Spiritual perspectives on suicide

[Davey36000]

According to the WHO 700.000 people commit suicide every year. Besides all the obscure data that we don't know from countries where governments don't want these statistics to be known like North Korea etc...

Some spiritual perspectives here which are rarely talked here about suicide:

Shankacharya's Vikekachudamani:



"If, by some great penance, that rarity, a human body is obtained, with its

ability to understand the meaning of the scriptures, and yet, owing to

attachment to insentient things, effort is not made to attain the immutable

state of liberation, which is one's own true state, then indeed one is a

fool committing suicide. What greater fool is there than one who does not

seek his own good?"



In this regard we find the following words of guidance from Bhagavan

recorded in Talks #340:



A question arises, why there should be suicides. Why does one do it?

Bhagavan replied: "Because he is unhappy and desires to put an end to his

unhappiness. He actually does it by ending the association with the body

which represents all unhappiness. For there must be a killer to kill the

body. He is the survivor after suicide. That is the Self."



Later, in Talks# 536, Bhagavan shows the ways and means to escape

unhappiness, even the unhappiness that leads to suicide:



"The person soaked in the "I-am-the-body" idea is the greatest sinner and he

is a suicide. The experience of "I-am-the-Self" is the highest virtue. Even

a moment's dhyana (meditation) to that effect is enough to destroy all the

Sanchita Karma. It works like the sun before whom darkness is dispelled. If

one remains always in dhyana, can any sin, however heinous (suicidal) it be,

survive his dhyana?"



We must never stop until the goal is reached; the goal of shaking free from

the limitations promoted on dependence on anything other than God. Sri

Ramana Maharshi puts us to the test, pointing the Divine finger at us to

realize that we are not just suicidal, but actually living in death.



D.: Death must then be the highest state.



M.: Yes. We are now living in Death. Those who have limited the unlimited

Self have committed suicide by putting on such limitations. (Talks #435)

 

[Forever Sleep]

Hmm yeah- but all those spiritual teachings presume the body and spirit are separate beings and one can live on without the other- which- no one really knows. How are they so sure about the nature of existence?

It's effective of course. Like all ghost stories- it makes you frightened of doing something because of the mysterious and presumably bad consequences that might happen if you do.

Did your spirit suffer in agony before you were born? Do you remember? Do we all receive new spirits? What is so special about the unity of flesh and spirit that we can't break it but it's ok if we die naturally? Is it ok if we are murdered? What are we supposed to be learning in our flesh suites? What about life extension? People who are resuscitated. Does God get angry that they didn't receive that soul when they should have?

Sorry OP- I'm not meaning to have a go at you. I just have so many questions around all orthodox religions.

 

[Pluto]

I am a Ramana devotee (of sorts). A lot of context is needed to understand what he is saying. And even then, being in the state of the pure Self is the only true understanding.

Nisargadatta Maharaj commented on suicide a couple of times. On one occasion, he questioned whether suicide actually solves the problem - echoing what was said above. And yet, on another occasion, he sympathised with the thinking behind a person choosing to end their 'torture and humiliation'.

The missing link is that a Western person - whether they be suicidal or 'happy' - will always be 100% identified with their ego/mind/thoughts. All would view the transcendent Self as a mere idea of Eastern philosophy that some people might believe in. Or they might have never heard of it. And when there's no non-materialistic upbringing and no openness, the experience will confirm that same idea of individuality in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Most people here would aspire to a reasonable lifestyle with basic standards of health, social life, finances, etc. Yet even this would be a wasted life by the standards of a sage.

Some people do develop openness to spirituality as a result of suffering. And of those, some do manage to have incredible revelations or transformative experiences. However, I rarely bring up this subject now as good conversations are too hard to come by.

 

[Little_Suzy]

My soul is saved, and I shall be given a Catholic funeral in accordance with my beliefs.

What I've highlighted is what I read the most on this forum. The Catholic Church appears to have finally acknowledged that many people in the world live in perpetual physical and psychological suffering. "A person may not be fully accountable for the deed due to a variety of internal and external factors."


