Discussion Similarities Between Desire of Life and Company (or lack thereof)?

[wondering&wandering]

I'd like to address anyone interested in seeing and discussiny the similarities that I find between the nature of the following: (1) the pursuit of living/dying and (2) the journey of having friends/no-friends. I'll try to explain what I mean.

So, common patterns exist around us. Most obvious are physical shapes such as squares, circles, diamonds, etc; we find that we and nature itself create and use them all around. Less obvious patterns are the less tangible "shapes" (or concepts really) such as how history repeats itself, or how themes of love, hate, power, etc. proliferate each other's lives.

In the same way I've come to realize the interesting parallels between the struggle of life and the struggle of friendship.

Few people actually "want to die" for the sake of dying (a contentious point perhaps, but I maintain my stance). One may only realize the preference of death in light of the woes of life, and rarely because of life itself. At the very least, I believe there can be a certain level of agreement that suicidal people would like to to live if life's circumstances were fully enjoyable, as opposed to the often broken scale of pain and pleasure.

In the same sense, few people actually want to be alone. One may only realize the preference of solitude in light of the woes of interpersonal relationships.

Let's put down some statements I believe: I want to live if it's a good life; I want to die if it's a bad life; I want a friend if our relationship is healthy; I want solitude if our relationship is toxic.

Seems simple enough then for us to determine how we want to live our life (friendful or friendless) or even if we want to bother to live a life. However, let's not forget our little friend: survival instinct (SI). SI ensures that our life is maintained in spite of determining life is bad and wanting to end it. And in the same sense, let's not forget our other little friend: social instinct (uh, idk, relationship instinct then: RI). RI ensures our mind is stimulated through social interactions in spite of determining those interactions are bad and wanting to avoid them.

So what happens? A vicious and seemingly contradictory cycle.

And what's my point? Well, nothing much. Just sharing my thoughts and realizing that: (1) I want to die because of my mental anguish but won't because of SI, so I'll continue to live, struggle, and try to make something out of this, and (2) that I want solitude because I'm a mentally ill parasite who is so immature that I'd hurt people but won't stop because of RI, so I'll continue hurting people until I run out of tries, grow up, or die.

Wow, so fascinating. Wow, so devastating. Imma go back and daydream.

Oh yeah, and I'd be genuinly interested in anyone else's thoughts on this. Do you agree or disagree? Thoughts?

 

[Kinasea]

Ok so first off, i might be dumb and say something kinda unrelated to your post because it was a little difficult for me to understand. But i did just want to say that i somewhat disagree with the point made that people dont "want to die for the sake of dying".

Now maybe im misinterpreting this, and im sure that there are plenty of people who only really wanna die because of their problems or something thats making life bad, but id also say there are those who want to die no matter what. Me for example, even if all my problems were solved and i was "happy" i would still desire death, and there was actually a point where i had no responsibilities (besides school) good grades, and a group of good friends plus a girlfriend who i was very close with. Quite literally as happy as you could be. And although it did alleviate some of the feelings i still wanted to die all the same.

When it comes to the RI part i cant really understand it, so no comment. Also this is my first post so i kinda just wanted to have a little bit of a discussion and express some of my thoughts even if it was a little off topic

 

[escape_from_hell]

There are parallels from an overall survival perspective. SI is the more acute and direct sense, and it runs deep enough that there is like some part deep inside us that fights even our most intellectual and autonomous decisions, like it monitors and forbids even. RI in this case is definitely real, and many say they prefer solitude...I am an extreme introvert, used to love solo walks, weeklong nature retreat alone, hate small talk, all that stuff, but I've been isolated for years now and I can say that there are degrees of this. Isolation is also coming as a constant signal; everywhere you go dirty looks, poor treatment etc, which makes you present yourself as less cool and joyful and begets more poor treatment.

The parallel is that being part of a community presumably meant better survival odds. So there is likely some overlap in how these feelings/systems work, although it is not as fundamental as SI which must be one of the most ancient and intense systems (how laughable that people call suicide cowardly...literally fighting the very fundamental ancient beast that kickstarted this hell keeping all organisms slaving...cowardly, right?) and probably has many redundancies--such as its ability to stop conscious decisions and physical acts like pulling a trigger that one may otherwise decide upon.

