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Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
I agree that in the modern world, and modern society, consciousness plays no importance in people's daily thoughts.
Same with modern science, although some scientists in the past, like David Bohm, and
Michael Talbot, did try and incorporate consciousness into their scientific theories.

I'm aware that talk of consciousness etc leads to a lot of eyerolls. It would only be of importance to people's lives if they went through a spiritual awakening, which almost noone does.


By waking up! Seek and thee shall find! (But be careful, if you take the red pill you might be like Neo in the Matrix, you might want to go back! 😉).


Yeah, Ken Kesey, Tim Leary, and them guys have written about their adventures in consciousness/altered stares of consciousness.
But one awakened guy, the infamous Osho, warned against it as a means to wake up.
Btw, what did you find at the end of the rabbit hole?
 
Ashu

Ashu

novelist, sanskritist, Canadian living in India
Nov 13, 2021
637
Honestly didn't understand what is functioning as self?
How do you operate without ego ? Ego is self. How do you operate without self ?
Nobody does. It's just a lot of fucking talk, and these gurus and swamis are just a lot of fucking mouths.
 
H

Hotsackage

Elementalist
Mar 11, 2019
869
Its all many the worlds collapsing the infinite wave functions. Let's be nice on christmas
 
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Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

..............
Dec 12, 2023
858
Btw, what did you find at the end of the rabbit hole?
Well, Wonderland and Alice obviously...
Screenshot 20231225 014607

Nah, didn't get to the end, just fell in and scrambled out again! 😉

Nobody does. It's just a lot of fucking talk, and these gurus and swamis are just a lot of fucking mouths.
I agree with you about the gurus and swamis, bar a couple.
 
D

doneforlife

Specialist
Jul 18, 2023
360
Nobody does. It's just a lot of fucking talk, and these gurus and swamis are just a lot of fucking mouths.
True.
Maybe you are right, or maybe they are more "spiritually advanced".

There are all kinds of stories in regards to stuff like this.

Oh, I forgot... When he was young, he was meditating, hidden in a cave, not eating and ants and other bugs were biting his skin. A person who found him he had to feed him with a tube or something, because Ramana just didn't care.


In a spiritual context, a person has to build a virtuous sense of self, and then drop it (at the very end) Or just purify the mind basically.

The only way to have a glimpse that "there is something more" are definitely psychedelics. But they are not 100% Safe. Some people have bad trips and sometimes even PTSD.

Otherwise just belief and/or practice...
I will have to look up this individual. But honestly, reading this stuff seems scary.
 
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MatrixPrisoner

MatrixPrisoner

Enlightened
Jul 8, 2023
1,257
According to the WHO 700.000 people commit suicide every year. Besides all the obscure data that we don't know from countries where governments don't want these statistics to be known like North Korea etc...

Some spiritual perspectives here which are rarely talked here about suicide:
When I learned this statistic, I was floored. Even factoring in a generous margin of error, that is only 0.0000875% of the world population. Goes to show just difficult is to go through with it. Because you know there are billions for sure that think about it all the time.
 
Abandoned Character

Abandoned Character

(he./him)
Mar 24, 2023
233
I thoroughly enjoy this thread. My own life is greatly enhanced by my efforts to see suffering as grasping and aversion, borrowing from buddhism. I want to reiterate what is said already: there is something valuable in recognizing the illusory nature of what we identify ourselves to be. Holding a beginners mind and, for the sake of experimentation, abandoning previously held assumptions of the world is an interesting exercise in exploring the illusion of self!
 
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Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
True.

I will have to look up this individual. But honestly, reading this stuff seems scary.
He was a virtuous person though, so no reason to be scared lol.

The cooks/people would always try to give put more food in his plate and he would always refuse, even feel offended at the fact...

Also he would make sure the animals (who would always hang around in the ashram) would be fed first.

A lot of people felt attracted to visit him or be there because of his kind aura/vibes, so no reason to be scared.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,645
Holding a beginners mind and, for the sake of experimentation, abandoning previously held assumptions of the world is an interesting exercise in exploring the illusion of self!
I'm glad you find it worthwhile also. Since I've been encouraged :devil: I might give my opinion on a couple of other issues.

Are there bad gurus? Yes, absolutely.

Some of the worst examples of narcissistic personalities, such as Jim Jones, portray themselves as spiritual leaders to attract flocks of lost and vulnerable people to their doom. Worse, because 'spiritual awakening' generally involves the progressive removal of various layers of ego-identity (for example, using the Buddhist Fetter model), it is possible for an individual to have a genuine initial awakening yet an utterly dastardly ego quick to use its limited insights to prey on seekers. This can take the form of exorbitant fees or various physical, sexual or emotional abuses of devotees.