Catechism states, "Grave psychological disturbances, anguish, or grave fear of hardship, suffering, or torture can diminish the responsibility of the one committing suicide." This qualification does not make suicide a right action in any circumstance; however, it does make us realize that the person may not be totally culpable for the action because of various circumstances or personal conditions.

We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity for salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

This strong moral affirmation is followed by the assessments of modern psychiatry in attributing suicidal tendencies to mental disorders.


Suicidal thoughts are a symptom of a mental disorder. Psychiatrists either shut us down or refer us to psychiatric hospitals because their authority is limited by legislation. Health care practitioners must follow this protocol or risk losing their licenses.

 

[Lookoutbelow]

I am a Ramana devotee (of sorts). A lot of context is needed to understand what he is saying. And even then, being in the state of the pure Self is the only true understanding.

Nisargadatta Maharaj commented on suicide a couple of times. On one occasion, he questioned whether suicide actually solves the problem - echoing what was said above. And yet, on another occasion, he sympathised with the thinking behind a person choosing to end their 'torture and humiliation'.

The missing link is that a Western person - whether they be suicidal or 'happy' - will always be 100% identified with their ego/mind/thoughts. All would view the transcendent Self as a mere idea of Eastern philosophy that some people might believe in. Or they might have never heard of it. And when there's no non-materialistic upbringing and no openness, the experience will confirm that same idea of individuality in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Most people here would aspire to a reasonable lifestyle with basic standards of health, social life, finances, etc. Yet even this would be a wasted life by the standards of a sage.

Some people do develop openness to spirituality as a result of suffering. And of those, some do manage to have incredible revelations or transformative experiences. However, I rarely bring up this subject now as good conversations are too hard to come by.

As my time draws near. The best explanation that has answered most question that I have. Which also resonates with me is we are consciousness experiencing itself from a different perspective. Our brain does not create consciousness. Our brain filters down consciousness to a usable level for this reality. Once our brain dies we experience our consciousness in its expanse. We add this perspective to it and chose to experience something else next. Just my opinion that resonates with me.

 

[Pluto]

As my time draws near. The best explanation that has answered most question that I have. Which also resonates with me is we are consciousness experiencing itself from a different perspective. Our brain does not create consciousness. Our brain filters down consciousness to a usable level for this reality. Once our brain dies we experience our consciousness in its expanse. We add this perspective to it and chose to experience something else next. Just my opinion that resonates with me.

This is a deep insight. People on the forefront of consciousness studies, like Prof. Donald Hoffman, would also agree.

The important point is that it is possible to know the pure consciousness while in the body. The result is a radical shift in identity. It is why people in that state are constantly banging on about how we are not the body and the world is just an illusory appearance.

 

[Lookoutbelow]

Yes, the reason we know so little about consciousness and the mind is apparently way back when the church had so much power and science was just in its infancy. The church said science could only deal with the material world and the church would deal with the non physical. Spirit/mind/consciousness. If scientist went to deep into the spiritual side they would be put to death for heresy. So science only stuck to physical matter and once It got down to quantum physics where the laws break down they kind of just stopped there. Obviously things are changing now, but science is way behind the curve on this subject. I could go on forever. It nice having an actual discussion about this stuff.

 

[Davey36000]

Hmm yeah- but all those spiritual teachings presume the body and spirit are separate beings and one can live on without the other- which- no one really knows. How are they so sure about the nature of existence?

It's effective of course. Like all ghost stories- it makes you frightened of doing something because of the mysterious and presumably bad consequences that might happen if you do.

Did your spirit suffer in agony before you were born? Do you remember? Do we all receive new spirits? What is so special about the unity of flesh and spirit that we can't break it but it's ok if we die naturally? Is it ok if we are murdered? What are we supposed to be learning in our flesh suites? What about life extension? People who are resuscitated. Does God get angry that they didn't receive that soul when they should have?

Sorry OP- I'm not meaning to have a go at you. I just have so many questions around all orthodox religions.

So, basically, religion tells us things that we in modern times say but with other words. For example, in the Bhagavad Gita (sacred Hindu text) it says that the body is like a carriage and we (the spirit/Self/Soul/etc) are the conductor.

