Discussion Something my dad said about suicidal people (he doesn’t know I am suicidal)

[sadlyexisting]

I had a conversation with my dad about suicidal people recently, and he said "I am for assisted-suicide, but only if that person has an physical illness that can't be cured, because when you have a mental illness it can easily and fast be cured with the resources that we have today. People who kill themselves don't want to get better and want to die without reason or even trying to get better."

I don't know what to think of that, it is so wrong but right at the same time.

What are your thoughts about this?

 

[gonegirl1]

I think we always want to get better we just got tired of trying

 

[Praestat_Mori]

Well there are certainly mentally ill people who'd really have a chance to get better if they got the help and support they'd really needed. But there are also mental diseases that cannot be cured. The problem is we can see physical illness, mental illness cannot be "seen". Diagnosis mainly depends on what a patient is reporting.

 

[Foreverix]

It's not true that it's quickly and easily fixed. For some people it may be that easy, but if you're really suicidal, it's far from quick and easy. Otherwise suicide rates would be vastly lower.

However, for me, it is true that I don't want to get better, because that means I've got to keep playing the game, trying to get better. But for what? Just to watch my parents die? To see myself get even older? Sure, maybe I find a great partner, have a decade of love and laughs, and then I'm met with a cancer diagnosis or heart disease.

The story only has one ending, and it isn't happily ever after. I do not see any point in postponing death for the mere chance at feeling good and being distracted for a little while.

 

[tiger b]

...because when you have a mental illness it can easily and fast be cured with the resources that we have today.

Is that so? 'cured'?

He is welcome to his opinion but I strongly and respectfully disagree with that, and I suspect very few medical professionals would hold to that.

There's a difference between improving coping skills, lessening pain, being able to function in this world, and an actual bone fide cure. And I'm as optimistic as they come about mental health, and respect the help that CBT etc can give many.

I wish he was correct and I'd be delighted to be wrong.

 

[FuneralCry]

I don't really think I understand the people who believe that wishing to die is an illness or that everyone even wants to exist in the first place. In my case wanting to die feels like the only rational thing to wish for. The thought of permanently ceasing to exist comforts me and it makes sense to me wanting to prevent all future unnecessary suffering in this existence that is pointless and just causes harm.

The problem lies in existence rather than the thoughts of suicide and for me this way of thinking is having awareness rather than something to get "better" from.

I don't understand those who worship and value this futile existence so much to the point that they so delusionally want to deny people a right to die, a peaceful exit from this existence should be avaliable for everyone as after all we were all so cruelly burdened with the ability to exist in the first place.
People should be able to die when they want to, and it's not something for other people to decide that needs to be justified and needs to meet other people's suffering criteria.

The right to die is a human right, I don't see how death could ever be a bad thing anyway as nobody can suffer from not existing and we are all just going to die anyway, death is the most normal thing. All that is bad is ultimately as a result of existence.

 

[Kattt]