Next up, are there good gurus? In my view, yes, absolutely.

If you want nothing less than the gold standard, that brings us back to Ramana Maharshi. Unlike most, he had no scandals. He never touched money, never had any relationships and his presence was so powerful that many people had life-changing experiences just by being around him in silent sitting. His words carry an immense potency to this day and unlike, say, Jesus, his teachings have been recorded without getting turned into 'churches' dominated by narcissistic and power-hungry men.

Next question, is this all a load of nonsense?

Let's take a look. Obviously, the sense of being an individual person - the 'first person character' perspective - is incredibly strong for most people, most of the time. It escalates throughout childhood and becomes even more extreme when things go wrong in life. There's a 'me' who is at the centre of tragedy and injustice. The mind becomes an unbearable storm of furiously re-telling the story of me and desperately seeking a solution to its list of problems. So there's a lot at stake with this question.

The work of Eckhart Tolle is a gateway for many people, since he is not as directly focused on awakening as introducing people to basic teachings that can bring immense peace without necessarily entailing a radical shift in identity. For example, inhabiting the body by withdrawing attention from the mind. Or noting that all thoughts pertain to past and future, both of which are themselves thoughts; hence 'your entire life consists only of your sensory experience of this moment'. Or 'watch to see what your next thought is going to be'. This can be life-changing compared to the inner poison of mind dominance. Yet, it's only the beginning.

And what about all the nondual business? The idea that there is only a single consciousness and all separation is illusory?

If this message is too radical or too counterintuitive, it will not be considered as a possibility and the rest of your life will be spent being tormented by your own mind, even if you experience all the worldly success you could ask for. And yet, if the message is believed, this is just as harmful. Now we have an intellectual model of a unitary consciousness and a willingness to indulge in a bit of meditation or to parrot mantras like 'I am not the body'. Unless a radical shift in identity has occurred - not to mention further integration and processing - this is not of value. This is not about adopting a new belief structure or developing a spiritual ego.

And yet, the intellect does have a role in initiating an authentic spiritual search. The trick is that it must be abandoned as soon as you are 'sold' that this is the highest purpose in life. But until then, we can marvel at the historical figures who all arrived at the same conclusion that we are all one. Each religion has had mystical leaders who present this same message using verbiage accessible to its members, such as Bernadette Roberts of the Catholic tradition. It is a common theme of spiritually transformative experiences, after-death communications or near-death experiences that have been reported by millions, the latter of which are commonly verified by medical professionals.

Balancing the ferocious power of the ego identity against the diverse background of trustworthy people claiming that its an illusion ends up a bit like flat-Earth theory. The logic says, I have not personally travelled on a spaceplane and I do not trust the people who have, therefore I stick with my practical experience that the Earth is flat and live within the cult around that. The result will be a lifetime of mental gymnastics to maintain a closed-off worldview. If this works, then go for it. Otherwise, the challenge is to give up everything you think you know, including all beliefs, spiritual ideas, and seek your own direct insights of the true nature of reality.

How to stop identification with the ego?
The ultimate question. Firstly, it needs to be understood as a subtractive process; i.e., one of unlearning rather than gathering knowledge. One of embracing the unknown rather than evading it. Being willing to face the darkest existential fear, or to feel the worst human emotions of shame, trusting that there's something on the other side.

Books written by people in an advanced state - someone like Eckhart Tolle being very accessible, or the teachings of Ramana Maharshi for more advanced seekers - carry little information but transmit power to one who is open and receptive. This has value unless it turns into an intellectual exercise.

The primary practical technique is Self-inquiry, which Ramana is most famous for. This is a very special activity because it satisfies the ego-self that feels that something is wrong and it wants to take action, yet directs that action towards pure consciousness. Normally the essence of the Self is ignored constantly as noise of the mind and passing phenomena of the world captures our attention at all times like a non-stop addiction. So, understood and practiced, the question 'Who am I?' is the most direct key to discovering your true nature. For further information, I can recommend the work of Angelo Dilullo.

Also, meditation is a valuable practice, and retreats which involve days of silent sitting can be immensely powerful - sometimes dangerously so, unless guidance is available. Speaking of which, time with a teacher will help to expose whatever hidden gremlins we are trying to bypass or being held back by. If all of these steps are followed, you will likely find yourself amongst the large numbers of people who are turning the once esoteric concept of awakening into a mainstream phenomenon - which the world definitely could do with.
 
