Spirituality

[gonegirl1]

Does anyone feel like if they could practice spirituality more or make the effort to "enlighten" themselves they could cope with this life a little more?

 

[Pluto]

I've been trying for a long time but I'm still making the same mistakes. Identified with my story and distracted by thoughts.

How about you? Do you meditate or have any other practice?

 

[gonegirl1]

I tried to meditate in the past but always gave up easily. I feel like I could benefit from it but I don't have the mental strenght

I've been trying for a long time but I'm still making the same mistakes. Identified with my story and distracted by thoughts.

How about you? Do you meditate or have any other practice?

 

[Wilsonie_22]

Spirituality is the reason I haven't already ended it all. It is hard to find the genuine motivation to practice spirituality but it doesn't have to be hard, small steps for a long time do the job. Meditation is so incredibly crucial but I struggled to commit to actually doing it until I realized meditation doesn't have to be this serious activity that warrants its own time and place. You can meditate whilst walking, washing dishes etc. Increase your awareness of the outside world and the present moment.

We are all so stuck inside ourselves and constantly projecting into the past or future. Depression and suicidality are merely a kind of resisting of reality and turning inward, a hyper-fixation on the self. An instant relief from that is merely the focus on others or the world; it is to help others, to elevate them or to merely be present in the current moment because nothing else exists.

 

[steppenwolf]

No, I feel pretty enlightened and as well-equipped to cope with life as I'm ever going to be precisely because I don't believe in spirituality, only in common knowledge transmitted from generation to generation; for me the human capacity to discover and to learn and to know and to pass on knowledge beyond death is all the magic and spirituality I need to keep going. Apart from the teachings of individuals like Jesus Christ or Gautama Buddha or the Prophet Ezekiel etc., I've yet to encounter an organized religious group that wasn't a front for some dreary form of confidence trickery or human oppression or murderous bigotry or other. Think about it. There's a big giant invisible masculine head in the sky, who knows and sees everything and can do anything, who upholds that women are a lower form of life to men, and whom only super-rich people can hold personal commerce with, and anyone who doesn't believe in Him is damned and should be killed and thrown in a big burning bin. Can you think of a more monstrous inhuman lie with which to terrorize children and cripple their development, possibly fatally? Because I can't. If someone hadn't been standing over you with a rod from Day One you'd have told them to go to hell the first time they confronted you with such a horror fiction and expected you to swallow it as fact.

Having said that I won't deny anyone their faith; when there's nothing else for it but to hang on and hope for a miracle, that's all you can do, and in that context faith (i.e. wishful thinking) can be a great comfort, especially when reinforced by meditation (i.e. pointless repetitious ritual behaviours). But it's also delusional and divisive. Keeping it real, if you hold on to your faith for long enough with or without the help of meditation, a miracle will certainly come eventually purely by accident, but statistically a lot of disasters will certainly come first, also purely by accident. And either way you will certainly become increasingly delusional as you attempt to interpret every tiny detail of every mundane event in your life as evidence of your Invisible Almighty Patriarchal Overlord planning a miracle just for you, and every bullshitty arseholeness such as happens to everyone and her dog every day, as Him singling you out to test your spirituality. But that's not for me. Fuck that. Personally I fully expect my ship to have black sails when it comes in, and I accept that's how I'm made.

 

[gonegirl1]

Spirituality is the reason I haven't already ended it all. It is hard to find the genuine motivation to practice spirituality but it doesn't have to be hard, small steps for a long time do the job. Meditation is so incredibly crucial but I struggled to commit to actually doing it until I realized meditation doesn't have to be this serious activity that warrants its own time and place. You can meditate whilst walking, washing dishes etc. Increase your awareness of the outside world and the present moment.

We are all so stuck inside ourselves and constantly projecting into the past or future. Depression and suicidality are merely a kind of resisting of reality and turning inward, a hyper-fixation on the self. An instant relief from that is merely the focus on others or the world; it is to help others, to elevate them or to merely be present in the current moment because nothing else exists.

