsee or perhaps even understand if I do ctb.

Fantastic, If I could help. Which country do you live?
Basically the Buddha said if you want to progress in the Dharma, (The buddhas teaching) practice Sangha, ,the community of Buddhist, which is the third jewel of buddhism

 

[antoniamonroe]

Fantastic, If I could help. Which country do you live?

I'm in the United States!

 

[Dr Iron Arc]

I don't really care about ethics OR morals, which consequently means that me dying is actually the most moral and ethical thing I can do.

 

[JamieJambo]

I'm in the United States!

There is a really good group to get involved with called Triratna, They have a great sangha, and are easy to become a part of

 

[antoniamonroe]

There is a really good group to get involved with called Triratna, They have a great sangha, and are easy to become a part of

Oh fantastic, thank you!