This is basically saying that we are using flesh suits and once "we" (because ultimately we are not the body), die, we discard this flesh suit for another, just like changing t-shirts.

The problem is we always take the body to be ourselves and because of that a whole host of problems arise.

And this supposedly continues on for many lifetimes, and any association with anything that ultimately is not your Self is bound to bring suffering.

That is what they believe in that part of the world which doesn't seem necessarily wrong.

It only takes a bit of meditation to notice an effect on our mind (science even approves of the benefits of it), so who knows what is the effect of a lifetime dedicated to that practice.

Ultimately what Sri Ramana says which is extremely important in his teachings is: suffering is unnatural (the result of believing I am the body), our real nature is happiness, consciousness. The only real refugee is turning within to re-discover that happiness which is you.

Buddhism happens to say the same but with different words.

 

[Lookoutbelow]

This is a deep insight. People on the forefront of consciousness studies, like Prof. Donald Hoffman, would also agree.

The important point is that it is possible to know the pure consciousness while in the body. The result is a radical shift in identity. It is why people in that state are constantly banging on about how we are not the body and the world is just an illusory appearance.

This is a deep insight. People on the forefront of consciousness studies, like Prof. Donald Hoffman, would also agree.

The important point is that it is possible to know the pure consciousness while in the body. The result is a radical shift in identity. It is why people in that state are constantly banging on about how we are not the body and the world is just an illusory appearance.

Yes

 

[Pluto]

Yes, the reason we know so little about consciousness and the mind is apparently way back when the church had so much power and science was just in its infancy.

I have a slightly different take on the Church. They did try to hold back science in certain respects, and in some cases aggressively tried to suppress new discoveries like heliocentrism. This rivalry between science and religion eventually gave rise to the mainstream, atheistic science we know today which in turn tries to suppress legitimate spirituality and push the agenda of a strictly reductionist/materialistic world.

If at any point society was focused on genuine truth-seeking without all of the tribalism, we would be light-years ahead of where we are as a species.

 

[Lookoutbelow]

This is a deep insight. People on the forefront of consciousness studies, like Prof. Donald Hoffman, would also agree.

The important point is that it is possible to know the pure consciousness while in the body. The result is a radical shift in identity. It is why people in that state are constantly banging on about how we are not the body and the world is just an illusory appearance.

I have a slightly different take on the Church. They did try to hold back science in certain respects, and in some cases aggressively tried to suppress new discoveries like heliocentrism. This rivalry between science and religion eventually gave rise to the mainstream, atheistic science we know today which in turn tries to suppress legitimate spirituality and push the agenda of a strictly reductionist/materialistic world.

If at any point society was focused on genuine truth-seeking without all of the tribalism, we would be light-years ahead of where we are as a species.

For sure. There are studies that definitevly show that scientists or any profession are more concerned with being accepted by their peers than with facts that might contradict. So, the same old same old just gets recycled.

 

[coolbreeze56]

A bit off topic to what you folks are talking about in this thread but I have read that hell is not real, but instead is a place you make up. It all depends on your state at the time of death, if you are full of fear or anger when you die, you will most likely see that amplified when your spirit leaves your body. However, its not never permanent and you eventually will see the light.

 

[Tears in Rain]

So, basically, religion tells us things that we in modern times say but with other words. For example, in the Bhagavad Gita (sacred Hindu text) it says that the body is like a carriage and we (the spirit/Self/Soul/etc) are the conductor.

This is basically saying that we are using flesh suits and once "we" (because ultimately we are not the body), die, we discard this flesh suit for another, just like changing t-shirts.

The problem is we always take the body to be ourselves and because of that a whole host of problems arise.

The body's a rental car, and the universe is just a motel. It's human ego that clings, and turns everything into a shit-show. We are flawed by design.

The missing link is that a Western person - whether they be suicidal or 'happy' - will always be 100% identified with their ego/mind/thoughts. All would view the transcendent Self as a mere idea

But it's hard not to identify with your own body, mind, and ego. We're programmed to do it. Maybe we're meant to; it's just that human ego has gotten out of control with the greed and vanity.