There are many different types of mental illness. For example, I attended a review with the UK benefits agency, who decide whether you qualify for disability and if so, at which level.
My CPN (community psychiatric nurse) attended with me. It's always a good idea to have someone like this to come with you. You have to convince the assessor that you are incapacitated and so the less capable of coping with the interview you are, the more credible your portrayal.
Anyway, after about 15 minutes and being asked about previous treatments, referring to my CPN became increasingly necessary, due to the extensive nature of said history, my piss poor memory and the fact that these interviews are truly very stressful. The decision made can influence your income, housing, potential power of attorney and more.
My CPN pointed out that I had been under the care of psychiatric services for at least 25 years, having been prescribed countless medications and involving hospitalisation on both a voluntary and involuntary basis for as long as eight months. The assessor was taken aback, to say the least. He said that he wasn't aware that this was (his words, not mine) "a more serious situation" and not the "everyday" kind of illness. Following this, I was asked if I would be more comfortable waiting outside while they completed the formalities, to which I agreed.
Of course, I'm well aware of the difference in severity with which mental illness can affect each individual and have witnessed others that were in an entirely different league concerning the gravity with which their condition manifests itself in their day to day life. However, this individual, having no particular expertise in the field of mental health identified a condition that apparently anyone might experience, having relatively little impact on them. A much more serious evaluation was concluded based upon the duration of status as a patient, diversity of medications and nature and duration of hospitalisation.
It should be noted however, that I also suffer from a lifelong auto immune condition that has caused advanced deterioration of the skeleton. Before making my exit, the assessor did explain to my CPN that serious illness was regarded as a higher priority than physical conditions (in terms of requiring assistance with care).
If such assumptions can be made by people unqualified to do so, with the power to affect matters that serious, it's not really surprising that the general public who have little to no understanding of mental health should regard it with such flippancy.
As for the notion that people who commit suicide simply don't want to get better, I cannot agree. That's not only a flagrant generalisation, but undermines the efforts of innumerable people who have literally been to hell and back.
I've been a member of this community for nearly thirty years, since it was ASH (Alt.suicide.holiday) first on Usenet, then Google groups before making brief sojourns at various social media platforms and finding a home here. If that were true, they would all be dead. Some used medication and others psychotherapy, but all undoubtedly benefitted from the companionship, acceptance and lack of judgement they found here.
It's important to consider the extensive array of conditions and varying symptoms experienced by each patient. For example, acute bipolar will cause the sufferer to undergo periods of deep depression and at other times manic "highs" during which they can have little control or recognition of their own behaviours. While the depressive spells might be assumed to herald suicidal intent, it's more likely that lack of motivation will allay such danger. Family members and professionals are more likely to recognise symptoms of depression and therefore, a support system to be prepared. Alternatively, "high" occurrences frequently result in hazardous behaviour and can lead to brushes with law enforcement, endangerment of others around them as well as the individual, impulsive spending and a tendency to desist medications (believing they are unnecessary as they feel "good"). For such individuals, the most dangerous time is usually the period between the "high" and "low" mood.
A patient with schizophrenia usually depends on continuous medication for roughly two weeks. The cumulative effect is required for stability. When symptoms are not particularly troublesome, it's common for a patient to desist the medication regimen.
Thus, even patients with enduring conditions who may "with the resources we have today" and every intention to escape the clutches of serious illness still become a suicide risk.
Whether a condition is physical or mental, making generalisations is a mistake. There are simply too many factors at play. Something that should always be taken into account is that the pill to cure a shitty life has not yet been created. As cheesy as it sounds, it is indeed true that "there is always someone worse off". But each of us has our own breaking point, beyond which the pain, be it physical or mental, becomes intolerable. It's easy to make assumptions such as "they don't want to try to get better" or that they are "selfish" until it's us who finds themselves glaring into the abyss.

 

[BlazingBob]

Not true at least not for me.

 

[sanction]

I definitely disagree, but don't want to sound rude, so not going into too much details. In short, I support CTB under reasonable circumstances, whether its physical or mental. Just that unfortunately the ratio of people having good lives, versus shit lives, the shit lives is just a much bigger percentage, to a point people don't even want to accept this logic anymore because the truth hurts, and then just overcomplicate this. The answer is actually pretty simple

This world is honestly much better to not even exist in the first place to begin with. So by the time it even gets to debating under which angle, perspective, or point of view to justify which type of CTB is more acceptable.....

My honest opinion is, if there was simply a button to press, that could instantly blow up the Earth, then let's quickly press it so we can finally just get this shit over with for once and for all.... lol. But I know this is a unpopular opinion

 

[twatingthroughlife]

I had a conversation with my dad about suicidal people recently, and he said "I am for assisted-suicide, but only if that person has an physical illness that can't be cured, because when you have a mental illness it can easily and fast be cured with the resources that we have today. People who kill themselves don't want to get better and want to die without reason or even trying to get better."

I don't know what to think of that, it is so wrong but right at the same time.

What are your thoughts about this?

Some people don't get that we want to ctb because we DID TRY. We tried to get better more times than they could even start to imagine. I honestly just feel jealous of people who don't get it.

 

[Deleted member 65988]

The story only has one ending, and it isn't happily ever after. I do not see any point in postponing death for the mere chance at feeling good and being distracted for a little while.

Absolutely true.

 

[moondazed]

I had a conversation with my dad about suicidal people recently, and he said "I am for assisted-suicide, but only if that person has an physical illness that can't be cured, because when you have a mental illness it can easily and fast be cured with the resources that we have today. People who kill themselves don't want to get better and want to die without reason or even trying to get better."

