Resource SN megathread

[IfHeDiesHeDies]

IMO you're exaggerating how much his opinion has changed. He still says that it's "relatively peaceful", and the way I understand it he is primarily talking about the unpleasantness associated with being aware of the death process rather than physical pain.

After all, he is comparing SN with what is well known to probably be the best substance available. Of course it's preferable to get a hold of the most effective and peaceful method if it can be done, but for many that is simply not possible. He is still very much recommending it for those who are unable to attain Nembutal.

All I am saying is, it is not euphoric as previously claimed and he is definitely not recommending it in the manner he did in his previous streams on the subject. And yes, there is definitely a lot of pain and vomiting involved through my experience in the ER( pls check my post history) and reports on the internet. Also, pls note that he said he has done many clinical trials on volunteers and only one case has been reported in the PPH- a elderly and frail person weighing 100lbs. Would you not think that there are more such monitored deaths in the PPH if death was so swift and relatively painless?

 

[windingdown]

All I am saying is, it is not euphoric as previously claimed and he is definitely not recommending it in the manner he did in his previous streams on the subject. And yes, there is definitely a lot of pain and vomiting involved through my experience in the ER( pls check my post history) and reports on the internet. Also, pls note that he said he has done many clinical trials on volunteers and only one case has been reported in the PPH- a elderly and frail person weighing 100lbs. Would you not think that there are more such monitored deaths in the PPH if death was so swift and relatively painless?

Two things to bear in mind re: pain and vomiting with SN are (1) the dose, and (2) the use of anti-emetics. As with the link of case reports I posted above (https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+757), many unpleasant symptoms may occur on accidental ingestion, or in general when the dose is large enough to cause illness, but not large enough to cause death (or death only some hours after ingestion).

If a person takes a good anti-emetic (Nitschke discusses this topic in the fb vid just after the SN discussion at 13:20), vomiting is probably not going to happen. If the dose is large enough, and it is not vomited out, then death should transpire without the onset of all manner of unpleasant or painful symptoms.

Just some thoughts based on my research.

 

[Chinaski]

Have there been many successful passages with SN as the agent? A scan of google doesn't reveal many to be honest, I'm considering this as a budget alternative if all other means fail and am concerned that it can be too readily backed out of.

 

[OfficerK]

All I am saying is, it is not euphoric as previously claimed and he is definitely not recommending it in the manner he did in his previous streams on the subject. And yes, there is definitely a lot of pain and vomiting involved through my experience in the ER( pls check my post history) and reports on the internet. Also, pls note that he said he has done many clinical trials on volunteers and only one case has been reported in the PPH- a elderly and frail person weighing 100lbs. Would you not think that there are more such monitored deaths in the PPH if death was so swift and relatively painless?

Not necessarily, no. I'm fairly certain that the other chapters don't contain a long list of trial reports. The example that is given is likely only there to give an idea of how the process would look like. After all, the target audience is a wide variety of ill people who are looking to find the information they need to kill themselves; being clear and concise is prioritized.

If I were to guess I'd say that it's either a randomly selected trial, or the one that they deemed to be representative of the other ones (undergone on sick and/or elderly people).

 

[IfHeDiesHeDies]

Not necessarily, no. I'm fairly certain that the other chapters don't contain a long list of trial reports. The example that is given is likely only there to give an idea of how the process would look like. After all, the target audience is a wide variety of ill people who are looking to find the information they need to kill themselves; being clear and concise is prioritized.

If I were to guess I'd say that it's either a randomly selected trial, or the one that they deemed to be representative of the other ones (undergone on sick and/or elderly people).

I don't know whether you are a member of the Exit Forum, the reason Nitschke is documenting ONE clinical death only for Sodium Nitrite is because a lot of people on the forum are questioning the peacefulness of the method, so he just chose the best case scenario in an effort to please the masses. You don't see any other clinical trials on any other method in the PPH. Further, if he has more favourable findings on his other clinical trials re SN, it would be easy and more meaningful to summarise all the findings in a table instead of just giving account of one monitored death.