How come there's so few of these real spiritual people? If these Eastern spiritual teachers were worth following or studying, how come there's not way more spiritual people around?
Real spirituality is dead in the modern world.

 

[Lookoutbelow]

A bit off topic to what you folks are talking about in this thread but I have read that hell is not real, but instead is a place you make up. It all depends on your state at the time of death, if you are full of fear or anger when you die, you will most likely see that amplified when your spirit leaves your body. However, its not never permanent and you eventually will see the light.

I have heard something like that.

 

[doneforlife]

I am a Ramana devotee (of sorts). A lot of context is needed to understand what he is saying. And even then, being in the state of the pure Self is the only true understanding.

Nisargadatta Maharaj commented on suicide a couple of times. On one occasion, he questioned whether suicide actually solves the problem - echoing what was said above. And yet, on another occasion, he sympathised with the thinking behind a person choosing to end their 'torture and humiliation'.

The missing link is that a Western person - whether they be suicidal or 'happy' - will always be 100% identified with their ego/mind/thoughts. All would view the transcendent Self as a mere idea of Eastern philosophy that some people might believe in. Or they might have never heard of it. And when there's no non-materialistic upbringing and no openness, the experience will confirm that same idea of individuality in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Most people here would aspire to a reasonable lifestyle with basic standards of health, social life, finances, etc. Yet even this would be a wasted life by the standards of a sage.

Some people do develop openness to spirituality as a result of suffering. And of those, some do manage to have incredible revelations or transformative experiences. However, I rarely bring up this subject now as good conversations are too hard to come by.

True. Good conversations are hard to come by. In Bhagwat Gita , it is said that we are not this body. We should not be overwhelmed when anyone looses this body for they will receive another one. But the pain and sadness which by the way is overwhelming is because of our attachment. So we need to be detached. And how is that possible? How can we live in this world by being detached ? If we become desireless , we are already dead , right ? Hence , Bhagwat Gita also advocates to practice what is called "nishkam karmyoga". It means you shouldn't eat because you love eating and are attached to the process of eating. You should eat because it's your duty to feed the body. And then do that act in God's name. Marry , procreate , build a house, do everything, there is no need to give up on the worldly experiences. But do it as your duty and do it in the name of God. By doing so , you are detaching yourself from the results and outcomes of the act. By not doing so , you are binding yourself to the act and hence binding yourself to this world. You can be free from this world only by doing your duty in the name of God . Hope I was able to convey...lol.

 

[EternalShore]

Ah, I see someone already posted about the revised beliefs of the Catholic Church! hehe~
According to the Reformation principle of Sola fide, we are saved through faith alone regardless of our works. So if we have faith in Jesus Christ, regardless of what actions we take (such as sewer slide), God forgave us of those sins and shall hopefully grant us mercy. :) So altho sewer slide isn't exactly "moral" and good within Protestantism as loving one's neighbor would be, it isn't entirely unlikely for people who kermit sewer slide to be saved as well. :)

 

[Pluto]

A bit off topic to what you folks are talking about in this thread but I have read that hell is not real, but instead is a place you make up. It all depends on your state at the time of death, if you are full of fear or anger when you die, you will most likely see that amplified when your spirit leaves your body. However, its not never permanent and you eventually will see the light.

Yes, this is the consensus of several sources that I respect, including the theologian Neale Donald Walsch and various near-death studies. I don't have anything to add.

How come there's so few of these real spiritual people? If these Eastern spiritual teachers were worth following or studying, how come there's not way more spiritual people around?
Real spirituality is dead in the modern world.

This is a great question. Hard to give a concise answer.

There is a broad consensus that when people reach an egoless state, they are no longer functioning as an individual person making choices and taking actions; indeed, they would say that nobody ever was. As a result, some people are destined to become teachers, others will bliss out without interacting with people again, and still others will function as seemingly normal householders. The force at play is beyond the mind's ability to comprehend. Ramana rarely spoke in English, though there was a particular phrase that he liked to say, "Automatic divine activity."