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D

doneforlife

Specialist
Jul 18, 2023
360
I'm glad you find it worthwhile also. Since I've been encouraged :devil: I might give my opinion on a couple of other issues.

Are there bad gurus? Yes, absolutely.

Some of the worst examples of narcissistic personalities, such as Jim Jones, portray themselves as spiritual leaders to attract flocks of lost and vulnerable people to their doom. Worse, because 'spiritual awakening' generally involves the progressive removal of various layers of ego-identity (for example, using the Buddhist Fetter model), it is possible for an individual to have a genuine initial awakening yet an utterly dastardly ego quick to use its limited insights to prey on seekers. This can take the form of exorbitant fees or various physical, sexual or emotional abuses of devotees.

Next up, are there good gurus? In my view, yes, absolutely.

If you want nothing less than the gold standard, that brings us back to Ramana Maharshi. Unlike most, he had no scandals. He never touched money, never had any relationships and his presence was so powerful that many people had life-changing experiences just by being around him in silent sitting. His words carry an immense potency to this day and unlike, say, Jesus, his teachings have been recorded without getting turned into 'churches' dominated by narcissistic and power-hungry men.

Next question, is this all a load of nonsense?

Let's take a look. Obviously, the sense of being an individual person - the 'first person character' perspective - is incredibly strong for most people, most of the time. It escalates throughout childhood and becomes even more extreme when things go wrong in life. There's a 'me' who is at the centre of tragedy and injustice. The mind becomes an unbearable storm of furiously re-telling the story of me and desperately seeking a solution to its list of problems. So there's a lot at stake with this question.

The work of Eckhart Tolle is a gateway for many people, since he is not as directly focused on awakening as introducing people to basic teachings that can bring immense peace without necessarily entailing a radical shift in identity. For example, inhabiting the body by withdrawing attention from the mind. Or noting that all thoughts pertain to past and future, both of which are themselves thoughts; hence 'your entire life consists only of your sensory experience of this moment'. Or 'watch to see what your next thought is going to be'. This can be life-changing compared to the inner poison of mind dominance. Yet, it's only the beginning.

And what about all the nondual business? The idea that there is only a single consciousness and all separation is illusory?

If this message is too radical or too counterintuitive, it will not be considered as a possibility and the rest of your life will be spent being tormented by your own mind, even if you experience all the worldly success you could ask for. And yet, if the message is believed, this is just as harmful. Now we have an intellectual model of a unitary consciousness and a willingness to indulge in a bit of meditation or to parrot mantras like 'I am not the body'. Unless a radical shift in identity has occurred - not to mention further integration and processing - this is not of value. This is not about adopting a new belief structure or developing a spiritual ego.

And yet, the intellect does have a role in initiating an authentic spiritual search. The trick is that it must be abandoned as soon as you are 'sold' that this is the highest purpose in life. But until then, we can marvel at the historical figures who all arrived at the same conclusion that we are all one. Each religion has had mystical leaders who present this same message using verbiage accessible to its members, such as Bernadette Roberts of the Catholic tradition. It is a common theme of spiritually transformative experiences, after-death communications or near-death experiences that have been reported by millions, the latter of which are commonly verified by medical professionals.

Balancing the ferocious power of the ego identity against the diverse background of trustworthy people claiming that its an illusion ends up a bit like flat-Earth theory. The logic says, I have not personally travelled on a spaceplane and I do not trust the people who have, therefore I stick with my practical experience that the Earth is flat and live within the cult around that. The result will be a lifetime of mental gymnastics to maintain a closed-off worldview. If this works, then go for it. Otherwise, the challenge is to give up everything you think you know, including all beliefs, spiritual ideas, and seek your own direct insights of the true nature of reality.


The ultimate question. Firstly, it needs to be understood as a subtractive process; i.e., one of unlearning rather than gathering knowledge. One of embracing the unknown rather than evading it. Being willing to face the darkest existential fear, or to feel the worst human emotions of shame, trusting that there's something on the other side.

Books written by people in an advanced state - someone like Eckhart Tolle being very accessible, or the teachings of Ramana Maharshi for more advanced seekers - carry little information but transmit power to one who is open and receptive. This has value unless it turns into an intellectual exercise.

The primary practical technique is Self-inquiry, which Ramana is most famous for. This is a very special activity because it satisfies the ego-self that feels that something is wrong and it wants to take action, yet directs that action towards pure consciousness. Normally the essence of the Self is ignored constantly as noise of the mind and passing phenomena of the world captures our attention at all times like a non-stop addiction. So, understood and practiced, the question 'Who am I?' is the most direct key to discovering your true nature. For further information, I can recommend the work of Angelo Dilullo.