There are probably some parallels with poor relationships with food, health etc. but it gets vague. Hunger drive is a whole separate thing. Also, the avoidance or maladaptation of relationships, strange food habits, and so on, is partly driven by poor information quality. We rarely get good feedback on what is ideal diet (just search the internet, it's 2024 and we have spacecraft but no clue what food is--is it carbs, fat, protein, which is good or evil? you'll find 'scientific' explications and many tomes of advice on social media on what is and is not to be consumed). Also, relationships are extremely complex. Was that smile fake? Was it hostile? Authentic and welcoming? This might be related to everyone suddenly having autism. People also extensively practice manipulation, lying, persona maintenance etc, their own mechanisms for fighting their way to social power (power to be at the top, integrated in a positive way, or even freedom to be alone or not at will) -- so the whole pool is extremely muddy and difficult to navigate.

Isolating is also a sort of suicide because everyone hates loners. No, not the "hot emo" person that wrote a sad song on instagramtube with a bajillion likes. But a real person who is totally out of the loop is absolutely revolting and poisonous to be near.

 

[wondering&wandering]

Ok so first off, i might be dumb and say something kinda unrelated to your post because it was a little difficult for me to understand. But i did just want to say that i somewhat disagree with the point made that people dont "want to die for the sake of dying".

You're all good, haha. I tried to make sense, but I get it if it didn't. Thanks for replying in general.

Now maybe im misinterpreting this, and im sure that there are plenty of people who only really wanna die because of their problems or something thats making life bad, but id also say there are those who want to die no matter what. Me for example, even if all my problems were solved and i was "happy" i would still desire death, and there was actually a point where i had no responsibilities (besides school) good grades, and a group of good friends plus a girlfriend who i was very close with. Quite literally as happy as you could be. And although it did alleviate some of the feelings i still wanted to die all the same.

No yeah, I think you interpreted me correctly. So then, that's interesting you'd desire death even if everything was perfect (at least, that's what I was getting at). Or I guess there's a difference then between a perfect life and a life that now becomes perfect, right? Meaning a perfect life is a life that knows no sorrow and never did know sorrow, whereas a now perfect life is one that definitely suffered already but is now sewed up to being "perfect."

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you mean to say you desire death even if your life were to become perfectly happy (which I'm guessing is because it's a heavy burden to carry the very real trauma that exists in your mind now and forever more; of course, correct me if there's a different reason). And so, if life was perfect from the beginning, do you think you'd desire death? Or maybe it'd just be impossible for anyone to desire death if life was just that perfect? Idk.

Also, I suppose it's hard to properly define perfect life because right now I was just thinking that a perfect life isn't one of immortality, but then I suppose that means the fear of death would likely exist in that "perfect" life rendering it not perfect. Idk. Sorry for trying to make sense and just being more confusing.

When it comes to the RI part i cant really understand it, so no comment. Also this is my first post so i kinda just wanted to have a little bit of a discussion and express some of my thoughts even if it was a little off topic

No worries at all. Glad to have you be a part of this discussion!

And in case you wanted me to try to explain the RI, I basically mean that social instinct that we have as social creatures. Like, I can imagine RI is what is pulling us towards speaking to each other in some regard. Or at least, I am happy that my post/existence is being acknowledged, and also am able to interact with someone (you). Though I do know some people say they wish people could not perceive their existence, which I wonder if one would consider that abnormal as opposed to something people can be born feeling.

The parallel is that being part of a community presumably meant better survival odds.

Thanks for your response! And that's actually interesting. I didn't think of it quite like that, but I think you're right.