Why are there so few? Firstly, very few people are genuinely even on this path, including so-called religious people. Secondly, there are many perceptual filters which operate constantly to keep the Self hidden in plain sight. Thirdly, there may be more enlightened people around than we think, including some unnoticed, everyday folks with no apparent religious or spiritual pretensions. I want to use Angelo Dilullo as an example, though of course he is very much a teacher.

And finally, this is not a black-and-white situation. It is ultimately white-and-white; everybody is already enlightened and non-enlightenment is a mere illusion similar to a bad dream that is immediately exposed as fictional upon awakening. Or from a more pragmatic standpoint, there are different degrees of enlightenment, hence more of a greyscale situation.

You can be free from this world only by doing your duty in the name of God . Hope I was able to convey...lol.

This is good, practical advice, not dissimilar to that of other traditions, such as the Buddhist 8-fold path or the Abrahamic ten commandments. The goal behind it is aligning one's actions with divine will as an intermediate stage.

However, a more hardcore teacher like Ramana would have a different perspective. I can't find the exact quote, but he said something like, "It is no doubt said in some books that one should cultivate one good quality after another and thus prepare for liberation. But for the one who practices Self-inquiry, his effort is itself enough to cultivate all good qualities." What he is saying is that functioning purely as the Self is the highest state, rather than trying to attune the mind to emulate divine qualities. The only problem then becomes the practical aspect for most people; hence the need for an understanding of the teachings, practices like Self-inquiry and time with a teacher.

 

[Davey36000]

Yes, this is the consensus of several sources that I respect, including the theologian Neale Donald Walsch and various near-death studies. I don't have anything to add.


This is a great question. Hard to give a concise answer.

There is a broad consensus that when people reach an egoless state, they are no longer functioning as an individual person making choices and taking actions; indeed, they would say that nobody ever was. As a result, some people are destined to become teachers, others will bliss out without interacting with people again, and still others will function as seemingly normal householders. The force at play is beyond the mind's ability to comprehend. Ramana rarely spoke in English, though there was a particular phrase that he liked to say, "Automatic divine activity."

Why are there so few? Firstly, very few people are genuinely even on this path, including so-called religious people. Secondly, there are many perceptual filters which operate constantly to keep the Self hidden in plain sight. Thirdly, there may be more enlightened people around than we think, including some unnoticed, everyday folks with no apparent religious or spiritual pretensions. I want to use Angelo Dilullo as an example, though of course he is very much a teacher.

And finally, this is not a black-and-white situation. It is ultimately white-and-white; everybody is already enlightened and non-enlightenment is a mere illusion similar to a bad dream that is immediately exposed as fictional upon awakening. Or from a more pragmatic standpoint, there are different degrees of enlightenment, hence more of a greyscale situation.


This is good, practical advice, not dissimilar to that of other traditions, such as the Buddhist 8-fold path or the Abrahamic ten commandments. The goal behind it is aligning one's actions with divine will as an intermediate stage.

However, a more hardcore teacher like Ramana would have a different perspective. I can't find the exact quote, but he said something like, "It is no doubt said in some books that one should cultivate one good quality after another and thus prepare for liberation. But for the one who practices Self-inquiry, his effort is itself enough to cultivate all good qualities." What he is saying is that functioning purely as the Self is the highest state, rather than trying to attune the mind to emulate divine qualities. The only problem then becomes the practical aspect for most people; hence the need for an understanding of the teachings, practices like Self-inquiry and time with a teacher.

Ramana said everything is predetermined, what do you think? Coincidences exist... Or not? Etc...

The Buddha said there were stages to attain, and there is enlightenment activity and the lack of it.

Only Advaitins and some hinduists Will say everything is the will of Brahma, considering it's all just a play, which can be used to literally justify anything.

If the Self is hidden in plain sight why can't we see it?

 

[doneforlife]

Yes, this is the consensus of several sources that I respect, including the theologian Neale Donald Walsch and various near-death studies. I don't have anything to add.


This is a great question. Hard to give a concise answer.

There is a broad consensus that when people reach an egoless state, they are no longer functioning as an individual person making choices and taking actions; indeed, they would say that nobody ever was. As a result, some people are destined to become teachers, others will bliss out without interacting with people again, and still others will function as seemingly normal householders. The force at play is beyond the mind's ability to comprehend. Ramana rarely spoke in English, though there was a particular phrase that he liked to say, "Automatic divine activity."