Also, meditation is a valuable practice, and retreats which involve days of silent sitting can be immensely powerful - sometimes dangerously so, unless guidance is available. Speaking of which, time with a teacher will help to expose whatever hidden gremlins we are trying to bypass or being held back by. If all of these steps are followed, you will likely find yourself amongst the large numbers of people who are turning the once esoteric concept of awakening into a mainstream phenomenon - which the world definitely could do with.
How do you view this process? Is it destructive or constructive ? If I let go of the ego , whatever remains, who is it ? And what is its impact physically?
 
Groundhog_Day

Groundhog_Day

Member
Dec 5, 2023
75
Next question, is this all a load of nonsense?

Let's take a look. Obviously, the sense of being an individual person - the 'first person character' perspective - is incredibly strong for most people, most of the time. It escalates throughout childhood and becomes even more extreme when things go wrong in life. There's a 'me' who is at the centre of tragedy and injustice. The mind becomes an unbearable storm of furiously re-telling the story of me and desperately seeking a solution to its list of problems. So there's a lot at stake with this question.

The work of Eckhart Tolle is a gateway for many people, since he is not as directly focused on awakening as introducing people to basic teachings that can bring immense peace without necessarily entailing a radical shift in identity. For example, inhabiting the body by withdrawing attention from the mind. Or noting that all thoughts pertain to past and future, both of which are themselves thoughts; hence 'your entire life consists only of your sensory experience of this moment'. Or 'watch to see what your next thought is going to be'. This can be life-changing compared to the inner poison of mind dominance. Yet, it's only the beginning.

And what about all the nondual business? The idea that there is only a single consciousness and all separation is

The primary practical technique is Self-inquiry, which Ramana is most famous for. This is a very special activity because it satisfies the ego-self that feels that something is wrong and it wants to take action, yet directs that action towards pure consciousness. Normally the essence of the Self is ignored constantly as noise of the mind and passing phenomena of the world captures our attention at all times like a non-stop addiction. So, understood and practiced, the question 'Who am I?' is the most direct key to discovering your true nature. For further information, I can recommend the work of Angelo Dilullo.

Also, meditation is a valuable practice, and retreats which involve days of silent sitting can be immensely powerful - sometimes dangerously so, unless guidance is available. Speaking of which, time with a teacher will help to expose whatever hidden gremlins we are trying to bypass or being held back by. If all of these steps are followed, you will likely find yourself amongst the large numbers of people who are turning the once esoteric concept of awakening into a mainstream phenomenon - which the world definitely could do with.
You have great knowledge of this topic. My brother has gotten into this via Sam Harris' waking up app. He said the biggest help was realising the self is an illusion, and the only thing that is real is awareness in the present moment.

Have you found this to be very helpful in your life? I will be honest, I have not felt any benefit. I like the idea of it all, but my negative inner monologue is always there, and I get swept away by it constantly.

Do you think it's a case of putting more effort into doing daily self inquiry work, and meditations? It's just hard to find motivation when you don't really believe in it, and have been so lost in negative self talk for your whole life.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,645
How do you view this process? Is it destructive or constructive ? If I let go of the ego , whatever remains, who is it ? And what is its impact physically?
The challenge is that we are talking about something beyond the mind, so anything that we say about it is automatically wrong. Sometimes it is pointed to in analogy. For example, we know that space is a thing, yet it has no particular qualities so in a way it is no-thing. The nature of the Self is infinite, so anything that is definable or comprehensible is merely an infinitesimal part of it.

There's quite a bit of variation in terms of the physical impacts, but generally there is a 'honeymoon' period in which it seems that the ego is gone and life is incredibly peaceful, otherwise functioning as normal. Some have referred to this as a second childhood, as the sense of wonderment lost long ago is back. Over time, the ego tends to come back and further practices are necessary to continue the dissolution process.

As for what remains, the Buddha was often silent on questions like these; Eckhart once commented that the Buddha's silence means that you must find out the answer for yourself.

You have great knowledge of this topic. My brother has gotten into this via Sam Harris' waking up app. He said the biggest help was realising the self is an illusion, and the only thing that is real is awareness in the present moment.

Have you found this to be very helpful in your life? I will be honest, I have not felt any benefit. I like the idea of it all, but my negative inner monologue is always there, and I get swept away by it constantly.