There are probably some parallels with poor relationships with food, health etc. but it gets vague. Hunger drive is a whole separate thing. Also, the avoidance or maladaptation of relationships, strange food habits, and so on, is partly driven by poor information quality. We rarely get good feedback on what is ideal diet (just search the internet, it's 2024 and we have spacecraft but no clue what food is--is it carbs, fat, protein, which is good or evil? you'll find 'scientific' explications and many tomes of advice on social media on what is and is not to be consumed). Also, relationships are extremely complex. Was that smile fake? Was it hostile? Authentic and welcoming? This might be related to everyone suddenly having autism. People also extensively practice manipulation, lying, persona maintenance etc, their own mechanisms for fighting their way to social power (power to be at the top, integrated in a positive way, or even freedom to be alone or not at will) -- so the whole pool is extremely muddy and difficult to navigate.

I think I see what you're saying. So, there are parallels seen in the complexities of relationships as in the complexities of food/health, right?

isolating is also a sort of suicide because everyone hates loners. No, not the "hot emo" person that wrote a sad song on instagramtube with a bajillion likes. But a real person who is totally out of the loop is absolutely revolting and poisonous to be near.

I see what you mean and agree to some extent. Although, I wouldn't emphasize that loners are hated because they turn revolting for simply being out of the loop. Rather, no one likes loners because they make one feel uncomfortable. They don't know the loner and are unable to know loner due to the loner giving no social signals (verbal or non-verbal) that indicate anything other than leave me alone. Hence, an unapproached and unapproachable loner.

 

[Forever Sleep]

Hmmm, but we can't cherry pick the good bits out of life or relationships. We simply don't have that much control. Sure, people may well accept life if they have good health, wealth, good people around them. Basically- they can comfortably fulfil their needs. It's when we can't do those things that we become unhappy. Then, it's a struggle.

Then, it becomes: What can we do to improve our circumstances? Can we realistically fix our health problems? Can we realistically get a well enough paying job to sustain a reasonable lifestyle? Can we only have people in our lives that are kind and supportive to us? What if we grew up with abusive family members? Dump them?

Like- I sort of get it. The whole- 'No- you don't really want to die. You just want the pain to stop.' But- I think we have to be realistic about it- can we get the pain to stop?

It's like saying- You like chocolate right? So- eat it all day long if it will make you happy. But- it won't only do that- it will also pile on the pounds, put you at higher risk of diabetes and make you vomit eventually.

Saying that people would like life if it was good is obvious but unrealistic. Life comes with a whole lot of inescapable bad things too. Then it becomes how well we are able to cope with the bad things. Whether they outnumber the good. How we view good and bad. Coping mechanisms basically.

Because we can't change the fundamental bad things about life! We can't stop ourselves or others getting sick and dying. We can't fully control how others treat us. We don't have full control over our destinies.

Not much truth in saying- cancer isn't all that bad. Homelessness has it's positives. Bereavement is fun. An earthquake/ war/ sexual assault is nothing to fret about. Some things, most people would struggle with. What's the point in telling someone that is in chronic incurable pain that they wouldn't want to die if they weren't in so much pain- if you can't stop that pain?!! It's like saying to a zebra being eaten- you might prefer life if you were a lion. But, they're not- they're a zebra!

I get it in terms of an argument against promortalism. As in- my life is bad, some other people are struggling too so- let's write off all life! That isn't fair to people who do enjoy life. But, I think to say that every life can be reformed into something blissful is unrealistic and also belittles and disregards people who are suffering with no real hope of stopping it.

Same goes for relationships. Sure- we'd possibly all be social butterflies if everyone around us was kind. If no one ever bullied us, used us, abandoned us. How are you going to ensure the people you meet treat you kindly? You could get them to sign a legally binding contract. That's marriage! You promise to respect your partner, honour them, love them for as long as you both shall live, remain faithful to them. And- how does that work out for people? 42% of marriages (in the UK at least) end in divorce!

Again- other people aren't something we can control. We can't even entirely predict how someone will turn out. Plus, if your family members were abusive- you're already at a disadvantage. Again, it's simply unrealistic to say everything would be all right if everyone was nice to each other because- they're not and maybe never will be.

It's a bit like saying- I wouldn't mind living in a fairy tale but- we don't. We live in this world with its own (fairly harsh) parameters. All we can do is try and mitigate the bad stuff that does come our way but- when we can't do that- suicide may well look like the more appealing option as an end to suffering because we've exhausted our means of dealing with it.