Why are there so few? Firstly, very few people are genuinely even on this path, including so-called religious people. Secondly, there are many perceptual filters which operate constantly to keep the Self hidden in plain sight. Thirdly, there may be more enlightened people around than we think, including some unnoticed, everyday folks with no apparent religious or spiritual pretensions. I want to use Angelo Dilullo as an example, though of course he is very much a teacher.

And finally, this is not a black-and-white situation. It is ultimately white-and-white; everybody is already enlightened and non-enlightenment is a mere illusion similar to a bad dream that is immediately exposed as fictional upon awakening. Or from a more pragmatic standpoint, there are different degrees of enlightenment, hence more of a greyscale situation.


This is good, practical advice, not dissimilar to that of other traditions, such as the Buddhist 8-fold path or the Abrahamic ten commandments. The goal behind it is aligning one's actions with divine will as an intermediate stage.

However, a more hardcore teacher like Ramana would have a different perspective. I can't find the exact quote, but he said something like, "It is no doubt said in some books that one should cultivate one good quality after another and thus prepare for liberation. But for the one who practices Self-inquiry, his effort is itself enough to cultivate all good qualities." What he is saying is that functioning purely as the Self is the highest state, rather than trying to attune the mind to emulate divine qualities. The only problem then becomes the practical aspect for most people; hence the need for an understanding of the teachings, practices like Self-inquiry and time with a teacher.

Honestly didn't understand what is functioning as self?
How do you operate without ego ? Ego is self. How do you operate without self ?

 

[Pluto]

Ramana said everything is predetermined, what do you think? Coincidences exist... Or not? Etc...

The Buddha said there were stages to attain, and there is enlightenment activity and the lack of it.

Only Advaitins and some hinduists Will say everything is the will of Brahma, considering it's all just a play, which can be used to literally justify anything.

If the Self is hidden in plain sight why can't we see it?

Love the great questions!

Regarding predetermination, a practical answer needs nuance. The everyday experience is of making decisions and playing Whac-A-Mole with our human problems, even though the intellect can see how much we are conditioned by our childhoods and past experiences. So who exactly is making these choices? What is its nature? Is there an 'observer' who is watching the drama without actually being the protagonist?

A lot of Ramana's interactions with people consisted of asking questions like these. His famous Nan Yar (Who am I?) is at the crux of it. When the time is ripe, this line of questioning leads to a profound revelation. The revelation that you are Brahman. It is not subtle for the one experiencing it.

Papaji was one of Ramana's students who went on to become a teacher himself.

Honestly didn't understand what is functioning as self?

Again, this is a question of identity. From a human perspective, we have a structure of ideas about ourselves (past history, opinions, nationality, gender, socioeconomic, etc.) which give us a sense of self which we use to interface with the world. It is also kept afloat internally through incessant thinking and mental commentary.

The radical teaching of Advaita is that none of this has any substance. It is easier to explain this using analogy. When awakening from a dream, was the character you were playing in the dream ever real? Or the world in which you found yourself? No. A more modern analogy is interacting with a virtual world via a VR headset. Note that regardless of whether asleep or otherwise, whether the world is real or not, there is the constant background of a conscious presence that is self-aware. This consciousness, here and now, is the Self that is the elephant in the room that is constantly overlooked by most people.

When the individual self is seen as an illusion, life continues somewhat as normal. An analogy by Swami Vivekananda was of seeing water in the desert only to find it was a mirage; the mirage was still visible afterwards but was no longer believed in. This is what happens with the ego of the enlightened one.

So what is meant by functioning as the capital-S Self? I don't think it's understandable, and might be counterproductive to make a mental model of it. Though people have describe life flowing effortlessly and never being troubled by the world.

 

[doneforlife]

I have no issues seeing life as an observer, outside of the frame and considering everything as a mirage. Shedding ego/self and detaching and merely being an observer and visualising the world as a VR or as dream is all hunky Dory until an ant bites you and the pain you feel is something which is beyond your threshold and all these analogies of mirage , dream , VR comes crashing down. This is real life. With real PAIN.