Do you think it's a case of putting more effort into doing daily self inquiry work, and meditations? It's just hard to find motivation when you don't really believe in it, and have been so lost in negative self talk for your whole life.
I've heard of Sam Harris. It's remarkable to live in a time when something as profound as awakening is available with a mere internet download. Once upon a time people would have had to travel for months on horseback to access this sort of content.

I've been in this game to some degree for 25 years. Unfortunately, I have a lot more knowledge than wisdom (the difference being direct insight). With hindsight, the reason for my lack of success probably relates to an extremely poor emotional state and a total lack of basics like career, relationships, etc. There has been a lot to unravel and in some ways, I still haven't even begun. But these sorts of conversations are very helpful.

I relate strongly to your last paragraph. What I can say is that Angelo Dilullo has commented that attending an intensive meditation retreat and one-on-one time with a teacher are two activities that can break the stalemate. Usually there will be some sort of fixation that is holding us back - some emotion we are trying to avoid feeling or some identity we are afraid to lose. It is a matter of exposing it in order for the process to continue unfolding.
 
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Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
I'm glad you find it worthwhile also. Since I've been encouraged :devil: I might give my opinion on a couple of other issues.

Are there bad gurus? Yes, absolutely.

Some of the worst examples of narcissistic personalities, such as Jim Jones, portray themselves as spiritual leaders to attract flocks of lost and vulnerable people to their doom. Worse, because 'spiritual awakening' generally involves the progressive removal of various layers of ego-identity (for example, using the Buddhist Fetter model), it is possible for an individual to have a genuine initial awakening yet an utterly dastardly ego quick to use its limited insights to prey on seekers. This can take the form of exorbitant fees or various physical, sexual or emotional abuses of devotees.

Next up, are there good gurus? In my view, yes, absolutely.

If you want nothing less than the gold standard, that brings us back to Ramana Maharshi. Unlike most, he had no scandals. He never touched money, never had any relationships and his presence was so powerful that many people had life-changing experiences just by being around him in silent sitting. His words carry an immense potency to this day and unlike, say, Jesus, his teachings have been recorded without getting turned into 'churches' dominated by narcissistic and power-hungry men.

Next question, is this all a load of nonsense?

Let's take a look. Obviously, the sense of being an individual person - the 'first person character' perspective - is incredibly strong for most people, most of the time. It escalates throughout childhood and becomes even more extreme when things go wrong in life. There's a 'me' who is at the centre of tragedy and injustice. The mind becomes an unbearable storm of furiously re-telling the story of me and desperately seeking a solution to its list of problems. So there's a lot at stake with this question.

The work of Eckhart Tolle is a gateway for many people, since he is not as directly focused on awakening as introducing people to basic teachings that can bring immense peace without necessarily entailing a radical shift in identity. For example, inhabiting the body by withdrawing attention from the mind. Or noting that all thoughts pertain to past and future, both of which are themselves thoughts; hence 'your entire life consists only of your sensory experience of this moment'. Or 'watch to see what your next thought is going to be'. This can be life-changing compared to the inner poison of mind dominance. Yet, it's only the beginning.

And what about all the nondual business? The idea that there is only a single consciousness and all separation is illusory?

If this message is too radical or too counterintuitive, it will not be considered as a possibility and the rest of your life will be spent being tormented by your own mind, even if you experience all the worldly success you could ask for. And yet, if the message is believed, this is just as harmful. Now we have an intellectual model of a unitary consciousness and a willingness to indulge in a bit of meditation or to parrot mantras like 'I am not the body'. Unless a radical shift in identity has occurred - not to mention further integration and processing - this is not of value. This is not about adopting a new belief structure or developing a spiritual ego.

And yet, the intellect does have a role in initiating an authentic spiritual search. The trick is that it must be abandoned as soon as you are 'sold' that this is the highest purpose in life. But until then, we can marvel at the historical figures who all arrived at the same conclusion that we are all one. Each religion has had mystical leaders who present this same message using verbiage accessible to its members, such as Bernadette Roberts of the Catholic tradition. It is a common theme of spiritually transformative experiences, after-death communications or near-death experiences that have been reported by millions, the latter of which are commonly verified by medical professionals.

Balancing the ferocious power of the ego identity against the diverse background of trustworthy people claiming that its an illusion ends up a bit like flat-Earth theory. The logic says, I have not personally travelled on a spaceplane and I do not trust the people who have, therefore I stick with my practical experience that the Earth is flat and live within the cult around that. The result will be a lifetime of mental gymnastics to maintain a closed-off worldview. If this works, then go for it. Otherwise, the challenge is to give up everything you think you know, including all beliefs, spiritual ideas, and seek your own direct insights of the true nature of reality.


