Discussion Suicide gatekeeping

[Daxter_87]

I know many of you (if not most) won't agree with this. Heated comments lie ahead...

I will start by clearing up that I'm not a minor, just to avoid further misunderstandings and complications. Once that's clarified, we can truly begin.

I believe in the right to die for absolutely 100% of the population, meaning that there are no restrictions whatsoever (age/gender/health/etc.). That's right. Absolutely anyone should be able to simply request a service that provides them with a painless and reliable way to die. I believe that minors should be allowed to do this as well.

Suicide doesn't really need to be justified. We should simply be granted with the freedom to choose whether we want to stay alive (with all that it entails) or we want to leave existence; after all, nobody signed up for this, and some people might find it unacceptable right from the beginning. And who am I to say that they are wrong? Because they don't know better? Too inmature? Such arrogance to think that we know better than them what's best for them. They are the ones experiencing their lives, and if they feel that life is just too painful, then that is the truth for them, and no amount of gaslighting words is going to change that fact.

Not providing everyone with this right means that people are imprisoned, because they lack true freedom to choose. They can only choose from whatever tiny deck of contrived options that the system gives them. And the worst thing is that we are told that we are free to choose, but that is far from the truth. Yes, we (some of us anyway) can choose, but only from the options within life. We can't choose whether we want life or something else (nonexistence).

People simply assume that life must be lived first before wanting to CTB, but why? What exactly is the rational reason that we are obligated to try everything before trying to end it all? This is just an assumption, and it's not really based on anything but emotional beliefs that have been ingrained into people's heads.

 

[MusicGuy]

I get your point, but they should not be able to do it anytime, maybe there could be a procedure, like "You request suicide today and if you still feel like this in x period of time, we'll allow you to suicide".

The problem with minors in my opinion is they haven't lived lots of experiences, they might be acting based on emotions that are temporary

 

[EmmaD]

I don't have the same beliefs as you, but I still think it's an interesting discussion. So anything I say in this reply is not intended to start an argument AT ALL, just curious as to what your thoughts would be.
But I'm interested in the view that it's wrong to judge minors as too immature to make decisions. You said a minor should have the right to die if they choose. So for example an 8 year old who hates life could choose to die. And it could be an 8 year old suffering an objectively intolerable existence.. or it might be a child with an objectively good life who for whatever reason, emotional immaturity etc, lack of understanding, wanted to experience dying.
If you would give that 8 year old the right to choose, then how far would you extend their right over their own body? Would you think it was ok for them to drink alcohol? Or have sex?
I know at this point you are only talking about the black and white situation of a person (of any age) being forced into existence, and made to live against their will and therefore having the right to leave. But it will follow that with that right to choose life or death ie the biggest decision anyone can make, will come questions about what else that individual will have the right to choose, and at what age that is appropriate.

 

[Pidgeons_Sparrows]

No it shouldnt be allowed for minors. Their brains are still developing after all

 

[Nights]

I don't have the same beliefs as you, but I still think it's an interesting discussion. So anything I say in this reply is not intended to start an argument AT ALL, just curious as to what your thoughts would be.
But I'm interested in the view that it's wrong to judge minors as too immature to make decisions. You said a minor should have the right to die if they choose. So for example an 8 year old who hates life could choose to die. And it could be an 8 year old suffering an objectively intolerable existence.. or it might be a child with an objectively good life who for whatever reason, emotional immaturity etc, lack of understanding, wanted to experience dying.
If you would give that 8 year old the right to choose, then how far would you extend their right over their own body? Would you think it was ok for them to drink alcohol? Or have sex?
I know at this point you are only talking about the black and white situation of a person (of any age) being forced into existence, and made to live against their will and therefore having the right to leave. But it will follow that with that right to choose life or death ie the biggest decision anyone can make, will come questions about what else that individual will have the right to choose, and at what age that is appropriate.

But what if a 8 year old kid's wanted to suicide due to *suffering*, i think there's no way how it could be moral to gatekeep someone from ending his suffering even throught suicide as there's no reason to think everyone is obligated to exist even against their will due to their age

 

[EmmaD]

But what if a 8 year old kid's wanted to suicide due to *suffering*, i think there's no way how it could be moral to gatekeep someone from ending his suffering even throught suicide as there's no reason to think everyone is obligated to exist even against their will due to their age

I guess the counter argument would be - 1) how would you define 'suffering', and - 2) is an 8 year old emotionally and psychologically capable to make the judgment that their 'suffering' is bad enough for death to be the answer?