 

[Aim]

My soul died 3 years ago. So i can't really imagine myself going into the spiritual world anymore. Sadly. But would love to be forgiven and GO there!

 

[Pluto]

Physical pain still exists but is experienced completely differently because there is no resistance to it; no story of wishing it were not there. Angelo Dilullo has described it as more of a fascination with the experience, with no preference for what is conventionally called 'good' experiences over 'bad' ones. The egoless state transcends good and bad.

Meanwhile, Ramana did not appear to experience physical pain as we know it. On one occasion, somebody got him to prove the state he was in by immersing himself in some sort of awful substance (chilli paste or something). He passed the test and was left alone after that. Late in his life, a devotee witnessed him going through a rather barbaric operation involving the injection of radium needles for his cancer. Even then, Ramana remained in a state of bliss; by the end of it, the doctors were prostrating to him!

This is as much as I can say, as I have no direct experience whatsoever of that state.

 

[Davey36000]

I have no issues seeing life as an observer, outside of the frame and considering everything as a mirage. Shedding ego/self and detaching and merely being an observer and visualising the world as a VR or as dream is all hunky Dory until an ant bites you and the pain you feel is something which is beyond your threshold and all these analogies of mirage , dream , VR comes crashing down. This is real life. With real PAIN.

Yes this is what I noticed in my experience too... Exactly like you described, BUT...

In the case of Ramana, he accidentally walked into a wasp nest but let them bite into his feet/leg to appease then because the wasps were really mad and so they left him because they got their "revenge".

While walking with devotes, he had a thorn on his foot, a devote said "look", pointing at the thorn and Ramana pushed his thorn even further into his skin by pressing it on the floor and basically said "have you eliminated the thorn from your mind?'.

But the most famous is basically having tumours removed from his arm without anesthesia, without flinching, even the doctor bowed in Respect!

When asked how, he said just as the doctor observed his surgery he was performing, he did just the same...


But the most famous of them all his probably the case of the vietnamese monk Thich Quang Duc, he just immolated himself and never flinched, never moved, just like a statue.

Some guy in India fries chicken and picks them up with his hands while they are still hot.

High pain tolerance is definitely a thing and it's certainly some sort of power that certain spiritual practitioners practice...

I dunno if it's very useful on it's own though, maybe just as an extra.

Edit: like Pluto said it'd probably a no preference thing, no more ego, etc...

Also once Ramana was walking barefoot with a devote. The devote was complaining that it was too hot.

Ramana said something like Imagine you're the SUN, if you are hot like the SUN, nothing will bother you.

Eventually that helped the guy...

 

[Tears in Rain]

If the Self is hidden in plain sight why can't we see it?

Because you identify with your ego, it clouds your view.

How do you operate without ego ? Ego is self. How do you operate without self ?

Apparently, mystics are in flow with the Universal intelligence. They are integrated with it; life becomes a co-creative experience with the Universe/Brahman.They still have the remnants of an ego, they just no longer identify with the character. They are at one with their surroundings, but still identify as a separate entity to other people, if that makes sense.

When awakening from a dream, was the character you were playing in the dream ever real? Or the world in which you found yourself? No. A more modern analogy is interacting with a virtual world via a VR headset.

I agree. So would people, if given a choice, want to wake up if it meant the deletion of their ego, and all their attachments to loved ones, and then becoming nothingness? Or would the prefer to stay in their dream?
Red pill, or blue pill?

My soul died 3 years ago. So i can't really imagine myself going into the spiritual world anymore. Sadly. But would love to be forgiven and GO there!

Your soul died 3 years ago? What do you mean by that, out of interest? Is that a religious/Catholic thing you're referring to?

 

[Hotsackage]

Idk, with all my studying of science recently and the role of consciousness is very not important in the scheme of the universe.

 

[Davey36000]

Because you identify with your ego, it clouds your view.

Apparently, mystics are in flow with the Universal intelligence. They are integrated with it; life becomes a co-creative experience with the Universe/Brahman.They still have the remnants of an ego, they just no longer identify with the character. They are at one with their surroundings, but still identify as a separate entity to other people, if that makes sense.


