setting up an iv or iv push?

[Rose57]

I'd really like to learn how to set up an iv or inject different things (prp to try to heal the injury making me so suicidal and nembutal/sn to ensure a quick death when the time comes to ctb) into the vein. I need help finding all the needles, iv push, iv bag, etc. Does anyone here know how to start an iv and wouldn't mind helping? What items do I need to do the iv or iv push? And how much practice will it take to learn how to insert the needle into the vein? Thank you so much for any advice!

 

[laserfocus111]

The materials can be obtained online.

For practicing iv access you'll need a tourniquet, cannula and some alcohol swipes. You may want a stopper as well to prevent the blood from flowing freely from the cannula.

To inject stuff you'll need either a syringe. I like the 20 ml ones because you can store alot of stuff. Alternatively you can get an iv bag to pump your meds into. You'll also need a drip line.


See if you can source for things like Introcan, intrafix PrimeLine, luer lock plugs. You don't even have to go to the dark web. All can be legitimately obtained.

Cannulation tutorials are all over YouTube. It's like riding a bike. Many tutorials recommend going in at 45 degrees to the skin but from my experience I feel it's more like 10 degrees or less. From there it's about developing the feel of the vein.

Prp isn't magic.. You'll need a centrifuge and some blood containers for a start.

Practice makes perfect. It's going to be bloody but worth it.

 

[Aap]

I'd start with a syringe, as it is signifcantky easier to use a small bore needle than a cannula.

 

[enjolras]

If it helps. This US lab has also been involved with the capital punishment from afar.

https://www.akorn.com/documents/catalog/package_inserts/76478-501-50.pdf

With N, you probably have not enough time to inject the desired amount, so you should count on an IV bag instead of syringue, that continues after you pass out ?

With SN, aren't you going to burn in hell too soon ?

 

[laserfocus111]

I'd start with a syringe, as it is signifcantky easier to use a small bore needle than a cannula.

You've got a point. I've been doing this for so long that I find cannulation much easier.

Using a bag helps if you think you're going to pass out before the full dose enters your system. You got to consider if the drip line is going to dislodge in the event you are unconscious and you end up with a half assed job. If your agent is known to cause seizures you'd better prepare for that

 

[Aap]

Agree 100%
If one isn't familiar with IV injection, a cannula and bag is a must when it comes time. A fatal dose of N can't be given IM reliably. I would be hesitant to play with SN IV. All of the data points we have are from slow absorption from the gi tract.

 

[Rose57]

You've got a point. I've been doing this for so long that I find cannulation much easier.

Using a bag helps if you think you're going to pass out before the full dose enters your system. You got to consider if the drip line is going to dislodge in the event you are unconscious and you end up with a half assed job. If your agent is known to cause seizures you'd better prepare for that

Thank you so much for your response! It's been very helpful! I have 10 ml syringes that are 22g and insulin syringes that are 28 g. Can I practice drawing blood with them? I was thinking of ordering some vacutainer holders and vacutainer needles from vitality medical:
Here are the links:
https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-needle-holder.html

https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-eclipse-blood-collection-needle.html

Are these the correct products for drawing blood into vacutainer tubes that will be later spinned in the centrifuge?

 

[Aap]

Start with the insulin syringes...there will be a big learning curve moving from those to 22 gauge.

 

[Rose57]

Makes sense to start with the insulin syringes since they are smaller. Do I just pull back on the pludger to see if any blood comes out to know if I hit the vein properly?

 

[Aap]

Yes, but make sure you have watched videos first regarding how to do it. as someone mentioned a shallow angle is needed to avoid going through the vein. You might benefit from trying on a vein that allows you to use both hands. Clean the areas first and don't reuse.

 

[laserfocus111]

Thank you so much for your response! It's been very helpful! I have 10 ml syringes that are 22g and insulin syringes that are 28 g. Can I practice drawing blood with them? I was thinking of ordering some vacutainer holders and vacutainer needles from vitality medical:
Here are the links:
https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-needle-holder.html

https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-eclipse-blood-collection-needle.html

Are these the correct products for drawing blood into vacutainer tubes that will be later spinned in the centrifuge?