You are absolutely right; I wish it was easier for me to practice such a mentality

No, I feel pretty enlightened and as well-equipped to cope with life as I'm ever going to be precisely because I don't believe in spirituality, only in common knowledge transmitted from generation to generation; for me the human capacity to discover and to learn and to know and to pass on knowledge beyond death is all the magic and spirituality I need to keep going. Apart from the teachings of individuals like Jesus Christ or Gautama Buddha or the Prophet Ezekiel etc., I've yet to encounter an organized religious group that wasn't a front for some dreary form of confidence trickery or human oppression or murderous bigotry or other. Think about it. There's a big giant invisible masculine head in the sky, who knows and sees everything and can do anything, who upholds that women are a lower form of life to men, and whom only super-rich people can hold personal commerce with, and anyone who doesn't believe in Him is damned and should be killed and thrown in a big burning bin. Can you think of a more monstrous inhuman lie with which to terrorize children and cripple their development, possibly fatally? Because I can't. If someone hadn't been standing over you with a rod from Day One you'd have told them to go to hell the first time they confronted you with such a horror fiction and expected you to swallow it as fact.

Having said that I won't deny anyone their faith; when there's nothing else for it but to hang on and hope for a miracle, that's all you can do, and in that context faith (i.e. wishful thinking) can be a great comfort, especially when reinforced by meditation (i.e. pointless repetitious ritual behaviours). But it's also delusional and divisive. Keeping it real, if you hold on to your faith for long enough with or without the help of meditation, a miracle will certainly come eventually purely by accident, but statistically a lot of disasters will certainly come first, also purely by accident. And either way you will certainly become increasingly delusional as you attempt to interpret every tiny detail of every mundane event in your life as evidence of your Invisible Almighty Patriarchal Overlord planning a miracle just for you, and every bullshitty arseholeness such as happens to everyone and her dog every day, as Him singling you out to test your spirituality. But that's not for me. Fuck that. Personally I fully expect my ship to have black sails when it comes in, and I accept that's how I'm made.

I understand what you say and agree with some of it. But to me spirituality is something beyond religions, as they only exist to separate us from each other more. All of them represent basically the same thing, the need to believe in a superior guidance. It doesn't have to be a powerful all knowing god like most monotheistic religions. To me spirituality is some kind of powerful energy that spreads across the universe and is in constantly expansion. I don't know if it is good or bad, but I feel if I could connect with it I would be better with myself. Maybe I'll only connect with it when I die, my soul will be in its peace, who knows.

 

[Oneness]

I've had glimpses of some absolute truths while meditating and doing psychedelics. Truths like we are all one, time is an illusion, thoughts are the source of most if not all mental suffering, I'm "god" creating everything in the present moment. The problem is that these states of partial enlightenment don't last for me, they are very short-lived.

I've read books from Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira etc. I've listened to all lectures by Alan Watts. I resonate strongly with their teachings but still cannot quite grasp why I'm suffering so much daily. Enlightenment is very paradoxical, on the other hand enlightenment is just a concept and on the other hand it's the giving up of all concepts. Human language isn't designed to talk about the ultimate absolute reality. Silence is the ultimate teacher. I guess I should just forget about all concepts and spiritual teachings and keep meditating daily.

 

[gonegirl1]

I've had glimpses of some absolute truths while meditating and doing psychedelics. Truths like we are all one, time is an illusion, thoughts are the source of most if not all mental suffering, I'm "god" creating everything in the present moment. The problem is that these states of partial enlightenment don't last for me, they are very short-lived.

I've read books from Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira etc. I've listened to all lectures by Alan Watts. I resonate strongly with their teachings but still cannot quite grasp why I'm suffering so much daily. Enlightenment is very paradoxical, on the other hand enlightenment is just a concept and on the other hand it's the giving up of all concepts. Human language isn't designed to talk about the ultimate absolute reality. Silence is the ultimate teacher. I guess I should just forget about all concepts and spiritual teachings and keep meditating daily.

like i said in another post, I've read a book called The Awaken of Intelligence by Krishnamurti and it mentions the Truth with a capital T, and by reading it I believe it's not possible for us humans to achieve it. If I recall right it has to do with being truly present in the moment and in connection with everything, not just seeing it from the outside. Maybe it is possible to achieve it but only with constant practice and a life devoted to it. Idk

 

[Wilsonie_22]

No, I feel pretty enlightened and as well-equipped to cope with life as I'm ever going to be precisely because I don't believe in spirituality, only in common knowledge transmitted from generation to generation; for me the human capacity to discover and to learn and to know and to pass on knowledge beyond death is all the magic and spirituality I need to keep going. Apart from the teachings of individuals like Jesus Christ or Gautama Buddha or the Prophet Ezekiel etc., I've yet to encounter an organized religious group that wasn't a front for some dreary form of confidence trickery or human oppression or murderous bigotry or other. Think about it. There's a big giant invisible masculine head in the sky, who knows and sees everything and can do anything, who upholds that women are a lower form of life to men, and whom only super-rich people can hold personal commerce with, and anyone who doesn't believe in Him is damned and should be killed and thrown in a big burning bin. Can you think of a more monstrous inhuman lie with which to terrorize children and cripple their development, possibly fatally? Because I can't. If someone hadn't been standing over you with a rod from Day One you'd have told them to go to hell the first time they confronted you with such a horror fiction and expected you to swallow it as fact.