 

[OfficerK]

I don't know whether you are a member of the Exit Forum, the reason Nitschke is documenting ONE clinical death only for Sodium Nitrite is because a lot of people on the forum are questioning the peacefulness of the method, so he just chose the best case scenario in an effort to please the masses. You don't see any other clinical trials on any other method in the PPH. Further, if he has more favourable findings on his other clinical trials re SN, it would be easy and more meaningful to summarise all the findings in a table instead of just giving account of one monitored death.

If that's the case then you might be right. I can't say as I don't have access to the Exit forums.

 

[IfHeDiesHeDies]

Two things to bear in mind re: pain and vomiting with SN are (1) the dose, and (2) the use of anti-emetics. As with the link of case reports I posted above (https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+757), many unpleasant symptoms may occur on accidental ingestion, or in general when the dose is large enough to cause illness, but not large enough to cause death (or death only some hours after ingestion).

If a person takes a good anti-emetic (Nitschke discusses this topic in the fb vid just after the SN discussion at 13:20), vomiting is probably not going to happen. If the dose is large enough, and it is not vomited out, then death should transpire without the onset of all manner of unpleasant or painful symptoms.

Just some thoughts based on my research.

I agree that the reactions from ingesting SN is dose sensitive but I have yet to come across a case ( save for the one in the PPH) where death is painless and quick and in the majority of cases, violent vomiting is commonplace.

So what is the correct dose? According to Nitschke, a dose of 15g, vomiting is unlikely and no anti-emetic is needed but you can take them if you so wish. It is also likely to be painless. Is that the right dose for everyone irrespective of size, age and general physical health?

As a side note, this is not my method but i have a particular interest in this as i see people are being misled into thinking that this is peaceful and quick.

 

[windingdown]

I agree that the reactions from ingesting SN is dose sensitive but I have yet to come across a case ( save for the one in the PPH) where death is painless and quick and in the majority of cases, violent vomiting is commonplace.

So what is the correct dose? According to Nitschke, a dose of 15g, vomiting is unlikely and no anti-emetic is needed but you can take them if you so wish. It is also likely to be painless. Is that the right dose for everyone irrespective of size, age and general physical health?

As a side note, this is not my method but i have a particular interest in this as i see people are being misled into thinking that this is peaceful and quick.

As far as dose, I've come across this info:

It is a powerful drug; the median lethal dose of oral sodium nitrite is 71 mg/kg of body weight in humans.
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...odium-nitrite-2157-7145.1000262.php?aid=36065

This would make 4g a lethal dose for me, personally.

The lowest acute oral lethal dose of nitrite reported for man varied from 27 to 255 mg/kg, in which the lowest figures applied for children and elderly people.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+757

The high end of that, 255 mg/kg, makes 14-15g a probably highly lethal dose for me as a 56 kg young healthy female.

 

[IfHeDiesHeDies]

As far as dose, I've come across this info:

It is a powerful drug; the median lethal dose of oral sodium nitrite is 71 mg/kg of body weight in humans.
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...odium-nitrite-2157-7145.1000262.php?aid=36065

This would make 4g a lethal dose for me, personally.

The lowest acute oral lethal dose of nitrite reported for man varied from 27 to 255 mg/kg, in which the lowest figures applied for children and elderly people.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+757

The high end of that, 255 mg/kg, makes 14-15g a probably highly lethal dose for me as a 56 kg young healthy female.

Thanks for that. But why would the PPH keep updosing their recommended dosage? What would happen to someone who takes a hero dose? Obviously the dose required for a slim young and healthy female would be different from a frail elderly person or a strong, young male weighing over 80kg? So why is 15g recommended as an universal dose for everyone? Remember only several months ago, PPH recommended 10g. That's a 50% jump.

 

[windingdown]

Thanks for that. But why would the PPH keep updosing their recommended dosage? What would happen to someone who takes a hero dose? Obviously the dose required for a slim young and healthy female would be different from a frail elderly person or a strong, young male weighing over 80kg? So why is 15g recommended as an universal dose for everyone? Remember only several months ago, PPH recommended 10g. That's a 50% jump.