I agree. So would people, if given a choice, want to wake up if it meant the deletion of their ego, and all their attachments to loved ones, and then becoming nothingness? Or would the prefer to stay in their dream?
Red pill, or blue pill?


Your soul died 3 years ago? What do you mean by that, out of interest? Is that a religious/Catholic thing you're referring to?

How to stop identification with the ego?

 

[doneforlife]

Yes this is what I noticed in my experience too... Exactly like you described, BUT...

In the case of Ramana, he accidentally walked into a wasp nest but let them bite into his feet/leg to appease then because the wasps were really mad and so they left him because they got their "revenge".

While walking with devotes, he had a thorn on his foot, a devote said "look", pointing at the thorn and Ramana pushed his thorn even further into his skin by pressing it on the floor and basically said "have you eliminated the thorn from your mind?'.

But the most famous is basically having tumours removed from his arm without anesthesia, without flinching, even the doctor bowed in Respect!

When asked how, he said just as the doctor observed his surgery he was performing, he did just the same...


But the most famous of them all his probably the case of the vietnamese monk Thich Quang Duc, he just immolated himself and never flinched, never moved, just like a statue.

Some guy in India fries chicken and picks them up with his hands while they are still hot.

High pain tolerance is definitely a thing and it's certainly some sort of power that certain spiritual practitioners practice...

I dunno if it's very useful on it's own though, maybe just as an extra.

Edit: like Pluto said it'd probably a no preference thing, no more ego, etc...

Also once Ramana was walking barefoot with a devote. The devote was complaining that it was too hot.

Ramana said something like Imagine you're the SUN, if you are hot like the SUN, nothing will bother you.

Eventually that helped the guy...

The more I read about such incidents, I feel a part of their brain ( the pain receptor) is not functioning properly. I can't say if that is a good thing to be this courageous to undergo an operation without anesthesia. If he actually didn't feel anything, fine ...but if he did feel the pain but wanted to put up a brave front , then it's dangerous. It's infact wrong. Many naive followers would try it out and that would result in self harm.

 

[Davey36000]

The more I read about such incidents, I feel a part of their brain ( the pain receptor) is not functioning properly. I can't say if that is a good thing to be this courageous to undergo an operation without anesthesia. If he actually didn't feel anything, fine ...but if he did feel the pain but wanted to put up a brave front , then it's dangerous. It's infact wrong. Many naive followers would try it out and that would result in self harm.

Maybe you are right, or maybe they are more "spiritually advanced".

There are all kinds of stories in regards to stuff like this.

Oh, I forgot... When he was young, he was meditating, hidden in a cave, not eating and ants and other bugs were biting his skin. A person who found him he had to feed him with a tube or something, because Ramana just didn't care.


In a spiritual context, a person has to build a virtuous sense of self, and then drop it (at the very end) Or just purify the mind basically.

The only way to have a glimpse that "there is something more" are definitely psychedelics. But they are not 100% Safe. Some people have bad trips and sometimes even PTSD.

Otherwise just belief and/or practice...

 

[Tears in Rain]

Idk, with all my studying of science recently and the role of consciousness is very not important in the scheme of the universe.

I agree that in the modern world, and modern society, consciousness plays no importance in people's daily thoughts.
Same with modern science, although some scientists in the past, like David Bohm, and
Michael Talbot, did try and incorporate consciousness into their scientific theories.

I'm aware that talk of consciousness etc leads to a lot of eyerolls. It would only be of importance to people's lives if they went through a spiritual awakening, which almost noone does.

How to stop identification with the ego?

By waking up! Seek and thee shall find! (But be careful, if you take the red pill you might be like Neo in the Matrix, you might want to go back! ).

The only way to have a glimpse that "there is something more" are definitely psychedelics. But they are not 100% Safe. Some people have bad trips and sometimes even PTSD.

Otherwise just belief.

Yeah, Ken Kesey, Tim Leary, and them guys have written about their adventures in consciousness/altered stares of consciousness.
But one awakened guy, the infamous Osho, warned against it as a means to wake up.