Having said that I won't deny anyone their faith; when there's nothing else for it but to hang on and hope for a miracle, that's all you can do, and in that context faith (i.e. wishful thinking) can be a great comfort, especially when reinforced by meditation (i.e. pointless repetitious ritual behaviours). But it's also delusional and divisive. Keeping it real, if you hold on to your faith for long enough with or without the help of meditation, a miracle will certainly come eventually purely by accident, but statistically a lot of disasters will certainly come first, also purely by accident. And either way you will certainly become increasingly delusional as you attempt to interpret every tiny detail of every mundane event in your life as evidence of your Invisible Almighty Patriarchal Overlord planning a miracle just for you, and every bullshitty arseholeness such as happens to everyone and her dog every day, as Him singling you out to test your spirituality. But that's not for me. Fuck that. Personally I fully expect my ship to have black sails when it comes in, and I accept that's how I'm made.

What does this obvious defensive knee-jerk rant about Abrahamic religion have to do with spirituality? It's evident you have not delved deeply into the very subject you're criticizing. It seems like a surface-level, opinionated criticism without much direct experience. There's no understanding, really no different than the followers of the very religions you just berated, who fail to explore beyond the surface of their faith.

To truly experience the underlying mysticism, you need to go far beyond the coat of paint which is religion, with its many dogmas and constructions. Are they made up? Of course. What isn't? Have they been used as an excuse to instigate wars and oppress? Of course. What hasn't? You dismiss something you don't even understand for reasons that are not even there. For example, labeling meditation as "useless" contradicts scientific research, which shows its benefits. Unsurprising, as you even failed to describe what meditation even is let alone accurately portray its benefits.

I would usually not reply to such a rant, but the way such an opinionated and obviously defensive display is disguised as factual and/or logical/reasonable was just too juicy to ignore. So I apologize in advance :P

Also, I must say that I do agree with some of your points, especially in relation to Abrahamic faiths, but the overall picture is just not very nuanced.

 

[Pluto]

I've read books from Eckhart Tolle, Rupert Spira etc. I've listened to all lectures by Alan Watts. I resonate strongly with their teachings but still cannot quite grasp why I'm suffering so much daily.

This has been the problem for me, too. In a very practical sense, if the suffering is the same as it always was, it all amounts to nothing. There's still the sense of being a person trying to fix its problems, with spirituality just another system utilised to try and achieve that. That's not actually true, of course, but there needs to be some sort of breakthrough in which the person is seen as a mere mental construct.

The only thing I can add is that I'm sure Angelo Dilullo would point out the importance of emotion work on the path. It is a point that a lot of traditions overlook.

like i said in another post, I've read a book called The Awaken of Intelligence by Krishnamurti and it mentions the Truth with a capital T, and by reading it I believe it's not possible for us humans to achieve it. If I recall right it has to do with being truly present in the moment and in connection with everything, not just seeing it from the outside. Maybe it is possible to achieve it but only with constant practice and a life devoted to it. Idk

From memory, it was Krishnamurti himself who once remarked that a random person sitting next to him on an airplane would be the best person to guide into awakening. I think the reason is that our mental human identity learns about spirituality and tries to grasp it, which sets up failure. The human self is not going to achieve a state called enlightenment, as it is itself the illusion. This dilemma is the source of all the pitfalls on the path.

The mind learns about this topic, which needs to happen, but by superimposing its cognitive framework, it immediately corrupts everything. It creates a sense of a thing (a state of mind, a concept called enlightenment) that it needs to achieve. It creates a sense of a person on a timeline who will one day find something of value. It uses thought to try and overcome thought. It projects a sense of a self trying to overcome a sense of self.