The ultimate question. Firstly, it needs to be understood as a subtractive process; i.e., one of unlearning rather than gathering knowledge. One of embracing the unknown rather than evading it. Being willing to face the darkest existential fear, or to feel the worst human emotions of shame, trusting that there's something on the other side.

Books written by people in an advanced state - someone like Eckhart Tolle being very accessible, or the teachings of Ramana Maharshi for more advanced seekers - carry little information but transmit power to one who is open and receptive. This has value unless it turns into an intellectual exercise.

The primary practical technique is Self-inquiry, which Ramana is most famous for. This is a very special activity because it satisfies the ego-self that feels that something is wrong and it wants to take action, yet directs that action towards pure consciousness. Normally the essence of the Self is ignored constantly as noise of the mind and passing phenomena of the world captures our attention at all times like a non-stop addiction. So, understood and practiced, the question 'Who am I?' is the most direct key to discovering your true nature. For further information, I can recommend the work of Angelo Dilullo.

Also, meditation is a valuable practice, and retreats which involve days of silent sitting can be immensely powerful - sometimes dangerously so, unless guidance is available. Speaking of which, time with a teacher will help to expose whatever hidden gremlins we are trying to bypass or being held back by. If all of these steps are followed, you will likely find yourself amongst the large numbers of people who are turning the once esoteric concept of awakening into a mainstream phenomenon - which the world definitely could do with.
But this is only worthwhile if it this progress is cumulative and continues in further lives.

Otherwise it's a lot of work for nothing, right?

I found that the best way to make people "believe" without going through extreme suffering like Eckhart Tolle's case is curiosity, and psych drugs can help with that.

There is a lot of depth to consciousness/the world/the Self that is unveiled for the temporary experience of that duration.

No wonder a lot of people turn 180° degrees and go all new age nonsense in their lives. These substances are very powerful and are very eye opening.

It can be felt like going back home for awhile, to a familiar "place", all ambiguity of visuals and entities aside (which can be dismissed by moderate skeptics), but feelings are harder to dismiss.

Specially feelings of temporarily losing one's identity for example.

That and dieing, which is irreversible. NDE's provide that relief from suffering but if Buddhists are correct, the most usefulness of our time here is merging back to our Buddha nature.
 
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Groundhog_Day

Groundhog_Day

Member
Dec 5, 2023
75
I've heard of Sam Harris. It's remarkable to live in a time when something as profound as awakening is available with a mere internet download. Once upon a time people would have had to travel for months on horseback to access this sort of content.

I've been in this game to some degree for 25 years. Unfortunately, I have a lot more knowledge than wisdom (the difference being direct insight). With hindsight, the reason for my lack of success probably relates to an extremely poor emotional state and a total lack of basics like career, relationships, etc. There has been a lot to unravel and in some ways, I still haven't even begun. But these sorts of conversations are very helpful.

I relate strongly to your last paragraph. What I can say is that Angelo Dilullo has commented that attending an intensive meditation retreat and one-on-one time with a teacher are two activities that can break the stalemate. Usually there will be some sort of fixation that is holding us back - some emotion we are trying to avoid feeling or some identity we are afraid to lose. It is a matter of exposing it in order for the process to continue unfolding.
Thanks for giving such an in-depth reply.

My brother has found Sam Harris' waking up app to be life changing.

Like you, I struggle to get past my emotional state (constant anxious and negative self talk from avpd), and my life situation - 41, neet, never been in relationship, caring for my mum whose health is declining. This is probably ego and resistance, but I kind of feel like most enlightened people often have all these things, like a career & relationship etc. My brother has a wife, kids, house and job he enjoys. It kinda feels like a multi millionaire telling you money isn't important, whilst still keeping and enjoying their wealth.

I think you are right about there being some identity we are afraid to lose. I'm so caught up in my identity of being an ugly, useless person. Letting go of that story, also means letting go of the illusion of say a woman being kind and loving towards me, as being the answer to my problems.
 
D

doneforlife

Specialist
Jul 18, 2023
360
But this is only worthwhile if it this progress is cumulative and continues in further lives.

Otherwise it's a lot of work for nothing, right?

I found that the best way to make people "believe" without going through extreme suffering like Eckhart Tolle's case is curiosity, and psych drugs can help with that.

There is a lot of depth to consciousness/the world/the Self that is unveiled for the temporary experience of that duration.

No wonder a lot of people turn 180° degrees and go all new age nonsense in their lives. These substances are very powerful and are very eye opening.

It can be felt like going back home for awhile, to a familiar "place", all ambiguity of visuals and entities aside (which can be dismissed by moderate skeptics), but feelings are harder to dismiss.