 

[Vizzy]

I know many of you (if not most) won't agree with this. Heated comments lie ahead...

I will start by clearing up that I'm not a minor, just to avoid further misunderstandings and complications. Once that's clarified, we can truly begin.

I believe in the right to die for absolutely 100% of the population, meaning that there are no restrictions whatsoever (age/gender/health/etc.). That's right. Absolutely anyone should be able to simply request a service that provides them with a painless and reliable way to die. I believe that minors should be allowed to do this as well.

Suicide doesn't really need to be justified. We should simply be granted with the freedom to choose whether we want to stay alive (with all that it entails) or we want to leave existence; after all, nobody signed up for this, and some people might find it unacceptable right from the beginning. And who am I to say that they are wrong? Because they don't know better? Too inmature? Such arrogance to think that we know better than them what's best for them. They are the ones experiencing their lives, and if they feel that life is just too painful, then that is the truth for them, and no amount of gaslighting words is going to change that fact.

Not providing everyone with this right means that people are imprisoned, because they lack true freedom to choose. They can only choose from whatever tiny deck of contrived options that the system gives them. And the worst thing is that we are told that we are free to choose, but that is far from the truth. Yes, we (some of us anyway) can choose, but only from the options within life. We can't choose whether we want life or something else (nonexistence).

People simply assume that life must be lived first before wanting to CTB, but why? What exactly is the rational reason that we are obligated to try everything before trying to end it all? This is just an assumption, and it's not really based on anything but emotional beliefs that have been ingrained into people's heads.

If minors are allowed to do ctb anytime they want, then minors should be allowed to do everything like cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, sex, crime convictions should be same as adults, minors should be put in adult prison not in juvenile facility, curse, Friday night out, sex party are you okay if a minor say he/she wanna do all these, if you are okay to allow all the stuffs I mentioned then we can allow minors to do ctb whenever they want.

They are a minor for a reason, their brain is not completely developed and immature, IMO I think a person should be allowed to do ctb after 21+

 

[Daxter_87]

I don't have the same beliefs as you, but I still think it's an interesting discussion. So anything I say in this reply is not intended to start an argument AT ALL, just curious as to what your thoughts would be.
But I'm interested in the view that it's wrong to judge minors as too immature to make decisions. You said a minor should have the right to die if they choose. So for example an 8 year old who hates life could choose to die. And it could be an 8 year old suffering an objectively intolerable existence.. or it might be a child with an objectively good life who for whatever reason, emotional immaturity etc, lack of understanding, wanted to experience dying.
If you would give that 8 year old the right to choose, then how far would you extend their right over their own body? Would you think it was ok for them to drink alcohol? Or have sex?
I know at this point you are only talking about the black and white situation of a person (of any age) being forced into existence, and made to live against their will and therefore having the right to leave. But it will follow that with that right to choose life or death ie the biggest decision anyone can make, will come questions about what else that individual will have the right to choose, and at what age that is appropriate.

I think that choosing to die and drinking alcohol and/or having sex are not really the same thing. For instance, drinking alcohol could have consequences for the child's brain development, whereas dying wouldn't have any consequences for that child at all; once they are dead, they are dead, and they can't regret it, suffer because of it, etc.

 

[Vizzy]

I think that choosing to die and drinking alcohol and/or having sex are not really the same thing. For instance, drinking alcohol could have consequences for the child's brain development, whereas dying wouldn't have any consequences for that child at all; once they are dead, they are dead, and they can't regret it, suffer because of it, etc.