I don't know what to think of that, it is so wrong but right at the same time.

What are your thoughts about this?

I mostly agree, and think people should exhaust their resources before catching the bus. I think a lot of people forget that mental illness sometimes cannot always be fixed, even with some of the modern wonders of medicine.

Material conditions, loneliness, money, resources, political issues, and more things completely outside of one's control often makes people suicidal. If we solved even some of these issues I imagine millions of people would be "cured" of their suicidal thoughts.

Oh, and of course, there are anti-life and anti-natalists who simply wish to not exist. I really struggle with understanding it, but they do exist and their experience is valid. It would be a hell of a life to completely loath the simple act of being, I can only imagine.

 

[cemetorium]

I hate it when people insist on all mental illness being easily treatable, or "cured". I have a chronic, life-long mental illness (schizotypal), and I've been depressed for 10 years or so. Something tells me I'll never truly get rid of my mental health issues, even with treatment, especially since I haven't had much luck finding any treatment that truly works for me.

 

[Install-Gentoo]

"when you have a mental illness it can easily and fast be cured with the resources that we have today."
I don't know what to think of that, it is so wrong but right at the same time.
What are your thoughts about this?

I think your dad needs to be given medically-induced schizophrenia, or to receive permanent brain damage in his motor functions. Then we'll see if that changes his opinions on the effectiveness of mental health treatment.
For a less drastic action, he should be given a free tour of a mental hospital and he should ask every patient what their illness is, what they've tried, and how long they've been affected. He should be sent to an autism research group and he should ask why they've given up on a cure, treatment, or prevention, and instead are focusing on making society deal with autistic people. He should be shown the permanent psychological differences in adults who were raised properly or seriously mistreated as a child.
Maybe then he would realize that mental problems aren't just something you heal within a week that people are just "too lazy" to do.

 

[SaffronSugar6]

I had a conversation with my dad about suicidal people recently, and he said "I am for assisted-suicide, but only if that person has an physical illness that can't be cured, because when you have a mental illness it can easily and fast be cured with the resources that we have today. People who kill themselves don't want to get better and want to die without reason or even trying to get better."

I don't know what to think of that, it is so wrong but right at the same time.

What are your thoughts about this?

I would have to say, it's simply not true that mental health issues are cured quickly and easily these days. I'm not sure where your father gets that idea. I am a medical professional and I promise you that it's not that easy. Psychiatric drugs have come a long way. They have helped many people effective at about 60%. Definitely a person can get lucky. Say a person has something like anxiety that their particular anxiety can be successfully treated with antidepressants and anxiolytics. Excellent! But, there are a lot of people that medication does not work for. Nobody wants to have schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Antipsychotic medications, don't work for everyone either. Sometimes medication itself can often make somebody's life unbearable.
There also things like horrible traumatic incidents. Like being raped or being in a horrible accident in which other people died or at war. There is no magic pill to obliterated that type of trauma. sometimes talking to a therapist once a week doesn't exactly wipe out memories either.
If it was true that somebody mentally ill could just take a pill and be all better forever, that would be great. But that is not how this planet works.
i'm sure your father is a lovely man, but he is a lovely man that has done absolutely zero research into psychiatric illnesses, actual treatments for them, or the state of psychiatric care in the world today.
I have spent decades trying to get over my trauma, and trying to cope with the new garbage life, throws at me. Therapy, medications, yoga, well-being retreats, prayer, more therapy, more meds, acupuncture, self-help books, seminars on being happy and about ever YouTube video on beating emotional pain that can-be-had.
I tried. I really did.

Why Psychotropic Drugs Don't Cure Mental Illness—But Should They?

While pharmacological treatments for psychiatric disorders have offered great promise and have provided clinically meaningful symptom relief these treatments have had less effect on altering the course of these disorders. Research has provided many new insights about the effects of different...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[bini]

Some people don't get that we want to ctb because we DID TRY. We tried to get better more times than they could even start to imagine. I honestly just feel jealous of people who don't get it.

EXACTLY.

 

[fallintotheshadows]

I don't really think I understand the people who believe that wishing to die is an illness or that everyone even wants to exist in the first place. In my case wanting to die feels like the only rational thing to wish for. The thought of permanently ceasing to exist comforts me and it makes sense to me wanting to prevent all future unnecessary suffering in this existence that is pointless and just causes harm.

