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KafkaF

Taking a break from the website.
Nov 18, 2023
450
I've somewhat alluded to this in a previous post, but I wanted to talk about it in a slightly different way here.

Obviously suicide is a societal taboo. And I don't agree with that. I think it is possible to make that choice in a rational and thoughtful way where you are quite justified in making it. However, I also think equally that's not always the case. Sometimes people do rush into it and if they hadn't done it, they could've lived long and happy lives. Or people do go through significant suffering, but could have been helped and gotten better. I think society can try to sort out which is which, and in a more compassionate society it should, but I also think ultimately it's hard. And really only the person can genuinely make that choice for themselves.

But I want to focus on a specific word here. And that word is "could." They "could have been helped and gotten better."

Because I think that word, really, has two different meanings in this context. And both are important.

There's the "could" in the sense that "if they hadn't killed themselves and had instead found the help they'd been looking for, or pressed on to recovery, etc. then they would have gotten better." This is simply about a person's life being in a position that was not hopeless at all. Where they, if they'd continued living, could have found their way out of that situation in practice. And would have.

But then there's another could. This is the "could" in the sense of "they could have been helped and gotten better if society gave them the help they needed." And this, I think, is a more important "could" here.

Because that first "could" is really only speculative. Don't get me wrong, it can be important in showing someone that there are good odds for them getting better. And that's important. But it either is or isn't the case, even if we don't know which is which beforehand.

But the second "could" is one that society very, very easily could change if it wanted to. There are so many people who are suicidal, for example, in large part because of money. They cannot afford their house. Their job is destroying them mentally, but they cannot take a break from it or they'll starve. They want to get mental health help, but they cannot afford to get that help. Stuff like this.

I remember one person who killed themselves in part because they could not get social housing.

And those are the real crimes, in my opinion. Those are the real tragedies. Because society is obviously an abstract idea. But these people's deaths are the equivalent of a group of people just standing by with indifference on their faces with a forklift as someone is crushed underneath a car.

Society "cares" enough about the issue of suicide to try to prevent people from jumping off things by putting up nets, or to stop people from buying things that can kill them, or to section people who they think are going to kill themselves. And then (at least in places like America) they send you the bill for that sectioning.

This means they're more than willing to prevent people from ending it and continuing to suffer, but they are not at ALL willing to give up even one cent to make sure that those people don't have to suffer anymore. So they won't WANT to kill themselves.

Essentially, society wants to take away the choice because it's cheaper and easier than making someone not want to make that choice in the first place.

And that I think is truly disgusting.

In my mind you can hold one of two perspectives: You can either say that these people should be allowed to do whatever they want and it's nobody else's business, at which point you should not section them or put up nets, or you can come at it from a place of empathy. And you can take the position that we are all in this together and we should all help each other, at which point sure put up the nets but also make sure that people suffering don't have to suffer anymore and make sure that if there really is no way to end their suffering except death, that is also something that people will be helped with.

One is a perspective of "I don't care, people do as they want" and applies that consistently. The other is a perspective of "I do care, and I want to help people" and applies that consistently.

Instead society seems to largely take a third perspective of maximum suffering. Where people are prevented from dying, but also not helped to live. Not unless they pay for it, anyway, which many people can't. It's essentially a perspective of "I do care, but only when I don't have to make any sacrifices at all, otherwise I don't care, no matter how much people suffer because of it."

People who are unambiguously pro-life in all circumstances, should at least recognise that they CHOOSE not to help people live either. Because they don't want to spend a cent on that. At least they should be honest with themselves about that.
 
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LittleCupcake

Experienced
Mar 14, 2024
205
Because capitalism, longs theres a profit to be made its good, which is obvs not very ethical. I do agree it would be better to have more vulnerable people jump the wait list for housing or at least have proper helplines instead of just locking people up in wards or told to just suck it up.
 
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KafkaF

Taking a break from the website.
Nov 18, 2023
450
Because capitalism, longs theres a profit to be made its good, which is obvs not very ethical. I do agree it would be better to have more vulnerable people jump the wait list for housing or at least have proper helplines instead of just locking people up in wards or told to just suck it up.
It's true.

The current system mainly serves a tiny portion of narcissists and psychopaths who don't care about the amount of human suffering it takes to get them their jet planes and their private superyachts and their 50.000 dollar suits.
 
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Forever Sleep

Earned it we have...
May 4, 2022
9,867
I agree that people should be offered help and that that help should be sufficiently effective. I'd also agree that it's likely possible for someone to CTB during a psychotic episode.

How are we to tell when someone's the other side of the bridge railings, whether they are off their face on drugs, having a psychotic break and acting impulsively or whether this is a well thought out decision? Clearly- we can't tell so- I think it's almost inevitable someone would try to stop them if they could. It's what happens after that I take more issue with. Involuntary confinement in psyche wards, involuntary administration of drugs etc.

But the whole: 'They could get better' can be problematic. A very clever friend of mine had parents who wanted them to become a medical doctor. They almost certainly could have become a doctor but they wanted to study maths. They had the intelligence to do either. Their family forced them into medicine. They were so miserable that I think they finally relented that they could switch to study maths.

But what I'm saying is- just because you 'can' or 'could' do something- doesn't mean you should. How much of this is what society (including our families) wants of us/from us and, how much is what we actually want? Does society or even our parents/families have the right to insist we stay alive?

I guess the issue is- we don't know the future but it's us that has to go through the process of getting there to find out. Some people simply don't want to do that! Isn't that a fair enough decision? We don't all have the desire to climb Everest even though mountaineers may tell us the view makes it worth it.

Besides, I find it unlikely they woke up that very morning feeling suicidal. They've more than likely already been on the rollercoaster of highs and lows for a while- that's life. At what age do we know ourselves and our life to know enough what we're willing to put up with? What reward will be enough for the effort we'll need to put in to get it? Why would other people know more about what it's like to be us than us?

Especially if that person has no interest in their future. How much effort are they really going to put in if they don't want it? I think it has to be a talk with that individual to see what they're still open to. Even here, there is a wide variety of people. Some who utterly reject even the notion of 'recovery'. They may even feel insulted by it. No point in keeping on pushing hope on them. They think it's all bullshit! Other people may appreciate the offer but feel like they've already tried the suggestions and they're simply at the end of their tether and then others who would actually be open to being advised and helped. I think it's important not to push stuff on people but ultimately- I don't think you can anyway. If someone wants to CTB that badly, I think they will.
 
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