I agree that there should be better logic behind it. Another study I found on Google said between 2-3g is a lethal dose. I think, based on the above numbers, 10g would be lethal for most people. 15g just provides extra safety - especially given people come in all ages, sizes, and levels of health.

I understand that Exit International has an ongoing research program going, where they are collecting and evaluating studies, and gathering case reports about, particular methods. SN is a relatively new one for them, and they have an active research effort going on in relation to this. Nitschke discusses this in both the videos above, and I also read about it in an EI document somewhere. So they are amending their recommendations as they gather new evidence about different methods. Eg switching from sodium bicarbonate to increase stomach pH, to Tagamet. I suspect their initial recommendations are still solid/effective, but that updates simply reflect improvements in effectiveness (eg shaving minutes off of time to unconsciousness).

Interestingly, the page below notes that people taking cimeditine (Tagamet) are particularly high risk when it comes to SN ingestion. So that rec seems to be quite on target.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+757

 

[Marystevenson1001]

I agree that the reactions from ingesting SN is dose sensitive but I have yet to come across a case ( save for the one in the PPH) where death is painless and quick and in the majority of cases, violent vomiting is commonplace.

So what is the correct dose? According to Nitschke, a dose of 15g, vomiting is unlikely and no anti-emetic is needed but you can take them if you so wish. QUOTE]

How many tablespoons is 15g?

 

[Marystevenson1001]

Sorry how many tablespoons is 15g? Anyone know how to convert that?

 

[windingdown]

Sorry how many tablespoons is 15g? Anyone know how to convert that?

Using regular salt as the substance, I get these measurements:
https://www.calculateme.com/recipe/15-grams-of-salt

 

[Arak]

Twitter: https://twitter.com/philipnitschke/status/1002853175920156672

'Exit #Euthanasia LiveStream Q&A Sun 3rd @ 5pm comes live from Berlin, Germany. Topic: The June 2018 @PeacefulPill update: New info on the Aust pig poison, sodium nitrite, Is this the "Poor Person's Peaceful Pill"? (the PPPP) ..and more on sodium azide (AKA 'Dutch Middel X')'
I'm not on Twitter. If anything new comes from this, would someone update us ? Obviously, in case someone wants to watch.

 

[Chinaski]

Twitter: https://twitter.com/philipnitschke/status/1002853175920156672

'Exit #Euthanasia LiveStream Q&A Sun 3rd @ 5pm comes live from Berlin, Germany. Topic: The June 2018 @PeacefulPill update: New info on the Aust pig poison, sodium nitrite, Is this the "Poor Person's Peaceful Pill"? (the PPPP) ..and more on sodium azide (AKA 'Dutch Middel X')'
I'm not on Twitter. If anything new comes from this, would someone update us ? Obviously, in case someone wants to watch.

It's from July, been and gone.

 

[Arak]

As far as dose, I've come across this info:

It is a powerful drug; the median lethal dose of oral sodium nitrite is 71 mg/kg of body weight in humans.
https://www.omicsonline.org/open-ac...odium-nitrite-2157-7145.1000262.php?aid=36065

This would make 4g a lethal dose for me, personally.

The lowest acute oral lethal dose of nitrite reported for man varied from 27 to 255 mg/kg, in which the lowest figures applied for children and elderly people.
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+757

The high end of that, 255 mg/kg, makes 14-15g a probably highly lethal dose for me as a 56 kg young healthy female.

Don't forget the 'median'.

 

[Arak]

It's from July, been and gone.

Does anyone know what he 'said' ?

 

[Chinaski]

Well, if the topic was the PPeH update, l expect all the vital info re SN will be in there and he was just talking around it, though l too would be interested in what he said in terms of his degree of enthusiasm for SN as an agent.

 

[Arak]

So what did that Facebook vid say ? Painful or not ? Not a member of facebook.

In a way it's all relative, if you're 85 years old, in extreme pain the additional pain of SN may not feel like much ...

@Duqu , dying from lack of oxygen without suffering ?