Nah they are same but in a different scenario, that's a contradictory view

You are okay if a minor want to ctb but not okay if they wanna drink alcohol and sex make it make sense

 

[Nights]

I guess the counter argument would be - 1) how would you define 'suffering', and - 2) is an 8 year old emotionally and psychologically capable to make the judgment that their 'suffering' is bad enough for death to be the answer?

i define suffering as feeling pain, and no a 8 year old isn't cable of making serious decisions, and suicide is the most serious decision to ever make since it finishes your whole existence and that's something you can't change, but i think it makes sense to want suffering to stop even if that's through suicide, nobody wishes to experience pain, you could say suicide is a very serious decision and children shouldn't make such decisions but even children isn't obligated to exist they have the right to try to stop feeling pain even if that's through suicide, i understand children's reason to suicide might be dumb but even if their reasons might be dumb they still suffer and suffering can never be a dumb reason to suicide

 

[sorrowful]

I was given a bad hand from the very beginning. I never once truly wanted to live. These thoughts have stuck with me from a young age. I wish I never had to make it as far as I did, if I could go back I would 100% prevent myself from doing so, I'd save myself from a lot of suffering and trauma.

It is kind of a gray area though. One can argue kids cannot make such a decision. I have held my beliefs quite strongly my entire life. I knew how cruel the world can be, I knew I didn't fit in and it just wasn't a place for me, I understood death and what it really meant. All of that never changed.

 

[FuneralCry]

It's undeniable that the right to die is a human right no matter what as without the option of a way to leave then existence is both imprisonment and slavery, it's inhumane to want to force someone to exist in this harmful and chaotic world when they wish for the relief that only not-existing can bring. Saying that suicide would be "wrong" would of course make little sense when to die solves all problems in which there were never a need for in the first place. Existence holds unlimited potential for harm while in comparison to not exist is the absence of all harm, one cannot be harmed by not existing which is why I've always wished for nothingness as being conscious and aware just leads to unnecessary suffering.

But I just think that after all it's a personal decision when to leave and nobody else should have any right to interfere in that. The reality is that existence is just an meaningless consequence of other people deciding to so selfishly procreate, people shouldn't be forced to pay the price because of other people's harmful actions if they don't wish to. I personally think that it's irrational to wish to exist in this nightmarish world that is filled with endless potential for suffering and senseless cruelty, no matter what I would always see it as being preferable to not exist.

 

[Dreadle]

I can definitely see both sides of the coin that's been discussed. There's two things that pop out here, the freedom of choice and the quality of life.

Quite rightly there's a reason why children don't have the freedom to make adult choices.

At the same time, freedom to make a choice is also important in cases of poor quality of life. There are some terrible end of life conditions which some children only live in suffering and die very young. A choice to end their life should be given.

I have a lot of physical conditions from birth that even though small and unseen, have a massive impact on my life. If it's that bad for me, I think about how much worse off children with motor nurone who can't walk, feed themselves etc, how cruel is it for parents to keep them alive.

 

[Valky]

I fully agree with Vizzy here, there is a reason that minors aren't allowed to do, what we call 'adult stuff'.

Minors don't have fully developed brains plus puberty makes them often act irrationally because they are so easily influenced by their emotions.

I get what you mean, life can truly be terrible as a minor already but I still believe that giving them the choice to ctb is very irresponsible

 

[Andromeda77]

Kids ever changing. The imbalance in the brain that would lead a minor to seek suicide is not a natural, or normal state. Given the right resources that person could go on to live a very fulfilling life. That's what I think about whenever I see a teenager commit suicide. Like, if only they had gotten help, or someone had intervened and got them into therapy, or removed them from the damaging situation, or put them on medication….

I do think we have the right to die, just as much as we have the right to live. However, there has to be some gate keeping involved. A lot of the times, it's a cry for help.

 

[Daxter_87]

To be honest, I don't know why I still get into this kind of messes. I should have learnt the lesson when I tried to do antinatalism activism on YouTube. My mental health is already pretty damn poor as it is, no need to fuel it more by engaging in controversial arguments. I guess I can't help it.

Now, this does not mean that I've changed my mind regarding the topic. I believe in absolutely every word I said. However, since debating about it is highly unlikely to go anywhere, I'd rather just keep it to myself; after all, the outcome is going to be pretty much the same.

 

[Sweet Tart]

To me, the difference between a child and an adult having the right to die concerns the ability to make the decision independently and with consideration of other choices. Many kids are severely depressed due to having abusive and/or neglectful caretakers. They are stuck in hell. If they make it to adulthood, alternatives to the hell they lived in become possible (if not immediately available). It's easy to imagine kids wanting to die because their day to day life is objectively miserable due entirely to circumstances outside their control. Once they become adults and gain some control over their life circumstances, imo, they are in a position to make an informed choice about suicide.