Hi the links are good enough for blood collection.

A few thoughts.

I have never used an insulin syringe to draw blood before and I'm not sure if it's possible. The diameter of the needle bore is very small and aspiration of a viscous fluid like blood becomes difficult. Does anyone else think so? Id try out aspirating from some water to try if it works..you'd probably need to pull the plunger all the way back for that little bit of fluid.

No problems with 22g. there'll usually be a flashback to tell you you're in the lumen of the vessel. You might want to advance a tiny bit more before aspiration.

Have you done your research on prp? If you're not using the citrate tube to prevent clotting you probably need to find your own anticoagulants. It's not as straightforward as trying to spin some blood and injecting it into a site.. There are prp kits available if you're a first timer. When you're ready you can modify the protocol with your own materials.

 

[Rose57]

Hi the links are good enough for blood collection.

A few thoughts.

I have never used an insulin syringe to draw blood before and I'm not sure if it's possible. The diameter of the needle bore is very small and aspiration of a viscous fluid like blood becomes difficult. Does anyone else think so? Id try out aspirating from some water to try if it works..you'd probably need to pull the plunger all the way back for that little bit of fluid.

No problems with 22g. there'll usually be a flashback to tell you you're in the lumen of the vessel. You might want to advance a tiny bit more before aspiration.

Have you done your research on prp? If you're not using the citrate tube to prevent clotting you probably need to find your own anticoagulants. It's not as straightforward as trying to spin some blood and injecting it into a site.. There are prp kits available if you're a first timer. When you're ready you can modify the protocol with your own materials.

I'll do some more research on whether an insulin syringe can draw blood or not. Thanks! Do I have to worry about blowing veins when I practice venipuncture? I read that it is best to work your way up the arm as you try to hit a vein because you can't inject medicines into a part of the vein that is downstream of the blown section of the vein or the medicine will infiltrate.

Also, is it possible to blow a vein so many times while learning how to hit a vein on yourself that the veins become permanently damaged to the point of not being able to inject anything into them anymore?

I'm planning to buy vacutainers with the citrate in it. You are very knowledgeable about prp. Have you received or given it before?

 

[Rose57]

Hi the links are good enough for blood collection.

A few thoughts.

I have never used an insulin syringe to draw blood before and I'm not sure if it's possible. The diameter of the needle bore is very small and aspiration of a viscous fluid like blood becomes difficult. Does anyone else think so? Id try out aspirating from some water to try if it works..you'd probably need to pull the plunger all the way back for that little bit of fluid.

No problems with 22g. there'll usually be a flashback to tell you you're in the lumen of the vessel. You might want to advance a tiny bit more before aspiration.

Have you done your research on prp? If you're not using the citrate tube to prevent clotting you probably need to find your own anticoagulants. It's not as straightforward as trying to spin some blood and injecting it into a site.. There are prp kits available if you're a first timer. When you're ready you can modify the protocol with your own materials.

Also, it may be easier to use a vein somewhere other than in the arm because it might be hard doing it with one hand. Where are other good areas to collect blood from easily? I've read the foot and neck are possibilities.

I realized it might be hard to use the vacutainer holder if I am doing it with one hand since I have to push the vacutainer tube into the holder which is directly connected to the needle . This movement would be hard to do smoothly with one hand and I might push the needle through the vein on accident. Does this blood collection set also work?

https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-safety-lok-blood-collection-set.html

The tubing would make it easier so that I could clumsily connect the vacutainer tube without worrying about moving the needle too much. Would I have to buy vacutainer tube holders to make it work? Or does the leur adapter connect directly to the vacutainer tubes?

Thank you so much! I've been trying to find answers to these questions on google but haven't found much good info yet. Your answers are more direct and helpful :)

 

[laserfocus111]

"I read that it is best to work your way up the arm as you try to hit a vein because you can't inject medicines into a part of the vein that is downstream of the blown section of the vein or the medicine will infiltrate. "

Theoretically yes it can. You might want to give the vein some time to heal up before trying a site downstream from the blown site. In reality I sometimes close an eye after about 15 mins.