The problem lies in existence rather than the thoughts of suicide and for me this way of thinking is having awareness rather than something to get "better" from.

I don't understand those who worship and value this futile existence so much to the point that they so delusionally want to deny people a right to die, a peaceful exit from this existence should be avaliable for everyone as after all we were all so cruelly burdened with the ability to exist in the first place.
People should be able to die when they want to, and it's not something for other people to decide that needs to be justified and needs to meet other people's suffering criteria.

The right to die is a human right, I don't see how death could ever be a bad thing anyway as nobody can suffer from not existing and we are all just going to die anyway, death is the most normal thing. All that is bad is ultimately as a result of existence.

The crazy part Is most places actually see suicide as legal but yet they make it so ridiculously hard to be able to even do it by giving no methods that are painless when there are methods out there that will give people like us a painless death. It would be so much easier

 

[voyager]

Something tells me that your dad is probably not suffering from a mental illness..., right?

No. With all due respect, but the problem with people like your dad is that while he supports the right to die for physical cases (which is good) he, and many others, only goes by what he can see, what he himself has experienced and perhaps worst of all is downplaying mental illness as a whole. When he says people just don't want to get better and could be easily cured in essence he's thinking "they're having a bad patch and just don't want to snap out of it". This is so wrong.

I've mentioned many times here that my life was supposedly great until I got these issues at 16. Yes, I really did love life and the memories kept me afloat for a long time after. Some here may thus assume I'm a freak, who was high on dopamine all the time. Not so. I wasn't maniacally laughing when one of our au pairs was trying to charge up the stairs attempting to bludgeon my great aunt to death with an iron bar and all that stood between them was my mum blocking the way, with me behind her, protecting us all. Must've been 7. There certainly were negative events, but they never broke me. These are things your father, amongst others, simply doesn't get. It's not necessarily everyday "outside" issues/events which affect one (although they too can often be the origin, think trauma, rape etc.), but mental illness goes straight to the core, shattering one's entire being. It's much more serious and vastly different from having a "temporary" bad patch which one could possibly get out of. Which is why so much advice and assertions are ultimately futile.

A lot of good arguments have been shelled out already, what I agreed with most though, apart from the obvious general right to die, was getting tired of trying time and time again, evaluating the illness and generalisations. Mental illness today is everything and nothing. All painted with the same brush. When you're a hammer everything is a nail. How many people here, or everywhere, do you think have had a CAT scan, as in actual visual determination and thereby evidence of the physical manifestation of their illness? Hardly any surely, and even if they did, that doesn't mean the "professionals" actually know how to deal with it. The brain is poorly understood and popping random medications is just scratching the surface for many. One of the main and most famous proponents of SSRIs admitted a few years ago that they don't actually know how they work, just that they do. What he failed to mention was "for some" or "temporarily". Well, when I was healthy I didn't need medications, nor was I having severe side effects from being so. But it's logical that SSRI and similar do, because in essence they don't understand the whole process, as in (physical) origin of the illness and medicational effects on the brain. Therefore, for a lot of people there simply is no cure.

Do agree with your father on thing though, have indeed given up - finally, after 25 years (now 30). The first seven were the worst and the last five a complete dismantling of my entire self. An event in 2018 made me lose an essential luster for life and question my whole existence. Basically, why am I still doing this to myself? Pain and suffering, physical and mental, for little to no joy. It's just not worth it anymore. Have had four psychiatric evaluations in my life. Some diagnosed things which were indeed fitting, but none of them ever essentially told me the same thing! Depression was the first, of course, followed by anxiety, social phobia and agoraphobia. Those are merely symptoms though. Also display autistic and even some schizophrenia simplex symptoms. My mind is not functioning properly, not like it used to. Personally, I really think it's physical brain damage.

Which is why the last psychiatrist in early 2019 probably hit the mark best when she said I should get a neuropsychiatric evaluation. She literally said to me that "she doesn't know what it is, but there is something", and in her report she wrote it was impossible to tell if I'd ever get better again. Finally, someone was humble enough and honest. But it's too late now. Am going on 50 and my health is in ruins, the seen can't be unseen and don't really like this world anymore, it has become a lot worse compared to the time I was happy. Want to get out, and doing it right and comfortable is essentially my last drive.