 

[Per Ardua Ad Astra]

*TW : Tragic / sensitive situation in Australia - just FYI

It is old news / ongoing
Maybe already posted on SaSu
If not - example below - tip of the iceberg:

Ten-year-old Aboriginal girl kills herself in far north Western Australia | Indigenous Australians | The Guardian

Child the youngest of 19 Indigenous people to take their own lives in remote areas of the state since December

amp.theguardian.com

"Suicide was the second leading cause of death for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children aged 14 and under in 2014, according to figures released by the Australian Bureau of Statistics on Tuesday.

Indigenous children in that age group were 8.8 times more likely than non-Indigenous children to take their own life.

It (Suicide) was the leading cause of death for Indigenous people aged 15 to 35, where the Indigenous suicide rate was more than three times the non-Indigenous suicide rate. "

 

[Slasher]

like some said in this discussion, their brains are still developing and they might act off emotion or impulse. that being said there should probably be like a survey or some type of ''qualification'' for them to gain the right to CTB and even if it sounds dumb parental permission. a lot of teenagers that go trough periodicly bad times ( heart break, losing people, etc.) will probably choose to CTB before trying to endure the pain because they just haven't lived enough to realise that nothing is permanent and that their pain will probably be over in months/years. I don't think minors should have this right at all in the first place but I can see where you are coming from.

 

[Richdog]

I know many of you (if not most) won't agree with this. Heated comments lie ahead...

I will start by clearing up that I'm not a minor, just to avoid further misunderstandings and complications. Once that's clarified, we can truly begin.

I believe in the right to die for absolutely 100% of the population, meaning that there are no restrictions whatsoever (age/gender/health/etc.). That's right. Absolutely anyone should be able to simply request a service that provides them with a painless and reliable way to die. I believe that minors should be allowed to do this as well.

Suicide doesn't really need to be justified. We should simply be granted with the freedom to choose whether we want to stay alive (with all that it entails) or we want to leave existence; after all, nobody signed up for this, and some people might find it unacceptable right from the beginning. And who am I to say that they are wrong? Because they don't know better? Too inmature? Such arrogance to think that we know better than them what's best for them. They are the ones experiencing their lives, and if they feel that life is just too painful, then that is the truth for them, and no amount of gaslighting words is going to change that fact.

Not providing everyone with this right means that people are imprisoned, because they lack true freedom to choose. They can only choose from whatever tiny deck of contrived options that the system gives them. And the worst thing is that we are told that we are free to choose, but that is far from the truth. Yes, we (some of us anyway) can choose, but only from the options within life. We can't choose whether we want life or something else (nonexistence).

People simply assume that life must be lived first before wanting to CTB, but why? What exactly is the rational reason that we are obligated to try everything before trying to end it all? This is just an assumption, and it's not really based on anything but emotional beliefs that have been ingrained into people's heads.

This is some crazy shit, dude.

I can't fly, but I don't feel imprisoned.

 

[SexyIncél]

The Powers That Be would prefer children driven to suicide — than actually reducing their suffering

schools where they're graded like beef ◦ made to drink lead-poisoned water ◦ mine battery minerals for our phones ◦ property of parents

Normies are such amusingly sick fucks. They just project their sickness onto us

 

[OceanBlue]

The problem with minors in my opinion is they haven't lived lots of experiences, they might be acting based on emotions that are temporary

It was already cruel of us to bring them into existence (I hold everyone accountable in the pronatalist society), how can we subject them to even more cruelty by demanding them to live if they tell us they don't want to. The scary part is that most will never become aware enough to assess these risks realistically and will go through life's cruelties on autopilot, so the least we can do is take those who are aware enough to decide to opt-out seriously.

Suicide doesn't really need to be justified.

You are right, the universally preferred pro-living option will never stand up to scrutiny as it is irrational to subject yourself and others to so many risks. People don't want to admit it as that would mean they are putting children is danger when they bring them into existence.

We are subconsciously terrified and in denial of death, that's why parents expect to die before their children, it creates an illusion that the kids will never die when you won't be around to witness it. It's inherent like SI, so we instinctively feel relieved when others decide to live instead of die, but what does it mean for them? More of the unknown risks, traumas, violence, and possibly a surprise/gruesome death at the end. Even I tiptoe around people's feelings regarding this subject, but if anyone decides to speak in favour of the pro-living side then they should at least be honest about what it entails and take responsibility when any human ends up being destroyed by life. This especially concerns mental health professionals who make money by misleading and lying to people and obviously pronatalists.