=====================

"Also, is it possible to blow a vein so many times while learning how to hit a vein on yourself that the veins become permanently damaged to the point of not being able to inject anything into them anymore? "

Theoretically yes, the veins can become scarred and fibrotic with multiple punctures. What usually happens is that the vessel wall weakens and bulges out, making it easier for injection. I doubt you'll be doing so many punctures to reach that stage.

=================

"I realized it might be hard to use the vacutainer holder if I am doing it with one hand since I have to push the vacutainer tube into the holder which is directly connected to the needle . This movement would be hard to do smoothly with one hand and I might push the needle through the vein on accident. Does this blood collection set also work?"

Yes what you mentioned is very common in beginners. Yes, the butterfly needle you mentioned is better for starting out. Cons: this system depends on the pre-made vacuum from the vacutainer.

The alternative is to buy a normal butterfly needle like this and connect it to a syringe and pull the plunger once you see a flashback. Cons: This system is probably slightly harder to visualise a flashback as there is no existing vacuum.

1

It's like the piano.. gotta do it until you're perfect.

If you're just using the normal citrate tube to make prp it's still ok but I would consider that an imperfect solution. A Venezuelan doc once taught me how to make "third world" prp using that technqiue but that's beyond the scope of this forum.

 

[Rose57]

Great, thanks! You have been so helpful! :) Why do you think using the normal citrate tubes is an imperfect solution by the way?

I plan to buy vacutainer tube holders : https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-needle-holder.html

And this bd-vacutainer safety lok blood collection set with a 21 g needle: https://www.vitalitymedical.com/bd-vacutainer-safety-lok-blood-collection-set.html

Then I plan to administer prp with an iv push using 22g syringes that hold 10 ml. Does this all check out? Thanks again! Really appreciate it :)

 

[laserfocus111]

There are studies to show that the platelet concentration using home made techniques are roughly 2x compared to commercial kits that can increase the yield up to 10x.

I'm not sure why you need iv prp. Doesn't make sense if you are concentrating platelets and then releasing them back into the system. Prp is usually for musculoskeletal conditions or accelerated healing of wounds.

 

[Rose57]

Wow, what do the commercial kits do differently to yield 10x more?

I came across a study that treated a young boy with cerebral palsy using an iv of prp. Here is the link to the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4509427/

I'm trying to treat a brain injury and noise damage to my ears so I'm not sure where to inject the prp. So I figured an iv might be best for systemic effects. Would I have to inject saline solution into the vein before and after the iv push of prp?

Would you recommend injecting the prp somewhere specific?
I think the link I may have posted just now doesn't work so here is another one for the study: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26185982/

 

[laserfocus111]

The commercial kits typically have a separation gel that helps increase the yield.

Interesting case you highlighted. But I find it doesn't make sense if you're concentrating platelets and re introducing them back into the system (I.e. Reversing the concentration process) when the objective is to gather the platelet derived growth factors at one area. What is your exact diagnosis if I may ask?

 

[Rose57]

The symptom that is making me so suicidal is my hyperacusis which is extreme noise sensitivity. It started after a concussion and worsened due to noise damage. My ears always burn even when there is no noise. Do you think I should just inject it around the ears? Someone in a prp group told me that injections were high risk but didn't clarify why they were high risk. Can I overdo it by making too many prp injections? I am in so much pain. I can see myself doing prp injections every few days. Where are you located by the way?
Also, I am worried the centrifuge I use will overheat if I leave it on for 10 to fifteen minutes at a time. Someone told me the machine doesn't heat up if left on for five minutes at a time though. Would it be ok to spin the sample for five minutes then let it sit for 15 minutes and repeat spinning it another five minutes to complete the first hard spin? Then, breaking down the second hard spin into two five minute sessions as well? Is it ok to use the tubes that come with the centrifuge to complete the second hard spin in? And reuse them to make prp over and over again after washing them? Or do I need special one time use tubes? Thank you so much! You have no idea how much your help means to me :)

 

[laserfocus111]

I work in healthcare in East Asia. That's as much as I can say. I typically use prp for musculoskeletal conditions. As far as hyperacusis goes this is not my field of expertise and I am not familiar with the mechanism / pathology of your condition.