Specially feelings of temporarily losing one's identity for example.

That and dieing, which is irreversible. NDE's provide that relief from suffering but if Buddhists are correct, the most usefulness of our time here is merging back to our Buddha nature.
Honestly, I don't identify with ego or self. I see the body as a huge liability dumped on me. Now who is this "me" ? May be the soul, or may be some entity separate from the body. I see body as a house forcibly given to me without asking for it and now I have to pay the EMI, EMI here means the time for which I have to carry this body. Death is when I am EMI free..lol. But then I am severely attached to this body because anything happens to this body , I am the direct recipient of it. The pain , the happiness, the experiences. So the conflict lies in whether to severely protect it as it is the only way to interface with this world or to let go off it as the liability will be gone.
 
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Pluto

Pluto

Meowing to go out
Dec 27, 2020
3,645
But this is only worthwhile if it this progress is cumulative and continues in further lives.

Otherwise it's a lot of work for nothing, right?
The only problem with focusing too much on other lifetimes is that it takes us back to beliefs as well as past and future (which are only mental activity). But having said that, yes there appears to be a benefit beyond this lifetime, and Ramana himself said that realising the Self is the greatest good that an individual can do for the world, too.

I have long wanted to try psychedelics, assuming there was a reasonably safe way to do so. Reports vary from the traumatic to the profound, and it's a shame that many places have banned them rather than investigating their potential. It's always interesting to hear what experiences people have had. The term 'ego death' is used by psychonauts, though is a different phenomenon to nonduality; a mystical experience rather than a permanent shift in identity.

If it is understood that this is a 'thing' - not merely another religious idea or a New Age fantasy - then it would be hard not to conclude that there is no higher or more worthwhile pursuit in life.
 
Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
Honestly, I don't identify with ego or self. I see the body as a huge liability dumped on me. Now who is this "me" ? May be the soul, or may be some entity separate from the body. I see body as a house forcibly given to me without asking for it and now I have to pay the EMI, EMI here means the time for which I have to carry this body. Death is when I am EMI free..lol.
I think you have the correct view!

One of the Buddha's followers compared the body to a corpse that he had to carry.
 
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Tears in Rain

Tears in Rain

..............
Dec 12, 2023
858
Each religion has had mystical leaders who present this same message using verbiage accessible to its members, such as Bernadette Roberts of the Catholic tradition.

Books written by people in an advanced state - someone like Eckhart Tolle being very accessible, or the teachings of Ramana Maharshi for more advanced seekers - carry little information but transmit power to one who is open and receptive.

The primary practical technique is Self-inquiry, which Ramana is most famous for.... So, understood and practiced, the question 'Who am I?' is the most direct key to discovering your true nature.
Bernadette Roberts and Ramana Maharishi probably were awakened; Eckhart Tolle has good books on ego, but he's not in an advanced state - probably just a normal guy who assembled all he had learned about ego and spirituality into a modern, accessible form.

Yes, asking 'who am I?' is usually put forward as the main method of self-inquire. But you would need to spend a long time doing this and writing it out - most people who self-inquire just skim the surface.

How do you view this process? Is it destructive or constructive ? If I let go of the ego , whatever remains, who is it ? And what is its impact physically?
Well, it's the annihilation of your ego, so it's totally destructive!
But if you're asking about pros and cons, from what I've read:
pros:
-Leads to freedom/liberation - as the song goes freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
- The ending of fear
- Fear is replaced by gratitude/agape.
- 100% Contentment
- It empties the emotional swamp; all your inner demons are destroyed. It's one big detox. Your body heals by becoming whole.
- You find your true purpose in life (life is still meaningless, but you do have purpose).
- Life becomes an experience of co-creation with the universe.
- the Universe becomes a place of wonder

Cons(from egos point of view)
- Everything goes, including all your attachments to your loved ones. You're basically leaving the human race behind, and becoming aloneness (not lonliness).

Physically, you go through a long period of spiritual detox; kundalini energy moves through your body, releasing all the crap from your body, leading to healing and homeostasis.

As for what remains, the Buddha was often silent on questions like these;
The Buddha said: "Truly, I have attained nothing from enlightenment".
That's what remains, nothingness. Obviously you won't know what nothingness is, until you transcend ego.

That's my two cents on spirituality. Back to ctb related matters for me.
 
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Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
The only problem with focusing too much on other lifetimes is that it takes us back to beliefs as well as past and future (which are only mental activity). But having said that, yes there appears to be a benefit beyond this lifetime, and Ramana himself said that realising the Self is the greatest good that an individual can do for the world, too.