I just read a bit online. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/criem/2016/9013816/

'A 28-year-old man was brought to our emergency department because of transient loss of consciousness and cyanosis.'
'A blood test revealed a methemoglobin level of 92.5%.'
'and he could recall ingesting approximately 15 g sodium nitrite about 1 hour before he was brought to our hospital.'
'The patient was discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment. Conclusion. Severe methemoglobinemia may be fatal. Therefore, accurate diagnosis of methemoglobinemia is very important so that treatment can be started as soon as possible.''
'Although methemoglobin levels of >70% are generally fatal, patients with methemoglobin levels of up to 94% have survived [1]. Sodium nitrite intoxication is a common cause of severe methemoglobinemia; however, only one suicidal case has been reported [2].'

Odds ?

Suicidal behavior is not that difficult, sometimes it's a lot harder to die.

 

[Chinaski]

Suicidal behavior is not that difficult, sometimes it's a lot harder to die.

Yeah, this would be a big problem with SN, having to fight the urge to ring the ED due to a stomach cramp or headache which may lead you to believe the method is failing.

 

[Arak]

@Chinisaki,

Depends on how fast one dies ...many people could hold out 15 minutes of serious suffering. But more than an hour ?

 

[windingdown]

I finally got my Tagamet (cimetidine) today! It cost $12 ($10 with a coupon) OTC in the US. Now I have everything :-)

 

[Arak]

A few points that makes this look less pretty ... I know some of this SN stuff is all over the forum. I have taken a few liberties with sources. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically, sodium nitrate poisoning is poisoning by nitrite poisoning.

https://www.symptoma.com/en/info/nitrite-poisoning

Lack of oxygen is the cause of death.

https://www.spinalcord.com/blog/what-happens-after-a-lack-of-oxygen-to-the-brain

I guess this is about complete oxygen deprivation.

Between 30-180 seconds of oxygen deprivation, you may lose consciousness.

• At the one-minute mark, brain cells begin dying.
  
  
• At three minutes, neurons suffer more extensive damage, and lasting brain damage becomes more likely.
  
  
• At five minutes, death becomes imminent.
  
  
• At 10 minutes, even if the brain remains alive, a coma and lasting brain damage are almost inevitable.
  
  
• At 15 minutes, survival becomes nearly impossible.
  

Several: https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search2/f?./temp/~PsiZ8r:3


Onset of action appears not to be quick, not always !

Possibly liver, kidney damage. Others ? Cause: hypoxia or nitrite poisoning.

ExitActBC.pdf

Excerpt '

Absorbtion and toxicity of the salt can be enhanced by raising the gastric pH by taking some sodium bicarbonate prior to the nitrite drink. ' True or not ?


Sodium azide, mostly unrelatedby in the same pdf: 'is more toxic that nitrite, and must be handled with more care. It finds use as a laboratory bacteriostatic and its past use in car airbags mean that it can be readily sourced on the internet with few restriction in its purchase. A few grams of azide dissolved in water when drunk will bring about rapid death. The salt causes cellular death by binding to cytochrome enzyme; cells with the highest oxygen needs are most vulnerable (eg heart and brain). '

 

[Arak]

It seems like an awful way to die, possibly really bad if you can get help in time. A few hours may be enough. Maybe something that totally knocks you out will help, but it would likely have to be very strong. Pentobarbital ?

 

[Duqu]

So what did that Facebook vid say ? Painful or not ? Not a member of facebook.

In a way it's all relative, if you're 85 years old, in extreme pain the additional pain of SN may not feel like much ...

@Duqu , dying from lack of oxygen without suffering ?

I just read a bit online. https://www.hindawi.com/journals/criem/2016/9013816/

'A 28-year-old man was brought to our emergency department because of transient loss of consciousness and cyanosis.'
'A blood test revealed a methemoglobin level of 92.5%.'
'and he could recall ingesting approximately 15 g sodium nitrite about 1 hour before he was brought to our hospital.'
'The patient was discharged on day 7 without neurologic impairment. Conclusion. Severe methemoglobinemia may be fatal. Therefore, accurate diagnosis of methemoglobinemia is very important so that treatment can be started as soon as possible.''
'Although methemoglobin levels of >70% are generally fatal, patients with methemoglobin levels of up to 94% have survived [1]. Sodium nitrite intoxication is a common cause of severe methemoglobinemia; however, only one suicidal case has been reported [2].'