However I have some concerns regarding your plan.

1. Intravenous prp using home made methods is a sure way for sepsis and infective endocarditis to happen. I don't really think the vacutainer was designed to be used in this manner to begin with. I wouldn't trust the sterility of the tube despite it being labelled so. I also wouldn't trust anything that's not single use for intravenous or intramuscular purposes.

2. Injecting around the ears sounds like a great way to inadvertently damage important nerves and vessels around the region.

3. Repeated prp injections - no real consensus on this but most will do a repeat session every 3 to 4 weeks thereabouts.

4. Some protocols may ask for a second spin. Some spin for 5 to 10 mins. No real consensus here as different people use different kits /methods. It's hard to measure yields when the parameters are all over the place. There are studies done on comparing various commercial kits but they're usually industry sponsored. Your centrifuge doesn't sound very sturdy to me.. I never had to think about overheating.

Hope this helps

 

[Rose57]

It does help a lot. Where would you suggest injecting the prp?

 

[Rose57]

I've injected peptides around the ears before and had no issues. Do you mean it gets risky when pushing the needle deeper around the ears? Why would iv prp be more likely to cause an infection than injecting prp near the injury site?

 

[laserfocus111]

Seems like you've been experimenting quite a bit.

If you intend to use home made prp it's probably better to stick to IM due to sterility concerns. IV means potentially any pathogen gets a free pass around the systemic circulation.

Around the ears - Plenty of vessels and nerves you could potentially injure.

I am not familiar with the pathology and am unable to recommend you a treatment option unfortunately..I'm sure you've seen an ENT surgeon or neurologist already. What did he recommend?

 

[Rose57]

ENT and neurologist recommend nothing unfortunately. My only option is alternative treatment which they do not support due to the lack of studies.

I injected the peptides subcutaneously near the ear. Is there still a chance of injuring nerves or vessels whn injecting just beneath the skin around the ears? I'm thinking I might try that with prp.

When you inject something intramuscularly or subcutaneously, does it eventually enter the bloodstream?

 

[Rose57]

Also, would injecting prp around the ears be close enough to the ear to have an effect?

Edit: Just practiced venipuncture for the first time and hit the vein in the crook of my elbow on the first try. Blood gushed out in a stream as soon as I removed the needle getting blood everywhere though. There is now a small circular bruise at insertion site. Should I be concerned? Why did the blood gush out so violently after I removed the needle? Was it because I didn't take off the tourniquet before I removed the needle?

Found this study talking about systemic effects after injecting PRP:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23211708/

Does this mean injections close to the ear may have an effect on the brain and inner ear?

So sorry for all the questions!

 

[laserfocus111]

Many questions so I'll go one by one. Maybe you can pm me cos this is way off topic for most of the forumers.

Subcutaneous route is the safest if you are unfamiliar with the anatomy. Just hoping the localised effect will be sufficient. I'm not sure if your issue is a central or peripheral issue so just hope it works.

Interesting study on the systemic prp.. And we are assuming that increased plasma growth factors translate to a clinical result.

Not sure about peptides. In theory they could work but it has been around for some time (decades) and I've yet to come across high powered studies on this. There are physicians in neighbouring countries that are doing this. Legally? I'm not sure.

The bloodstream question is difficult to answer in a sentence . A pathogen can get stuck and dealt with by the defence systems your body has. To inject them straight into the bloodstream essentially allows them to board the highway to every part of the body.

You're right about the tourniquet. Give yourself some time to heal up. Make sure you didn't accidentally inject into your artery. You'd see a pulsatile kind of gushing instead rather than a constant flow. Also to reduce future bruising I suggest you apply pressure with gauze /tissue paper as soon as you see a bump forming and remove the tourniquet first.

 

[Rose57]

Ok, thank you! I will pm you.