You see all these atrocities in the world? The pronatalist society is responsible for all of them and since we're part of it, it's also our fault.

And my loved ones.. I know it's best for them to peacefully die today than risk what happens tomorrow and it's awful when I think about what they will have to endure, but most are determined to live as long as they can and that's the paradox of this reality. We need to completely overhaul our perception of life and death, what's natural is not necessarily good.

 

[SomethingsOff]

I do see people saying 'yeah but then any teen will CTB because of heartbreak or poor grades or impulse because underdeveloped brains' but I feel this is more targeted for minors who feel real depression and mental illness, for kids who have been bullied and harassed forever and it's completely affected how they are/it's something that they will never stop being harassed for (race, sexuality, gender identity, neurodivergency, or even just kids who realize that this world, late stage capitalism, etc is just… not for them. I'm tired of hearing people say children cannot have real problems, because I sure did, and honestly, I wish I hadn't made it this far. As I'm sure many others, under 18 or over, do as well. Just my commentary.

 

[Daxter_87]

It was already cruel of us to bring them into existence (I hold everyone accountable in the pronatalist society), how can we subject them to even more cruelty by demanding them to live if they tell us they don't want to. The scary part is that most will never become aware enough to assess these risks realistically and will go through life's cruelties on autopilot, so the least we can do is take those who are aware enough to decide to opt-out seriously.



You are right, the universally preferred pro-living option will never stand up to scrutiny as it is irrational to subject yourself and others to so many risks. People don't want to admit it as that would mean they are putting children is danger when they bring them into existence.

We are subconsciously terrified and in denial of death, that's why parents expect to die before their children, it creates an illusion that the kids will never die when you won't be around to witness it. It's inherent like SI, so we instinctively feel relieved when others decide to live instead of die, but what does it mean for them? More of the unknown risks, traumas, violence, and possibly a surprise/gruesome death at the end. Even I tiptoe around people's feelings regarding this subject, but if anyone decides to speak in favour of the pro-living side then they should at least be honest about what it entails and take responsibility when any human ends up being destroyed by life. This especially concerns mental health professionals who make money by misleading and lying to people and obviously pronatalists.

You see all these atrocities in the world? The pronatalist society is responsible for all of them and since we're part of it, it's also our fault.

And my loved ones.. I know it's best for them to peacefully die today than risk what happens tomorrow and it's awful when I think about what they will have to endure, but most are determined to live as long as they can and that's the paradox of this reality. We need to completely overhaul our perception of life and death, what's natural is not necessarily good.

Yeah, the thing with life is that it deludes us. It fools us by putting all these desires in us, and we fall for it like the ignorant animals that we are. I can even feel this delusion in myself, I believe that a certain degree of delusion is required just to get out of bed.

So, if you ever question the validity of life, it kind of creates a cognitive dissonance; you are going against your very nature. It feels unnatural, but, like you point out, what's natural is not necessarily good.

 

[Al.ce]

Yeah, no, completely agree with that. I mean, we're all going to die anyway so why is choosing death such a taboo? Not letting people make that choice forces them to turn to whatever method they can find and sometimes die in tremendous pain, if they don't survive and have to face complications.

"Life is worth living". Maybe, maybe not. We're just specs of dust in an infinite universe, excuse me if I think we don't matter all that much

 

[Nicksy]

I get your point, but they should not be able to do it anytime, maybe there could be a procedure, like "You request suicide today and if you still feel like this in x period of time, we'll allow you to suicide".

The problem with minors in my opinion is they haven't lived lots of experiences, they might be acting based on emotions that are temporary

I think this would be the way to go. Afaik in (some) countries with assisted suicide you have to attend a councilling session. For some people - including kids - just being able to speak to someone that isn't going to judge them would be incredibly beneficial.

My 9 yo niece confided to her mum not too long ago that she wanted to die. My sister spoke to the gp and school and my niece is now doing a lot better and seems relatively happy.

Not only would this be able to for instance stop a speight of "copycat" suicides, but I bet if part of the system was privatised there would be a huge uptick in the money abd reaources that go towards community mental health services which would do us all good.