Ramana Maharshi used the analogy of a policeman who never catches the thief, because the policeman secretly is the thief. This is what is happening. So that leaves two slightly paradoxical answers to dance back and forth between:

1) Impractical but true
You are already present. (For proof, try to be 5 minutes into the future or 5 years ago.) You are already enlightened and could never be separate from anything. The only problem is an intense habit of believing thoughts that say otherwise. Note that you are the same 'you' as you were in early childhood, when none of your ideas about yourself were even remotely similar. You're even the same 'you' in dream states, or before this lifetime began, or after death, or even in other lifetimes. And even the same one as me. That contentless consciousness is the only thing of eternal value, yet it is not a thing and there's no one for it to give value to. Hard to talk about and impossible for the mind to grasp. And yet, you are already that; it's the elephant in the room.

2) Practical but untrue
It takes time, effort and practice to remove layers of false identity. Unless the so-called uncompromising message (the whole "there is no individual self, you are already the Self") triggers a radical shift, we must follow a gradual process of working through emotional fixations, dealing with traumas, pushing for deeper states of meditation, time with teachers to expose false beliefs which hold you back, etc. The big shift (itself a part of a larger process) can happen at any time but the first step is being genuinely open to it and not turning it into something complicated or difficult.

 

[gonegirl1]

This has been the problem for me, too. In a very practical sense, if the suffering is the same as it always was, it all amounts to nothing. There's still the sense of being a person trying to fix its problems, with spirituality just another system utilised to try and achieve that. That's not actually true, of course, but there needs to be some sort of breakthrough in which the person is seen as a mere mental construct.

The only thing I can add is that I'm sure Angelo Dilullo would point out the importance of emotion work on the path. It is a point that a lot of traditions overlook.


From memory, it was Krishnamurti himself who once remarked that a random person sitting next to him on an airplane would be the best person to guide into awakening. I think the reason is that our mental human identity learns about spirituality and tries to grasp it, which sets up failure. The human self is not going to achieve a state called enlightenment, as it is itself the illusion. This dilemma is the source of all the pitfalls on the path.

The mind learns about this topic, which needs to happen, but by superimposing its cognitive framework, it immediately corrupts everything. It creates a sense of a thing (a state of mind, a concept called enlightenment) that it needs to achieve. It creates a sense of a person on a timeline who will one day find something of value. It uses thought to try and overcome thought. It projects a sense of a self trying to overcome a sense of self.

Ramana Maharshi used the analogy of a policeman who never catches the thief, because the policeman secretly is the thief. This is what is happening. So that leaves two slightly paradoxical answers to dance back and forth between:

1) Impractical but true
You are already present. (For proof, try to be 5 minutes into the future or 5 years ago.) You are already enlightened and could never be separate from anything. The only problem is an intense habit of believing thoughts that say otherwise. Note that you are the same 'you' as you were in early childhood, when none of your ideas about yourself were even remotely similar. You're even the same 'you' in dream states, or before this lifetime began, or after death, or even in other lifetimes. And even the same one as me. That contentless consciousness is the only thing of eternal value, yet it is not a thing and there's no one for it to give value to. Hard to talk about and impossible for the mind to grasp. And yet, you are already that; it's the elephant in the room.

2) Practical but untrue
It takes time, effort and practice to remove layers of false identity. Unless the so-called uncompromising message (the whole "there is no individual self, you are already the Self") triggers a radical shift, we must follow a gradual process of working through emotional fixations, dealing with traumas, pushing for deeper states of meditation, time with teachers to expose false beliefs which hold you back, etc. The big shift (itself a part of a larger process) can happen at any time but the first step is being genuinely open to it and not turning it into something complicated or difficult.

thank you for this.

 

[Shiva_Story]

i'm convinced that practical spirituality in a group of like minded people would definitely help to keep one engaged in the narrative of this spacetime reality.

makes me wonder how the original Buddha made it out of Maya/Samsara the world of Illusion

 

[DarkRange55]

Spiritually is rather nebulous.

Religious gatherings act as a facet of a community in my opinion. I think a sense of community is always relevant. Religion maybe not.

 

[scared:bug]

This has been the problem for me, too. In a very practical sense, if the suffering is the same as it always was, it all amounts to nothing. There's still the sense of being a person trying to fix its problems, with spirituality just another system utilised to try and achieve that. That's not actually true, of course, but there needs to be some sort of breakthrough in which the person is seen as a mere mental construct.

The only thing I can add is that I'm sure Angelo Dilullo would point out the importance of emotion work on the path. It is a point that a lot of traditions overlook.

I love Angelo Dilullo.

 

[DarkRange55]

A friend of mine said the purpose of religion is to provide a path for spirituality. Idk