Odds ?

Suicidal behavior is not that difficult, sometimes it's a lot harder to die.

It's because there is an antidote for methemoglobinemia. It's called Methylene blue and if they find out you took the SN they will use it on you and in all likelihood "save" you.

ETA that's why it's imperative you not be found for some time AND/OR that the way you have attempted to CTB isn't obvious. No bottle of SN for example, maybe some bottles of opioids and they'll inject you with that narcan stuff which obviously will do zilch as you haven't OD'd on opioids. I know methemogloginemia is farily obvious to a doctor from the look of you (someone posted above me what nitrite poisoning looks like lin the body) but like I said: just don't get found.

 

[Arak]

@Duqu ,

That seems rational. But if it is taking a long time your survival instinct may kick in (likely) and you'll ask for help.
A remote, uninhabited Island may help ... Other very remote areas will help too ... Good luck with that in most of Western Europe ... helps if you can travel.

 

[OfficerK]

A few points that makes this look less pretty ... I know some of this SN stuff is all over the forum. I have taken a few liberties with sources. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Basically, sodium nitrate poisoning is poisoning by nitrite poisoning.

https://www.symptoma.com/en/info/nitrite-poisoning

Lack of oxygen is the cause of death.

https://www.spinalcord.com/blog/what-happens-after-a-lack-of-oxygen-to-the-brain

I guess this is about complete oxygen deprivation.

Between 30-180 seconds of oxygen deprivation, you may lose consciousness.

• At the one-minute mark, brain cells begin dying.
  
  
• At three minutes, neurons suffer more extensive damage, and lasting brain damage becomes more likely.
  
  
• At five minutes, death becomes imminent.
  
  
• At 10 minutes, even if the brain remains alive, a coma and lasting brain damage are almost inevitable.
  
  
• At 15 minutes, survival becomes nearly impossible.

Several: https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search2/f?./temp/~PsiZ8r:3


Onset of action appears not to be quick, not always !

Possibly liver, kidney damage. Others ? Cause: hypoxia or nitrite poisoning.

ExitActBC.pdf

Excerpt '

Absorbtion and toxicity of the salt can be enhanced by raising the gastric pH by taking some sodium bicarbonate prior to the nitrite drink. ' True or not ?


Sodium azide, mostly unrelatedby in the same pdf: 'is more toxic that nitrite, and must be handled with more care. It finds use as a laboratory bacteriostatic and its past use in car airbags mean that it can be readily sourced on the internet with few restriction in its purchase. A few grams of azide dissolved in water when drunk will bring about rapid death. The salt causes cellular death by binding to cytochrome enzyme; cells with the highest oxygen needs are most vulnerable (eg heart and brain). '

Yes, it's pretty well established that oxygen deprivation will cause brain damage if detected too early. The same goes for nembutal and hanging. Any such method requires that you are able to remain undetected for several hours. That being said, I have yet to find a case where someone received serious brain damage, which might (don't take my uneducated word for it) indicate that you'll fall unconscious fairly early on.

I'm pretty sure that's it's been mentioned several times that the apparent major benefit to N is that you'll be put to sleep within minutes. With SN (and no tranquilizer) you will be aware that your brain is losing oxygen. I'd guess that this is at least an uncomfortable or unpleasant feeling, but i'm not sure whether it's painful. Nitscke doesn't seem to think it's that bad.

I recommend reading the previous posts in this and other related threads.

 

[Duqu]

@Duqu ,

That seems rational. But if it is taking a long time your survival instinct may kick in (likely) and you'll ask for help.
A remote, uninhabited Island may help ... Other very remote areas will help too ... Good luck with that in most of Western Europe ... helps if you can travel.

That's why I plan to knock myself out for the whole thing. :)

 

[Arak]

@Duqu

Unfortunately I have to deal with tolerance ... nembutal/pentobarbital plus very strong opiates might help ... former is impossible (?) to get.

 

[Arak]

Maybe a point to merging all these SN threads !

It appears that sometimes people survive without getting medical help. Cyanide would be better ...