I have long wanted to try psychedelics, assuming there was a reasonably safe way to do so. Reports vary from the traumatic to the profound, and it's a shame that many places have banned them rather than investigating their potential. It's always interesting to hear what experiences people have had. The term 'ego death' is used by psychonauts, though is a different phenomenon to nonduality; a mystical experience rather than a permanent shift in identity.

If it is understood that this is a 'thing' - not merely another religious idea or a New Age fantasy - then it would be hard not to conclude that there is no higher or more worthwhile pursuit in life.
You should try. I did acid s couple of times. Ayahuasca once... They are worth it even if you have 80% bad trips like me...

Because the other 20% will show you something special, specially if the dose is the correct for you.

I'm also a big fan of Ramana Maharashi and Krishnamurti and other real enlightened beings.

But yes psychedelic in many ways are amplifiers so if your day to day is negative self talk, you will feel that double, tripled or more (depends on the dosage as well).

Imo present moment awareness is not the goal. Because you can have that but also have a superimposed impure mind so the whole ordeal is pointless. Purification is important and all religions say that.
 
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Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
Bernadette Roberts and Ramana Maharishi probably were awakened; Eckhart Tolle has good books on ego, but he's not in an advanced state - probably just a normal guy who assembled all he had learned about ego and spirituality into a modern, accessible form.

Yes, asking 'who am I?' is usually put forward as the main method of self-inquire. But you would need to spend a long time doing this and writing it out - most people who self-inquire just skim the surface.


Well, it's the annihilation of your ego, so it's totally destructive!
But if you're asking about pros and cons, from what I've read:
pros:
-Leads to freedom/liberation - as the song goes freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
- The ending of fear
- Fear is replaced by gratitude/agape.
- 100% Contentment
- It empties the emotional swamp; all your inner demons are destroyed. It's one big detox. Your body heals by becoming whole.
- You find your true purpose in life (life is still meaningless, but you do have purpose).
- Life becomes an experience of co-creation with the universe.
- the Universe becomes a place of wonder

Cons(from egos point of view)
- Everything goes, including all your attachments to your loved ones. You're basically leaving the human race behind, and becoming aloneness (not lonliness).

Physically, you go through a long period of spiritual detox; kundalini energy moves through your body, releasing all the crap from your body, leading to healing and homeostasis.


The Buddha said: "Truly, I have attained nothing from enlightenment".
That's what remains, nothingness. Obviously you won't know what nothingness is, until you transcend ego.

That's my two cents on spirituality. Back to ctb related matters for me.
The Buddha said there were things to attain: higher minds, deeper states of concentration/absorption, access to all kinds of psychic powers, the development of wisdom, virtue, and of course the loss of greed, anger, delusion. As well the attainment of higher and higher happiness (if you lose suffering, you become "happier" in return).

From the perspective of Ego you gain, from the perspective of the Self, you lose. Although you do gain wisdom, I think?

But considering everyone in the world becomes your friend, it's not that you become more alone, but more connected to all.

Some Zen guy said he wanted to become attached to as many people as possible before he died. Of course if we don't understand that statement, it seems wrong, lol.

There was a text about the behaviour of an enlightened being from Advaita, I think, I'll see if I can find, it was very in depth, but because it said an enlightened being is a friend to all.

And if you notice, the next Buddha is called Matreyia which means "friend".
 
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D

doneforlife

Specialist
Jul 18, 2023
360
I think you have the correct view!

One of the Buddha's followers compared the body to a corpse that he had to carry.
But there is a difference here. In my analogy, you have to take care of the house. Even though it's forceful, you can't just leave the house in a dilapidated situation. So what hurts is "forcefully" taking care. In case of corpse , does it matter if you take care or not ? Corpse doesn't need food , will not fight to avoid pain. How can anyone ever treat itself as a corpse? I feel it's a pretty negative take. Sorry if it hurts any sentiments.
 
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Davey36000

Davey36000

Experienced
Jun 12, 2023
254
But there is a difference here. In my analogy, you have to take care of the house. Even though it's forceful, you can't just leave the house in a dilapidated situation. So what hurts is "forcefully" taking care. In case of corpse , does it matter if you take care or not ? Corpse doesn't need food , will not fight to avoid pain. How can anyone ever treat itself as a corpse? I feel it's a pretty negative take. Sorry if it hurts any sentiments.
No sentiments hurt!

You are of course correct again!

Some of these statements can be extreme but sometimes their purpose is to bring the mind back to balance from a certain viewpoint/perspective.
 
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